From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #360 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, September 14 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 360 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: spam: SV: Night of the iguana ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics [ajfashion@att.net] Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc NJC [ajfashion@att.net] Re: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics [ajfashion@att.net] Re: njc, throwing the lightness on these things [jeannie ] Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc NJC [ajfashion@att.net] Matriarchy and war (njc) [] Joni poet [] Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [Victor Johnson ] Re: Jonis' bad poetry [Motitan@aol.com] NJC Stephen Stills concert pictures [Motitan@aol.com] for the record NJC [Mags ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:44:55 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: spam: SV: Night of the iguana I guess we'll all have to rent the movie to know for sure if that is all this song is about! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:04:10 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics - -------------- Original message from David Marine : -------------- > Hi, Joni list! > [Just lost my response. I hate web-based email.] > > I'm not sure that the New Yorker is the country's most "prestigious > venue" for poetry. What about the New York Review of Books? At any > rate, I don't think anyone should turn to Conde Nast to tell them > what is or is not poetry. The New Yorker is the most prestigious venue, hands down. NY Review of Books doesn't come close in terms of exposure, prestige, and desire to be published there, In fact, the NYROB probably isn't in the top five of places poets would like to be published. Aside from owning The New Yorker, Conde Nast has nothing to do with this. It's Alice Quinn, a very smart woman, and a former editor at Knopf, the most prestigious place to publish a volume of poetry in the US. > > What's the point of getting too caught up in semantics? So far, the > distinctions that I've seen made here between poetry and lyrics (a > poem has its own internal music and rhythm, etc.) touch on some of > the issues that one deals with when translating poetry. There are > those who would argue that poetry cannot or should not be translated > into a different language, or re-structured into a song: that too > much is lost or perverted. I'm in the camp that likes "Slouching" and > "Love". I also like the gorgeous way that she worked with the T.S. > Eliot lines in "Moon at the Window". I've always assumed that this > was an offshoot of her work on Mingus. Did I miss the discussion of > the sanctity of Eliot's lyrics? The sanctity of Eliot's poems was lost, so heinously and violently, because of the excreable Andrew Lloyd Webber (and then, piling insult upon insult, the Barry Manilow cover of Memories) that this is a sad outrage many of us would prefer not to recall. It traumatized me so badly 25 years ago. > > Serious poetry did well in the 20th century, but it's not flourishing > right now. Few read it, and fewer still have the ability to read it > with a critical eye (or ear). Outside of academic circles, I'm not > sure anyone does. So I understand when those who love poetry fight > the good fight. They're attempting to protect what's left of > "serious" poetry, and see "lyrics as poetry", rap, poetry "slams" and > such as a threat to the delicate, divine, and inspired work of those > who are writing within more traditional parameters. I can see both > sides (now), but I don't see what's served by drawing up these > "borderlines". We're not talking borderlines; we're talking definitions. A lemon and a lime are both citrus; both tart; both ovoid; and occasionally interchangeable. But they are not the same thing. (I need lemon in iced tea and with some fish; I need lime--and not lemon--in my Boodles and tonic.) Poems are poems. Lyrics are lyrics. FWIW I admire spoken word poetry very much, and encourage students to explore it, and other uses of language including hiphop. I think Emimen is brilliant (problematic in what he says, but utterly brilliant with language), but I don't think he's a poet. If it were as easy to interchange them as some people on this list seem to think, I promise you there would be several thousand poets, myself probably among them, trying to write lyrics tonight. But we can't. We are limes. Lyricists are lemons. Or vice versa. And it's pretty funny to think of poets protecting a territory where the odds of making it are about the same as making it into professional sports, and yet the terrestrial rewards are, well, minimal. - --Aleda ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:07:28 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc NJC - -------------- Original message from Bob Muller : -------------- > > sensitive, nurturing, care-giver.> > > I hate generalizations; they're ALWAYS wrong. Especially here on the JMDL. > > Look no further than this link to see that women are just as cruel and > monstrous as men. But be forewarned - it ain't pretty. > > http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0911071logansix1.html > Obviously there have been many, many monsters who were women (I'm thinking of the moment of those two mothers in West Va who, in collusion, with their sons, tortured and sexually abused and kidnapped that young woman.) I also don't think any of the men on this list, or the sons of anyone on this list, or any of my male friends, love war. Nonetheless because men have always had the power, and continue to have it, a generalization that puts the burden of history on men is unfair. - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:10:40 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics I may withdraw from this discussion until I've actually heard the song. Because there's some unnecessary and pointless confusion in this discussion. Does B & N ship preordered stuff to you the day it comes out (as they do with the Harry Potter books) (which BTW I don't read but just know about)? It'd be a lot more fun to talk about the song as a song, than try to explain what makes a poem a poem. - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:05:02 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: njc, throwing the lightness on these things Patti, let's trying laughing it all away by means of comprehension, patience and tolerance. Fussing on the JMDL for a little Joni line? Imagine. What if we were all men and women of absolute power--could these few words possibly lead us into a wide world full of other people's little wars? Jeannie Patti Parlette wrote: This joint is jumpin'! Locals and lurkers are up kicking and shaking on the floor...it's wunderbar! Just throwing the lightness on these things while so many are digging down deep these days. To be expected, of course, with such excitement in the air, and so many educated and very intelligent people on this list. Not to mention the such different sets of circumstance! So just at this moment of the world I'm kind of sitting in a nice lecture hall, feeling like an eager but shy freshman, listening to very good teachers, and trying to absorb it all. "Thank you for your presence and for being here and everything. Thank you very much!" Love, Patti P., sitting in miles of aisles, moving a little toward the back for the next class _________________________________________________________________ Test your celebrity IQ. Play Red Carpet Reveal and earn great prizes! http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_hotmailtextlink2 - --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:52:50 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: SV: Jonis' bad poetry From: "Marion Leffler" >I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an > over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied > through > history. Not really. War is about aquiring real estate and resources. Sure differences in culture and belief are trotted out as reasons, but they are really only excuses. War is about: you have something. I want it. I'm taking it. God said I could. That's all, plus or minus 1 percent. And it's all done by men. I think Joni's points stand up to the facts. We are all pretty much descendants of the conquerers or the conquered. The possible exeption being some Indians deep in the Amazon, if there are any left. The difference between this song and Shadows & Light is that the former doesn't mince any words, the latter is pretty much a series of vague philosophical statements. RR, who just heard Bush's 'stay the course' speech and wonders if there's ever been anyone more full of shit. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:16:54 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc NJC - -------------- Original message from ajfashion@att.net: -------------- > Nonetheless because men have always had the power, and > continue to have it, a generalization that puts the burden of > history on men is unfair. - -------------- Original message from ajfashion@att.net: -------------- > Nonetheless because men have always had the power, and > continue to have it, a generalization that puts the burden of > history on men is unfair. I made a typo here: that should read: a generalization that puts the burden of history on men is fair. - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:22:24 -0700 From: Subject: Matriarchy and war (njc) Jeannie, If women ruled, let's just say in the U.S., and there were a group of men who invaded and insisted the women give up all their rights, (civil and otherwise), wear a burka, be one of several wives, and be subjected to regular beatings and stonings, don't you think they may want to encourage their men to defend them and their way of life? I'm sure over the course of history many women have had influence on men to go to war to protect their wives and children and way of life. I recall that ancient Ireland was matriarchal but they have a long history of skirmishes to protect their "homeland." On the other hand, men who individually abuse or other terrorize women are not living up to any real manly ideal. They are actually weak and flawed. Sad, but best to be avoided if they cannot change. As for dealing with petty women in your life, I hear you. You can't really make reason of it. Many probably have hormonal imbalances or otherwise need a visit to a physician for their own sake and health. Some are just lost, bored or never really knew the higher meaning. It's sadder for them than for you. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:37:36 -0700 From: Subject: Joni poet I have been enjoying the Joni as poet or not thread. It is interesting to have some of the rules articulated. While many don't see or know the rules and may just love the poetic lyrics, I do think some of Joni's song lyrics might possibly qualify as the real thing. I had a friend who had no interest in Joni - looked at her as just another "hippie from the 60s" - ha! I never played her music for him but did show him her lyrics from Dog Eat Dog one night. He was literally knocked off his feet and started ranting of her genius. I think there are a few songs on that album that don't need music to convey the story. I think Fiction and Sweet Sucker Dance qualify and others may be Chair in the Sky, The Arrangement, Electricity and more. I do agree that Shine is not her best lyrically at all (but I like Hana and Night of the Iguana) but her music is the leader on this one. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:26:11 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry On Sep 13, 2007, at 9:42 PM, ajfashion@att.net wrote: > -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" > : -------------- > > >> I still don't get all the fuss. If you do not want to regard these >> song >> lyrics as poems, it's up to you. > > A poem is a recognizable thing, just as is a beautiful piece > of pottery by a skilled potter, a painting by a skilled painter, > an etude by a skilled composer. What happens, though, > in our culture, is that, because everyone uses language, > many people think what they joy down in their notebooks > is poetry. It's not. I'm happy if it gives them and their loved > ones pleasure; I'm all for personal expression; but no one > writes a good poem without a long apprenticeship and an > unfathomable committment to pursue something that offers > few worldly rewards. I would not agree with this statement. Suppose the discussion was about music. We could sit here all day and argue about what is music and what isn't. Where I go to school, at Georgia State University music school, there are some people with the attitude that the only music worth listening to is classical...to them anything else is a waste of time and they don't consider it real music, which they can believe if they wish, though its a very narrow view of what is music and what isn't and extremely ignorant to be honest. As far as poetry is concerned, a song lyric can certainly be considered a poem. Song are often incredibly poetic and many can stand alone without music. Sure, there are people who have no talent though maybe think they do. And yes, there are poets who write poetry (I studied with one at Guilford, Ann Deagon.) But just because someone is not a recognized, accomplished poet/scholar does not mean they can not write a good/ beautiful poem. When I lived in Asheville, I often went to poetry readings/open mics and heard several poems I thought were rather good by poets who were rather young actually. My friend Holley's daughter Laura ( who Paz has met) wrote some poetry around when she was 14 that completely blew me away. She's currently in her senior year at Davidson School of the Arts in Augusta, one of the best schools in the country, and 14th in her class. Anyway, there is no law that determines what is a poem and what isn't. It's certainly something that is subjective. And someone could write song that totally sucks. But that doesn't mean its not a song. Victor PS. The Simpsons did a great spoof on this very topic in 2006- from Wikipedia Moena Lisa is the sixth episode of the eighteenth season of The Simpsons, which originally aired on 19 November 2006. It was written by Matt Warburton and directed by Mark Kirkland. The Simpson family returns home at night to find Moe waiting for them outside their door. Sneaking into their own house, they receive a message from Moe saying that Homer had betrayed him. Impressed by the emotional depth of the letter, Lisa decides to do her report on Moe. At Moes hotel room (where he lives) Lisa discovers Moe has been writing his random thoughts on post-it notes. She arranges them and gives them a title of her own invention, and sends it to a poetry journal where it becomes a smash hit, and he is acclaimed as a Charles Bukowski-like poet. Moe is invited to Wordloaf, a writers convention in Vermont, by Tom Wolfe (who voices himself). While driving there, Homer avoids drinking and driving by driving only between sips of beer. Moe and the Simpsons finally arrive at the convention while being pursued by the police of every state in New England. At the convention, Moe mingles among noted authors Tom Wolfe, Gore Vidal, Michael Chabon and Jonathan Franzen. After Gore Vidal is ejected from the gathering when he reveals he took the titles of his various books from things he saw, as opposed to creating the title himself as any true author does, Moe takes credit for the poems name saying it was a solo effort. This breaks Lisas heart and she abandons him. Moe seems to show no remorse and even asks Lisa to craft another poem for him, but she refuses. Moe finally write a poem himself, only to have it eaten by ducks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:15:06 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Night of the iguana Well waddayaknow. Thanks Les. Do I wind a toaster? >I just read a summary of the story from The Night of the Iguana and indeed the main protagonist, while a man of the cloth, did molest a young person - said young person, now somewhat grown up shows up as part of tour group on the bus he's tour director for. So those dots seem to join up. Les (london)< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:54:41 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Jonis' bad poetry "Men love war! That's what history' s for. History..." I actually really like these lyrics so I find it ironic that there is a discussion about the validity of them. Certainly this is no history lesson nor is Joni going into the dynamics of war. How could you fit why wars start and all those reasons in a song when we can't even talk about that simply in conversation? It surely isn't simple and the point of the song isn't that topic. With Joni's statement, "men love war," she is saying what it seems like. We as human beings have always known war. The one thing that doesn't change is war. Sure, where it happens, why it happens, how it happens--all that changes but there has always been war and there always will be war. As long as the human species continues on, there will be war sadly. We as people are the reason behind war. That is all Joni is saying I believe. I don't necessarily think it is an issue of trying to place the fault of war on men and men only. I don't think the idea of gender is too important in these lyrics though certainly men have been the ones to start war as they are the ones in power. Seemingly, "men love war" because there is always a war somewhere on the brink. If they didn't "love war" why would war always exist? I think that is all she is saying. Of course you could get into the specifics and point out that this man and that man and your neighbor and your mailman and people on this list and the cashier at the store you went to don't love war but Joni is simply stating her opinion that obviously there are those who do love war as war always exists... - -Monika ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:16:36 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: NJC Stephen Stills concert pictures A while ago I posted my review after seeing Stephen Stills in concert 06/17/07 at the House of Blues in Cleveland, OH. I only took a handful of pictures and unfortunately (I had used a cheap, disposable camera) only two came out a s decent pictures. Normally I would just say to email me if interested and I would send you the pictures but since it took me 13 minutes to send out two pictures as an attachment just now, I will deny that and offer this: _http://www.myspace.com/onemanband1973_ (http://www.myspace.com/onemanband1973) (copy and paste) That is my MySpace and if you go into my pictures (Page 2 in particular) you will find the two Stephen Stills concert pictures. Please do enjoy if you'd like! - -Monika, who at the end of the month will join the rest of you folks on high speed internet thus not dealing with taking 13 minutes to send out two lousy photos.... ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:31:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Mags Subject: for the record NJC hey Mark, you quoted me as saying something that I did not say, just for the record,okay? not a biggie, just wanted to say, just so. Mags see below: Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:33:12 +0300 From: "Mark L. Levinson" Subject: re: Joni's bad poetry? Mags wrote: > It's probably an old > discussion, but I'd like to know how you distinguish poetry from > lyrics and why you consider this one to be bad poetry. - --------------------------------- Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #360 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------