From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #481 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, November 29 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 481 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Re: What do ya'll think of this?, njc [sweetbirdur ] Re: RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc [sweetbirdur ] RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc [Danilo Monno ] NJC 670 [Monika Bogdanowicz ] Re: What do ya'll think of this?, njc ["Jamie's Box of Paints" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:23:51 -0600 From: sweetbirdur Subject: Re: Re: What do ya'll think of this?, njc On Nov 29, 2007, at 9:02:37 AM, ajfashion@att.net wrote: The first line of that essay is ripped off from Robert Frost, who wrote "The best way out is always through." What Frost says is true, but I don't think he meant starting a war by lying about weapons of mass destruction and preying on the fears of a semi-hysterical country, still reeling from the attacks on 9/11. Aleda, still in Saigon Thanks for spotting this Aleda. Excellent catch! I'm really sad to hear about your father. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:20:28 -0600 From: sweetbirdur Subject: Re: Re: NJC - Various On Nov 29, 2007, at 9:53:05 AM, Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: I see that Laura solicited opinions re a provocative essay, apparently written about a year ago (?). Speaking from what I believe is a moderate perspective, I would say that this post is approximately as far right in its tone and content as much of the politics on this list are to the left. My main objection to the post - and it is a serious one - is that its tone (and perhaps specific content - I need to scrutinize the wording more carefully) seems to be anti-Muslim. I wish he had chosen his words more carefully - he seems to realize that the concept of terrorism is the main issue, and in citing Hitler, he acknowledges that evil is not the sole possession of any one group. I agree with the author about the basic math - it does not matter that 95% of Muslims are peaceful or disapprove of terrorism if 95% of all current terrorists are Muslim (and the 5% of Muslims who are terrorists are holding the other 95% of Muslims hostage and threatening the rest of us). I also agree that in many cases we need to go through a difficulty in order to get out of it. Kind of Thomas Paine - like in its simple way, but simple is not necessarily to be scorned. (On a political level, Joni didn't let Kipling's political incorrectness stop her from covering his simple - and much disdained in intellectual circles, I believe - poem as the closer on Shine). In that respect, it may be that Iraqis and their Arab and Muslim brethren may be going through what they need to go through in order to see the light. By seeing American soldiers behaving for the greatest part the way human beings should (and representing the courage to stand up to evil to defend the liberty that we have earned), the Iraqis may be beginning to see terrorism as the real enemy. I may be dreaming, but I hope so. This is not a one-year process; in the best case it will take time - quite a lot of it. I believe that Australia knows this, and will not run away from America going forward, any more than France or Germany or England have or will, notwithstanding the rhetoric, which has toned down quite a bit recently. That said, I am very disappointed in the way in which the Bush administration has conducted the whole Iraq affair, from the disingenuous way in which it sold the effort (their reasons were listed in nearly reverse order of importance, in an effort to sell them, IMO) to the remarkably short-sighted execution of the effort, particularly in the immediate aftermath of the invasion, but also in the several years following. Rumsfeld got it wrong, and Bush listened to him. Let our little lights shine. Bobsart Thanks Bob! Great to hear your views. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:04:31 -0600 From: sweetbirdur Subject: Re: RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:17:35 AM, "Ross, Les" wrote: .i really don't have time for this but feel compelled to reply. Well, first off it's irritating to me to read this as it is intended to instill fear and fear as we know is the mother of violence. So I'm never likely to get on board with anything of value being written when fear is the motivating and ultimately blinding component. I take issue with the notion that 'position, success and freedom' as being the reason why the US is the focus of terrorist intent. One need only recognise (and to do so in itself is an issue) the US's 'influence' in politically unstable parts of the world. Questioning not least why they end up being unstable in the first place. England does not have more mosques than churches. That's just absurd. And all that nonsense about disapearing states, France, Spain and the UK. Well, again, this only serves to underwrite the author's scaremongering intent and is an insulting and fatuous load of bo##ocks. Regardless of creed, the population of the world is hell bent on living a peaceful life. I use that expression advisedly. I do believe that a complacency exists which at its heart is a good thing. I do believe, however, that those so disposed to terror (and I include in that group the author and corporate greed advocates) are exploiting that complacency to instil fear and allow national and economic stratification to manifest diversion from their cynical agendas. I think the movie Lions for Lambs made a faltering attempt in part to address this in an entertainment form. But, whatever, I'm very far from being an informed opinion on this topic. I do however despise what this person wrote. Blah blah blah blah blah. Hugs Lesbert I love you Les. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Laura ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:17:53 -0600 From: Cindy Vickery Subject: RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc Laura - Were you *trying* to be inflammatory? You've succeeded, no matter your intent. As for my opinion: The essay just makes me sad, for so so many reasons. cindy << My dad, a retired AF Lt. Colonel, recently send this to me (below). I would like to hear your opinion about this essay.>> _________________________________________________________________ You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the im Initiative now. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGLM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:19:21 -0600 From: sweetbirdur Subject: Re: Re: What do ya'll think of this?, njc On Nov 29, 2007, at 9:00:16 AM, Jamie's Box of Paints wrote: oh my god... I\m not at all sure how to reply to this post... as a muslim growing up in Malaysia (which has equal rights for women, (limited) freedom of speech (as long as it wasn't against the govt, which is non-secular, or religions (plural, there are at least 3 major religions in Malaysia but over 50% of the country is Muslim)) you could say what you liked. As a former British colony, they still have the death penalty for drug trafficking and still is the thorn in America's side politically and economically (malaysia's largest export is rubber and tin). I find statements like what the Lt Colonel saying closed minded and inflammatory as it preys on people's fears of the unknown, fear of the outsider. I'm not sure if he can claim that France is 20% Muslim... Paris *perhaps* has a large Muslim community but also*perhaps* if you count it's departments (foreign colonies, or former colonies)... Britain? More mosques than churches? This is possible... the Church of England keep on selling their churches and de-consecrating them so people can convert them to houses.... nothing to do with muslims building mosques... Has this person ever been to a mosque? When not in prayer time, it is usually one of the most peaceful and serene places to be, with exquisite decorations and beautiful scriptures around the place... Even in prayer time, it's filled with, to me, a beautiful sound... not that I understand it all, to my shame.... It would seem to me this was written to make people fear the 'otherness' of muslims. yes, there can be a word or two said about the atrocities of war. I'm sure that I could but Ihave 3 mins left at this cafe and I'd probably save it for later.... Something about Israel/Palestine too, just to drop that bombshell in there... But more later when I have tome to mull(ah) this over.... Jamie Zooby Thanks Jamie. I really appreciate your insight. Makes me think of my friend Olcay who is Muslim and from Turkey. She is like a Mosque... beautiful and peaceful. When you go to the Mosque, please say a prayer for me. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:31:30 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: NJC - Various An important and true point. I don't know if you've seen "No End In Sight" which just got released on DVD but I highly recommend it. It's a simple timeline of activities in the Iraq debacle, told by the leaders who were part of it (at least the ones that would talk to the filmmaker). I found it fascinating and ultimately maddening and sad. And like you say, Bush wasn't the architect, he just got LOTS of bad advice and allowed others with their own agenda to control things. All that being said, I don't absolve him to be sure - Presidents have to take responsibility for things that happen on their watch. In the current upcoming elections I'm very interested in the people who will be surrounding our new President. Not always easy information to get but very important. Bob NP: Elvis Costello, "The Delivery Man" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:27:34 -0600 From: sweetbirdur Subject: Re: RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc On Nov 29, 2007, at 8:50:51 AM, Danilo Monno wrote: Let me tell you, the most serious threat to their existence your country and the whole world are facing is George W. Bush. It's unbelievable that someone still makes a matter of religion of the attacks of 9/11. You should care about your government, first. It's affecting the world. So what about the unfound weapons of mass destruction? Isn't it terrorism as well? You re-elected Bush who lied about that, when you were ready to impeach Clinton who lied about the Lewinsky affaire. Weird Americans... Danilo Hi Danilo, Definitely. You got me laughing by saying, "Weird Americans"... true but funny. I can't remember where you are from; please tell me. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:38:10 -0800 (PST) From: Rian Afriadi Subject: Re: A Reply To The Only and The Most Disgusting Post I Have Ever Read on JMDL. njc Emz wrote: >>>> Many people over here (USA) are terribly fearful. Fearful of living somewhere they interpret as being unsafe and unsecure. Fact is, the American existence has always been somewhat unsafe and unsecure for many people. But when it comes in the form of attacks by people from other countries and happens on our soil, people just go nuts. More 9-11 attacks are just not permissable. ++++++ All i can say is : the fear that you (Americans) feel is caused by your (American) policies towards other nations past these decades/centuries. The essay told us that the fear that you feel is caused by some poor people from poor and isolated country ENVY Americans position, success, and freedoms. NONSENSE! Men can talk so loud and you call them hero, while when women do the same you call them bitches. A very small number of Muslims (who actually did not follow the teaching of Muhammad) attacked USA, and that essay called all of us terrorists. What about the Christians? Some Christian countries, under the slogan Gold, Gospel, and Glory ripped off Indians land, murdered them, enslaved the Africans, colonialized Africa and Asia, murdered african and asian, almost genocided the aborigines, murdered the Mayans, the Incas, hunted the Jews for millennias... That was not just done by some people, but by many countries, and even the biggest church... History. Can I say that all Christians are terrorists? NO! I know that hate is not what Jesus preached about. Christian is not about genocide, Jews-hunting, and bloodsheds. Those bloodsheds were just some people who can not control their animal urges. So please, do not mix the word Terrorist and Muslim into a single phrase Muslim Terrorists. Islam does not teach terrorism. You can prove it by reading our Holy Scripture. I dare you. One more thing. This is a fact. Muslims do not hate Americans. (Indonesians even love Americans, a fact) (yes we do!). What we do NOT like is the policies your governments (please note: i wrote governmentS, not just government) (and some shallow-minded person like the writer of that essay) Oh, peace be upon the worshipper of Abraham's God... Rian. - --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:48:11 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: A Reply To The Only and The Most Disgusting Post I Have Ever Read on JMDL. njc Rian, I think the VAST majority of people on this list understand and agree with you. I'd toast you, but it's too early in the morning to drink. Also, I'm a bit puzzled about why that essay was posted here in the first place. Aleda - -------------- Original message from Rian Afriadi : -------------- > Emz wrote: > >>>> > > Many people over here (USA) are terribly fearful. Fearful of living > > somewhere they interpret as being unsafe and unsecure. > > > > Fact is, the American existence has always been somewhat unsafe and > > unsecure for many people. But when it comes in the form of attacks by > > people from other countries and happens on our soil, people just go > > nuts. > > More 9-11 attacks are just not permissable. > > ++++++ > All i can say is : the fear that you (Americans) feel is caused by your > (American) policies towards other nations past these decades/centuries. > > The essay told us that the fear that you feel is caused by some poor people > from poor and isolated country ENVY Americans position, success, and freedoms. > NONSENSE! > > Men can talk so loud and you call them hero, while when women do the same you > call them bitches. > A very small number of Muslims (who actually did not follow the teaching of > Muhammad) attacked USA, and that essay called all of us terrorists. > > What about the Christians? Some Christian countries, under the slogan Gold, > Gospel, and Glory ripped off Indians land, murdered them, enslaved the > Africans, colonialized Africa and Asia, murdered african and asian, almost > genocided the aborigines, murdered the Mayans, the Incas, hunted the Jews for > millennias... > > That was not just done by some people, but by many countries, and even the > biggest church... History. > > Can I say that all Christians are terrorists? > NO! I know that hate is not what Jesus preached about. Christian is not about > genocide, Jews-hunting, and bloodsheds. Those bloodsheds were just some people > who can not control their animal urges. > > So please, do not mix the word Terrorist and Muslim into a single phrase > Muslim Terrorists. Islam does not teach terrorism. You can prove it by reading > our Holy Scripture. I dare you. > > One more thing. This is a fact. Muslims do not hate Americans. (Indonesians > even love Americans, a fact) (yes we do!). What we do NOT like is the policies > your governments (please note: i wrote governmentS, not just government) > (and some shallow-minded person like the writer of that essay) > > Oh, peace be upon the worshipper of Abraham's God... > > Rian. > > > > --------------------------------- > Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:46:28 -0000 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc Laura can speak for herself but I don't think it was laura's intent to be inflamatory. Rather to draw our attention to and be aware that such arguments as those being posited in Chong's essay are out there and are have currency in the millieu wherein action on a national and global scale is being taken. It's important to divorce messenger from message. It made me sick to my stomach and it aint a thrilling way to start the day but there it is. Doubtless as the world awaits the decision of the voter body in the US (and yes we do - do you for the rest of us?) this forum will once again be inundated with much that is sad and devoid of promise and Joni-content. Job-Les. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Vickery Sent: 29 November 2007 15:18 To: sweetbirdur; joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc Laura - Were you *trying* to be inflammatory? You've succeeded, no matter your intent. As for my opinion: The essay just makes me sad, for so so many reasons. cindy << My dad, a retired AF Lt. Colonel, recently send this to me (below). I would like to hear your opinion about this essay.>> _________________________________________________________________ You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the im Initiative now. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGLM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:55:37 +0100 From: Danilo Monno Subject: RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc I know, Jerry. I was sarcastic and willing to provoke your reaction. > Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:22:12 -0500 > Subject: Re: What do ya'll think of this?, njc > From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu > To: vaniglio@hotmail.com; sweetbirdur@aol.com; joni@smoe.org > > SOME Americans, Danilo, only some. More Americans voted for Gore than for > Bush. > > Jerry > > > > Let me tell you, the most serious threat to their existence your country and > > the whole world are facing is George W. Bush. > > > > It's unbelievable that someone still makes a matter of religion of the attacks > > of 9/11. You should care about your government, first. It's affecting the > > world. > > > > So what about the unfound weapons of mass destruction? Isn't it terrorism as > > well? > > You re-elected Bush who lied about that, when you were ready to impeach > > Clinton who lied about the Lewinsky affaire. > > Weird Americans... > > > > Danilo > > > > > >> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:36:05 -0600 > >> Subject: What do ya'll think of this?, njc > >> From: sweetbirdur@aol.com > >> To: joni@smoe.org > >> > >> Hi Jonilistas, > >> > >> > >> My dad, a retired AF Lt. Colonel, recently send this to me (below). I > >> would like to hear your opinion about this essay. > >> > >> > >> Love and appreciation, > >> Laura > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> If you would like to see who this writer is, go to this Air Force web > >> site and look him up: > >> http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5000 > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA : A different spin on Iraq war. > >> > >> > >> > >> This WAR is for REAL! > >> > >> > >> > >> Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired > >> > >> > >> > >> To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our > >> country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we > >> know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes > >> WWII) > >> > >> > >> > >> The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are > >> very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer > >> who realize what losing really means. > >> > >> > >> > >> First, let's examine a few basics > >> > >> > >> > >> 1. When did the threat to us start > >> > >> > >> > >> Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United > >> States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the > >> following attacks on us: > >> * Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979; > >> * Beirut , Lebanon Embassy 1983; > >> * Beirut , Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983; > >> * Lockerbie , Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988; > >> * First New York World Trade Center attack 1993; > >> * Dhahran , Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996; > >> * Nairobi , Kenya US Embassy 1998; > >> * Dares Salaam , Tanzania US Embassy 1998; > >> * A! den, Yemen USS Cole 2000; > >> * New York World Trade Center 2001;* Pentagon 2001. > >> > >> > >> > >> (Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 > >> terrorist attacks worldwide). > >> > >> > >> > >> 2. Why were we attacked? > >> > >> > >> > >> Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks > >> happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush > >> 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or > >> Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or > >> their immediate predecessor, President Ford. > >> > >> > >> > >> 3. Who were the attackers? > >> > >> > >> > >> In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims > >> > >> > >> > >> 4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%. > >> > >> > >> > >> 5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful? > >> > >> > >> > >> Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the > >> predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under > >> the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian (?)), that > >> made no difference. You either went along with the ad ministration or > >> you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by > >> the Nazis for political reasons (including > >> 7,000 Polish priests). > >> > >> > >> > >> (seehttp://www.Nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm) > >> > >> > >> > >> Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as > >> the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom > >> heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler > >> kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing > >> anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over > >> the world - German, Christian or any others. > >> > >> > >> > >> Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US , but > >> kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, British, French > >> or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans > >> were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many > >> peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the > >> terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- > >> by their own pronouncements > >> -- killing all of us 'infidels.' I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. > >> What would you do if the choice was shut up or die? > >> > >> > >> > >> 6. So who are we at war with? > >> > >> > >> > >> There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than > >> the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid > >> verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win > >> if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting. > >> > >> > >> > >> So with that background, now to the two major questions: > >> > >> > >> > >> 1 Can we lose this war? > >> > >> > >> > >> 2 What does losing really mean? > >> > >> > >> > >> If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions: > >> > >> > >> > >> We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the > >> major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the > >> answer to the second question - What does losing mean? > >> > >> > >> > >> It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means > >> hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our > >> business, like post-Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can > >> get. > >> > >> > >> > >> What losing really means is > >> > >> > >> > >> We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks > >> will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they > >> want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they > >> would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, > >> over the past 18 years. The plan was, clearly, for terrorists to > >> attack us until we were neutered and submissive to them. > >> > >> > >> > >> We would, of course, have no future support from other nations, for > >> fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see; we are > >> impotent and cannot help them. > >> > >> > >> > >> They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It > >> will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain > >> hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to > >> withdraw its troops from Iraq Spain did it because the Muslim > >> terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. > >> Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished. > >> > >> > >> > >> The next will probably be France Our one hope on France is that they > >> might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished > >> too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. > >> However, it may already be too late for France France is already 20% > >> Muslim and fading fast! > >> > >> > >> > >> Without our support Great Britain will go too. Recently I read that > >> there are more mosques in England than churches. > >> > >> > >> > >> If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life > >> will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal > >> with us if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the > >> Muslim terrorists, how could anyone else? > >> > >> > >> > >> The radical Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and > >> therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better > >> know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost. > >> > >> > >> > >> Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. > >> Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put > >> 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take > >> that 100% effort to win. > >> > >> > >> > >> So, how can we lose the war? > >> > >> > >> > >> Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by 'imploding.' That > >> is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their > >> purpose, and really digging in and lending full support to the war > >> effort. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we > >> continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win! > >> > >> > >> > >> Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the > >> life and death seriousness of this situation. > >> > >> > >> > >> President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. > >> Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men > >> between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow > >> profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? > >> This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of > >> the civil rights we have become accustomed. We had better be prepared > >> to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly > >> lose all of them permanently. > >> > >> > >> > >> And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of > >> civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the > >> victory and in fact added many more since then. > >> > >> > >> > >> Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him? > >> > >> > >> > >> No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our > >> Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict > >> and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to > >> war. Get them out of your head. > >> > >> > >> > >> Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the > >> Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us > >> lose. > >> > >> > >> > >> I think some actually do, I hasten to add that this isn't because they > >> are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing > >> means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy > >> that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it > >> does great damage to our cause. > >> > >> > >> > >> Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media > >> regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies > >> best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the > >> treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our > >> military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months > >> ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their > >> hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own > >> people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein. ! > >> > >> > >> > >> And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed > >> 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the > >> same type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and > >> dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq . And still > >> more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing videos > >> to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American > >> prisoners they held. > >> > >> > >> > >> Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several > >> days have thought and talked about nothing else but the 'humiliating' > >> of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their > >> charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but > >> 'humiliating' them. > >> > >> > >> > >> Can they be for real? > >> > >> > >> > >> The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the > >> Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of > >> comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are > >> fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous > >> results of losing this war, nothing can. > >> > >> > >> > >> To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this > >> prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome > >> burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. > >> Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. > >> Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media > >> people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely > >> oblivious to the magnitude of the situation we are in and into which > >> the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years. > >> > >> > >> > >> These people are a serious and dangerous liability to the war effort. > >> We must take note of who they are and get them out of office. > >> Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! > >> That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United States , > >> but throughout the world. We are the last bastion of defense. > >> > >> > >> > >> We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge > >> is valid. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, > >> powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those > >> who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can > >> defeat anything bad in the world! We can't! > >> > >> > >> > >> If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, > >> and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated. > >> > >> > >> > >> And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow > >> freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of > >> the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status > >> or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way > >> that contributes to the good of the world. > >> > >> > >> > >> This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war > >> or we will be equated in the history books to the self- inflicted fall > >> of the Roman Empire If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow > >> history books to be written or read. > >> > >> > >> > >> If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims > >> take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to > >> increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach > >> little by little, on the established French traditions. > >> > >> > >> > >> The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or > >> should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them > >> from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar? > >> > >> > >> > >> Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some > >> external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, > >> politically correct piece by politically correct piece. > >> > >> > >> > >> And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, > >> worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even > >> to themselves, once they are in power. > >> > >> > >> > >> Muslims have universally shown that when they have taken over, they > >> then start brutally killing each other over whom will be the few who > >> control the masses > >> > >> > >> > >> What is happening in Iraq is a good example. Will we ever stop hearing > >> from the politically correct, about the 'peaceful Muslims'? > >> > >> > >> > >> I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are > >> united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now, after the > >> election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the > >> critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It > >> is your future we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve > >> it. I reiterate. A national election is months away. > >> > >> > >> > >> After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, > >> but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world. > >> Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that > >> includes the Politicians and media of our country and the free world! > >> > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Scarica GRATIS 30 emoticon per Messenger! > > http://www.emoticons-livemessenger.com/pages/msnit/index.htm > > _________________________________________________________________ Conosci Doretta? Contattala, h ora su Messenger! http://www.doretta82.it/banner/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:45:56 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc > On Nov 29, 2007, at 8:50:51 AM, Danilo Monno wrote: > Let me tell you, the most serious threat to their existence your country and > the whole world are facing is George W. Bush. > > It's unbelievable that someone still makes a matter of religion of the attacks > of 9/11. You should care about your government, first. It's affecting the > world. > > So what about the unfound weapons of mass destruction? Isn't it terrorism as > well? > You re-elected Bush who lied about that, when you were ready to impeach > Clinton who lied about the Lewinsky affaire. > Weird Americans... > > Danilo Just for the record, Danilo, "I" didn't re-elect Bush and am still mourning the apparent destruction of our formerly three-branched government. The politicalization of our Supreme Court was a very dark moment in American history. - --Aleda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:56:30 +0100 From: Danilo Monno Subject: RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc I'm Italian. Half proud of being.... Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:27:34 -0600 Subject: Re: RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc From: sweetbirdur@aol.com To: vaniglio@hotmail.com CC: joni@smoe.org On Nov 29, 2007, at 8:50:51 AM, Danilo Monno wrote: Let me tell you, the most serious threat to their existence your country and the whole world are facing is George W. Bush.It's unbelievable that someone still makes a matter of religion of the attacks of 9/11. You should care about your government, first. It's affecting the world. So what about the unfound weapons of mass destruction? Isn't it terrorism as well? You re-elected Bush who lied about that, when you were ready to impeach Clinton who lied about the Lewinsky affaire. Weird Americans... Danilo Hi Danilo, Definitely. You got me laughing by saying, "Weird Americans"... true but funny. I can't remember where you are from; please tell me.Love,Laura _________________________________________________________________ Conosci Doretta? Contattala, h ora su Messenger! http://www.doretta82.it/banner/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:05:31 -0800 (PST) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: Re: River (Joni... beautifully covered by Cary Cooper) You let me down Bob. I was just getting my resume out....... -Monika Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: OK, I have to come clean - "I" am actually BobMuller Inc, LLC. We are a Joni Mitchell-related franchise. There are currently 10 of us on staff & we are looking to add 2 more employees in 2008 as this year has been so big in Joni-related business. Of course, the above is not true. - --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:17:44 -0800 (PST) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: Re: Nice blog post about Woodstock Thanks for posting that. It was indeed a good read. Even though Joni says a "child of God" and sings about getting ourselves back to the garden, I never really thought about any sort of religious undertones too much. I suppose that's one of the many, great features of Joni's music. You can take from it what you want. -Monika Bob Muller wrote: http://theartistsvoice.blogspot.com/2007/11/some-folk-music-that-touched-me.html Bob NP: Joni, "Me & My Uncle" - --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. - --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:23:12 -0800 (PST) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: DJRD live? Since (and before) DJRD came out, has Joni performed any of those tracks live? I have a '76 recording where she does a Coyote/DJRD medley of sorts but I was wondering if she had every performed anything else from the album later on? Just curious. -Monika - --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:21:21 -0800 (PST) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: NJC 670 [670] One need not be a Chamber - to be Haunted - One need not be a House - The Brain has Corridors - surpassing Material Place - Far safer, of a Midnight Meeting External Ghost Than its interior Confronting - That Cooler Host. Far Safer, through an Abbey gallop, The Stones a'chase - Than Unarmed, one's a'self encounter - In lonesome Place - Ourself behind ourself, concealed - Should startle most - Assassin hid in our Apartment Be Horror's least. The Body - borrows a Revolver - He bolts the Door - O'erlooking a superior spectre - Or More - -Emily Dickinson - ---------------------------------------------- I really like this poem and just felt like sharing it. I particularly like the first two lines the best. -M - --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:06:48 +0000 From: "Jamie's Box of Paints" Subject: Re: What do ya'll think of this?, njc Let's not forget the purpose of this writer was to make us forget why 'we' were in this war. Not to fight terrorism, not to fight Muslims, not for human rights but to protect their interest in the great god, oil. On 29/11/2007, sweetbirdur wrote: > On Nov 29, 2007, at 9:00:16 AM, Jamie's Box of Paints > > wrote: > oh my god... > > I\m not at all sure how to reply to this post... as a muslim growing > up in Malaysia (which has equal rights for women, (limited) freedom of > speech (as long as it wasn't against the govt, which is non-secular, > or religions (plural, there are at least 3 major religions in Malaysia > but over 50% of the country is Muslim)) you could say what you liked. > As a former British colony, they still have the death penalty for drug > trafficking and still is the thorn in America's side politically and > economically (malaysia's largest export is rubber and tin). > > I find statements like what the Lt Colonel saying closed minded and > inflammatory as it preys on people's fears of the unknown, fear of the > outsider. I'm not sure if he can claim that France is 20% Muslim... > Paris *perhaps* has a large Muslim community but also*perhaps* if you > count it's departments (foreign colonies, or former colonies)... > > Britain? More mosques than churches? This is possible... the Church of > England keep on selling their churches and de-consecrating them so > people can convert them to houses.... nothing to do with muslims > building mosques... > > Has this person ever been to a mosque? When not in prayer time, it is > usually one of the most peaceful and serene places to be, with > exquisite decorations and beautiful scriptures around the place... > Even in prayer time, it's filled with, to me, a beautiful sound... not > that I understand it all, to my shame.... > > It would seem to me this was written to make people fear the > 'otherness' of muslims. yes, there can be a word or two said about the > atrocities of war. I'm sure that I could but Ihave 3 mins left at this > cafe and I'd probably save it for later.... Something about > Israel/Palestine too, just to drop that bombshell in there... But more > later when I have tome to mull(ah) this over.... > > Jamie Zooby > > > Thanks Jamie. I really appreciate your insight. Makes me think of my > friend > Olcay who is Muslim and from Turkey. She is like a Mosque... beautiful and > peaceful. When you go to the Mosque, please say a prayer for me. > > Love, > Laura > - -- I am a lonely Painter I live in a Box of Paints I'm frightened by the devil But I'm drawn to those ones that 'aint afraid... Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at http://uk.voicespro.com/jamie.zubairi1 acting CV and showreel at http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 http://www.jamiezubairi.co.uk Facebook me! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:39:11 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: A Reply To The Only and The Most Disgusting Post I Have Ever Read on JMDL. njc - --- Rian Afriadi wrote: > All i can say is : the fear that you (Americans) feel is caused by > your (American) policies towards other nations past these > decades/centuries. I largely agree! I did not want to defend the position of Chong's essay, but to (try to) expain why that kind of thinking travels far and carries weight in this country. A scared animal can be a dangerous animal. And we are one big, scared heavily armed mofo of an animal. One big reason I choose Barack Obama for Pres. is that he shows the most promise of trying to reach out as equal humans, to the world around us, rather than keeping us *above* others. Screw that. :::shrug::: Am hoping, Rian, you didn't think I agreed with Chong's thinking. Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:56:22 -0800 (PST) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: Suite: Judy Blue Eyes with Joni! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_raSA3I9ak Here's a 1974 performance of Suite: Judy Blue Eyes which starts out with just CSN. It's not the best they have sounded but it's certainly not the worst either, especially compared to other performances on this tour. Joni and Neil Young walk onto the stage from opposite sides at about 3:19 into the song so don't fret. Joni provides backing vocals. -Monika - --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:27:24 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc - -------------- Original message from "Ross, Les" : -------------- > Laura can speak for herself but I don't think it was laura's intent to be > inflamatory. Rather to draw our attention to and be aware that such > arguments as those being posited in Chong's essay are out there and are have > currency in the millieu wherein action on a national and global scale is > being taken. > > It's important to divorce messenger from message. It made me sick to my > stomach and it aint a thrilling way to start the day but there it is. I certainly don't think Laura did it maliciously, but I would wager that most of us on this list are well-aware, far too well-aware, of how the rest of the world views the U.S. and I know all too well how many people feel the way this Chong character does (for one thing I've had it shoved down my throat by the administration for lo these many years). Aleda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:43:45 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: RE: What do ya'll think of this?, njc I think it's a heap of shite. I also think it's a heap of shite to have to scroll through this very long article every time someone adds a very brief comment to it. Ask yourselves, people, is it really necessary to include the original post every time? mike in bcn np RHP - Old Ramon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:34:01 EST From: SweetbirdUR@aol.com Subject: Re: What do ya'll think of this?, njc In a message dated 11/29/07 9:56:55 AM, vaniglio@hotmail.com writes: > I'm Italian. Half proud of being.... > Way cool! I love Italians, especially those near rivers. Love, Laura ************************************** Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:37:49 -0800 (PST) From: Peep Richman Subject: Re: It's Hello from Bo Hi Joni Family, I'm losing my short term memory....I think I wrote to Mark in response to all that Mark shared about Richard. Did I? Or did I e-mail Mark? I too have a Richard story. The incredible gift that Joni continually gives me is her brilliance at working through something painful in her life...and also the joys. But then I think, wow...with her talent comes the gift of working through the challenges that life brings us all...I think she can come to closure more easily than someone who can't express themselves with any kind of creativity. Maybe I'm way off base here...I don't know. Joni has shared so much from her life and as each of us interprets her lyrics and then relates them to our lives, we have a vehicle to come to some type of closure...or to accept that there's no type of closure available...you just have to deal with whatever is happening in our lives. Just some thoughts...now..I'm back to my addiction: "Shine". Love from Bo - --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #481 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------