From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #393 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, September 29 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 393 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Undertakers ["Gordon MacKie" ] If, and all the 'adaptations' ["Jeff Hankins" ] Re: Joni instrumentals get me angry!!! [missblux@googlemail.com] A light that shines on me [Patti Parlette ] Re: The Anticlimatic Shine [LCStanley7@aol.com] Jumps out / Grooves you line [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Strong and Wrong ["Owen Duff" ] Sound of Silence, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Jumps out / Grooves you line [Merk54@aol.com] Re: Jumps out / Grooves you line [Bob Muller ] SV: Shine review in Sweden ["Marion Leffler" ] Re: Burma, njc [Sherelle Smith ] Re: A light that shines on me [jeannie ] Re: SV: Shine review in Sweden [jeannie ] Re: The Anticlimactic Shine [jeannie ] Re: Burma, njc [jeannie ] Re: If, and all the 'adaptations' [ajfashion@att.net] Re: The Anticlimactic Shine ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: The Anticlimactic Shine ["William Elliott" ] Re: If, and all the 'adaptations' [jeannie ] Re: If, and all the 'adaptations' NJC [ajfashion@att.net] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:50:32 +0100 From: "Gordon MacKie" Subject: Undertakers Yes, but you better not be talking on your cell phone or passing on the right while you're listening to it. Bob Unless you are in the UK of course. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:47:31 +0100 From: "Jeff Hankins" Subject: If, and all the 'adaptations' Yes to much of the above (praise for Shine) especially 'great driving music'. My car's lovin' it. Now, back to 'If', a special treat in many ways, because of the pre-release cringe of dread I suffered. But here's the thing: it's not the poem, Joni has used the poem and made something else - and for me the something else is, as I said earlier, more palatable and more enjoyable, even more thought-provoking as received wisdom because its particular selection of expression, its own melodic structure, its own leisurely song-rhythms have a more subtle immediacy, but at the same time offer natural pauses for reflection in ways which (any reading I've ever heard of) Kipling's poem simply don't - there we have a slightly embarrassing preachy rapid fire accumulation of wise saws leading to the most cringe-worthy 'you'll be a man' business. BUT again - I guess that's not the point. Even if (IF) I'd loved the poem, Joni's song is still something different, her own work. Which is what I always felt about 'Slouching Towards Bethlehem'. I love Yeats' 'Second Coming' and as a poem it has a complexity and a chilling beauty which repays reading after reading. But Joni's song is powerful in different ways, and I don't equate the two - any more than I would listen to 'Job's Sad Song' and bemoan the loss of theological complexities present in the scriptural book of Job! It's different. It's like comparing the film of Pride and Prejudice to the Jane Austen book. It's different - some plot - even text- selection and synthesis goes on , but then it becomes its own vision, its own piece of work And that's one of the reasons why we love her work, isn't it (Let me count the ways)? She shows us not only that life can beget art, but that Art can beget Art! And she's being doing it ever since she made a pretty little 'operetta' out of an O Henry story; ever since one little phrase from Saul Bellow send her to composing a neat little duality anthem; ever since an art film about an Australian dancer inspired a jokey Coke commercial; ever since a Tom Wolfe book sent her reflections to the Boho dance...and on and on and on. And of course it goes on, hearing other music, seeing paintings, reading books or poems, and making something out of it which will provoke and inspire in different ways. (Think of the two films referenced by songs on 'Shine') And hey, the circle goes on - because isn't that what she does for us too? - that's certainly what she'd want to do, I'd guess - making us want to make our own music - prodding us to paint our own pictures, write our own poems, make our own films, so that Art keeps on begetting art? Here endeth Jeff, Wales ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:33:32 +0100 From: "Gordon MacKie" Subject: Mickey Mouse does Joni Mitchell Hi All...twice in the one day eh! You can tell it's the weekend. Anyhoo, this may well have been covered by others but just in case not...whilst listening to Herbie Hancock's River...the Joni letters on the LIveDaily site, I switched 'mid-track' whilst listening to Norah Jones singing Court and Spark from the 'full album preview' to the 'single choice of track' which is offered directly below on the site. The full album track makes Jones's voice unusually high ( not quite Mickey Mouse but I thought it made a good header for my email) whereas the single track version contains a vocal most of us would identify as the 'normal' Jones voice. Any ideas as to why this is the case you talented muse-o's? It is also amuse-o. Have a listen and compare if you haven't already. If this has been covered earlier, I do apologise for not reading my posts properly Gordon in overcast and slightly chilly Glasgow ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:34:12 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Re: Joni singing Marvin Gaye Thanks Mark! Iv'e got to get that dvd. It looks like it was great show - and it's got most of the same musicians as the ones on the record. I even spotted what I now realize is Greg Leisz's pedal steel in the background. It's strange to think that in between that show and Shine many of us thought she had lost her inspiration or nerve or whatever it is - because she seems as vigorous in that clip as she does on the CD - at least so it seems to me. BN On 9/29/07, Mark Scott wrote: > Hello Bene, > > This clip is from the 'Painting With Words and Music' dvd. It was a > performance that was taped at Warner Brothers studios in Los Angeles > in a very intimate setting designed by Joni herself. Some of the JMDL > members were in the audience and got to meet her afterwords. Maybe > one or two of those lucky people will tell you about the experience. > > Mark E. in Seattle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Joni LIST" > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:50 AM > Subject: Joni singing Marvin Gaye > > > > For the first time I find it frustrating to be on digest - because I > > can't follow the Shine discussions and reviews. In my boredom I went > > on Youtube to see if anything was going on there, and I found this: > > Marvin Gaye's Trouble Man covered by Joni, Mark Isham, Brian Blade, > > Larry Klein, Greg Leisz, in 1998. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOsT-7n6X14 > > > > It's from 17/9 2007, I wonder if anyone saw it already.... > > > > Bored Bene ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 06:45:14 -0400 From: motitan@aol.com Subject: Any word then on CBS? ? Has this rumour of Joni appearing on CBS been confirmed?? I'm going to check out the site.? Any word?? - -Monika ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:50:46 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: NJC Subject: Re: Shine Q/pedal steel Aww thats SOcool!!!! Bn Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:28:29 +0200 From: "Ron" Subject: Re: Shine Q/pedal steel hi how about this take on slide guitar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0FdLzUfG-Q&mode=related&search= a teaspoon, held in his mouth :-) ron ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:12:23 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Shine review in Sweden Without being too biased I'd say that all the bad reviews are by fairly superficial reviewers. It's the same points of critique: 'very angry woman using drum machines' is all they hear. Too bad for them -- they miss out on a great listening experience and they will be embarrassed when they find that anyone who has bothered to listen carefully loves the album. I googled for reviews in Danish, and the first three ones I opened were good. There's one I'd like to translate at some point, because the blogger really knows what (s)he is talking about. Marion if you are curious, here it is (you'll be able to read it I'm sure): http://musikanmeldelser.smartlog.dk/joni-mitchell---shine-post113853 Shine on superficiality...! Bene ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:28:07 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Re: shine Hi Jim, that's interesting how you figured it out. I'll try to think of it like that next time I listen carefully. I don't have a favourite song on Shine, but 1WLS is definitely the one I have listened to the most, the one that intrigues me the most. Maybe because there are no words so it leaves me asking what she is trying to say. Uhm, maybe because the words of the other songs don't grip me as much as the ones from her more intricately poetic recordings. Now we just need Sherelle to add the colours! Where is she I wonder...? Oh and get well soon...! Bene On 9/29/07, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > > > Wow, it's great that Thursday matches your bear. Between the 2 of us, we > understand the whole, somehow. > > After I read your challenge, I decided to give it a shot. I imagined Joni > at a grand or spinet piano, her shoulders rolling toward the keys and I > focused on that. When it seemed like she exhaled and sat back, that was the > end of a verse. I didn't "hear" the resolution so much as I imagined I > "saw" it. > > By the end I had counted to seven. I think I can hear the sustain pedal > coming up against its stop, here and there. > > I'm sure you know "Paprika Plains" so you remember how she resolved it at > the end, over and over. She did that at the very end too, except more > subtly this year. > > Then I got a pad of paper and tried to hear the bear; I only came up with > four verses. That's when I realized there might be four verses of the main > theme, every 80 seconds, plus 3 "free" ones. > > I played it again and typed it up. I don't know what I'm saying exactly but > I'm sure someone will write a piano tab eventually. There are several types > of variations between verses. > > Thanks for writing back, Bene and Jamie. The Bard of Bel Air is back. > We've all been looking over her shoulder for a long time. > > sick as a dog today, > Jim L'Hommedieu > > From: > >For some reason I can't analyse music like > > this, when I hear a theme I can tell I've heard it before but I don't > > remember where in the piece. Shine on my scientific brain with its > > tunnel vision. > > > > This means that the bear that Jamie and I hear comes in right on > > Thursday! That is, on the third B. You hear it, very softly trodden > > for a bear, it goes quiet and then you hear it again. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 08:13:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: The Anticlimactic Shine - --- starvingartist wrote: > It's not about a synth guitar, it's about no soul. Interesting how we all perceive things in such different ways, because I think it's got a lotta soul. I don't care for TTT all that much, but am going to give it a listen because I haven't heard it for quite a while (first I have to find it!) For the most part, I like what I call mid-Joni the best. My favourite albums are "For the roses", "Hejira", "Don Juan", "Hissing". Right now I'm really liking "Shine." Will this feeling last? I don't know, but I was expecting to be underwhelmed and am pleasantly surprised by it. Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:43:13 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Re: Joni instrumentals get me angry!!! I took you seriously Victor! But like with a similar post from Marion a few weeks ago, I should have guessed, because I was thinking it was a bit of an odd experience you had there. You hear many odd things from people though, so it gets confusing at times...! There was also the time I told someone off for divulging his observations of Joni fixing dinner... and it turned out he was joking. Uhm... Bene Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:25:49 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Joni instrumentals get me angry!!! To clear up any possible misunderstanding, my last post was a complete farce ala the onion, and not meant to be taken seriously. Though maybe that was obvious. For the record, I would agree with Fred. Victor, definitely planning on playing some Joni this weekend at Wine South... ps. It just occurred to me, "I could drink a case of you", and "you are in my blood like holy wine" seem to fit right into the theme of the weekend! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:15:50 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: A light that shines on me Bon matin! Ever since I heard "Shine", I find that every morning when I wake up, it's the first thing that I hear: "Oh, let your little light shine Let your little light shine..." Any reason to resume! I am so grateful for this transfusion. When I find myself in times of trouble, Joni Mitchell comes to me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be. And in my hour of darkness she is standing right in front of me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be. Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be. Whisper words of wisdom, let it be. And when the broken hearted people living in the world agree, there will be an answer, let it be. For though they may be parted there is still a chance that they will see, there will be an answer. let it be. Let it be, let it be, ..... And when the night is cloudy, there is still a light, that shines on me, shine until tomorrow, let it be. I wake up to the sound of music, Joni Mitchell comes to me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be. Let it be, let it be, ..... Enjoy putting on the day! Peace, Patti P. _________________________________________________________________ Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:39:09 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: The Anticlimatic Shine There's nothing anticlimatic SHINE it in my opinion. It rocks! ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:04:11 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Jumps out / Grooves you line Is there a phrase in SHINE that particularly jumps out and grooves you? Mine is: "and sell them to California." I love it! ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:59:55 +0000 From: "Owen Duff" Subject: Re: Strong and Wrong Hi Danilo, I mentioned this song the other day in my post about the album. I think BDAG is the best song on there, it makes a big impact and is much more sophisticated than, say, Bad Dreams, both harmonically and lyrically (I'm really not into BD at all!). The only thing that bothers me (because I'm a total pedant) is that JM sings "Men love war, that's what history's for", which to me isn't grammatically correct. You couldn't ask the question "What is history for?" and answer it with "men love war". Maybe I'm wrong though... perhaps someone with a more scholarly grasp of the English language can reconcile this for me. Anyway, glad you like it too, O > > Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:53:42 +0200 > From: Danilo Monno > Subject: Strong And Wrong > > Am I the only one totally in love with that song? > I think that the piano work on SAW is the best I've heard on Shine... > > Hugs > > Danilo Lycos email has 300 Megabytes of free storage... Get it now at mail.lycos.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 11:05:08 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Sound of Silence, njc My 12 year old was watching this much to my pleasant surprise this morning. Timeless song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Kd8xp86reY&mode=related&search= ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 11:25:59 EDT From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: Re: Jumps out / Grooves you line I love the way she sings "Babble". Jack ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:34:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Jumps out / Grooves you line A couple: "Strange birds of appetite" which I love in that it's such a non-cliche metaphor. "What is God's will? Onward Christian soldiers, or thou shalt not kill?" Bob NP: Corry Hanna, "Disappearing Shore" - --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:38:58 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: Shine review in Sweden Thanks for the link, Bene! It was good to read a review that was both intelligent (in both meanings of the word) and knowledgeable. - For what it's worth, I did a google on all Swedish reviews, too, and there are quite a few. All the major papers and some local ones write about Shine, and it's a mixed reception. Some call the album outstanding while others find it boring. One review says she is lecturing rather than inspiring. Another one finds similarities (nusically) to THOSL and C&S. Most reviews do rate the album above average, only one below. I have been sick a couple of days so I have had time to listen to Shine repeatedly, although I am not sure my impression will last once my temperature is down to normal again.:-) I love One week last summer - although I have not yet detected the bear. Another immediate favourite is If, even though I think some of the changes Joni made are a little clumsy. I don't care much for "don't make intellect your game" and I cannot really see the reason for changing the original words here. I'm too weary to comment on every song right now but overall, I think it's a work of art, better than I'd hoped for! It's not at all angry or aggressive but rather sad yet hopeful. And I think that there is meaning also in dedicating this album to her grandchildren. The other day I read, "In every child, the world is born again", and maybe that is what Joni is hoping for. Or maybe I am... Have a nice weekend, everybody. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: missblux@googlemail.com [mailto:missblux@googlemail.com] Skickat: den 29 september 2007 13:12 Till: Marion Leffler; Joni LIST Dmne: Shine review in Sweden Without being too biased I'd say that all the bad reviews are by fairly superficial reviewers. It's the same points of critique: 'very angry woman using drum machines' is all they hear. Too bad for them -- they miss out on a great listening experience and they will be embarrassed when they find that anyone who has bothered to listen carefully loves the album. I googled for reviews in Danish, and the first three ones I opened were good. There's one I'd like to translate at some point, because the blogger really knows what (s)he is talking about. Marion if you are curious, here it is (you'll be able to read it I'm sure): http://musikanmeldelser.smartlog.dk/joni-mitchell---shine-post113853 Shine on superficiality...! Bene ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:22:04 +0000 From: Sherelle Smith Subject: Re: Burma, njc Hi Patti, I am having the same problem with my hotmail account especially when I switch the format to plain text first. I'm not sure what you are going to see but for now, everything looks normal from my end. It also makes reading my JMDL Digests a bit harder too. I just can't click on someone's email to reply to a thread anymore so please everyone, forgive my decreased participation. Still love you all to pieces! While there are some things I like about the new hotmail format, there are some things I wish I could have back with the old one. Yes, I was able to watch some of this on the BBC News that is broadcast viea some PBS stations. This situation is quite saddening and I find it so hard to believe that a country would resort to cutting off the Internet access of it's people. A very sad and disheartening situation indeed. Love, Sherelle Patti wrote: Danilo wrote: Hi guys! I just wanted to share my vision about what's going on in Burma (and I'll keepon calling it Burma though it's name has been changed to Myanmar).It's so shocking. Military against barefeet monks, it's a shame.People are dying and what can we do? We can wear all the red t-shirts we havebut will it really change the way things are? Russia keeps away from any kindof action (or re-action), China hypocritely (sorry if this word is wrong) andbarely attacks with light words a dictatorial government thay supported andstill supports, India is silent.What are our sleepy representatives doing for that? Nothing.What is UN doing to try and resolve the situation? Nothing. They've cut the internet out there so it will be harder to get some news. How long will it go on with us staring rolling our thumbs? **** Grazie for bringing this up, Danilo. I just got the latest digest, so chock full of wonderful stuff....tons of Joni (All Things Considered was AWESOME! Thank you!), a George Harrison movie in the works, Richard's beautiful reconnection w/ a h.s. friend (w/ a little Joni content to boot!), Fred Simon's MySpace & his music, and you know..... But it's this post that my heart and mind says to reply to. The situation there is horrifying. Here are these people begging for democracy (something the U.S. is purporting to bring to Iraq, such a joke...why don't we help THESE people, who really want it?), and they are getting gunned down by military madness and all communication is being stifled. Another breakdown of this century. If I had a heart, I'd cry. At least we have Joni back to help us make it through these waves. Vive la Joan! Peace, Patti P. P.S. Apologies for my last post (about Mags beautiful post) which came out so messy. I hate that! Hotmail changed recently and it seems that when I send one from the workplace, even though it looks fine and neat and well-spaced on the screen, it comes out all schmushed together. I hope it doesn't happen on this one, too. _________________________________________________________________ Explore the seven wonders of the world http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 11:41:54 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: A light that shines on me I wish I had myself some grandchildren like Joni does just so I could sing to them with all the love and determination I could muster, "Oh, let your little light shine.. Let your little light shine" Childhood tunes that let children express themselves simplistically but can yet lets them shine with the little bit wisdom they know they've gained, like it did for me with these little ditties: "I dream of Jeannie with the long brown hair" and "I'm a lonely little petunia in an onion patch" and "Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream, merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream" and "Are you sleeping? Are you sleeping? Sister Joan, Brother John, All the bells are ringing! All the bells are ringing! Ding, dong, ding Ding, dong, ding" And the people are just waking up, And they can hear you loud and clear. Right on schedule with the great plan and by no means running behind the times, this time, around! Sister Jean Patti Parlette wrote: Bon matin! Ever since I heard "Shine", I find that every morning when I wake up, it's the first thing that I hear: "Oh, let your little light shine Let your little light shine..." ___________________________________________ - --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 11:55:29 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: SV: Shine review in Sweden I hope you'll soon be feeling better, Marion, and may you be up and running about healthier, feeling stronger, and that way, we can hear what you think about the songs on Shine. Jean Marion Leffler wrote: Thanks for the link, Bene! It was good to read a review that was both intelligent (in both meanings of the word) and knowledgeable. - For what it's worth, I did a google on all Swedish reviews, too, and there are quite a few. All the major papers and some local ones write about Shine, and it's a mixed reception. Some call the album outstanding while others find it boring. One review says she is lecturing rather than inspiring. Another one finds similarities (nusically) to THOSL and C&S. Most reviews do rate the album above average, only one below. I have been sick a couple of days so I have had time to listen to Shine repeatedly, although I am not sure my impression will last once my temperature is down to normal again.:-) I love One week last summer - although I have not yet detected the bear. Another immediate favourite is If, even though I think some of the changes Joni made are a little clumsy. I don't care much for "don't make intellect your game" and I cannot really see the reason for changing the original words here. I'm too weary to comment on every song right now but overall, I think it's a work of art, better than I'd hoped for! It's not at all angry or aggressive but rather sad yet hopeful. And I think that there is meaning also in dedicating this album to her grandchildren. The other day I read, "In every child, the world is born again", and maybe that is what Joni is hoping for. Or maybe I am... Have a nice weekend, everybody. Marion - --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:22:00 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: The Anticlimactic Shine Hi Catherine and starving artist! I have so much to say about Shine, so I shall keep this simple because I cannot even bring myself up to any expression yet, because to me, Shine is just beginning. So, Catherine, your thoughts put my thoughts into a good perspective after reading where, you, starving artist, state that there is no soul in Shine?!? I don't want to grind against your grain, starving artist, but I don't have an inkling about what you're saying or feeling! Joni singing without her soul would be like me working for the darkness in sheer misery and hatred for mankind. These notions of no soul do not exist, by any means. If we'd go back to the times of the garden and get closer to our roots with Nature, where we belong, there you'd find a hearing aid that lets you hear the truth that the liars of lousy leadership fear with such passionate hatred because they've lost control of their own souls and dictate destruction for their constituents who have been kept in the dark ages of dungeons and demons. So, can you see, starving artist, why Joni must sing with her soul, on Shine? Jean Catherine McKay wrote: --- starvingartist wrote: > It's not about a synth guitar, it's about no soul. Interesting how we all perceive things in such different ways, because I think it's got a lotta soul. I don't care for TTT all that much, but am going to give it a listen because I haven't heard it for quite a while (first I have to find it!) For the most part, I like what I call mid-Joni the best. My favourite albums are "For the roses", "Hejira", "Don Juan", "Hissing". Right now I'm really liking "Shine." Will this feeling last? I don't know, but I was expecting to be underwhelmed and am pleasantly surprised by it. Catherine - --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:57:05 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: Burma, njc Trying to silence the silence of the monks, at this point, is utterly impossible and oh, so downright, stupid. If the monks need be the sacrificial lambs of Burma, I pray for them with all that I am. I'm certain that with every drop of innocent blood shed on the ground in Myanmar, the chants of the monk's mantras will deafen out the lies and their lights will shine in full beam all over the planet. Besides, how does this lousy Mickey Mouse leadership of Myanmar tend to do away with the internet? Those electrical generators are running on full throttle speed with the power of so many little lights burning in Burma! Jeannie Sherelle Smith wrote: I was able to watch some of this on the BBC News that is broadcast viea some PBS stations. This situation is quite saddening and I find it so hard to believe that a country would resort to cutting off the Internet access of it's people. A very sad and disheartening situation indeed. Love, Sherelle Patti wrote: Danilo wrote: Hi guys! I just wanted to share my vision about what's going on in Burma (and I'll keepon calling it Burma though it's name has been changed to Myanmar).It's so shocking. Military against barefeet monks, it's a shame.People are dying and what can we do? We can wear all the red t-shirts we havebut will it really change the way things are? Russia keeps away from any kindof action (or re-action), China hypocritely (sorry if this word is wrong) andbarely attacks with light words a dictatorial government thay supported andstill supports, India is silent.What are our sleepy representatives doing for that? Nothing.What is UN doing to try and resolve the situation? Nothing. They've cut the internet out there so it will be harder to get some news. How long will it go on with us staring rolling our thumbs? **** Grazie for bringing this up, Danilo. I just got the latest digest, so chock full of wonderful stuff....tons of Joni (All Things Considered was AWESOME! Thank you!), a George Harrison movie in the works, Richard's beautiful reconnection w/ a h.s. friend (w/ a little Joni content to boot!), Fred Simon's MySpace & his music, and you know..... But it's this post that my heart and mind says to reply to. The situation there is horrifying. Here are these people begging for democracy (something the U.S. is purporting to bring to Iraq, such a joke...why don't we help THESE people, who really want it?), and they are getting gunned down by military madness and all communication is being stifled. Another breakdown of this century. If I had a heart, I'd cry. At least we have Joni back to help us make it through these waves. Vive la Joan! Peace, Patti P. P.S. Apologies for my last post (about Mags beautiful post) which came out so messy. I hate that! Hotmail changed recently and it seems that when I send one from the workplace, even though it looks fine and neat and well-spaced on the screen, it comes out all schmushed together. I hope it doesn't happen on this one, too. _________________________________________________________________ Explore the seven wonders of the world http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE - --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 20:34:09 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: If, and all the 'adaptations' There's a long precedent in film that second-rate novels often lead to first-rate films and vice versa. My feeling is that Slouching Toward Bethelem fails as a song but that If is OK. Which makes sense, since the Yeats is a first-rate poem, and If is, at best, a fifth-rate one. - --Aleda - -------------- Original message from "Jeff Hankins" : -------------- > Yes to much of the above (praise for Shine) especially 'great driving > music'. My car's lovin' it. > Now, back to 'If', a special treat in many ways, because of the pre-release > cringe of dread I suffered. > But here's the thing: it's not the poem, Joni has used the poem and made > something else - and for me the something else is, as I said earlier, more > palatable and more enjoyable, even more thought-provoking as received wisdom > because its particular selection of expression, its own melodic structure, > its own leisurely song-rhythms have a more subtle immediacy, but at the same > time offer natural pauses for reflection in ways which (any reading I've > ever heard of) Kipling's poem simply don't - there we have a slightly > embarrassing preachy rapid fire accumulation of wise saws leading to the > most cringe-worthy 'you'll be a man' business. > BUT again - I guess that's not the point. Even if (IF) I'd loved the poem, > Joni's song is still something different, her own work. > > Which is what I always felt about 'Slouching Towards Bethlehem'. I love > Yeats' 'Second Coming' and as a poem it has a complexity and a chilling > beauty which repays reading after reading. But Joni's song is powerful in > different ways, and I don't equate the two - any more than I would listen to > 'Job's Sad Song' and bemoan the loss of theological complexities present in > the scriptural book of Job! It's different. It's like comparing the film of > Pride and Prejudice to the Jane Austen book. It's different - some plot - > even text- selection and synthesis goes on , but then it becomes its own > vision, its own piece of work > > And that's one of the reasons why we love her work, isn't it (Let me count > the ways)? She shows us not only that life can beget art, but that Art can > beget Art! And she's being doing it ever since she made a pretty little > 'operetta' out of an O Henry story; ever since one little phrase from Saul > Bellow send her to composing a neat little duality anthem; ever since an art > film about an Australian dancer inspired a jokey Coke commercial; ever since > a Tom Wolfe book sent her reflections to the Boho dance...and on and on and > on. And of course it goes on, hearing other music, seeing paintings, reading > books or poems, and making something out of it which will provoke and > inspire in different ways. (Think of the two films referenced by songs on > 'Shine') > > And hey, the circle goes on - because isn't that what she does for us too? - > that's certainly what she'd want to do, I'd guess - making us want to make > our own music - prodding us to paint our own pictures, write our own poems, > make our own films, so that Art keeps on begetting art? > Here endeth > Jeff, Wales ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 17:52:34 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: The Anticlimactic Shine I think he caught the synth-oboe part that sounds like a piece of "Down To You". At 2:39 - 2:40 in "One Weekend Last Summer", it's close to the notes when she sings, "everything comes and goes". But it's not an lift, it's a variation. As so many others have said, I hear pieces of everything on this CD, but it works for me. Like Dylan on "Modern Times", she's stealing from the best, eh? Jim L. Victor said, >Clarinet figures? William said >> same old clarinet figures over and over and over again. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:49:43 -0700 From: "William Elliott" Subject: Re: The Anticlimactic Shine Thanks for your affirmation, peckish artist. I'm still listening to it, also in the car, to and from work, in hopes of a thaw. There are aspects of it that I do like but they're far outweighed by what I dislike. While I understand the reason for its inclusion, Big Yellow Taxi is a pointless remake and Strong & Wrong is just downright irritating and sloppily thrown together as well as almost completely lacking in melody. I remember first listening to Hejira and thinking all the songs sounded flatly similar until, with the third or fourth listen, the brillance of it blasted through my initial thickness and I thought it one of the most amazing works I've ever heard. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case with Shine. I think the last great work she did was Turbulent Indigo. Everything that came after that was subpar, although I really did like Both Sides Now, but that doesn't really count, does it? <-----Original Message-----> From: starvingartist [starvingartist@att.net] Sent: 9/28/2007 9:38:41 PM To: William Elliott; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: The Anticlimactic Shine William: I agree with you. I also LOVE Joni's work, but not this record, nor the three previous for which I had the same response to "Shine"; I AM BORED by it. I bought it Tuesday (and only $10.99 at Circuit City,) came home, played it on my really good home system, thought "sounds like TTT," it's not just the preachy, negative and clumsy lyrics, IT'S THE TIRESOME MUSIC, no melody, same old clarinet figures over and over and over again. Today I thought "Well it's Joni you gotta give it a second chance- play it in the car,"- where in my dotage I seem to appreciate music more- played it in the car for a couple of miles and then ejected, because for me it is more than disappointing, it's hard to listen to. Largest network of startups. Find new startup opportunities. Click here.

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Unlimited Email Storage – POP3 – Calendar – SMS – Translator – Much More! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 17:02:04 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: If, and all the 'adaptations' Aleda, Whadda'ya tryin' to say? That Joni's version of Yeats' poem, 'Slouching Towards Bethlehem,' in song, fails because it's a first rate poem? Joni's adaptation of Kipling's 'If,' is okay by you because it's only a fifth rate poem? Where's the meaning of the sense you're speaking about. Aleda? :) That Joni cannot compete poetically or lyrically with a first rate poet but she can with a poet such as Kipling who wrote fifth rate poetry, maybe? This little statistical data you've provided is all static to me. First rate, fifth rate, is out of touch and obsolete to me because if I put it into a Shine ratio, would 'STB' be a first rate light ray and 'If" could only put out a fifth rate ray? For me, Joni's a great complement to any artistic endeavors she attempts to put her efforts into, with all of the demanding ups and downs it takes, she doesn't hesitate with that awesome, unwaivering artistic will of hers, if anyone likes it or not. "First rate," "fifth rate," "she can't compete with the big boys of poetry", "who's better?," "it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter," you know! She tries her best to let her little light shine and it's always signed and sealed with a little lace along the seams and sometimes it's even delivered with an angel's kiss from Up Above! And we're all better for it, in the long haul, after all! I, for one, cannot ask anymore from an artist. Joni gives and gives and gives! What more is needed? And, she has given new light to Yeat's and Kipling's poetry in a polite and positive style for the public. Joni's pre-requisites before attempting such artistic feats, I'm sure required a truckload of humility with the greatest respect for the authors. Joni's never been a tramp-ler of other people's work. I'm sorry if you don't care for Joni's STB nor care much for, 'If,' but these are the reasons I see that give Joni full poetic license to do what she darn well pleases with lines of her life. . And once again, Joni, being the unselfish dancer and poet that she is, can complete other people's poetry here in my heart anytime she wants and the beating rhyme is all about beauty in motion of the first degree, always! Okay, y'all, now back to Shine and Joni on this quiet Saturday evening, after I spend time with my little creatures in a bit. No interruptions tonight with technologies nor the land phones, even. I also began reading and studying Frida Kahlo deeper for some unexpected reason and I've got lots of Frida books galore all over the house. I love Frida now more than ever, so I won't get to Shine until late tonight. Frida and Joni are far out!! Okay, I'll leave 'ya now, Aleda, back to your Yeats and Kipling and their first and fifth rate poetry . I can't rationalize like that. I just feel and see the lights of every word and line of the poem shine on me..like little light punches of love hitting all through my heart and mind. Laters! Jeannie ajfashion@att.net wrote: There's a long precedent in film that second-rate novels often lead to first-rate films and vice versa. My feeling is that Slouching Toward Bethelem fails as a song but that If is OK. Which makes sense, since the Yeats is a first-rate poem, and If is, at best, a fifth-rate one. - --Aleda - -------------- Original message from "Jeff Hankins" : -------------- > Yes to much of the above (praise for Shine) especially 'great driving > music'. My car's lovin' it. > Now, back to 'If', a special treat in many ways, because of the pre-release > cringe of dread I suffered. > But here's the thing: it's not the poem, Joni has used the poem and made > something else - and for me the something else is, as I said earlier, more > palatable and more enjoyable, even more thought-provoking as received wisdom > because its particular selection of expression, its own melodic structure, > its own leisurely song-rhythms have a more subtle immediacy, but at the same > time offer natural pauses for reflection in ways which (any reading I've > ever heard of) Kipling's poem simply don't - there we have a slightly > embarrassing preachy rapid fire accumulation of wise saws leading to the > most cringe-worthy 'you'll be a man' business. > BUT again - I guess that's not the point. Even if (IF) I'd loved the poem, > Joni's song is still something different, her own work. > > Which is what I always felt about 'Slouching Towards Bethlehem'. I love > Yeats' 'Second Coming' and as a poem it has a complexity and a chilling > beauty which repays reading after reading. But Joni's song is powerful in > different ways, and I don't equate the two - any more than I would listen to > 'Job's Sad Song' and bemoan the loss of theological complexities present in > the scriptural book of Job! It's different. It's like comparing the film of > Pride and Prejudice to the Jane Austen book. It's different - some plot - > even text- selection and synthesis goes on , but then it becomes its own > vision, its own piece of work > > And that's one of the reasons why we love her work, isn't it (Let me count > the ways)? She shows us not only that life can beget art, but that Art can > beget Art! And she's being doing it ever since she made a pretty little > 'operetta' out of an O Henry story; ever since one little phrase from Saul > Bellow send her to composing a neat little duality anthem; ever since an art > film about an Australian dancer inspired a jokey Coke commercial; ever since > a Tom Wolfe book sent her reflections to the Boho dance...and on and on and > on. And of course it goes on, hearing other music, seeing paintings, reading > books or poems, and making something out of it which will provoke and > inspire in different ways. (Think of the two films referenced by songs on > 'Shine') > > And hey, the circle goes on - because isn't that what she does for us too? - > that's certainly what she'd want to do, I'd guess - making us want to make > our own music - prodding us to paint our own pictures, write our own poems, > make our own films, so that Art keeps on begetting art? > Here endeth > Jeff, Wales - --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:10:36 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: If, and all the 'adaptations' NJC [Top-posting intentionally] Jeannie, Poems and lyrics are not the same thing. Perhaps the easiest distinction is that lyrics are always better with their music than they are alone. Whereas poems are not better when set to music. [Is there an echo in here? Have I not stated this several times already?] This does not mean poems are better than lyrics or lyrics better than poems; they are simply different, like apples and oranges, or painting and sculpture. "If," the poem, is a cloying, sentimental, poorly written 'poem' that no poet or poetry critic in the 20th or 21st century bothers to think about. I liked it when I was 13 and reading Ayn Rand (it was Rand's favorite poem) but by my next birthday I saw how utterly sappy it was. (Not to mention how pathological Rand was.) "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" is regarded as one of the great poems of the twentieth century; if you polled poets and poetry critics and scholars, I daresay it would easily be in their top ten greatest poems, if not their top five. It's a poem that addresses a very specific moment in world history, and yet I read it, and wept as I read it, to a class the day after the first President Bush started bombing Iraq. It is, quite simply, a peerless work of art. Mitchell's setting it to music was a disaster, and diminished both her work and Yeats's. > Where's the meaning of the sense you're speaking about. Aleda? :) > That Joni cannot compete poetically or lyrically with a first rate poet but > she can with a poet such as Kipling who wrote fifth rate poetry, maybe? Well, I'm sure as heck not talking about competition here, Jeannie. (As Wm Blake said, there is not competition among true artists.) I don't know how to state this any more clearly than I have before, in post after post, but I love Joni Mitchell, I think she is a genius; I think her lyrics are, along with Sondheim's, two of the great achievements of the 20th (and now 21st) century; I would give my right arm to write one phrase as good as some of hers, etc, etc, etc, etc. > "First rate," "fifth rate," "she can't compete with the big boys of poetry" Oh please. This has nothing to do with gender. She can't compete with the big boys and girls of poetry BECAUSE SHE ISN'T A POET. The big boys and girls of poetry can't compete with Mitchell because they're not musicians and / or lyricists. Is this really that hard to comprehend? I was simply saying that there is a long history of great films being made from second-rate novels and _not_ a long history of great films being made from great novels. It was an analogy. An A-N-A-L-O-G-Y. Not an insult to a woman who has enriched my life almost daily for thirty-five years. If "Shine" makes you happy, then good for you. I personally take Mitchell pretty seriously, and don't feel the need to lead cheers on her behalf, but if that is the way you want to express yourself, that's your right, and I'm happy you're excited. I have loved and adored Joni Mitchell since the first album I ever listened to closely, which was FTR, in the spring of 1973. This is not an attack on her. It was my opinion that "If" is a much more successful song than was STB. And I decided to explain, briefly, the reasons why I hold that opinion. > Okay, I'll leave 'ya now, Aleda, back to your Yeats and Kipling and their > first and fifth rate poetry . I can't rationalize like that. I just feel and see > the lights of every word and line of the poem shine on me..like little light > punches of love hitting all through my heart and mind. Laters! I don't have a clue what you mean by "rationalize" in the paragraph above (I've just never seen thw word used that way), but I hope there's room on this list for people to discuss their reactions--positive, so-so, or negative--to Mitchell's music. I would suggest that "feeling" is just one way to approach art, the gateway drug, as it were, and that knowledge can enhance enormously one's appreciation--and feeling--for art. Not sure how poor Frida Kahlo got into your post, but I'm a tremendous admirer of her work and have been for three decades. Not to sound too "rational" or anything, but I found my appreciation for her painting greatly enhanced by reading the long Hayden Herrara biography of her. While I'm no longer a newbie, I'm still newer to this list than many people. I'd appreciate being included in whatever memo goes out telling list members they aren't allowed to say anything even remotely critical about Mitchell's work without being deemed some kind of pariah. Or that we all have to don pleated skirts and lead the chorus of "Gimme a J, gimme an O, gimme an N, gimme an I! What's that spell--JONI!" I respect her work much more than that. Peace, Aleda - -------------- Original message from jeannie : -------------- > Aleda, > > Whadda'ya tryin' to say? > > That Joni's version of Yeats' poem, 'Slouching Towards Bethlehem,' in song, > fails because it's a first rate poem? > > Joni's adaptation of Kipling's 'If,' is okay by you because it's only a fifth > rate poem? > > Where's the meaning of the sense you're speaking about. Aleda? :) > > That Joni cannot compete poetically or lyrically with a first rate poet but > she can with a poet such as Kipling who wrote fifth rate poetry, maybe? > > This little statistical data you've provided is all static to me. > First rate, fifth rate, is out of touch and obsolete to me because if I put it > into a Shine ratio, would 'STB' be a first rate light ray and 'If" could only > put out a fifth rate ray? > > For me, Joni's a great complement to any artistic endeavors she attempts to > put her efforts into, with all of the demanding ups and downs it takes, she > doesn't hesitate with that awesome, unwaivering artistic will of hers, if anyone > likes it or not. > > "First rate," "fifth rate," "she can't compete with the big boys of poetry", > "who's better?," "it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter," you > know! > > She tries her best to let her little light shine and it's always signed and > sealed with a little lace along the seams and sometimes it's even delivered with > an angel's kiss from Up Above! > And we're all better for it, in the long haul, after all! > I, for one, cannot ask anymore from an artist. > Joni gives and gives and gives! > What more is needed? > > And, she has given new light to Yeat's and Kipling's poetry in a polite and > positive style for the public. Joni's pre-requisites before attempting such > artistic feats, I'm sure required a truckload of humility with the greatest > respect for the authors. Joni's never been a tramp-ler of other people's work. > I'm sorry if you don't care for Joni's STB nor care much for, 'If,' but these > are the reasons I see that give Joni full poetic license to do what she darn > well pleases with lines of her life. > . > And once again, Joni, being the unselfish dancer and poet that she is, can > complete other people's poetry here in my heart anytime she wants and the > beating rhyme is all about beauty in motion of the first degree, always! > > Okay, y'all, now back to Shine and Joni on this quiet Saturday evening, after > I spend time with my little creatures in a bit. No interruptions tonight with > technologies nor the land phones, even. > I also began reading and studying Frida Kahlo deeper for some unexpected > reason and I've got lots of Frida books galore all over the house. I love Frida > now more than ever, so I won't get to Shine until late tonight. Frida and Joni > are far out!! > > Okay, I'll leave 'ya now, Aleda, back to your Yeats and Kipling and their > first and fifth rate poetry . I can't rationalize like that. I just feel and see > the lights of every word and line of the poem shine on me..like little light > punches of love hitting all through my heart and mind. Laters! > > Jeannie > > > ajfashion@att.net wrote: > There's a long precedent in film that second-rate novels > often lead to first-rate films and vice versa. My feeling is > that Slouching Toward Bethelem fails as a song but that > If is OK. Which makes sense, since the Yeats is a first-rate > poem, and If is, at best, a fifth-rate one. > > --Aleda > > -------------- Original message from "Jeff Hankins" : -------------- > > > > Yes to much of the above (praise for Shine) especially 'great driving > > music'. My car's lovin' it. > > Now, back to 'If', a special treat in many ways, because of the pre-release > > cringe of dread I suffered. > > But here's the thing: it's not the poem, Joni has used the poem and made > > something else - and for me the something else is, as I said earlier, more > > palatable and more enjoyable, even more thought-provoking as received wisdom > > because its particular selection of expression, its own melodic structure, > > its own leisurely song-rhythms have a more subtle immediacy, but at the same > > time offer natural pauses for reflection in ways which (any reading I've > > ever heard of) Kipling's poem simply don't - there we have a slightly > > embarrassing preachy rapid fire accumulation of wise saws leading to the > > most cringe-worthy 'you'll be a man' business. > > BUT again - I guess that's not the point. Even if (IF) I'd loved the poem, > > Joni's song is still something different, her own work. > > > > Which is what I always felt about 'Slouching Towards Bethlehem'. I love > > Yeats' 'Second Coming' and as a poem it has a complexity and a chilling > > beauty which repays reading after reading. But Joni's song is powerful in > > different ways, and I don't equate the two - any more than I would listen to > > 'Job's Sad Song' and bemoan the loss of theological complexities present in > > the scriptural book of Job! It's different. It's like comparing the film of > > Pride and Prejudice to the Jane Austen book. It's different - some plot - > > even text- selection and synthesis goes on , but then it becomes its own > > vision, its own piece of work > > > > And that's one of the reasons why we love her work, isn't it (Let me count > > the ways)? She shows us not only that life can beget art, but that Art can > > beget Art! And she's being doing it ever since she made a pretty little > > 'operetta' out of an O Henry story; ever since one little phrase from Saul > > Bellow send her to composing a neat little duality anthem; ever since an art > > film about an Australian dancer inspired a jokey Coke commercial; ever since > > a Tom Wolfe book sent her reflections to the Boho dance...and on and on and > > on. And of course it goes on, hearing other music, seeing paintings, reading > > books or poems, and making something out of it which will provoke and > > inspire in different ways. (Think of the two films referenced by songs on > > 'Shine') > > > > And hey, the circle goes on - because isn't that what she does for us too? - > > that's certainly what she'd want to do, I'd guess - making us want to make > > our own music - prodding us to paint our own pictures, write our own poems, > > make our own films, so that Art keeps on begetting art? > > Here endeth > > Jeff, Wales > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on > Yahoo! TV. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #393 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------