From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #579 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, February 22 2008 Volume 2007 : Number 579 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: NJC: health care: political (Looooong) ["Mark Scott" ] Re: NJC health care [] Re: NJC: health care: political (Looooong) [mia _ ] Re: salutations ["Randy Remote" ] Re: "River" and other ramblings and ravings... (long) now smoke NJC [Eric] Healthcare UK NJC [Lucy Hone ] Night Of The Iguana [Eric Taylor ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:26:21 -0800 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: NJC: health care: political (Looooong) And if you have an existing medical condition (or conditions) and have a job that gives you health care benefits, you can feel a bit like a prisoner. You may hate your job but feel like you have to stay in it because you have to have that health insurance. Mark in Seattle - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Notaro" To: "Kay Ashley" Cc: Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 12:53 PM Subject: Re: NJC: health care: political (Looooong) > In addition, those so called affordable plans do not let you in with > an > existing medical condition unless you exlude it. > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 22:24:17 -0500 From: David Eoll Subject: salutations Hello, I'm a new list member. I sent this intro earlier in the week and didn't see it on the list, so I'm resending it. Sorry, if it ends up being duplicated. Been a Joni fan for about half of my life. I have all her records (yes, records) from the 60s and 70s, and have just recently acquired the remainder of her oeuvre on CD. Still digesting those, but so far, Night Ride Home seems to be the standout. Its been awhile, but I think my first introduction to Joni was Free Man in Paris, which I heard on the radio. I probably had heard Big Yellow Taxi and My Old Man, too, but didn't know who the artist was. Free Man was what grabbed me though, initially. I heard a steady diet of Blue and C&S, and occasionally Ladies, while I was in college. My favorite, though? I dunno, I seem to keep coming back to Seagull. I just love it. Anyway, I actually had a specific reason for joining the list. Last year sometime, I came across a lovely B&W photo on the internet of Joni and Judy Collins playing acoustic guitars together in what appeared to be a treehouse, or maybe it was just a wooden deck. I seem to remember it was for sale as a print or poster, or somesuch. Anyone seen this picture, and more to the point, anyone know where I can get a copy of it? I think I was researching the circumstances of Judy covering Joni's song Both Sides Now. So I've tried recreating that google quest, to no avail. I just can't seem to find the picture again. Best Regards, David Eoll Exeter, NH, USA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:19:16 -0800 From: Subject: Re: NJC health care Hi Bene, you wrote: > In Denmark, health care is as free as street lights and policing. We > pay for part of our dental bills, and noone really understands why. Do you mean that you pay for your health services through your taxes? If so, then it is one more tax amount and not free. > It is different, because in Denmark you are covered whether you want > it or not. So if you are too crazy to pay your bills or too stingy to > want insurance, you are still covered. I was speaking to the fact that it is not free whether the government provides it or the employer provides it. There are statistics thrown around here that something like 40 million people do not have health insurance. That round number doesn't alwasy break it down for people that several of those millions are rich and self-insured and several more million are here "off the books." The millions off the books walk into any emergency room and sometimes clinics for absolutely free health care because by law they cannot be turned away from most facilities. I have been to the emergency room many, many times the past few years for my parents and myself and you can see the people coming to the emergency room every time for any kind of treatment, usually sick babies and diaper rash. In addition to paying part of the insurance through our employers, we also in many states, including California pay for MediCal which is insurance that is available if you are below a certain income and do not have health insurance. I have used, as have some friends used, MediCal when we didn't have the income or insurance coverage. Additionally there are some private hospitals, usually Catholic, who have funds set aside for paying for any and all treatment for people with no insurance and not a lot of money. Another friend had extensive surgery at one of these hospitals (which is top rated) and was not charged a penny. > You know I am not sure what is better, public or private health care. > I definitely see the advantage of everyone being covered as in > Denmark, but also the disadvantages of there not being a choice (as in > Denmark). In Denmark, they have been cutting down on health care for > decades, and it has been deteriorating a lot. Nowadays there are > private hospitals, so if someone has good insurance they dont't need > to wait in line to get treated. I think most people feel it's a defeat > for the welfare system and also unjust that those how can afford it > get treated before other people. Before the private hospitals there > was no choice, today there is - for the rich. Well, and we ae quite > rich here! I think that countries like Denmark, Canada, U.K., etc.. are different in that there is not the population of the U.S. (300+ million) and in those countries the people are accustomed to their system. All of that probably makes those systems somewhat more manageable. In contrast, if our system in the U.S. is taken over by the government it will turn a lot on its end and not for the good of all, I am afraid. Pur standards will be lowered by many factors. We don't have private hospitals that are exclusively for the rich. I have known poor people who have been treated at our top private hospitals in SoCal. Some very elite doctors here sometimes do become picky about accepting certain kinds of insurance but for the most part they do not discriminate. I have a very low-cost plan and yet I was provided with one of the top 5 ortho surgeons in the country when I recently injured my arm. > My friend from the US is very ill, but lives > in constant fear of doing something that will make the lawyers from > his health insurance suspect that he is actually well and deceiving > them, because he could lose his income and end up in the gutter, > pratically. The idea that it is up to some lawyer in the private > sector appals me. But then, here, he might be persecuted by the social > services... I'm just saying that the system you've got in your country > will always seem like the right one, even if you complain about it. Hmm, I think there is more to your friend's story than is being told. It would probably be best if he just goes on the government disability (which pays less, but there may not be as much hassle from investigators trying to catch you out (theorectically) surfing or racing cars when you are supposed to be disabled!). I also know several people on government disability and they are never afraid they are going to lose their benefits. But some private disability insurance carriers can be snarky. Best to get a lawyer to get them off his back, perhaps! > Well, in Demark as I said the health care system has been > deteriorating for some time, but it used to be very good. I thought it > was very bad in England, but then they have a lot of poor people. I > believe France has the best health care system in the world, and I > believe it is mostly publicly funded. My mother was treated there, and > the standards were very high. Good to know that France has it together! A friend's daughter got very ill away at school in England, but her school here had already covered her for the private insurance and she had very good treatment there. > But again, it's a question of ideology. Say a survey would reveal that > the US had the shortest waiting times, highest availability etc. I > would probably still not really believe the result because I'd be > thinking that this is because a few rich people get treated very fast > but the very poor don't get treated at all. If Denmark came in first > people in the US would think, yes, everyone gets treated but at a > lower standard... Which one do you want? Here is what I fear. Our government could conceivable start denying certain, often live-saving treatment to smokers, the obese, the addicted, etc. as I am now reading is happening in some of the countries that have government run health care. What next? So I end up in a government run nursing home in my old age and then they decide on euthanizing me because I am old, smoked, etc. and am an economic burden on the system. I really don't think I am being so hyperbolic here. Let us try to control our care the best we can as individuals. > Ultimately the US system seems to me to be based on the American > dream: those who want to fend for themselves get what they want, the > others don't deserve it. No, I think that is sort of a cliche. As many people as may be selfish in their outlook here, there are far more who really do care about others and donate their time, money and other resources to help those who are not as fortunate. I think you may be surprised if you researched the actual statistics on the level of charity given by people in the U.S. > It's like the death penalty: if you've got it in your state you will > be likely to think that it is not entirely bad, if like me you live in > a country where we don't have it, contries that do seem to be living > in the middle ages. Compeletley barbaric and unenlightened. I agree - it is part of one's culture and custom. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:49:41 -0600 From: mia _ Subject: Re: NJC: health care: political (Looooong) <> And, even if you do disclose your pre-existing conditions and try to exclude them from coverage, many companies still don't take you on. Plus, if you're healthy now and get sick later, they don't have to renew your policy. I've not only seen this happen with individuals, but also with small businesses. One of my ex-boyfriends became very sick with MS and decided to leave his employer so his coworkers could at least keep their insurance. Health care costs are completely out of control. It's more of a gamble now than ever to start up a small business (unless you have a spouse to fall back on for coverage). In my opinion, the health care pitfalls in the U.S. stifles entrepreneurship in this country. How very un-American, if you ask me. Mia - 20+ years in the industry - stuck working there for the health insurance :( Send _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail.-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:08:59 -0800 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: salutations Hi David-I don't recall seeing your earlier posting-but welcome to Joniville- Hopefully someone knows about the Judy/Joni pic. My brother lives in NH- (Etna). Never been but hope to go! RR From: "David Eoll" > Hello, I'm a new list member. I sent this intro earlier in the week and > didn't see it on the list, so I'm resending it. I came across a lovely B&W > photo on the internet of Joni and Judy Collins playing acoustic guitars > together in what appeared to be a treehouse, or maybe it was just a wooden > deck. I seem to remember it was for sale as a print or poster, or > somesuch. Anyone seen this picture, and more to the point, anyone know > where I can get a copy of it? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 02:09:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Eric Taylor Subject: Re: "River" and other ramblings and ravings... (long) now smoke NJC Kay Ashley contributed in part~ >>I'm less thrilled by Luciana Souza's take on Amelia. I have her "Brazilian Duos" CD, which is great. Comparing the two recordings, I have to say that I wish they had chosen a more upbeat song for her to interpret. I feel that her take on "Amelia" is a bit lazy, predictable, and too diaphanous or something. No drama to it. I'd love to hear her do a bossa nova take on "Free Man in Paris" or something like that, where there is more rapid wordplay, and more opportunity to show off her vocal chops.<< i agree & disagree if that is even possible. While i increasingly love Luciana's hypnotic take on Amelia i would much rather be hearing her singing The Dry Cleaner From Des Moines..... >>Joni's new version of "Tea Leaf" is interesting -- revisiting that song must be her musical farewell to her mother -- but the deterioration of her voice does bother me here, whereas in most of her work of the past 15 years, I'm able to hear her voice as a fine bottle of aged port wine (usually tawny). I find it so funny (funny funny and funny strange) that Joni is so cranky about people saying that smoking has changed her voice (I just read the recent Mojo article). It's so bloody *obvious* that it has changed her voice. I think that her denial about the smoking being a factor is perplexing, but I guess it's not surprising -- if one smokes like that, one is certainly a nicotine addict, and denial is the name of the addiction game.<< O Kay, so you don't GET real jazz singing. That's OK, few do! But it really pisses me off that everyone harps on Joni CONSTANTLY for enjoying the very Breath Of The Great Spirit which she rightly calls "a grounding herb." The non-smoking nazis which originated in California some 20 years ago & has swept the world with hypocritical BLAME makes me want to blow tobacco just to purify the endless carbon we spew with our cars & lightbulbs. The REAL factor in Joni's voice is that she is pushing 70 god damn it! Do fans actually expect her to sound the same 40 years later??? I have been Joni's biggest fan since Blue was released but personally prefer her latest music & particularly her voice. SHINE is Joni at her best, musically & vocally! & Tea Leaf Prophecy on R:TJL is Billy-esque! (i find it interesting that they left out "study war no more.) Nothing personal, Kay, but your post makes me want to chain smoke! Of course, 'Natural' Native American Spirit ultralight.... ;~D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 07:50:26 +0000 From: Lucy Hone Subject: Healthcare UK NJC Chiming in here, late and in haste. Well said Les and Bene, and hurrah for Bob Mullers comment too. Here is one case study that I think underlines a case for our health care system. My very good friend Jane has a revolting and debilitating cancer of the flesh. She has lost most of her right side chest wall, and half the flesh round the right side of her back. Currently it is eating its way up and around her neck and jaw. Jane is 43 and the mother of two girls, aged 16 and 14 who I have known from before they were conceived.. In the 10 years this monster has been in her life she has had A mastectomy, as that is where the cancer first arose, plus re-build of breast area including replacing her nipple, radiation therapy and chemo lasting 12 months. Following on from that when it all came back in her rebuilt breast she has had a second mastectomy and site excision to clear the area, second chemo and radiation. There have been multiple excisions of other sites on her bod resulting in more radiation. Following on from that when it was discovered she is one of only about 2 or 3 people with this particularly nasty cancer certainly in Europe, she has has access to the very best and newest forms of treatment including Herceptin and other experimental monocolnal antibody treatments as her cancer is mutating. The estimates for her care costs must run into about #300,000 easily. Jane has no insurance, has been deserted by her husband and was left with no support . She worked hard when she was well but can no longer work. She lives on benefits now, and remains hugely debilitated physically but the woman I most admire in this world. And the cost to her of this care and support? ZERO. She paid her National Insurance stamp, but it would not have mattered if she never had paid.. treatment is not about being rich when you have the NHS, it is your right... there are a few things I would like to change about the impact of the EEU on our health system, I would also like the money put into nurses, cleaners who work for the hospitals and not private companies, and more beds; than into management and sub committees, who run up fat cat expense bills.... but our health service is very very good. Jane is one expample but even on a GP basis we only pay for prescriptions and where it is cheaper to buy generic medicines that will cost less than the prescription charge, that is what we do (at least in our surgery). HEalth insurance paid privately has a ceiling and so many caveats and preclusions that you are not automatically covered and it would be foolish to believe that you were. Here if you are run over in the street the ambulance service will come and get you and be concerned about your welfare, not whether they are going to get paid by your insurance company. Anyway I hope that this debate can open people's eyes rather than result in a constantly defensive position of "we are best". those who cannot pay should not be denied the same treatment. The 11.4% that is taken from my pay pack before I see it does not equate just for medical help it also covers unemployment and sickness benefits should I be unlucky enough to be in that position. That is my 2 pence worth Lucy in the UK P.S. anyone for UK FEST that has not already signed up? contact me. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 02:44:22 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Eric Taylor Subject: Night Of The Iguana Today i listened to NOTI for perhaps the 200th time & it occurred to me that this song is the first song Joni has done like this since Don Juan's Reckless Daughter. Actually the album i would most compare SHINE to is DJRD on many levels. The stunning piano. The shocking lyrics. The stark landscape. but may i say that SHINE is much more important & even more wonderful than DJRD! Perhaps ten years from now fans will figure this out..... ET ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #579 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------