From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #480 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, November 29 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 480 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: NJC - Various [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: What do ya'll think of this?, njc ["Jamie's Box of Paints" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:53:05 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - Various OK - you got me out of Joni-only mode for a few minutes this year. I keep my subscription to the regular digest just so I have access to the courts when I need/want it. Mark initially posted: "Sorry for not heading this up with NJC but I just know Joni would be inspired by the changes going on around the world and the new found consciousness people are developing." But do you really laugh, do you really care, are you really sorry, when you say you're sorry ? Mark, I realize that I do not have a 'right' to my NJC, but for now I am benefiting from - and appreciate - the NJC rule, and would hope to keep it that way. Your post was quite respectful on its face, and certainly by modern standards inoffensive. However, its message essentially is - directionally - along the lines of "I don't care if you don't wanna hear it - I'm gonna put it in your face anyway". That, in turn, encourages others to follow suit. In this case, only Marion bit, but...... In that sense your post was somewhat disrespectful. I am quite confident that you realize this, but the hypothesis that Joni would approve of your politics is not the point, even if true. My friend Bob Muller replied - using the respectful NJC tag: "Mark, Thanks for your post, I appreciate your first-hand take on Australian politics." Bob did not complain about Mark's paragraph above, but I suspect he did not approve - nor did he follow suit (even though he too apparently suffers from "I hate George Bush-itis"). In scrolling further, I see that Laura solicited opinions re a provocative essay, apparently written about a year ago (?). Speaking from what I believe is a moderate perspective, I would say that this post is approximately as far right in its tone and content as much of the politics on this list are to the left. My main objection to the post - and it is a serious one - is that its tone (and perhaps specific content - I need to scrutinize the wording more carefully) seems to be anti-Muslim. I wish he had chosen his words more carefully - he seems to realize that the concept of terrorism is the main issue, and in citing Hitler, he acknowledges that evil is not the sole possession of any one group. I agree with the author about the basic math - it does not matter that 95% of Muslims are peaceful or disapprove of terrorism if 95% of all current terrorists are Muslim (and the 5% of Muslims who are terrorists are holding the other 95% of Muslims hostage and threatening the rest of us). I also agree that in many cases we need to go through a difficulty in order to get out of it. Kind of Thomas Paine - like in its simple way, but simple is not necessarily to be scorned. (On a political level, Joni didn't let Kipling's political incorrectness stop her from covering his simple - and much disdained in intellectual circles, I believe - poem as the closer on Shine). In that respect, it may be that Iraqis and their Arab and Muslim brethren may be going through what they need to go through in order to see the light. By seeing American soldiers behaving for the greatest part the way human beings should (and representing the courage to stand up to evil to defend the liberty that we have earned), the Iraqis may be beginning to see terrorism as the real enemy. I may be dreaming, but I hope so. This is not a one-year process; in the best case it will take time - quite a lot of it. I believe that Australia knows this, and will not run away from America going forward, any more than France or Germany or England have or will, notwithstanding the rhetoric, which has toned down quite a bit recently. That said, I am very disappointed in the way in which the Bush administration has conducted the whole Iraq affair, from the disingenuous way in which it sold the effort (their reasons were listed in nearly reverse order of importance, in an effort to sell them, IMO) to the remarkably short-sighted execution of the effort, particularly in the immediate aftermath of the invasion, but also in the several years following. Rumsfeld got it wrong, and Bush listened to him. Let our little lights shine. Bobsart **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:00:16 +0000 From: "Jamie's Box of Paints" Subject: Re: What do ya'll think of this?, njc oh my god... I\m not at all sure how to reply to this post... as a muslim growing up in Malaysia (which has equal rights for women, (limited) freedom of speech (as long as it wasn't against the govt, which is non-secular, or religions (plural, there are at least 3 major religions in Malaysia but over 50% of the country is Muslim)) you could say what you liked. As a former British colony, they still have the death penalty for drug trafficking and still is the thorn in America's side politically and economically (malaysia's largest export is rubber and tin). I find statements like what the Lt Colonel saying closed minded and inflammatory as it preys on people's fears of the unknown, fear of the outsider. I'm not sure if he can claim that France is 20% Muslim... Paris *perhaps* has a large Muslim community but also*perhaps* if you count it's departments (foreign colonies, or former colonies)... Britain? More mosques than churches? This is possible... the Church of England keep on selling their churches and de-consecrating them so people can convert them to houses.... nothing to do with muslims building mosques... Has this person ever been to a mosque? When not in prayer time, it is usually one of the most peaceful and serene places to be, with exquisite decorations and beautiful scriptures around the place... Even in prayer time, it's filled with, to me, a beautiful sound... not that I understand it all, to my shame.... It would seem to me this was written to make people fear the 'otherness' of muslims. yes, there can be a word or two said about the atrocities of war. I'm sure that I could but Ihave 3 mins left at this cafe and I'd probably save it for later.... Something about Israel/Palestine too, just to drop that bombshell in there... But more later when I have tome to mull(ah) this over.... Jamie Zooby On 29/11/2007, sweetbirdur wrote: > Hi Jonilistas, > > > My dad, a retired AF Lt. Colonel, recently send this to me (below). I > would like to hear your opinion about this essay. > > > Love and appreciation, > Laura > > > > > If you would like to see who this writer is, go to this Air Force web > site and look him up: > http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5000 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA : A different spin on Iraq war. > > > > This WAR is for REAL! > > > > Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired > > > > To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our > country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we > know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes > WWII) > > > > The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are > very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer > who realize what losing really means. > > > > First, let's examine a few basics > > > > 1. When did the threat to us start > > > > Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United > States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the > following attacks on us: > * Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979; > * Beirut , Lebanon Embassy 1983; > * Beirut , Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983; > * Lockerbie , Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988; > * First New York World Trade Center attack 1993; > * Dhahran , Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996; > * Nairobi , Kenya US Embassy 1998; > * Dares Salaam , Tanzania US Embassy 1998; > * A! den, Yemen USS Cole 2000; > * New York World Trade Center 2001;* Pentagon 2001. > > > > (Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 > terrorist attacks worldwide). > > > > 2. Why were we attacked? > > > > Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks > happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush > 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or > Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or > their immediate predecessor, President Ford. > > > > 3. Who were the attackers? > > > > In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims > > > > 4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%. > > > > 5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful? > > > > Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the > predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under > the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian (?)), that > made no difference. You either went along with the ad ministration or > you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by > the Nazis for political reasons (including > 7,000 Polish priests). > > > > (seehttp://www.Nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm) > > > > Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as > the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom > heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler > kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing > anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over > the world - German, Christian or any others. > > > > Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US , but > kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, British, French > or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans > were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many > peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the > terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- > by their own pronouncements > -- killing all of us 'infidels.' I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. > What would you do if the choice was shut up or die? > > > > 6. So who are we at war with? > > > > There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than > the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid > verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win > if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting. > > > > So with that background, now to the two major questions: > > > > 1 Can we lose this war? > > > > 2 What does losing really mean? > > > > If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions: > > > > We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the > major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the > answer to the second question - What does losing mean? > > > > It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means > hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our > business, like post-Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can > get. > > > > What losing really means is > > > > We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks > will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they > want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they > would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, > over the past 18 years. The plan was, clearly, for terrorists to > attack us until we were neutered and submissive to them. > > > > We would, of course, have no future support from other nations, for > fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see; we are > impotent and cannot help them. > > > > They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It > will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain > hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to > withdraw its troops from Iraq Spain did it because the Muslim > terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. > Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished. > > > > The next will probably be France Our one hope on France is that they > might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished > too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. > However, it may already be too late for France France is already 20% > Muslim and fading fast! > > > > Without our support Great Britain will go too. Recently I read that > there are more mosques in England than churches. > > > > If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life > will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal > with us if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the > Muslim terrorists, how could anyone else? > > > > The radical Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and > therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better > know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost. > > > > Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. > Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put > 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take > that 100% effort to win. > > > > So, how can we lose the war? > > > > Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by 'imploding.' That > is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their > purpose, and really digging in and lending full support to the war > effort. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we > continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win! > > > > Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the > life and death seriousness of this situation. > > > > President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. > Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men > between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow > profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? > This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of > the civil rights we have become accustomed. We had better be prepared > to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly > lose all of them permanently. > > > > And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of > civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the > victory and in fact added many more since then. > > > > Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him? > > > > No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our > Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict > and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to > war. Get them out of your head. > > > > Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the > Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us > lose. > > > > I think some actually do, I hasten to add that this isn't because they > are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing > means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy > that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it > does great damage to our cause. > > > > Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media > regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies > best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the > treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our > military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months > ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their > hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own > people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein. ! > > > > And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed > 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the > same type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and > dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq . And still > more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing videos > to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American > prisoners they held. > > > > Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several > days have thought and talked about nothing else but the 'humiliating' > of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their > charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but > 'humiliating' them. > > > > Can they be for real? > > > > The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the > Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of > comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are > fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous > results of losing this war, nothing can. > > > > To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this > prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome > burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. > Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. > Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media > people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely > oblivious to the magnitude of the situation we are in and into which > the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years. > > > > These people are a serious and dangerous liability to the war effort. > We must take note of who they are and get them out of office. > Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! > That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United States , > but throughout the world. We are the last bastion of defense. > > > > We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge > is valid. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, > powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those > who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can > defeat anything bad in the world! We can't! > > > > If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, > and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated. > > > > And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow > freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of > the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status > or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way > that contributes to the good of the world. > > > > This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war > or we will be equated in the history books to the self- inflicted fall > of the Roman Empire If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow > history books to be written or read. > > > > If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims > take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to > increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach > little by little, on the established French traditions. > > > > The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or > should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them > from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar? > > > > Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some > external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, > politically correct piece by politically correct piece. > > > > And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, > worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even > to themselves, once they are in power. > > > > Muslims have universally shown that when they have taken over, they > then start brutally killing each other over whom will be the few who > control the masses > > > > What is happening in Iraq is a good example. Will we ever stop hearing > from the politically correct, about the 'peaceful Muslims'? > > > > I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are > united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now, after the > election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the > critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It > is your future we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve > it. I reiterate. A national election is months away. > > > > After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, > but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world. > Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that > includes the Politicians and media of our country and the free world! > > > - -- I am a lonely Painter I live in a Box of Paints I'm frightened by the devil But I'm drawn to those ones that 'aint afraid... Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at http://uk.voicespro.com/jamie.zubairi1 acting CV and showreel at http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 http://www.jamiezubairi.co.uk Facebook me! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:02:37 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: What do ya'll think of this?, njc I think it's complete b.s. The war in Iraq has in fact increased the very thing--terrorism--that the Bush administration lied to us was the reason for it. The 9/11 attackers were majority Saudis, but the Bush family and Cheney et al have been in bed with the Saudis for so long they're not about to call them on their behavior. "We" didn't hang our heads after Viet Nam--and the people who should have, like that slimeball Robert McNamara who wrote a book LONG AFTER saying he knew it was wrong at the time and yet failed to speak out when he might possibly have saved thousands and thousands of lives, are the ones who should be hanging their heads. Iraq, in the words of the late, great David Halberstam used to describe Viet Nam, is a quagmire, and anyone who thinks Viet Nam is over should visit a VA home. My father, an otherwise healthy 76 year old man, is a hundred per cent physically disabled because the Air Force, to which he was committed heart and soul, saw nothing problematic about asking its guys to wade through Agent Orange routinely. I don't know why that smirky, self-satisfied,close-minded individual who now occupies the White House was hell-bent on starting the Iraq war, but I do know he's going to leave a mess that generations of people are going to have to clean up. There are good Muslims and good Christians, but when I take a look at history I see things done in the name of religion as causing as much, if not more, violence than other cultural, geographical and other factors. Sorry if I'm overreacting here, but if one's life includes daily visits to a Veterans Adminsitration home, as mine does, one can't help but be too aware of how this country learned nothing from Viet Nam (except possibly not to blame the troops for misguided American policy, which is a very good thing). I often think of a child who, forty years from now, will be dealing, as I am, with the fall-out from another pointless destructive American war, and then laugh ruefully--since I'm too tired to cry (wish I could think of the great line from Shine, but I'm too tired) that we're the lucky ones, who don't have to go to the Wall and trace off our father's name from that long list. And this notion that the rest of the world is just jellus of us is so tired it should be put to bed forever. The first line of that essay is ripped off from Robert Frost, who wrote "The best way out is always through." What Frost says is true, but I don't think he meant starting a war by lying about weapons of mass destruction and preying on the fears of a semi-hysterical country, still reeling from the attacks on 9/11. Aleda, still in Saigon - -------------- Original message from sweetbirdur : -------------- > Hi Jonilistas, > > > My dad, a retired AF Lt. Colonel, recently send this to me (below). I > would like to hear your opinion about this essay. > > > Love and appreciation, > Laura > > > > > If you would like to see who this writer is, go to this Air Force web > site and look him up: > http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5000 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA : A different spin on Iraq war. > > > > This WAR is for REAL! > > > > Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired > > > > To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our > country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we > know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes > WWII) > > > > The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are > very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer > who realize what losing really means. > > > > First, let's examine a few basics > > > > 1. When did the threat to us start > > > > Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United > States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the > following attacks on us: > * Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979; > * Beirut , Lebanon Embassy 1983; > * Beirut , Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983; > * Lockerbie , Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988; > * First New York World Trade Center attack 1993; > * Dhahran , Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996; > * Nairobi , Kenya US Embassy 1998; > * Dares Salaam , Tanzania US Embassy 1998; > * A! den, Yemen USS Cole 2000; > * New York World Trade Center 2001;* Pentagon 2001. > > > > (Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 > terrorist attacks worldwide). > > > > 2. Why were we attacked? > > > > Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks > happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush > 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or > Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or > their immediate predecessor, President Ford. > > > > 3. Who were the attackers? > > > > In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims > > > > 4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%. > > > > 5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful? > > > > Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the > predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under > the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian (?)), that > made no difference. You either went along with the ad ministration or > you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by > the Nazis for political reasons (including > 7,000 Polish priests). > > > > (seehttp://www.Nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm) > > > > Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as > the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom > heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler > kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing > anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over > the world - German, Christian or any others. > > > > Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US , but > kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, British, French > or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans > were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many > peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the > terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- > by their own pronouncements > -- killing all of us 'infidels.' I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. > What would you do if the choice was shut up or die? > > > > 6. So who are we at war with? > > > > There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than > the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid > verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win > if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting. > > > > So with that background, now to the two major questions: > > > > 1 Can we lose this war? > > > > 2 What does losing really mean? > > > > If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions: > > > > We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the > major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the > answer to the second question - What does losing mean? > > > > It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means > hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our > business, like post-Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can > get. > > > > What losing really means is > > > > We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks > will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they > want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they > would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, > over the past 18 years. The plan was, clearly, for terrorists to > attack us until we were neutered and submissive to them. > > > > We would, of course, have no future support from other nations, for > fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see; we are > impotent and cannot help them. > > > > They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It > will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain > hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to > withdraw its troops from Iraq Spain did it because the Muslim > terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. > Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished. > > > > The next will probably be France Our one hope on France is that they > might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished > too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. > However, it may already be too late for France France is already 20% > Muslim and fading fast! > > > > Without our support Great Britain will go too. Recently I read that > there are more mosques in England than churches. > > > > If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life > will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal > with us if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the > Muslim terrorists, how could anyone else? > > > > The radical Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and > therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better > know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost. > > > > Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. > Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put > 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take > that 100% effort to win. > > > > So, how can we lose the war? > > > > Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by 'imploding.' That > is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their > purpose, and really digging in and lending full support to the war > effort. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we > continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win! > > > > Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the > life and death seriousness of this situation. > > > > President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. > Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men > between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow > profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? > This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of > the civil rights we have become accustomed. We had better be prepared > to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly > lose all of them permanently. > > > > And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of > civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the > victory and in fact added many more since then. > > > > Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him? > > > > No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our > Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict > and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to > war. Get them out of your head. > > > > Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the > Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us > lose. > > > > I think some actually do, I hasten to add that this isn't because they > are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing > means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy > that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it > does great damage to our cause. > > > > Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media > regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies > best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the > treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our > military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months > ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their > hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own > people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein. ! > > > > And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed > 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the > same type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and > dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq . And still > more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing videos > to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American > prisoners they held. > > > > Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several > days have thought and talked about nothing else but the 'humiliating' > of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their > charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but > 'humiliating' them. > > > > Can they be for real? > > > > The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the > Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of > comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are > fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous > results of losing this war, nothing can. > > > > To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this > prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome > burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. > Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. > Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media > people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely > oblivious to the magnitude of the situation we are in and into which > the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years. > > > > These people are a serious and dangerous liability to the war effort. > We must take note of who they are and get them out of office. > Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! > That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United States , > but throughout the world. We are the last bastion of defense. > > > > We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge > is valid. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, > powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those > who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can > defeat anything bad in the world! We can't! > > > > If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, > and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated. > > > > And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow > freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of > the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status > or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way > that contributes to the good of the world. > > > > This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war > or we will be equated in the history books to the self- inflicted fall > of the Roman Empire If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow > history books to be written or read. > > > > If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims > take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to > increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach > little by little, on the established French traditions. > > > > The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or > should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them > from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar? > > > > Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some > external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, > politically correct piece by politically correct piece. > > > > And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, > worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even > to themselves, once they are in power. > > > > Muslims have universally shown that when they have taken over, they > then start brutally killing each other over whom will be the few who > control the masses > > > > What is happening in Iraq is a good example. Will we ever stop hearing > from the politically correct, about the 'peaceful Muslims'? > > > > I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are > united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now, after the > election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the > critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It > is your future we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve > it. I reiterate. A national election is months away. > > > > After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, > but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world. > Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that > includes the Politicians and media of our country and the free world! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:22:12 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: What do ya'll think of this?, njc SOME Americans, Danilo, only some. More Americans voted for Gore than for Bush. Jerry > Let me tell you, the most serious threat to their existence your country and > the whole world are facing is George W. Bush. > > It's unbelievable that someone still makes a matter of religion of the attacks > of 9/11. You should care about your government, first. It's affecting the > world. > > So what about the unfound weapons of mass destruction? Isn't it terrorism as > well? > You re-elected Bush who lied about that, when you were ready to impeach > Clinton who lied about the Lewinsky affaire. > Weird Americans... > > Danilo > > >> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:36:05 -0600 >> Subject: What do ya'll think of this?, njc >> From: sweetbirdur@aol.com >> To: joni@smoe.org >> >> Hi Jonilistas, >> >> >> My dad, a retired AF Lt. Colonel, recently send this to me (below). I >> would like to hear your opinion about this essay. >> >> >> Love and appreciation, >> Laura >> >> >> >> >> If you would like to see who this writer is, go to this Air Force web >> site and look him up: >> http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5000 >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA : A different spin on Iraq war. >> >> >> >> This WAR is for REAL! >> >> >> >> Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired >> >> >> >> To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our >> country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we >> know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes >> WWII) >> >> >> >> The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are >> very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer >> who realize what losing really means. >> >> >> >> First, let's examine a few basics >> >> >> >> 1. When did the threat to us start >> >> >> >> Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United >> States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the >> following attacks on us: >> * Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979; >> * Beirut , Lebanon Embassy 1983; >> * Beirut , Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983; >> * Lockerbie , Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988; >> * First New York World Trade Center attack 1993; >> * Dhahran , Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996; >> * Nairobi , Kenya US Embassy 1998; >> * Dares Salaam , Tanzania US Embassy 1998; >> * A! den, Yemen USS Cole 2000; >> * New York World Trade Center 2001;* Pentagon 2001. >> >> >> >> (Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 >> terrorist attacks worldwide). >> >> >> >> 2. Why were we attacked? >> >> >> >> Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks >> happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush >> 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or >> Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or >> their immediate predecessor, President Ford. >> >> >> >> 3. Who were the attackers? >> >> >> >> In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims >> >> >> >> 4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%. >> >> >> >> 5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful? >> >> >> >> Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the >> predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under >> the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian (?)), that >> made no difference. You either went along with the ad ministration or >> you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by >> the Nazis for political reasons (including >> 7,000 Polish priests). >> >> >> >> (seehttp://www.Nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm) >> >> >> >> Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as >> the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom >> heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler >> kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing >> anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over >> the world - German, Christian or any others. >> >> >> >> Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US , but >> kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, British, French >> or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans >> were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many >> peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the >> terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- >> by their own pronouncements >> -- killing all of us 'infidels.' I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. >> What would you do if the choice was shut up or die? >> >> >> >> 6. So who are we at war with? >> >> >> >> There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than >> the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid >> verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win >> if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting. >> >> >> >> So with that background, now to the two major questions: >> >> >> >> 1 Can we lose this war? >> >> >> >> 2 What does losing really mean? >> >> >> >> If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions: >> >> >> >> We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the >> major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the >> answer to the second question - What does losing mean? >> >> >> >> It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means >> hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our >> business, like post-Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can >> get. >> >> >> >> What losing really means is >> >> >> >> We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks >> will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they >> want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they >> would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, >> over the past 18 years. The plan was, clearly, for terrorists to >> attack us until we were neutered and submissive to them. >> >> >> >> We would, of course, have no future support from other nations, for >> fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see; we are >> impotent and cannot help them. >> >> >> >> They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It >> will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain >> hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to >> withdraw its troops from Iraq Spain did it because the Muslim >> terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. >> Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished. >> >> >> >> The next will probably be France Our one hope on France is that they >> might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished >> too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. >> However, it may already be too late for France France is already 20% >> Muslim and fading fast! >> >> >> >> Without our support Great Britain will go too. Recently I read that >> there are more mosques in England than churches. >> >> >> >> If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life >> will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal >> with us if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the >> Muslim terrorists, how could anyone else? >> >> >> >> The radical Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and >> therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better >> know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost. >> >> >> >> Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. >> Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put >> 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take >> that 100% effort to win. >> >> >> >> So, how can we lose the war? >> >> >> >> Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by 'imploding.' That >> is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their >> purpose, and really digging in and lending full support to the war >> effort. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we >> continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win! >> >> >> >> Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the >> life and death seriousness of this situation. >> >> >> >> President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. >> Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men >> between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow >> profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? >> This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of >> the civil rights we have become accustomed. We had better be prepared >> to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly >> lose all of them permanently. >> >> >> >> And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of >> civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the >> victory and in fact added many more since then. >> >> >> >> Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him? >> >> >> >> No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our >> Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict >> and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to >> war. Get them out of your head. >> >> >> >> Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the >> Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us >> lose. >> >> >> >> I think some actually do, I hasten to add that this isn't because they >> are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing >> means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy >> that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it >> does great damage to our cause. >> >> >> >> Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media >> regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies >> best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the >> treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our >> military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months >> ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their >> hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own >> people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein. ! >> >> >> >> And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed >> 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the >> same type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and >> dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq . And still >> more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing videos >> to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American >> prisoners they held. >> >> >> >> Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several >> days have thought and talked about nothing else but the 'humiliating' >> of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their >> charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but >> 'humiliating' them. >> >> >> >> Can they be for real? >> >> >> >> The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the >> Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of >> comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are >> fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous >> results of losing this war, nothing can. >> >> >> >> To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this >> prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome >> burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. >> Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. >> Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media >> people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely >> oblivious to the magnitude of the situation we are in and into which >> the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years. >> >> >> >> These people are a serious and dangerous liability to the war effort. >> We must take note of who they are and get them out of office. >> Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! >> That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United States , >> but throughout the world. We are the last bastion of defense. >> >> >> >> We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge >> is valid. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, >> powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those >> who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can >> defeat anything bad in the world! We can't! >> >> >> >> If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, >> and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated. >> >> >> >> And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow >> freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of >> the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status >> or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way >> that contributes to the good of the world. >> >> >> >> This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war >> or we will be equated in the history books to the self- inflicted fall >> of the Roman Empire If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow >> history books to be written or read. >> >> >> >> If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims >> take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to >> increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach >> little by little, on the established French traditions. >> >> >> >> The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or >> should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them >> from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar? >> >> >> >> Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some >> external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, >> politically correct piece by politically correct piece. >> >> >> >> And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, >> worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even >> to themselves, once they are in power. >> >> >> >> Muslims have universally shown that when they have taken over, they >> then start brutally killing each other over whom will be the few who >> control the masses >> >> >> >> What is happening in Iraq is a good example. Will we ever stop hearing >> from the politically correct, about the 'peaceful Muslims'? >> >> >> >> I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are >> united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now, after the >> election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the >> critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It >> is your future we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve >> it. I reiterate. A national election is months away. >> >> >> >> After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, >> but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world. >> Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that >> includes the Politicians and media of our country and the free world! >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Scarica GRATIS 30 emoticon per Messenger! > http://www.emoticons-livemessenger.com/pages/msnit/index.htm ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #480 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------