From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #359 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, September 13 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 359 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [waytoblue@comcast.net] RE: Mercy, Mercy, Mercy NJC ["mike pritchard" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2007 #355 ["millies" ] man's will to hurt NJC [Mags ] re: Joni's bad poetry? ["Mark L. Levinson" ] NJC: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry ["Rob Argento" ] Re: NJC Also appearing on J-Day [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC - Also appearing on J-Day [Wtking59@cs.com] Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics [David Marine ] Re: NJC Also appearing on J-Day [] Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc [jeannie ] Re: NJC Also appearing on J-Day [Bob Muller ] NJC Mercy, Mercy, Mercy ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc NJC [Bob Muller ] Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc NJC [Victor Johnson ] Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [ajfashion@att.net] Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc NJC [jeannie > Talk about coming on strong! You've repeatedly tried to dismiss > everything we say. And yet you can allow yourself to go on at length > about just about any subject and you repeatedly insist that your > opinion is tho only one that matters. > > I shall try to ignore your posts in the future. > > > Quoting Marion Leffler : > > > I still don't get all the fuss. If you do not want to regard these song > > lyrics as poems, it's up to you. Your critical-aesthetic discussions are > > intellectual excercises for your pleasure, and anybody else*s who cares to ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:41:48 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: RE: Mercy, Mercy, Mercy NJC >>Around this house we are saddened at the passing of Joe Zawinul. Austrian soul! (who knew?)<< Maybe his 'From Vienna, with love' on the twofer CDs 'Rise and Fall of the Third Stream' / 'Money in the Pocket' would have given you a clue? Missing him here already too. Saw him play here 3 or 4 years ago and was wonderful to see and hear. Nice headgear too. mike in bcn npimh - 'A remark you made', as good as it gets. Don't take it from me, ask Fred Simon. Also npimh - Jazz Crusaders playing 'Requiem for Joe' (Louis). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:40:58 +1000 From: "millies" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2007 #355 Vietnam Memorial Wall Defaced This Weekend sad........ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:49:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Mags Subject: man's will to hurt NJC prompted by the discussions on the list of late re: violence over time/"history", this book came to mind. "Man's Will To Hurt, Investigating the Causes Supports and Varieties of His Violence" author Joseph A. Kuypers ISBN 1895686067 Fernwood Publishing Halifax, Nova Scotia. 1992 it's a rather powerful book, which opens up with the argument that there exists, a social construct and acceptance of male violence in our world. As a student of life, I have found the evidence cited in this book more and more relevant as time goes on, as the petty wars explode into the ugliness we see in our midst. I am not saying ALL men are violent, and neither is Kuypers. The notion of a willingness to hurt (for personal gain) is compelling. One of the many strengths in his book is that he cites examples in the every day. (sports, video games, war. As I read and reread this book, there were and continue to be many aha moments, but why should I be surprised, she asks . And yet. I just want to understand. Is there a need to explain further? Sure, I'll give you the back cover write up . I think it might be written by someone at the Publishing house. Not sure. on the back cover: The author of this book contends that men have a will to hurt. He argues that, as a social construction, men's use and threat of pain achieves many "benefits": power, profit, pleasure, sexual legitimacy and membership in male organized society, among others. This book identifies how men code their will to hurt to make it moral, and how they ignore the drastic realities of excessive male violence. It shows how male violence is entrenched in society and infused into concepts of masculinity and sexuality. It identifies how men "pump up" their violence while denying that they are doing anything wrong. " ***** when copying out the above, I could not help but be reminded of the many images of violence/war/male violence that Joni has written about. And perhaps that is one of the points, raising awareness. It seems to me that she is still crying out : "stop before it's too late." I want to make this clear, I'm not going on an anti-male cam-pain here at all. I hold a deep understanding and compassion that many men are victims/affected by the social constructs which breed and support violence. In raising these issues, I'll be very interested in what others think. Mags "let me speak, let me spit out my bitterness" -JM - --------------------------------- All new Yahoo! Mail - --------------------------------- Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:33:12 +0300 From: "Mark L. Levinson" Subject: re: Joni's bad poetry? Mags wrote: > It's probably an old > discussion, but I'd like to know how you distinguish poetry from > lyrics and why you consider this one to be bad poetry. On the first question, let me quote Arthur Penn, although he was writing about the movies: you can say one thing and show another. It's also true of songs: the lyrics can say one thing while the music implies another. The music for "Big Yellow Taxi" is merry, though the lyrics aren't that much less bitter than the Shine album's lyrics. There's even a little of the same over-the-top exaggeration. They paved Paradise? Wouldn't it be enough to say that they paved the old playground? But the music tweaks the word "Paradise" with an incorrect stress, and that way the exaggeration sounds like nothing but a bit of calypso humor. So lyrics don't need to be good stand-alone poetry if they can rely on help from the music. On the second point, let me quote William Saroyan: anyone who believes in anything to the exclusion of a certain doubt about all things has got to be a lousy writer, because what can you say if the answer is already in? What we get from Joni's lyric/poem is her opinion that the answer is already in, so no wonder she resorts to overfamiliar phrases. - ------------------------------------------------ Mark L. Levinson - nosnivel@netvision.net.il - ------------------------------------------------ Mark discourses to fellow Israeli techwriters in The Why of Style, at http://www.elephant.org.il/ - ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:36:26 -0400 From: "Rob Argento" Subject: NJC: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Hear! Hear! I will second THAT! After three years in the US Army, 1965-1968, I "retired". That is how I (along with Yossarian) ended up in Sweden. Looking just at our American history of war, there has ALWAYS been a large resistance within the ranks - as well as without. Those of us from the Viet Nam Era experienced that first-hand. But, with time, history gets revised by those who write it. It is seldom written by those who lived - or died - in it. No. Young men do not like wars - at least not after having been involved in one. Wars end when people refuse to fight them. It happened in Viet Nam and it is happening today. Sorry for the Non-Joni interlude - But the issue is near and dear to my heart. At least I marked it NJC- even if I am pretty sure Joni would concur. /Robban - -----Original Message----- From: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Marion Leffler Sent: den 13 september 2007 13:44 To: 'Marion Leffler'; 'Joseph Palis'; 'Joni LIST' Subject: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry On second thought, I can't resist commenting on the Men love war clichi. Which men and who says? Oscar Wilde with his romantic notions of masculinity and noble wars, a typical product of his culture? Generals? Has anybody asked the soldiers in Afghanistan, in Iraqu or elsewhere? My sons, for example, refused their mandatory army education, and they are not the only ones. Lots of young American men refused to go to war in Vietnam and had to flee their own country because of their refusal. There is countless evidence of men who do not love war. (This is not an argument with you, Joseph, just a comment in general). Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: Marion Leffler [mailto:marionleffler@telia.com] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:25 Till: 'Joseph Palis'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Hi Joseph, good points! Let me just add that I think Shadows and Light is by far a better presentation of a popular view of the nature of history than those lines about war as History in Strong and Wrong. At least there is some complexity in Shadows and Light. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Joseph Palis Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:08 Till: 'Joni LIST' Dmne: RE : SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry I agree, Marion. Not an historian here (although I have taken Cultures of History grad classes) but I will also add that historiographies we have come to know and ones that came out in popular history books are usually from a perspective of one historian and should not be taken as the last word on the matter. There are so many neglected narratives/fragments of history that are missing in a significant number of history books simply because some of them are 'unthinkable' (e.g. Haitian revolution in the late 1790s; massacre of Filipinos in the hands of their 'liberators' at the turn of the 1900s). However, I think Joni is making a point when she said about "men love war". After all Oscar Wilde once said that war will always have a fascination for people (although he used the word "men") and it may have propeled much of the global changes that occurred in the last centuries and yes, even millennia. Not that I buy this argument necessarily because it reinforces that there is only one linear type of historical narrative that people should know (like what you said, what about other histories? or Other histories; or even other Other histories; or subjugated knowledges that Foucault mentioned famously in his "Society Must Be Defended" lectures a few years before he died). For me, Joni's lyrics below captured a prevailing notion most of us have about history and histories. I hope she is being sarcastic here because if that is how she sums of the whole universe of histories then I wil be inclined to believe that her perspective of history/ies is a bit outmoded. Not wanting to distract any of your discussion from Joni's lyrics. Joseph in Chapel Hill (who, of late, has been having bad dreams too but will not say that bad dreams can be good) Marion Leffler a icrit : Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history per se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making up our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history of mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention just a few. Marion _____ Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a > professional > historian, the lines > "Strong and wrong you win-- > Only because > That's the way its always been. > Men love war! > That's what history' s for. > History... > A mass--murder mystery... > His story" > bug me. >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to look at the history of the last couple of millennia. - --AJ - --------------------------------- Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:12:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC Also appearing on J-Day - --- Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > And also releasing on J-Day is the DVD set of "My > Name Is Earl", Season 2. > I don't watch TV but I like this show so I'll get it > on DVD. No ads and > you can watch 3 episodes in an hour. And there is > Joni content in this > season, BYT is used in one of the episodes. > Now completely njc that I know of, but that's already in the re: line... I also like "My name is Earl". It kind of grows on you. Also really enjoying (because my kid bought 'em on DVD) "The Office" (this is the American version - there is also a Brit version which I haven't seen) and "Arrested Development." Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:25:27 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: NJC - Also appearing on J-Day ALSO due on September 25th... "Obligatory Villagers" by Nellie McKay and "White Chalk" by PJ Harvey (no, wait--I think this one may have actually been pushed back a week...to October 2nd). Also due soon: "Songs of Mass Destruction" by Annie Lennox (ho-hum on Annie and her "synth" tendencies--but that title is certainly clever!) and "Serious Playground: The Songs of Laura Nyro" by Judy Kuhn (both to be released on October 2nd); "Necessary Evil" by Debbie Harry (her first solo disc since 1993's "Debravation") on October 9th; and "Some Things Just Stick In Your Mind: Singles and Demos 1964-1967" (2 discs, I believe) by Vashti Bunyan (October 16th). XXXOOO, Billy NP: "Versatile Heart" (2007) by Linda Thompson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:08:48 -0700 From: David Marine Subject: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics Hi, Joni list! This whole issue got a lot of play when The Complete Poems and Lyrics came out. For me, it's much ado about nothing, and is bordering on (dare I say it) pedantic effrontery! It's particularly bizarre that this discussion goes round and round after a century of poets who have worked to expand the concept of what "poetry" is. If the poetry editor of the New Yorker wants to publish Joni's lyrics as a poem, more power to her. I suspect that she chose "Strong and Wrong" more for its relevant theme than for its literary virtues (and I agree with Richard and AJ that it does not read very well on the page). I'm not sure that the New Yorker is the country's most "prestigious venue" for poetry. What about the New York Review of Books? At any rate, I don't think anyone should turn to Conde Nast to tell them what is or is not poetry. What's the point of getting too caught up in semantics? So far, the distinctions that I've seen made here between poetry and lyrics (a poem has its own internal music and rhythm, etc.) touch on some of the issues that one deals with when translating poetry. There are those who would argue that poetry cannot or should not be translated into a different language, or re-structured into a song: that too much is lost or perverted. I'm in the camp that likes "Slouching" and "Love". I also like the gorgeous way that she worked with the T.S. Eliot lines in "Moon at the Window". I've always assumed that this was an offshoot of her work on Mingus. Did I miss the discussion of the sanctity of Eliot's lyrics? Serious poetry did well in the 20th century, but it's not flourishing right now. Few read it, and fewer still have the ability to read it with a critical eye (or ear). Outside of academic circles, I'm not sure anyone does. So I understand when those who love poetry fight the good fight. They're attempting to protect what's left of "serious" poetry, and see "lyrics as poetry", rap, poetry "slams" and such as a threat to the delicate, divine, and inspired work of those who are writing within more traditional parameters. I can see both sides (now), but I don't see what's served by drawing up these "borderlines". Looking forward to the continuing discussion... David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:04:30 +1200 From: Subject: Re: NJC Also appearing on J-Day Catherine wrote: > Also really enjoying (because my kid bought 'em on > DVD) "The Office" (this is the American version - > there is also a Brit version which I haven't seen) and > "Arrested Development." Just wanted to correct things a little (because I can)... The British version, originally conceived, written by, and starring Ricky Gervais is absolutely brilliant. The "cringe-factor" when watching this is wonderful, if extreme! If you enjoy the American version, try to find a copy of the British - it's well worth the effort. You can view clips here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/theoffice/clips The American version is very funny as well (from the few episodes I've seen), but very definitely a copy of the original concept - sold to the producers, etc. by Gervais. Sorry for the lack of poetry in this post.... Hell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:43:53 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc It could be that Joni is simply saying something like what I may say, "had this world been under the stewardship of the matriarchs all along, we wouldn't be in this war nor in any other war that has ever been fought since the beginning of mankind's existence, (unless the matriarch would have been some sort of jealous sadist along the lines of Ivan The Impaler). But since it's been a patriarchal society in just about all of history's cultures and civilizations, the hunter/gatherer/warrior masculine side takes over. Resolve for men in power came/comes through war. Tragedy! Since woman brings life to this world, she inherently tends to be more of a sensitive, nurturing, care-giver. Yet to be fair to the men, women's flaws can also be a ball-breaking affair for many men and women, too. Many women love to be controlling and jealous and always want to be the #1 under any situation and that's a ball-breaking situation, but not enough to go and train men to kill, like some vicarious thrill, I don't think. I don't have many women friends because of their controlling, jealous ways. These days, I'm having to deal with two women who are very jealous and destroying any love that could be--my mother and a supposed good friend who turned her back on me so cold and cruel like, just because Fr. Delaney said I was a, "good soul," and spoke nice things about me in front of a group of us who were with him a week before he died at his last supper on a dining table. He didn't tell her nor any of the other people who were around--and just for that, she got all the women to stay away from me as their men didn't, making it worse. Those women all ignored me at the Rosary and Burial and that hurt so much because I wanted to express my sorrow through my writings and discuss all the good he did in his life.. All this anger and for what? And I thought all along they were "Mother Mary gals," who have a strong heart when the men in their lives get weak. Disappointed, Jean PS: And just because Fr. Delaney was a priest did not make him a pedophile. Please don't let that ugly thought get in the way of who Fr. Jim Delaney was--and he is what a call, a real man. Fr. Delaney, a very strong Irishman, born and raised in Belfast, when the Protestants and Catholics were having it out in blood, I imagine his anger and compassion were being tested but he chose to carry a Rosary instead of a gun. The driving force that made him the wonderful, extraordinary healing and wise man he grew up to be and obviously not a man of war in the least and as strong as a redwood tree that no one could bring down and those who tried had/have to end look up towards the sky to get a glimpse of it all to understand why! Marion Leffler wrote: On second thought, I can't resist commenting on the Men love war clichi. Which men and who says? Oscar Wilde with his romantic notions of masculinity and noble wars, a typical product of his culture? Generals? Has anybody asked the soldiers in Afghanistan, in Iraqu or elsewhere? My sons, for example, refused their mandatory army education, and they are not the only ones. Lots of young American men refused to go to war in Vietnam and had to flee their own country because of their refusal. There is countless evidence of men who do not love war. (This is not an argument with you, Joseph, just a comment in general). Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: Marion Leffler [mailto:marionleffler@telia.com] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:25 Till: 'Joseph Palis'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Hi Joseph, good points! Let me just add that I think Shadows and Light is by far a better presentation of a popular view of the nature of history than those lines about war as History in Strong and Wrong. At least there is some complexity in Shadows and Light. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Joseph Palis Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:08 Till: 'Joni LIST' Dmne: RE : SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry I agree, Marion. Not an historian here (although I have taken Cultures of History grad classes) but I will also add that historiographies we have come to know and ones that came out in popular history books are usually from a perspective of one historian and should not be taken as the last word on the matter. There are so many neglected narratives/fragments of history that are missing in a significant number of history books simply because some of them are 'unthinkable' (e.g. Haitian revolution in the late 1790s; massacre of Filipinos in the hands of their 'liberators' at the turn of the 1900s). However, I think Joni is making a point when she said about "men love war". After all Oscar Wilde once said that war will always have a fascination for people (although he used the word "men") and it may have propeled much of the global changes that occurred in the last centuries and yes, even millennia. Not that I buy this argument necessarily because it reinforces that there is only one linear type of historical narrative that people should know (like what you said, what about other histories? or Other histories; or even other Other histories; or subjugated knowledges that Foucault mentioned famously in his "Society Must Be Defended" lectures a few years before he died). For me, Joni's lyrics below captured a prevailing notion most of us have about history and histories. I hope she is being sarcastic here because if that is how she sums of the whole universe of histories then I wil be inclined to believe that her perspective of history/ies is a bit outmoded. Not wanting to distract any of your discussion from Joni's lyrics. Joseph in Chapel Hill (who, of late, has been having bad dreams too but will not say that bad dreams can be good) Marion Leffler a icrit : Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history per se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making up our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history of mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention just a few. Marion _____ Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a professional > historian, the lines > "Strong and wrong you win-- > Only because > That's the way its always been. > Men love war! > That's what history' s for. > History... > A mass--murder mystery... > His story" > bug me. >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to look at the history of the last couple of millennia. - --AJ - --------------------------------- Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail - --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:45:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: Also appearing on J-Day, Now other musings on singers NJC Thanks for these updates, Billy. The line-up looks really interesting. One of the DJs in the station recommended that I listen to Linda Thompson's latest album. I thought "Beauty" from that album is just like that -- a beauty. Like Mama Cass, I only discovered Linda Thompson's oeuvre this year. I love Annie Lennox's voice. In the late 90s, along with Paula Cole (where is she now?) and k.d. lang, I thought Annie Lennox's voix is perfection. The pitch security, superb control, painterly phrasing, intelligence and an upper range that goes up to the high heavens in celebration of a song (rather than to show one's a range) are all present in these singers. So I am happy that she is back doing albums because precious few singers can delight me the way Annie does (even "Medusa"'s flaws are easy to dismiss). I also like Judy Kuhn. Maybe not like I used to but she has a soaring voice that enchants me. I bought her first album that pays tribute to Jule Styne and her vocals are up to the challenge. From Pocahontas to Betty Schaefer, the purity of Kuhn's vocals is apparent. And her disc that is a tribute to Laura Nyro promises to be good. Maybe she can tackle an all-RLJ disc in the future too? I am not sure I know a Debbie Harry song that she sang as a solo. She appears in indie movies occasionally. I like Nellie McKay alright, but I think this is partly due to her explicit deconstruction of bubblegum pop and the voice that is pleasant to listen to -- in a Doris Day kinda way. I own her two albums, so maybe I will get her third just tobe a completist. By the way, while she did not really make her mark in "Chelsea Morning" that she sang in a Joni Tribute in Carnegie Hall last year, I thought her version is not bad at all. But she seems in a hurry, yes? If I remembered it right, she brought her sheet music of CM. Sat and played piano. Sang the song -- no embellishments. Finish. Gather her sheet music and left. Like someone auditioning. As though she happens to be backstage and the producers asked her if she can sing a Joni song. Vashti Bunyan. I heard about this recluse's life and extremely sparse discography late last year when she paid a visit to the Triangle. Her album was on rotation in the station and I remembered being struck by the stark beauty of her voice and songs. I read about her online and was more awed by her life that I made a mental note to see her in concert at the Art's Venue. But I got deflected to another concert (Yo La Tengo) that same night in nearby Cat's Cradle. I enjoyed YLT but part of me was wishing I was in a more subdued and quieter venue with just Vashti and her music. Hope she heads this part of the town before I leave this town. Performing tonight in campus is Al Green with Lizz Wright. I am more intrigued to see Lizz Wright because on the strength of her two solo albums, she knocked me silly with her vocals. Like this up and coming jazz/soul singer Somi, Lizz Wright's voice is a seamless instrument of joy. I am glad I am alive to hear these artists! Joseph in Chapel Hill np: New York Voices - Me and Julio Down by the Schoolyard Wtking59@cs.com a icrit : ALSO due on September 25th... "Obligatory Villagers" by Nellie McKay and "White Chalk" by PJ Harvey (no, wait--I think this one may have actually been pushed back a week...to October 2nd). Also due soon: "Songs of Mass Destruction" by Annie Lennox (ho-hum on Annie and her "synth" tendencies--but that title is certainly clever!) and "Serious Playground: The Songs of Laura Nyro" by Judy Kuhn (both to be released on October 2nd); "Necessary Evil" by Debbie Harry (her first solo disc since 1993's "Debravation") on October 9th; and "Some Things Just Stick In Your Mind: Singles and Demos 1964-1967" (2 discs, I believe) by Vashti Bunyan (October 16th). XXXOOO, Billy NP: "Versatile Heart" (2007) by Linda Thompson - --------------------------------- Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:46:54 -0700 From: David Marine Subject: New Yorker / Poetry Hello again, list! I guess I should double check my homework before turning it it. In my last post I talked about Strong and Wrong, when of course it's Bad Dreams are Good. Sorry for the error. I'll stand by whatever else I said in the post until forced to recant. Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:44:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: NJC Also appearing on J-Day I'll echo Hell's comments - The US version is excellent, and the Ricky Gervais series is better still. Hard to believe, but true. And how cool is it that we had a flame war over POETRY? Awesome. Bob NP: The Shins, "Australia" - --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:41:16 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC Mercy, Mercy, Mercy Sherelle, do you have "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy: Live At The Club" by Cannonball Adderley at home? You can hear part of it on Amazon but you need to buy the CD or LP for the full effect. It's one part Baptist sermon and one part old-school R&B. The first time I heard it, I sat in the driveway, listening until it was over. Jim L. Chuck said, >Around this house we are saddened at the passing of Joe Zawinul. With the Adderly's, (Mercy, Mercy Mercy) Miles' fusion bands (Silent Way, Bitches' Brew) and then in leading Weather Report, (Shorter, Jaco) Joe made a huge amount of the significant music of our time. Austrian soul! (who knew?) Bye, Joe> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:51:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc NJC I hate generalizations; they're ALWAYS wrong. Especially here on the JMDL. Look no further than this link to see that women are just as cruel and monstrous as men. But be forewarned - it ain't pretty. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0911071logansix1.html Bob NP: They Might Be Giants, "Greasy Kid Stuff" - --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:56:22 -0400 From: Chuck Eisenhardt Subject: 'Bad Dreams' in the New Yorker The lyrics to 'Bad Dreams Are Good' were published in the current New Yorker magazine (9/17) as poetry. (Sorry if we already knew that) ChuckE ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:56:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Heads Up NYC Joni fans http://down2night.com/new-york/dizzys-club-coca-cola/events Dizzy's in NYC has a couple of shows next week that have promising Joni (covers) content: Rachel Z on 17SEP, Ian Shaw AND Claire Martin the 18th & 19th. Bob NP: Jason Isbell, "Chicago Promenade" - --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:25:39 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc NJC On Sep 13, 2007, at 8:51 PM, Bob Muller wrote: > more of a sensitive, nurturing, care-giver.> > > I hate generalizations; they're ALWAYS wrong. Especially here on > the JMDL. > > Look no further than this link to see that women are just as > cruel and monstrous as men. But be forewarned - it ain't pretty. > > http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/ > 2007/0911071logansix1.html > > Bob Speaking of women with questionable character, my friend Amy (who Muller and Paz met at PHJB) just told me about something that happened last week at the Whole Foods were I work sometimes(it appeared in The Blotter in Creative Loafing, a compilation of actual stories from the local police logs.) She started shopping, got some shrimp, some lobster tails, then went over to the meat counter and picked up some t-bone steaks, New York Strip, you name it she was putting it in her cart. She even grabbed a couple of the green knit bags they sell now for $1.99 to avoid the use of disposable bags...Anyway, so she had this cart full of groceries. So she actually thought she could just wheel it out the door without paying, as if no one would notice. Which is what she tried to do and was of course caught. I worked there full time for two years so this totally cracks me up. You couldn't make this stuff up. Nothing is funnier than reality. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:22:12 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc NJC Bob, I precisely know where you're coming from, yet I have to say that women in power or any normal woman for that matter would never grant these types of horrific women who torture, maim or kill any authority or position of leadership. If you tuned in and listened to what some human behaviorist experts on CNN and other media outlets were commenting concerning these sociopathological women, you would have heard that this type of behavior in women is rare--that women who commit these offensive crimes are doing it for a man or most usually being influenced by a man. And that's the way it happens to go, Bob. Honestly! Women are suckers for pretty lies and the men that say them, even if they're as tough as men. They get weak because they have no identity or self-esteem. Let's not have a flame war because Joni sings a line that has nothing to do with generalizations, preferences or judgements. She hates war--bottom line, and it is always the men who decide when and where to go to war. Women would not choose to have their children, partners and friends suffer and/or die in some useless bloody war--just as most men wouldn't--but wars are started by men, like the fact or not! Jeannie Bob Muller wrote: I hate generalizations; they're ALWAYS wrong. Especially here on the JMDL. Look no further than this link to see that women are just as cruel and monstrous as men. But be forewarned - it ain't pretty. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0911071logansix1.html Bob NP: They Might Be Giants, "Greasy Kid Stuff" - --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! - --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:33:55 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > But it wasn't Joni who published it there! So your quarrel is actually not > with Joni but with the person who defined her lyrics as poetry but the > postings have not made this clear. > Marion Mitchell published it there. Alice Quinn may have solicited her work or, less likely, Mitchell might have submitted her work, but Mitchell's lyrics did not appear in The New Yorker simply because Alice Quinn wanted them too. I mean, this argument is as absurb as saying Mitchell didn't put out Album X, because David Geffen or who ever contracted for it, put it in the record stores, and that if the album is bad, or not up to Mitchell's standards that it's Geffen's or whoever's fault. - --AJ - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:36:33 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics On Sep 13, 2007, at 6:08 PM, David Marine wrote: > Hi, Joni list! > > This whole issue got a lot of play when The Complete Poems and Lyrics > came out. For me, it's much ado about nothing, I actually hadn't read any of the lyrics from "Shine" yet so tonight, I googled "Bad Dreams are Good" and you know, I actually don't think its half bad. I kind of like it. I especially like how she brings in Mighty Mouse and Superman. I wonder if anyone has ever mentioned Mighty Mouse in a rocknroll song before. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:42:02 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > I still don't get all the fuss. If you do not want to regard these song > lyrics as poems, it's up to you. You're missing the point here. Poems are not something one randomly defines by one's own opinion or point of view, or some parlour game where people amuse themselves by having critical-aesthetic discussions for one's own pleasure. (I've never had one of those by the way, and have no idea what it is.) A poem is a recognizable thing, just as is a beautiful piece of pottery by a skilled potter, a painting by a skilled painter, an etude by a skilled composer. What happens, though, in our culture, is that, because everyone uses language, many people think what they joy down in their notebooks is poetry. It's not. I'm happy if it gives them and their loved ones pleasure; I'm all for personal expression; but no one writes a good poem without a long apprenticeship and an unfathomable committment to pursue something that offers few worldly rewards. A friend of my parents wrote "poems," sent them to me. They were terrible. He happened to be a neurosurgeon who, as he said, "wrote poems in his spare time." I suggested he keep his day job, but that I was considering doing some brain surgery in my spare time. Quite frankly, I'm bewildered by the vehemence of this discussion. She's a world-class songwriter and a world-class lyricist. No poet could do what she does. So why is it so outrageous that a couple of folks on this list object to her lyrics being called poetry in the most high-profile venue for poetry in the US? - --AJ Your critical-aesthetic discussions are > intellectual excercises for your pleasure, and anybody else*s who cares to > take part of them. I just thought you were coming on a little too strong at > times when other people on this list didn't learn quick enough. > I, too, do not love everything Joni has written but I don't feel I have to > convince everybody else to join me in my critical stance and I don't think > that Joni's lyrics should stand up to my professional criteria of in my case > history. > Marion > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr > rflynn@frontiernet.net > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 20:07 > Till: Marion Leffler > Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' > Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > I never said I had a quarrel with Joni. I don't know even know her. I > just said I agreed with AJ that if we are to consider it a poem, it is > a very bad one. In the same way that you know a lot about history, I > know a lot about poetry. This was never about Joni in an _ad feminam_ > way (to borrow Adrienne Rich's phrase from "Snapshots of a > Daughter-in-Law"). > > I must add what another poet friend of mine here (this guy really > likes Joni, too) said when I sent him the link: to the New Yorker. He > said "Ouch! They aren't even all that good as song lyrics." > > None of those judgments are quarrelsome or anti-Joni, they're critical > and aesthetic judgments. > > I've loved Joni's songs since I was eleven years old (1966). It > doesn't mean she doesn't sometimes turn out some stuff that isn't up > to par. Even Homer nods. > > > Quoting Marion Leffler : > > > But it wasn't Joni who published it there! So your quarrel is actually not > > with Joni but with the person who defined her lyrics as poetry but the > > postings have not made this clear. > > Marion > > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > > Fren: rflynn@frontiernet.net [mailto:rflynn@frontiernet.net] > > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:20 > > Till: Marion Leffler > > Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' > > Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > > > But Joni's view of history wasn't published in leading history > > journal. Her "poem" was published in the most prestigious venue for > > poetry in the US. That's the point and there is a difference. > > > > Quoting Marion Leffler : > > > >> My original point was that there is no point in criticising Jonis lyrics > >> for being bad poetry or bad history. Of course she expresses her opinions > > in > >> her song lyrics. > >> > >> Marion > >> > >> > >> > >> _____ > >> > >> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] > >> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 18:54 > >> Till: Marion Leffler; 'Marion Leffler'; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard > >> Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' > >> Dmne: Re: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > >> > >> > >> > >> [Top-posting intentionally.] > >> > >> > >> > >> Well, I get all that. (I'm not a historian, but I read a lot of > >> > >> history.) I guess I think she's expressing her opinion, a lot > >> > >> of which I think has validity, and no songwriter can > >> > >> possibly encompass all the complexities of the history of > >> > >> war in a song. > >> > >> > >> > >> And--and nothing against guys here, I heart guys--if you > >> > >> look at history, it is men who have lead the armies, colonized > >> > >> and exploited entire continents, and done virtually all of > >> > >> the raping and the pillaging. Women have never had, and > >> > >> still don't have, the _power_ to do this. > >> > >> > >> > >> I agree it's a simplification, but almost every wide-sweeping > >> > >> statement in a song about culture is bound to be somewhat > >> > >> simplified, which is why most songs tend to be more lyrical > >> > >> in tone, rather than epic. > >> > >> > >> > >> I need to quit talking about this song until I hear it! > >> > >> > >> > >> --AJ > >> > >> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" > >> : -------------- > >> > >> > >>> I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an > >>> over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied > >> through > >>> history. Secondly, explaining and understanding war by referring to > (all) > >>> men's inherent traits of violence and will to kill each other (and women > >> and > >>> children, too) doesn't really make sense. There is a lot more to wars > > than > >> > >>> that. An important factor is the social structures of opposing > societies, > >>> another is cultural differences. A third is the struggle over power in > >>> various areas. These have all varied over time. > >>> Marion > >>> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > >>> Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr > Marion > >>> Leffler > >> & gt; Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:59 > >>> Till: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni > >>> LIST' > >>> Dmne: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > >>> > >>> Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, > and > >>> she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history > > per > >> > >>> se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a > >>> complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories > making > >> up > >>> our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history > >> of > >>> mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention > >> just > >>> a few. > >>> > >>> Marion > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _____ > >>> > >>> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] > >>> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 > >>> Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni > >> LIST' > >>> Dmne: Re: S V: Jonis' bad poetry > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" > >>> : -------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a > >> professional > >>> > >>> > historian, the lines > >>> > "Strong and wrong you win-- > >>> > Only because > >>> > That's the way its always been. > >>> > Men love war! > >>> > That's what history' s for. > >>> > History... > >>> > A mass--murder mystery... > >>> > His story" > >>> > bug me. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated > >>> > >>> perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, > >>> > >>> but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to l ook at the history > >>> > >>> of the last couple of millennia. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:42:52 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc NJC So this red-meat-eating female Whole Foods shoplifter knows how to steal. This will not qualify her for the position of a male war-monger in power. Maybe if she stops eating flesh, she may not have to steal to make another expensive ritzy meal with meat or mercury-ladened seafood. Do you think she was going to cook for herself or for a man? ;) Jean Victor Johnson wrote: On Sep 13, 2007, at 8:51 PM, Bob Muller wrote: > > more of a sensitive, nurturing, care-giver.> > > I hate generalizations; they're ALWAYS wrong. Especially here on > the JMDL. > > Look no further than this link to see that women are just as > cruel and monstrous as men. But be forewarned - it ain't pretty. > > http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/ > 2007/0911071logansix1.html > > Bob Speaking of women with questionable character, my friend Amy (who Muller and Paz met at PHJB) just told me about something that happened last week at the Whole Foods were I work sometimes(it appeared in The Blotter in Creative Loafing, a compilation of actual stories from the local police logs.) She started shopping, got some shrimp, some lobster tails, then went over to the meat counter and picked up some t-bone steaks, New York Strip, you name it she was putting it in her cart. She even grabbed a couple of the green knit bags they sell now for $1.99 to avoid the use of disposable bags...Anyway, so she had this cart full of groceries. So she actually thought she could just wheel it out the door without paying, as if no one would notice. Which is what she tried to do and was of course caught. I worked there full time for two years so this totally cracks me up. You couldn't make this stuff up. Nothing is funnier than reality. Victor - --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #359 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------