From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #397 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, October 1 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 397 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni Covers, Volume 93 - A Help Me Sandwich [Bob Muller ] NJC Re: SV: A strange combination [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] telling singers to sing Joni [Joseph Palis ] Re: Joni and Bob [J Kendel Johnson ] Re: Joni on NPR's "All Things Considered" TODAY, 9/28 [Michael Flaherty <] Re: njc, Be Not Too Hard [Motitan@aol.com] Re: Joni on NPR's "All Things Considered" TODAY, 9/28 [waytoblue@comcast.] Re: Joni and Bob [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] NPR Sep 28 story link - fotos & text ["Barbara Stewart" ] Re: If, and all the 'adaptations' ["Kate Bennett" ] joni and all that jazz [Mags ] All this talk about Shine... ["Donna Binkley" ] film about Joni's ballet [Kate Johnson ] NJC Guitar tabs.... [Motitan@aol.com] NJC Bob Wiseman? [missblux@googlemail.com] Re: The Anticlimactic Shine [J Kendel Johnson ] re: The Fox News Story Continues [c Karma ] Re: Joni and Bob [J Kendel Johnson ] Re: If, and all the 'adaptations' [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni on NPR's "All Things Considered" TODAY, 9/28 [Michael Flaherty <] Re: All this talk about Shine... [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] RE: If, and all the 'adaptations' ["Richard Flynn" Subject: Joni Covers, Volume 93 - A Help Me Sandwich Happy October, fellow Joni fans all over the world! It's certainly a busy time in JoniVille...art exhibits, new albums, upcoming TV appearances, ballets, pissed-off Catholics, and of course, as always - the beloved and never-ending parade of Joni Covers - and boy do I love a parade! With the falling of autumn leaves, covers continue to drop as well. Another 19 this month, as always from all corners of the globe and spanning the decades (though the vast majority of it is new stuff). Volume 92 was the most downloaded of the series so far, and I think 93 follows hot on its footsteps. And with this one goes a big tip of my Hillbilly Hatfield Hat to the people who contributed to this volume: Joseph, Adrian, Halie, & Guy-Michael. Thanks all - I'm touched by your generosity and interest and encouragement. So here's where you can find the music: http://download.yousendit.com/9F0B6F8D394DCCF5 And here's what you'll find: 1. Jodi Proznick Quartet - Help Me: I always try to kick off each volume with a track that I like a bunch a lot and this one is no exception. The Canadian jazz quartet consists of Jodi on acoustic bass (she gets to do some nice soloing), and is rounded out with sax, piano and drums. All four of these players turn in outstanding performances, each complementing the other and pacing the song just right. Knocks my socks off and I hope it has the same effect on you. 2. Julie Kelly - Both Sides Now 3. Julie Kelly - Woodstock: These are two very pleasant vocal jazz/pop tracks, featuring some nice flute, piano arrangements, and Julie's clear soothing voice. Even though she selects some commonly done songs, she manages to pump a little new life into them. 4. Daniel Ho - Big Yellow Taxi: Hawaiian artist offers up a fine fresh-sounding version of BYT, he's got a great voice and the instrumental work is great as well, a tad world music'ish at times. 5. Allison Crowe - A Case Of You: Another fine entry in the Joni Covers pantheon for Allison, who first wowed us with her electrifying take on River. This time 'round she picks another Blue selection and imbues it with her sensitive singing and playing. From her 2006 release "This Little Bird", all of which is as tasty as this track. 6. Bill Hall - The Circle Game: From his 2006 CD, Bill's guitar & voice is reminiscent of Gordon Lightfoot. And I send this one out to my own wondrous boy, who notches another ride on the painted ponies today. 7. Julia Rich - Both Sides Now: Julia first came to my attention for her work as the wicked witch in the Broadway hit "Wicked". She's a fine singer and gives a nice synchopated lite-jazz touch to the franchise with this selection off her 2006 CD. 8. Halie Loren - River: Halie hails from Alaska and is currently a college student in the Northwestern corner of the US. She conjures up comparisons to Tori Amos but not in an entirely derivative way. Her voice/piano version of River is lovely. 9. Kari Bremnes - Ottar: Well, I guess it's appropriate that Norway's Kari Bremnes would choose "Carey" as her Joni cover, and she sings it in Norwegian. Always fun for me to hear Joni in another language, serves as proof of Joni's universal appeal. 10: Sixth Wave - Twisted: Very tight sextet acapella group singing ala Manhattan Transfer, The Swingle Singers, etc. Bouncy & fun with some incredibly fast-paced and tricky harmonics at play. 11. Jimmy Wallis - Both Sides Now: Well, I wish he wouldn't have, but he did. And by the terms of international law, I'm obligated to provide it to you. Comes straight to you from the Love Boat lounge...enjoy the cheese snack. 12. Mary Koth Lutton - Woodstock 13. Mary Koth Lutton - The Dawntreader: Mary's heart is in the right place, but I can't honestly say that her vocals follow suit. There is a haunting fragility in her singing that I appreciate, and an honesty as well. And I truly am always delighted to see someone grab up The Dawntreader, one of my fave Joni songs, and give it some new exposure. She does a better job with this one I would say. 14. Guy-Michael Grande - A Case Of You: A nice spirited voice/six-string version of what is becoming one of Joni's most recognizable melodies. Guy-Michael's voice has a nice combination of warmth and strength and as such is a good fit for this one. 15. Erik Carlson - People's Parties: Erik is not a stranger to Joni covers, having earlier given us a nice rendition of "Rainy Night House". So he definitely prefers the deep tracks, and more power to him for that. This take of PP is a fine stripped-down take of voice and guitar. 16. George Callaghan - The Circle Game: Not a big fan of George's voice, though I do enjoy the duet on the chorus and the bits of harp thrown in there are pretty too. 17. Tres Tigres Tristes - Big Yellow Taxi: Coming to us from Europe (not sure of their country of orgin) and giving BYT a bit of a skiffle treatment, this is a somewhat unique addition to the string of BYT's I do have to say. 18. Michael Lington - Both Sides Now: Saxophonist Michael Lington offers up a jazz-brunch take on BSN, a bit sappy for my taste but still offering up some originality and a nice solo flourish. 19. John Hart Trio - Help Me: Also turning in a repeat performance is this 2006 track from the John Hart Trio, who also have a BSN to their credit. They put a nice jazzy instrumental spin on Joni's biggest hit, John's electric guitar taking center stage, complemented by some fine percussion work as well. And there it is - some HOT Joni covers to keep you warm as the temperatures start to drop. Thanks for your interest if you read all the way to here, and hey, if you want to check out more about these artists, you can get to their websites via JM.com: http://www.jonimitchell.com/musician/undercover.cfm Just select "93" from the drop-down menu. And speaking of which, a big thanks to Les for providing us with the space for all of this information - space which is not free, so if you snag this collection and are digging it, consider putting a buck or two in Les' tip jar: http://www.jonimitchell.com/donate.cfm That's all for now - over and out from Joni Covers central. Bob - --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:02:44 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Favorite Shine Lyrics In a message dated 10/1/07 ganesh@mail2Uk.com, writes: > hell/heaven are human constructs > I'm of the opinion that as places yes; as events, no. Love, Laura ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:59:23 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: A strange combination http://tinyurl.com/3bl5k5 I can certainly understand why a seller would want to combine more than one item in an auction lot, but what in the world makes this seller think that these two items would have appeal the same buyer? Bob NP: Karrin Allyson, "Help Me" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:00:13 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: A strange combination I think it's kind of cute!:-) Maybe someone will want the Joni album for her/himself and the other one for somebody else, a kid maybe so she/he can listen to Joni in peace? Marion, still running a temperature (if that's an excuse;.) - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Skickat: den 1 oktober 2007 14:59 Till: joni@smoe.org Dmne: A strange combination http://tinyurl.com/3bl5k5 I can certainly understand why a seller would want to combine more than one item in an auction lot, but what in the world makes this seller think that these two items would have appeal the same buyer? Bob NP: Karrin Allyson, "Help Me" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:16:10 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: NJC Re: SV: A strange combination Good point - but how many kids nowadays would even know what to do with an LP record? Reminds me of Austin Powers trying to play a CD on his turntable. Hope you get well soon. Bob NP: Prince, "If I Was Your Girlfriend" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:37:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: telling singers to sing Joni Hi Aleda, First of all, I envy you for having the opportunity to speak to Cassandra Wilson. I love this woman (although I am not really a big fan of her M-BASE period) and I read in one interview before where she said that her speaking voice is very similar to her singing. She said something along the lines that singing should come off as naturally as singing or something like that. Maybe she shold tell that to operatic singers. Just kidding. Second, when I get the opportunity to be in the same speaking space as other singers, I usually ask them if they ever sang a Joni song too (also some RLJ or Tom Waits). The responses have usually been a yes. They sang an occasional Joni in concert or in live gigs but never attempted to sing her. I asked singers as different as Laurel Masse (formerly from Manhattan Transfer) to Adi Braun (great Canadian chanteuse) to Nnenna Freelon. Seems like Joni has figured in their repertoire at one point in their careers. Even operatic singers have been known to really dig Joni - Renee Fleming, Dawn Upshaw, Anne Sofie von Otter and Birgit Nilsson (just kidding on Nilsson). Cassandra has given us a wonderful version of "Black Crow" from her "Blue Light Til Dawn" album and she once said in a joint interview with Joni that she adored DJRD whens he was starting out. Joseph np: Architecture in Helsinki - Nothing's Wrong Your post below made me smile because practically ajfashion@att.net a icrit : . When I had the honor of speaking with Cassandra Wilson on the phone a year or so ago, I begged her--probably inappropriately--to do an entire album of Mitchell covers. She did say she loved Mitchell. But OMG there are so many Mitchell songs I'd love to hear Wilson sing. - --------------------------------- Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:49:52 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Kerry wrote: Has anyone else noticed a similarity between Joni's new song, "This Place" and Dylan's "Spirit on the Water" from Modern Times? Just play the first few minutes of each song back to back and see if you agree. (And they're both the second songs on their latest CD's). It must be a coincidence because I can't see her sitting around listening to Dylan so much that it would creep into her songwriting. As a musician and songwriter myself, I think the number of consecutive measures in which the melody matches note for note would ordinarily elicit a letter from the other artist's attorney (and a lawsuit if royalties were not henceforth surrendered) -- and, who knows? Maybe that's occurred! (Could be done very quietly amongst friends, mutually respectful artists, etc.) Her copycatting of Dylan's song might have been totally unconscious, but I think it's way to similar to chalk up to mere coincidence. Even one listen to Modern Times would have been enough to stick the melody in the subconscious of many musicians. However, the fact that it's also the second song on Joni's album AND she actually incorporates a twist on Dylan's title in the last verse -- "Spirit OF the water" -- raises suspicion in me that she was aware of her musical borrowing (and may have received a green light from Dylan in advance of releasing the song.) Otherwise, we may yet be hearing about this song in future news reports! J ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:44:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: Joni on NPR's "All Things Considered" TODAY, 9/28 >>>I don't think you speak for all jazz musicians. No, I certainly don't, just those mentioned in probably those regularly in their company. Michael F. - --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:14:29 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: njc, Be Not Too Hard In a message dated 10/1/2007 12:45:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, loveuconn@hotmail.com writes: I'm up all night in the studio, wrapping little birthday gifts to mail to my wonderful mama, who taught me the deeper meaning. - ----------------------------------------------------------- Hope your Mom and anyone else celebrating their birthday has a good one! It's my dog's (Pepper) birthday too! - -Mon ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:26:11 +0000 From: waytoblue@comcast.net Subject: Re: Joni on NPR's "All Things Considered" TODAY, 9/28 -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Michael Flaherty > >>>I don't think you speak for all jazz musicians. > > > > No, I certainly don't, just those mentioned in probably those regularly in > their company. > > Michael F. No you don't. You speak for yourself only. Everyone's welcome to their own opinion but don't presume to speak for other people. Victor NP: Gerry Mulligan & Chet Baker "Aren't You Glad You're You" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:20:54 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Well, if she's gotta pony up and pay Bobby for his melody, he'll have to turn around and give the same payment to Jimmy Kennedy for "borrowing" the melody for "Red Sails in the Sunset" for his "Beyond The Horizon" on the same album. Bob NP: Jefferson Airplane, "3/5 of a Mile in 10 Seconds" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:28:36 -0400 From: "Barbara Stewart" Subject: NPR Sep 28 story link - fotos & text http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14766057 B from : Barbara L.Stewart, MLS Library - Sesame Workshop 1 Lincoln Plaza, 4th fl, NYC, NY 10023 USA tel: 212-875-6393 fax: 212-875-7309 barbara.stewart@sesameworkshop.org "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." - ML King ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:24:39 -0700 From: "Cassy" Subject: NJC - The Mom Song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlY8STkhopc This is pretty funny. Warmly, Cassy NP: Tool - Wings For Marie, Pt. 1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:37:23 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: If, and all the 'adaptations' I've seen very little criticism here on joni's new work so I'm not sure why you've reacted this way. And every artist must endure both praise & criticism of their work. It is not jealousy for heaven sake, it is how it is. Furthermore, if someone is going to claim that a well respected work of poetry needed a bit of work (or whatever her exact words are, sorry I forget), well then indeed criticism of her 'edits' are very justified. Jeannie> Joni sure has to endure extremely harsh critical judgements after her works get released, huh? I don't get this too well, just yet, and please understand, Bene, I don't get upset, just frustrated at this point, but never does the world exalt without putting down, and that's all part of the deal that comes with fame and fortunes just really get in the way, maybe because of jealousies or what?< ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:55:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Mags Subject: joni and all that jazz the first time i heard joni was in 1974, and the albums that became part of my attention, were court and spark, then blue, then ladies and clouds. for the most part, at that time, i was unfamiliar with jazz , and since that time, have grown into it. i remember seeing the cover of hejira , with joni in a beret and thinking oh no, what's going on, what happened to joni the folk musician? over time, i grew into understanding music that was well outside of my familiar territory. jazz , instrumentally speaking, to me (IMHO) a wonderful expression of colours, images, feelings, landscapes, that move beyond what words can express. I was fortunate to attend a jazz music camp for 13 years, and learned a lot from watching the players speak to one another through their instruments. Often there were no charts in front of them, and I got a real kick out of watching the back and forth chat between them. Priior to attending this camp, I used to get the eebie jeebies when jazz was on the radio. I just didnt get it, and I know I do now. For me, I dont need lyrics to hear the expression of voice(s) within the landscapes of jazz. There are many, many layers and levels of expression going on. i hear voices lol!! As for a deep and special connection with the music of Joni Mitchell, let's see if I can articulate this. For whatever reason, there IS something different about her, for me. She does stand separate and apart. To quote another lister, she provides a sound track to a life. I think it's how she lays out the raw emotionality of her life, something that I can relate to . Not saying that other musicians/music dont do that for me, too . See, it's hard to explain. Mags np: Joni skating away on Herbie's River. - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:22:27 -0500 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: All this talk about Shine... Hey yall, Well, I finally went over to the new Starbucks near my house Friday to buy it and there was an advertisement with Joni's pic "Lunch and Listen, September 25". Dang! Missed that, but there were no copies of the cd out on the shelves. So I asked the lady behind the counter for them, she had to ask the manager and out he came from the back with an arm load of them saying, "gee thanks for reminding me, I needed to put these out" then proceeded to set up a display with the cds for sale. Guess no one asked for them before. Good thing I was there to spread the word! ha ha. Great cd, I'm really enjoying it. Donna ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 09:57:44 -0500 From: Kate Johnson Subject: film about Joni's ballet Joni Mitchell-inspired ballet caught on film article here: http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/arts_life/story.html? id=6120435c-307d-4dca-acbf-d51ca2d56ccf - -- http://xoetc.antville.org Who Does She Think She Is? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:03:44 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: NJC Guitar tabs.... I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find the guitar tabs for Stephen Stills' Blind Fiddler? The song is a really old folk song in which he kept one verse and wrote the rest of them. Help? Please? - -Monika ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 18:09:29 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: NJC Bob Wiseman? I'm going to a concert with Canadian singer Feist tonight. Another Canadian, Bob Wiseman, is opening for her. My friend's got the tickets and she can't make it until after the opening act is over. Am I going to be missing out on something big? Bene ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:24:17 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: The Anticlimactic Shine William Elliott wrote:I think the last great work she did was Turbulent Indigo. I'm having the same experience -- except that I found "Man from Mars" and "Crazy Cries of Love" on TTT both very solid in terms of writing, musical performance, recording and producing. When I was in high school, a devoted Joni fan gave me Blue and FTR to listen to and I gave them back after one listen straight through -- "way too many lyrics and endlessly wandering melodies," I said. Then I bought Court and Spark with some birthday money my senior year, and the walls came tumbling down. I spent years after that deliciously immersing myself in the genius of every Joni composition and recording in her catalog. I think Joni's work may be an "acquired taste" for many people, and, as with many world-renown, historically venerated artists of all media, one must "enter her world" to some degree in order to begin truly connecting with its essence and pure genius. So, even though I still consider Joni the "Shakespeare of our times", I was just beginning to think I was breaking through that familiar "first listening phase" to a satisfying appreciation of Shine, when I decided to listen to it in its entirety while driving from Austin to Dallas alone yesterday. Unfortunately, I couldn't help having the same reaction I'd had initially -- only even more deeply reinforced: It's beautiful Joni, and always will be, but to borrow terms from opera, the lyrics are often heavy handed, even clumsy oratorio rather than fine arias. The same work might be promising for a young new artist, but, following her distinguished previous work, it's difficult to accept that "this is it" lyrically in many instances. As for the social commentary, I find it generally weak and disappointingly shallow -- stating the obvious with no apparent depth of thought or investigation into alternatives and solutions, accompanied by a litany of blaming, shaming and name-calling (tried and true strategies that have not, as yet, motivated human beings to change, redirect or retool so far in human history, as far as I know.) And lyrics like "There's just too many people now/tool little land" are simply embarrassing -- human beings might be engaged in gross abuse, mismanagement and poor distribution of resources and destruction of the environment, but is there solid scientific evidence that there are actually too many people on Earth?!! Broad declarations like "There's so very little left of wild Eden Earth" and "Where have all the songbirds gone?" are sophomoric overstatements that undermine some of the instances that do truly "shine", both intellectually and artistically: Give us all the courage and the grace To make genius of this tragedy unfolding The genius to save this place But they're not enough. The need for dramatic turnaround in both the environmental and human-on-human violence arenas couldn't be more urgent, but is this news? And is there anything stated here that might awaken me if I'm not listening? No wisdom is offered, just the bemoaning of our current human condition and an urging to use the same old methods to achieve new and different results. Even the altered lyrics at the end of "If" -- You've got the fight/ You've got the insight -- indicate that the smart and "right" ones can fight and overpower the stupid (or at least ignorant) and "wrong" ones to save the day, and how is that thinking any different from the logic of, say, George W. Bush? Musically, the borrowing from Bob on "This Place" without some written admission or explanation in the CD booklet, the repetition of the intro to "Down To You" except for a single interval (movement from one note to the next) are inexplicable to me. And how I wish she had orchestrated everything, then asked someone to transcribe the parts (and help her with the phrasing and overall arranging, in places) and recorded live instruments to play those parts. As is, the "orchestrations" sound like a talented music student's first go at it -- solid in their initial concept, but often jagged and unmusical in execution. For the most part, definitely not genius. With a little more work, it could have been an enduring and triumphant work, but, as is, I don't find even any one track up to the calibre of her best work -- which is most of her catalog, needless to say. That makes me very sad. I truly wanted to be impressed and enthralled. I am happy to see that Joni has so many critics essentially in her corner this go around, which does motivate me to keep listening a bit. My overall perspective could change. This record is still young in my life. J ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:30:40 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: re: The Fox News Story Continues I don't know who OyVey is, but he or she has a font of knowledgeable quotes available and ready. All these were posted within minutes. I've digested them so listers can read them without scrolling through the interjected coments on the Huffington site. You may not agree with Joni regarding the church, but her commentary is in good company. I do not guarantee the accuracy of these quotes, but am simply passing on the text of his/her posts. Please read on. CC The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles? John Adams Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. Ambrose Bierce An atheist is a man who has no invisible means of support. John Buchan Believing in gods always causes confusion. Pearl S. Buck I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death. George Carlin The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history my be the hijacking of morality by religion. However valuable - even necessary - that may have been in enforcing good behavior on primitive peoples, their association is now counterproductive. Yet at the very moment when they should be decoupled, sanctimonious nitwits are calling for a return to morals based on superstition. Arthur C. Clarke For my own part I would as soon be descended from that heroic little monkey, who braved his dreaded enemy in order to save the life of his keeper; or from that old baboon, who, descending from the mountains, carried away in triumph his young comrade from a crowd of astonished dogs -- as from a savage who delights to torture his enemies, offers up bloody sacrifices, practices infanticide without remorse, treats his wives like slaves, knows no decency, and is haunted by the grossest superstitions. Charles Darwin I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass, escaped slave Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis. Sigmund Freud You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, quite intelligent enough. Aldous Huxley With soap baptism is a good thing. Robert G. Ingersoll It is a fine thing to establish oneb"s own religion in oneb"s heart, not to be dependent on tradition and second-hand ideals. Life will seem to you, later, not a lesser, but a greater thing. D.H. Lawrence There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages. Richard Lederer It will not do to investigate the subject of religion too closely, as it is apt to lead to infidelity. Abraham Lincoln During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. James Madison The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence. Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. Doug McLeod God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the miserable. They find not only sanctuary in His arms, but also a kind of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos; He will set them above their betters. H. L. Mencken The time appears to me to have come when it is the duty of all to make their dissent from religion known. John Stuart Mill Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat. John Morley When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. Anais Nin Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. Blaise Pascal I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said 'Stop! don't do it!' 'Why shouldn't I?' he said. I said, 'Well, there's so much to live for!' He said, 'Like what?' I said, 'Well...are you religious or atheist?' He said, 'Religious.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?' He said, 'Christian.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?' He said, 'Protestant.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?' He said, 'Baptist!' I said, 'Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist church of god or Baptist church of the lord?' He said, 'Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you original Baptist church of god, or are you reformed Baptist church of god?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!' I said, 'Die, heretic scum,' and pushed him off. Emo Phillips All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. Edgar Allen Poe The act of bellringing is symbolic of all proselytizing religions. It implies the pointless interference with the quiet of other people. Ezra Pound We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. Jonathan Swift The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the Tree of Knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your fucking mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions." Frank Zappa In general, the churches, visited by me often on weekdays... bore for me the same relation to God that billboards did to Coca-Cola; they promoted thirst without quenching it. John Updike There is a story, which is fairly well known, about when the missionaries came to Africa. They had the Bible and we, the natives, had the land. They said "Let us pray," and we dutifully shut our eyes. When we opened them, why, they now had the land and we had the Bible. Desmond M. Tutu When lip service to some mysterious deity permits bestiality on Wednesday and absolution on Sunday, cash me out. Frank Sinatra Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. Seneca the Younger The Bible is literature, not dogma. George Santayana Nature wants us to enjoy life to the full and die without giving it a second thought; Christianity wants the opposite. Sainte-Beuve All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. ~ Thomas Paine Religion is the end of love and honesty, the beginning of confusion; faith is a colorful hope or fear, the origin of folly. ~ Tao Te Ching If you pray for rain long enough, it eventually does fall. If you pray for floodwaters to abate, they eventually do. The same happens in the absence of prayers. ~ Steve Allen When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?" ~ Quentin Crisp The establishment of Christianity arrested the normal development of the physical sciences for over fifteen hundred years. ~ Andrew Dickson White Beware of the man whose god is in the skies. ~ George Bernard Shaw Religion is not merely the opium of the masses; it's the cyanide. ~ Tom Robbins Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world? ~ Epicurus You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. ~ Bertrand Russell There was a time when I believed in the story and the scheme of salvation, so far as I could understand it, just as I believed there was a Devil. Suddenly the light broke through to me and I saw a silly story, and each generation nowadays swallows it with greater difficulty. Why do people go on pretending about this Christianity? ~ H. G. Wells Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything. ~ Robert Heinlein The total absence of humor in the Bible is one of the most singular things in all literature. ~ Alfred North Whitehead I have examined all of the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our superstitions of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all founded on fables and mythology. Christianity has made one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. ~ Thomas Jefferson The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad. ~ Nietzsche Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion, several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isnt straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brothers path to happiness and heaven. ~ Mark Twain In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. ~ Thomas Jefferson I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own; a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms& ~ Albert Einstein, obituary All Bibles are man-made. ~ Thomas Edison Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? ~ Douglas Adams I sometimes think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability. ~ Oscar Wilde Missionaries are perfect nuisances and leave every place worse than they found it. ~ Charles Dickens I read about an Eskimo hunter who asked the local missionary priest, "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the priest, "not if you did not know." "Then why," asked the Eskimo earnestly, "did you tell me?" ~ Annie Dillard When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself. ~ Jack Gurney - "The Ruling Class" The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. ~ Thomas Paine In all the disputes, which have excited Christians against each other, Rome has invariably decided in favor of that opinion which tended most towards the suppression of the human intellect and the annihilation of the reasoning powers. ~ Voltaire The Church says that the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen its shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church. ~ Ferdinand Magellan If god created us in his image we have certainly returned the compliment. ~ Voltaire Which is it, is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's? ~ Nietzsche Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. ~ Napoleon So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence. Bertrand Russell The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by 'God' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying...it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity. Carl Sagan _________________________________________________________________ Explore the seven wonders of the world http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:27:51 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Things like that happen all the time. It's just disputes involving big name artists that go to court that we hear about. J Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: Well, if she's gotta pony up and pay Bobby for his melody, he'll have to turn around and give the same payment to Jimmy Kennedy for "borrowing" the melody for "Red Sails in the Sunset" for his "Beyond The Horizon" on the same album. Bob NP: Jefferson Airplane, "3/5 of a Mile in 10 Seconds" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:48:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: If, and all the 'adaptations' - --- Kate Bennett wrote: > I've seen very little criticism here on joni's new > work so I'm not sure why > you've reacted this way. And every artist must > endure both praise & > criticism of their work. It is not jealousy for > heaven sake, it is how it > is. Furthermore, if someone is going to claim that > a well respected work of > poetry needed a bit of work (or whatever her exact > words are, sorry I > forget), well then indeed criticism of her 'edits' > are very justified. Here's a great reaction to the critic issue from Philip Pullman's website (http://www.philip-pullman.com/about_the_writing.asp) Q: How does it feel to receive a good review or an award? PP: I feel pleased to live in a world where there are such good critics. A: And how does it feel to receive a bad review? PP: I feel sad to live in a world where there are such poor critics. Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:09:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: >>>Well, if she's gotta pony up and pay Bobby for his melody, he'll have to turn around and give the same payment to Jimmy Kennedy for "borrowing" the melody for "Red Sails in the Sunset" for his "Beyond The Horizon" on the same album. Bob Dylan has stolen way too much to be mad at Joni, Love and Theft has several blues standards with only slightly different lyrics that are simply credited to Dylan. Michael Flaherty - --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:12:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: Joni on NPR's "All Things Considered" TODAY, 9/28 waytoblue@comcast.net wrote: >>>No you don't. You speak for yourself only. Everyone's welcome to their own opinion but don't presume to speak for other people. Victor Oh, come on, Victor. So there's no evidence that Hancock rates Joni above the other songwriters from her era? How about Charles Mingus? Do you think he really considered anyone else? All I'm saying is they would agree with me regarding Joni. That doesn't mean they'd be right. Michael F. - --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:13:56 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: All this talk about Shine... And I was pleasantly surprised to see Shine being advertised on one of the most popular liberal blogsites, Daily Kos: http://www.dailykos.com/ Scroll down a little and there it is - cool! Bob NP: ELP, "The Endless Enigma, Pt.1" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:19:34 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: If, and all the 'adaptations' Catherine (and any other Pullman fans in or near Toronto), At one point I thought I might go to this and stay with my friend Lissa, but it doesn't look like I can get away. I understand that the Philip Pullman lecture is open to the public for a smaller fee: http://www.trinity.utoronto.ca/News_Events/Events/particles - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Catherine McKay Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 12:48 PM To: Kate Bennett; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: If, and all the 'adaptations' - --- Kate Bennett wrote: > I've seen very little criticism here on joni's new > work so I'm not sure why > you've reacted this way. And every artist must > endure both praise & > criticism of their work. It is not jealousy for > heaven sake, it is how it > is. Furthermore, if someone is going to claim that > a well respected work of > poetry needed a bit of work (or whatever her exact > words are, sorry I > forget), well then indeed criticism of her 'edits' > are very justified. Here's a great reaction to the critic issue from Philip Pullman's website (http://www.philip-pullman.com/about_the_writing.asp) Q: How does it feel to receive a good review or an award? PP: I feel pleased to live in a world where there are such good critics. A: And how does it feel to receive a bad review? PP: I feel sad to live in a world where there are such poor critics. Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:47:09 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: re: The Fox News Story Continues I'm not a Christian in the born again sense, though I dig the teachings of Jesus. Still, I was disappointed to hear Joni declare on "Shine" that ALL churches "love less and less", as it's easy to find churches in communities worldwide where love is very much alive -- and taking action. And thousands of Menonites, Presbyterians and other Christians gathered at the National Cathedral in DC this past March 16 and then walked in freezing temperatures in a candlelit "Christian Peace Witness" to the White House and stood there for hours to bring attention to their call for the end of the war in Iraq. (200 were even arrested.) That seems like a very loving and compassionate undertaking to me. J P.S. Does anyone know what she means by "all the prisons" the Catholic church owns? I know about the Magdelene Laundries, but are their current "prisons" -- metaphorically speaking or literal -- that the Catholic church owns or funds? Was she saying the Catholic church's teachings "imprison" believers? c Karma wrote:You may not agree with Joni regarding the church, but her commentary is in good company. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #397 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------