From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #326 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, August 17 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 326 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Shine Lyrics..My take ["Ross, Les" ] SV: Shine lyrics ["Marion Leffler" ] Shine's lyrics, and the Church [Andeemac2006 ] njc Imogen Heap at last a new good Artist [Andeemac2006 ] Re: Shine lyrics, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Shine Lyrics..My take NJC [Bob Muller ] Re: Shine Lyrics..My take NJC [Smurf ] Re: Shine lyrics, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Slouching Towards Bethlehem's First Origination [Michael Flaherty ] LONG Both sides, please ! ["Oddmund Kaarevik" ] Re: Shine lyrics, njc [Motitan@aol.com] Re: Shine lyrics, njc [Bob Muller ] Re: It's Bo on a sunny Saturday...46 days to wait! [Peep Richman ] Re: Shine lyrics, my take [David Sapp ] Re: dave matthews and tim reynolds NJC [waytoblue@comcast.net] Re: Slouching Towards Bethlehem's First Origination ["Gerald A. Notaro" <] Re: dave matthews and tim reynolds NJC [Michael Paz Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take well, these are a long way from the density of imagery we've poured over in songs like shades of scarlett, don't interrupt the sorrow, drjd et al. and it seems to me it's been heading this way in joni's music for a while now. should this be seen as some form of decline or simply a desire for succinctness? i mean, she's promoted herself as a poet in interviews she's given. perhaps it's just me but when i read things like that i kinda expect 'more' though i'm unable to defend or quantify that feeling when i accept that definitions applying thereto usually carry an unwarranted constraint. who decides what constitutes poety? write whatever you like and let it take the form it takes depending on what you feel you want to communicate. i try to write words to tunes i make and physically baulk at the first sign of the florid or contrived. and no, i'm not comparing anything i do with joni's work so much as trying to point out that a desire for plain speaking can be demanding and in my case defeating. (says he, wandering all over the point of this mail......) i think too that the subject matter in these lyrics and position from which she embarked on this latest work perhaps preclude for her the possibly-perceived 'indulgence' of the image-dense lyrics of joni's past work. she means to speak directly and without allusion. well, it's a thought. i don't agree with some of the things being said in opposition to the use of the poem If. I think, in a recent poll here in the UK, that If was voted the most popular poem (among those who chose to vote on the topic). I have never liked the work associating it, probably through some teacher influence at school, with the age of the british empire. It's an association i can't shake and feel uncomfortable getting behind. i'm happy for anyone to take material such as this and re-work it in a new form. to assume otherwise is to imply a sanctity to the source material i doubt it merits. but that's just my point of view. i love what she did with the verses from Corinthians in the song Love and also in STB. I adore both those songs and feel that they do nothing to detract from the original material at all. in fact, i am not disposed even to make comparisons, rather accept them (the songs) for what they are and whether, for me, they work or not. i think they do. and it's not like she's assuming credit for the verse though she does say she improves upon the original. that's a matter of opinion and her opinion matters to her alone. others can make up their own mind. but i feel the properly credited adoption of other source material is fair game. hmmm, i wonder why i have the feeling that Hana is about joni's mother. though the timescale may not have worked, i had an idea there might have been a song about her in this collection. anyhoo, back to work les (london....where passingontheright aint assholery....) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:13:21 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: Shine lyrics Hi Laura, having brought up in the Catholic faith  I left the church at 19  I have to respectfully disagree with some of your points. But let med start with abortion and Joni  she said that abortion was unheard of at the time she got pregnant so that was no option for her. Nobody knows what she would have chosen otherwise. Its a tough choice to make but I still would like to maintain that it gives women freedom  the freedom to decide not to have an unwanted child. I am not looking for a debate over abortion as such. Birth control  without it hundreds and thousands of young women would either get pregnant and have to face the choice of abortion, marriage they dont really want or being a single parent. Sure, you are right, it has huge advantages for irresponsible men, too but you somehow seem to imply  forgive me if Im wrong  that women are not as interested in sex as men, which is precisely the argument that womens sexuality has been repressed by since the 17th century. Before that, it was supposed that women had a greater interest in sexuality than men did and that they therefore had to be restrained. Anyway you look at it you loseThe catholic church does not permit any sexual activity outside marriage, and even then only for the purpose of reproduction and only in a certain way. If that is not repressing sexuality I dont know what is. The ban on parts of the Bible  interesting how you turn this around into something positive. Sorry, I cannot see this as anything other than subordination to the interpretations of the Church. You are not allowed to make up your own mind. And its not only parts of the Bible that are considered unsuitable but lots of other books  Darwin for one  and uncountable numbers of fictional books and novels. Being a good Catholic, in my opinion, involves more than loving Jesus and abiding by the Ten Commandments and the gospel of love. It also involves abiding to the rules the Church has laid down. I might still be a Catholic at heart but I am no longer a Catholic in the eyes of the church. Marion _____ Fren: LCStanley7@aol.com [mailto:LCStanley7@aol.com] Skickat: den 17 augusti 2007 05:54 Till: joni@smoe.org; marionleffler@telia.com Dmne: Re: Shine lyrics Marion wrote: (no birth control, no abortions, sexual inhibition generally, no divorces, bans on certain books etc). To be a good Catholic you have to create a personal prison for yourself. Hi Marion, If abortion would have meant freedom for Joni, she wouldn't have Kelly Green today. As for birth control, historically one could say it was a source of prison rather than a freedom considering how many women using chemical birth control died from breast cancer before the right amount of progesterone was added to the pill. Birth control was invented by men so men could have sex with women whenever men wanted without the consequences. If it wasn't so and men wanted sexual freedom through birth control, they would have looked at tampering with their own physiology rather than the woman's. Sexual inhibition... I would say instead the Catholic church is totally sexual. The whole thing is set up around eternal consummation between God and the Church. For example read St. John of the Cross' Spiritual Canticle or The Living Flame of Love. Both are very sexual like the Song of Songs. Concerning the banning of books, the Catholic church is the only Christian church I know of that has had the balls to ban members from reading the Bible to prevent fundamentalist interpretations leading to the harm of people. In my experience with Catholicism, to be a good Catholic means to love as Jesus exemplified not to be legalistic like the Pharisees. My guess is that Joni is pointing to corruption in the Catholic church rather than the Catholic church at heart. I could be wrong of course. Love, Laura ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 02:36:58 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Andeemac2006 Subject: Shine's lyrics, and the Church Bob Muller said :- She's saying that the crimes of the church should be illuminated, and by the same token the same light should illuminate the doctrines and philosophies that the church has all but forgotten. "Turn the other cheek", "love your enemies & pray for your persecutors", these concepts have been totally abandoned by the American Christian church. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with your thoughts, how Christains can Ignore the Sermon on the Mount Baffels me, Its like they rip this section out of there Bibles ???? Really every doctrine that Republicans spout is TOTTALY opposite to Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount The one I feel bitter about these days is This " I think that it would be a very Christian thing to vote for a National Health service so that every child Born in the USA is covered by Health Care, dont you think, this is some thing Jesus Christ would approve of IE the Good Samaritan. In fact i think it would be a terrific way to announce a new Democratic Policy ie the CHRISTIAN HEALTH CARE COVERAGE POLICY FOR EVERYONE " now how would Republicans knock this stratergy Dont you think ?????? But no I meet a lot of people that say " I am not paying for someone else's Health care, they should get a job to pay for there own health care " and these same people go to church every sunday and worship a Bible that has the Sermon on the Mount within, I suspect that the Sermon on the Mount is hardly ever read in American Churches using your words " these concepts have been totally abandoned by the American Christian church." I hear some people call them the Parrables!!!! No there not !!! there Jesus Christs direct teachings to us all including G W Bush As far as the Catholic Church goes in Shine, I think she is referring to how some People feel trapped in Marrige, for Divorce is a sin, Its for life a Prison if you like // my thoughts ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 03:11:18 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Andeemac2006 Subject: njc Imogen Heap at last a new good Artist Have just been indoctrinated by an Artist " Imogen Heap" she is fantastic !!!! what a talent he last album its been out for two years and i have never heard of her , Tragic really, / anyway she Plays Piano and is Classically trained , her sound is very Electronic Wonderfully produced bit like Tevor Horn or Steve LIpson of Propaganda and Annie Lennox fame wonderfull songs one after another with truly state of the art Production, she has a great voice I have just Bought her last Album " Speak for Yourself" Go to Rapsody and get free listens to it !!!! every song is good, thats 12 tracks Some of you might say " where have you been the past 2 years" Im sorry !!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 07:40:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take - --- "Ross, Les" wrote: > should this be seen as some form of decline or > simply a desire for > succinctness? Yes. ;-) > i don't agree with some of the things being said in > opposition to the use of > the poem If. I think, in a recent poll here in the > UK, that If was voted the > most popular poem (among those who chose to vote on > the topic). I have never > liked the work associating it, probably through some > teacher influence at > school, with the age of the british empire. If... the poem "If" was one that was taught to every schoolchild in the UK, particularly 20 or more years ago, and I suspect that it was, because it was also popular here (not sure about these days), then I'd not be surprised it was chosen as the most popular poem, and oh, what a long and rambling sentence that was and continues to be. But then, think about the songs that are routinely chosen as "best" in opinion polls and most of the stuff that stays in Top 40 charts well beyond its best-before date. I don't even remember *if* we read "If" in school, but I have certainly been familiar with it for quite a while and I have a similar distaste or revulsion for it. It may be the association with "Empire" and all the icky things for which that stands, or it may have something to do with the fact that my ex rather liked it (insert gagging sound here.) I always here it being spoken in a religiously fervoured sort of tone with smarmy, inspirational/martial music played behind it (perhaps something like "Land of hope and glory" played by a high school or military band.) > it's not like she's assuming credit for the verse > though she does say she > improves upon the original. that's a matter of > opinion and her opinion > matters to her alone. others can make up their own > mind. but i feel the > properly credited adoption of other source material > is fair game. I'm not as offended by her changing words as some are, although for some reason, her changing the Yeats bothers me more than the others - but not enough for me to dislike the song. In fact, I like it, but she could have left out some of the "head of a lions" in the background. Of course, Yeats and Kipling are in a completely different league, so maybe that's it. Corinthians or anything from the Bible is very fair game, since there are so many translations and interpretations of those in any case. But she does come across as very arrogant when she says she improved on them. I hope it's a Joni joke, but it's hard to say. Changing lyrics to fit into song form is probably something you'd have to do in any case. Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:14:13 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Shine lyrics, njc In a message dated 8/17/07 3:55:30 AM, nosnivel@netvision.net.il writes: > Why wouldn't > a man feel as free sexually (if not freer) if > the birth control was on his side? > I was speaking about the history of chemical alteration of the women's physiology. Men chose to alter women's rather than their own. Cutting the vas deferens gives men the freedom you question. There are chemicals men could take to decrease their sperm production. I am of the opinion that men were thinking more about themselves than about women when they developed chemical birth control. They didn't mean to give women breast cancer, but they knew giving women hormones was risky. It would be risky for men to take sperm decreasing hormones also. Love, Laura ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 05:20:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take NJC Hey, let's count our blessings here...instead of covering Kipling's poem "If", she could have covered Bread's song "If", and it might be something like this....worst.video.ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J94-_w9ARX0 Bob NP: Sonic Youth, "Washing Machine" - --------------------------------- Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 05:52:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take NJC Woo-hoo! Telly Savalas and a younger Sue Cameron! Who knew? Gee, drugs sure were popular back then . . . - --SoB, going to shave his head - --- Bob Muller wrote: > Hey, let's count our blessings here...instead of > covering Kipling's poem "If", she could have covered > Bread's song "If", and it might be something like > this....worst.video.ever: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J94-_w9ARX0 > > Bob > > NP: Sonic Youth, "Washing Machine" > > > > > --------------------------------- > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out > Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:59:37 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Shine lyrics, njc Marion wrote: > But let med start with abortion and Joni b she said that abortion was > unheard of at the time she got pregnant so that was no option for her. Nobody > knows what she would have chosen otherwise. > > B B B B Yes, nobody knows.B Abortion was unheard of yet it was still a practice among women (my grandmother being one) even though it wasn't an option for Joni. > Itbs a tough choice to make but I still would like to maintain that it > gives women freedom b the freedom to decide not to have an unwanted child. I am > not looking for a debate over abortion as such. > > B B B B I agree with you that it frees women of multiple things that come with child bearing and raising children. > Birth control b without it hundreds and thousands of young women would > either get pregnant and have to face the choice of abortion, marriage they donbt > really want or being a single parent. > > B B B B Don't get me wrong, I'm not against birth control.B What I don't like is that historically women's health has suffered because of the side effects of chemical used as a means of birth control and sometimes because of trauma from IUD's. > Sure, you are right, it has huge advantages for irresponsible men, too but > you somehow seem to imply b forgive me if Ibm wrong b that women are not as > interested in sex as men, which is precisely the argument that womenbs > sexuality has been repressed by since the 17th century. > > B B B B This was not my implication at all. > Before that, it was supposed that women had a greater interest in sexuality > than men did and that they therefore had to be restrained. > > B B B B I agree that women have a greater interest in sex around the time of ovulation and have a hard time restraining themself.B As for having to be restrained, that sounds as prejudice as men giving women chemicals rather than men taking them. > Anyway you look at it you loseb&The catholic church does not permit any > sexual activity outside marriage, and even then only for the purpose of > reproduction and only in a certain way. If that is not repressing sexuality I donbt > know what is. > > B B B B The Catholic church sets ideals, just like the government sets the speed limit knowing it is virtually impossible to exactly keep it all the time.B People don't go immediately to jail for speeding or we'd probably all be there.B Similarly, the church doesn't say people are for sure going to hell for doing this or that sexual practice.B Some wish the church was harder on people who do sexual things that harm others, especially when clergy do these things to children.B As for sex being for more than just reproduction, it is also to consummate mariages according to the church.B If it was solely for reproduction, the church wouldn't marry people if the women was postmenopausal. > The ban on parts of the B Bible b interesting how you turn this around into > something positive. Sorry, I cannot see this as anything other than > subordination to the interpretations of the Church. You are not allowed to make up > your own mind. And itbs not only parts of the Bible that are considered > unsuitable but lots of other books b Darwin for one b and uncountable numbers of > fictional books and novels. > > B B B B I understand your view point, though I don't share it as you don't share mine.B Cool.B The church ebbs and flows.B You might find it interesting that Harry Potter books are banned by some Christian groups, but not by the Catholic church.B You'll find these as well as Darwin's books in Catholic schools today. > Being a good Catholic, in my opinion, involves more than loving Jesus and > abiding by the Ten Commandments and the gospel of love. It also involves > abiding to the rules the Church has laid down. I might still be a Catholic at > heart but I am no longer a Catholic in the eyes of the church. > > B B B B I think most bishops would tell you if a person follows everything else the Church teaches but doesn't have love, they are nothing in the eyes of the Catholic church.B If one goes to Mass each Sunday and feeds the poor but doesn't have love, in the eyes of the church, they gain nothing.B You might not be in full communion with the church, but no bishop could call you not Catholic if it is in your heart.B They all know God sees the heart. Love, Laura ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 07:00:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: Slouching Towards Bethlehem's First Origination AJ wrote: >>>Lyrics are not poetry and poems are not lyrics. They have many things in common, but they are not the same. That's why I haven't read Shine's lyrics or any of the posts about them. I want to "hear" them performed by Joni, not read them. That's just me, though. Michael Flaherty - --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:45:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: Shine lyrics, njc LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: > B B B B The Catholic church sets ideals, just like the government sets > the > speed > limit knowing it is virtually impossible to exactly keep it all the time.B > People don't go immediately to jail for speeding or we'd probably all be > there.B > Similarly, the church doesn't say people are for sure going to hell for > doing > this or that sexual practice. Sorry, Laura. I have to call you on the tolerance of the Catholic Church, as I have before. You like to portray the Catholic Church as touchy feel-y in these matters, but there condemnation is direct and clear. This is direct from Catholic.net with citations: Contraception Contraception is actively aimed at preventing conception. The Church teaches that “every action that intends to impede procreation must be repudiated . . . whether it is done in anticipation of marital intercourse, or during it, or while it is having its natural consequences.”16 The Catechism of the Catholic Church declares all forms of contraception to be “intrinsically evil.”17 There are several ways in which intercourse can be contraceptive: through the use of contraceptive devices (such as condoms or diaphragms); by the activity of withdrawal (coitus interruptus); by use of spermicides; by surgical sterilization; and by use of IUD’s (intrauterine devices) and anovulant pills, which include “The Pill,” long acting injectibles like Depo-Provera and Norplant, and emergency “morning after” contraceptive pills like RU486 and Preven. In the case of the use of IUD’s and contraceptive pills, they are designed with a two-fold purpose, as both contraceptives and abortifacients. When they fail to prevent conception, which at times they do, then they are also designed to prevent the fertilized egg (a completely human person with a soul) from being able to attach to the placenta. Instead, the new life is washed out in the next menstrual cycle, without even the notice of the parents as to his existence. The result is an abortion. Engaging in contracepted intercourse is regarded as seriously wrong—as constituting objectively grave matter, and thus is grounds for mortal sin. In other words, the following of the Church’s teaching has always been taught to be necessary for salvation. The Church states that the contraception is murder, even when practiced within marriage: “Whoever, therefore, in marriage artificially prevents conception, or procures an abortion, commits a most serious sin: the sin of pre-meditated murder,”18 and elsewhere states, “to prevent birth is anticipated murder.”19 The procreative good of intercourse, as God intends it, demands that every act of intercourse be open to life. Even between husband and wife, every completed sexual act must take place exclusively within natural, unobstructed intercourse. Church teaching honors the procreative good20 of every act of intercourse, together with the unitive good. For most of Christian history, abortion and contraception have been understood to be gravely immoral. In fact, contraception was unanimously condemned by all Christian denominations until 1930, when the Anglican (Episcopalian) church broke with its previous teaching and began instead to allow unnatural birth control devices and practices. Within a year, most of the American Protestant denominations followed as well. Soon acceptance led to advocacy, and eventually the anti-life mentality of contraception lead to the acceptance of abortion. With contraception, the uniting and life-giving dimension of marital intercourse was replaced by the pursuit of pleasure as the ultimate end of intercourse, which led to the objectification of the partner/spouse and the devaluing of human life in general. At times, when the contraception failed, the chosen remedy for the resulting unwanted child became abortion. By 1961, though 12 years before the Supreme Court’s decision to legalize abortion, the National Council of Churches (Protestant) had already decided to accept abortion as morally permissible for health reasons or if the life of the mother was at stake. Today, the acceptance of abortion has lead some to campaign for the tolerance of partial-birth abortion and euthanasia (both of which are already legal in some areas of the United States), which are quickly becoming real threats. Despite subjective cultural opinion and pressure, the Catholic Church has almost singularly remained faithful to the teaching and the truth concerning the dignity of all life from conception to natural death. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:26:07 +0200 From: "Oddmund Kaarevik" Subject: LONG Both sides, please ! Dera Joni listers, Jonphiles, Jonilovers, Joni all over ! (and our dear Joni in cover) I've been following the latest threads with a growing interest - there are so many things I want to comment on, I'll have to give it a go... Remeber last october. It was a rainy night...I twas autumn. I was going to a psycho-drama class I attended to, and on the bus I was thrilled to read that Joni was relasing a new album. A new album! I just couldn't believe it. Since I discovered Joni in late 1999, I'd never before experienced Joni relesaing new stuff while I was a fan. So this was great news. I just read Doug Fishers interwies from Ottowa citizen, 'till it got under my skin, till it was in my blood, like holy wine. Now - after re-reading it, I see the point some made that they are not surprised of Joni appearing as a social critic on this album too. She raises social critic in the interview which seem to have been given in the middel of the flow "Shine" was born from. Interstingly, though, Joni says: "Since religions have failed and politics have failed and the world is in a massive mess with nobody is at the helm, the job of the artist becomes all the more important," Ms. Mitchell said. "You have to make some kind of an attempt, not to offend leaders and society, but to include and inspire them to be far-sighted." ...and Besides, she said, "you have to be careful how you put things these days or somebody'll kill you." I guess that's what she tries to do...She use her position as one of todays most acclaimed artists to try to influence the world political, hats of Joni, I think that is great. But, at some point, I feel that the humor is gone. Where is the sweet inspiration... I thin Mark L. Levinson put i greatly, in saying that: "It's as if Ms. Mitchell looks at life from one side now... " Because for me the texts on "Shine" appears only to be social critic, critic of the president and of the mess the world is in....And, in only text version, I think too the words for the album "Shine"appears a little flat. Mr. Levinson also said that: "But there have been other instances in which her music has made all the difference; maybe this time too..." And AMEN to that. Although "Woodstock" is considered a great poem of Camille Paglia and others, it wouldn't be the same without a melody, not for me anyways. I think sometimes the people being most critical of Joni and for example her signig up with Starbucks appears as the most creative. I think this is really funny: "What happened to the ideals of the Sixties? They put up a parking lot, apparently..." It was in the end of a person critizing Joni for signing up with Starbucks for providing free coffe to the the Troops at Guantanomo Bay... Smart, a bit wicked and very funny! I must say that I can see why people was and is being a bit shocked and surpirsed for Joni signing up with Starbucks. In that very same interview with Ottowa Citiizen. "The record labels are criminally insane ... ugly, screwed up, crooked, uncreative, selfish," she told the Citizen. "After the last work that I did, the vice-president of the company (Reprise) came up to me and said, 'Joan, this is a work of genius, but we're just selling cars now. We've got cute cars, we've got fast cars, we've got ugly cars - and we just don't know what to do with your car.'" ...I'll just hope that Starbucks and Hear Music proves us wrong - and surpise us as not being all that, but my hopes aren't too high. Well, I am of course happy that Joni is signed up with somebody, just as happy as I would be I she signed up withe some of the criminal, insane, screwed up, crooked, uncreative and selfish record company she critizes her, I want to hear her music, I don't mind. But in a way I mind a bit too, because she has been so clear, and suddenly she changes her mind. So to Mike in Barcelona. I think your point about having principles and not followig them when it all comes down to a critical point, is a really good one. Because why do we at all carry principles, maybe we should just throw them away, and float on, all right, happy-go-lucky-like...? Joni is our Dear Lady of Duality. She is all of it. That is what I love so much about her. Now I'm lsitening to Chalk Mark in the Rain Storm, a record of some minor status here on the list, but I think also that has some great tracks. Joni is not just a lonely painter, she is one of the greates. And I'm sure she will surprise us with strange chords, beautiful voice and good arrangements on "Shine" too. And I would be thrilled to watch the Ballet with her music. It's great that Joni is back, and great that Starbucks pus she into it. But where is that crackin-up-humor, and that sparkle in the eye I dont see it yet. But I am, as many of you entertained and thrilled of a boy at my age who sees it: . a nearly 64 year old woman has the voice of a loud as hell 29 year old jersey boy..I will play this album..full blast as close to the white house as I can get.. Viva Joni!! So go Kevin, go, go, go ! And please enlighten us more with your Joni-Love. And if Shine has the same energy as Dog eat Dog, well, that would be a blessing to all of man-kind. This was extremely long, but I had so many things to say... so please bear with me Love and have a great weekend ! Oddmund, Norway ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:17:36 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Shine lyrics, njc In a message dated 8/17/2007 10:48:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, notaro@stpt.usf.edu writes: God intends it, demands that every act of intercourse be open to life. Even between husband and wife, every completed sexual act must take place exclusively within natural, unobstructed intercourse. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Wow, if our world isn't already too populated, imagine no contraception every single time two people become intimate! This is sort of off topic in a trivial manner as you're discussing a serious matter but it pops into my head anyhow. I recall watching some British comedy a month or so ago at a friend's house (I can't remember which...the Life Of Brian maybe? I'm not sure) which pokes fun at this notion. There was this married couple who were DEVOUT Catholics in the truest form. You meet their family and find their 10+ kids because they believe contraception is evil! I suppose it's actually funny when you see it...you know one of those you had to be there sort of things... - -Monika ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:51:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Shine lyrics, njc <(I can't remember which...the Life Of Brian maybe? I'm not sure) > It's from "The Meaning of Life", accompanied by the brilliant song "Every Sperm is Sacred". Bob NP: Damian Nixon, "Coyote" - --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:59:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Peep Richman Subject: Re: It's Bo on a sunny Saturday...46 days to wait! Hello to all our family members! My computer is right next to my bedroom window that gives me the pleasure of watching my little garden grow. I have a bird bath and to have the chance to see different and new birds cool off with a bath and a drink of clean water makes me so happy. It's a HUMID and hot one today but here I am safely tucked away in my little "canyon" (hardly...that's really my fantasy) and I have the magnificent opportunity to write to people who are sensitive, oh so bright, gifted in many ways, and, of course, we all share our love of Joni. I won't read the lyrics or see the cover until the actual day of the release. My anticipation is HUGE and I'm so 'self-disciplined' I really can't believe it...maybe it's the result from the process of growing older...operative word...'growing'! There always has been a controversial foundation to many of Joni's lyrics. Personally, I doubt if she gives this a thought or cares. The power of the unconscious, and Joni's natural gift of blending her subconscious with her perceptions of her world and the many people who are so blessed from the experience of knowing Joni, can't be, in my thinking, over-stated. Joni is magnificently honest...even raw with her myriad of thoughts and emotions..."Shine", I can't imagine, will lack these qualities we love so dearly about our Joni. I've thought about this recently and, actually for many years, come to think of it, but I've never analyzed Joni's lyrics....I react to them...they so often evoke a super-strong personal reaction within me...I wonder about what she writes and how she delivers her lyrics with the musical instrument of her voice. Please don't misunderstand my thinking and sharing this with you. I love to read all of your postings and the marvelous interactions that may follow, but today I just felt like writing about how I feel about the release of "Shine". I grew up in the 1960's and 1970's...gee, hope I'm still growing...hitchhiked to Woodstock for my honeymoon with Ken...and the last time I saw Richard was in 2002, after a 20 year loving (I thought) sharing of our lives together...immediately after we were financially forced to sell our beloved house that had been my dream for 17 previous years, he moved 'with' me to an apartment and late that night he just said he couldn't live there and walked out. There wasn't a discussion...warning...nothing. I just told him I wished him the very best of life...that I wish that this will include excellent health, and a new love. That was it. We talked briefly two days later and that's that. The point is, I have the values I held dearly to my heart that were such a strong part of those previous decades, and after Richard left, and there were so many overwhelming changes in my life, I remember arranging Joni's albums, from her first to the last, all covering my floor, and listening to every single word, note and thoughts she shared in each of her priceless works. To say the very least, it was Joni...and maybe exclusively Joni... who helped me through those vigorously emotionally demanding days and months and years. I feel I have no vocabulary to express to you how I feel about the unexpected gift of "Shine". I'm so thankful. I'm feel much like I felt in the 60's and 70's, consumed and unimaginably saddened by the unmentionable situations in our country...in so many countries on this planet. I remember going to Earth Day, and now it's so difficult for me to process what has happened to our planet. Disjointed thoughts...I know...but history tells us that our country, our planet, has always, for whatever year it might have been, experienced unspeakable horrors. And we've all heard that history repeats itself...that isn't what's primary in my mind. What exactly are we going to do about any of the many situations and unspeakable horror that is happening...right this very second? Maybe Joni is giving us a shove in a new direction with "Shine". That remains to be seen, a mystery for the moment. I'm praying...and my prayers include that Joni will really help me decide precisely how and where I can be of the most help....I'm not THAT old (57 end of this month)...I've remained in-shape...feel strong. I feel that "Shine" will help to propel me to a new destiny....a very specific way to be of some help wherever that may be. Thank you for allowing me to ramble on. Be well, be safe, my dear friends. Bo - --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:11:49 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: dave matthews and tim reynolds NJC I picked this show up day before yesterday and finished watching it last night. What a great show and the sound is wonderful. I have a 5.1 system (finally after all these years) and it really sounds terrific. I just love Dave and Tim. Best Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com On Aug 15, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Mags wrote: Victor wrote: Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds Live at Radio City Music Hall DVD at Target for $11.98 Killer audio...Dave sounds great on this. Includes a song by Daniel Lanois "The Maker" which I kind of liked. Looking forward even more to seeing them live in September, which is looking to be a great now me: Hi there, Victor, this grabbed my attention straight away because I'm a huge fan (read: am in love with ;-) lol! (understatement) Dave , and Dave with Tim. (acoustic album at Luther College). An amazing energy . I love their passion. yum lol! I tried to convince Mikey to introduce me to Dave, but he wouldnt go for it ;-) I just saw the CD on itunes for $16.99, so you've got yourself a great deal. Mags np: some new Beth Gibbons (tx to meic in barc ) ... Mysteries - --------------------------------- Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers. - --------------------------------- All new Yahoo! Mail - - --------------------------------- Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:11:09 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Slouching Towards Bethlehem's First Origination Okay, I see your point. Inspiration is okay but altering isn't. I can see that. Jim - ----- Original Message ----- > I'm not offended by great art performed poorly or imperfectly; > I'm offended by great art being fiddled with, especially by > a great artist in another field. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:39:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Mags Subject: Re: dave matthews and tim reynolds NJC hi Mikey, what the heck is a 5.1 system? i dont even own a stereo! i use my computer . :-/ and yes, M. I know that you've met Dave and Im more than a little green about that....i live vicariously through your stories :--) dave's music, such drive, such passion . that's what gets to me, and i hear he's an all round nice guy, no ego in the band whatsoever. shares the stage, it's not all about him. that sort of thing. Mags. Michael Paz wrote: I picked this show up day before yesterday and finished watching it last night. What a great show and the sound is wonderful. I have a 5.1 system (finally after all these years) and it really sounds terrific. I just love Dave and Tim. Best Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com On Aug 15, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Mags wrote: Victor wrote: Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds Live at Radio City Music Hall DVD at Target for $11.98 Killer audio...Dave sounds great on this. Includes a song by Daniel Lanois "The Maker" which I kind of liked. Looking forward even more to seeing them live in September, which is looking to be a great now me: Hi there, Victor, this grabbed my attention straight away because I'm a huge fan (read: am in love with ;-) lol! (understatement) Dave , and Dave with Tim. (acoustic album at Luther College). An amazing energy . I love their passion. yum lol! I tried to convince Mikey to introduce me to Dave, but he wouldnt go for it ;-) I just saw the CD on itunes for $16.99, so you've got yourself a great deal. Mags np: some new Beth Gibbons (tx to meic in barc ) ... Mysteries --------------------------------- Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers. --------------------------------- All new Yahoo! Mail - --------------------------------- Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane. - --------------------------------- All new Yahoo! Mail - --------------------------------- Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:38:40 -0700 (PDT) From: David Sapp Subject: Re: Shine lyrics, my take Yes I think the lyrics on Shine are more direct than some of Joni's other work... but I believe that was her intention. I remember on the Amanda Ghost interview Joni made a passing comment that Shine was "Joni for dummies" and then she chuckled... going on to say that she was dealing with major themes supported by major chords. My initial impression after reading the lyrics was that these were probably going to be perfectly crafted "pop" songs and reflective of Joni's lifelong songwriting education. These lyrics from If really jumped out at me (yes I know it's an adaptation): If you can bear to hear The truth you've spoken Twisted and misconstrued By some smug fool Or watch your life''s work Torn apart and broken down And still stoop to build again With worn out tools. I felt as if Joni could be describing her own career and what some have done to her life work in the name of criticism rather than appreciating the tremendous gift she has given the world. And reading the last two lines I imagined that was how Joni must have felt as she stooped to record again... signing off for now, Peace, David - --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:50:40 +0000 From: waytoblue@comcast.net Subject: Re: dave matthews and tim reynolds NJC Yeah....5.1 and hi def...nothing beats it. I haven't gotten through the whole thing yet but perhaps next week. Going camping this weekend. Victor NP: cheesy daytime tv in the background in the Whole Foods breakroom - -------------- Original message -------------- From: Michael Paz > I picked this show up day before yesterday and finished watching it > last night. What a great show and the sound is wonderful. I have a > 5.1 system (finally after all these years) and it really sounds > terrific. I just love Dave and Tim. > > Best > > Paz > > Michael Paz > michael@thepazgroup.com > > > > > On Aug 15, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Mags wrote: > > Victor wrote: > > Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds Live at Radio City Music Hall DVD at > Target for $11.98 > > > Killer audio...Dave sounds great on this. Includes a song by Daniel > Lanois "The Maker" which I kind of liked. Looking forward even more > to seeing them live in September, which is looking to be a great > > now me: > > Hi there, Victor, > > this grabbed my attention straight away because I'm a huge fan > (read: am in love with ;-) lol! (understatement) Dave , and Dave > with Tim. (acoustic album at Luther College). An amazing energy . I > love their passion. yum lol! I tried to convince Mikey to introduce > me to Dave, but he wouldnt go for it ;-) > > I just saw the CD on itunes for $16.99, so you've got yourself a > great deal. > > Mags > > np: some new Beth Gibbons (tx to meic in barc ) ... Mysteries > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to > Yahoo! Answers. > > --------------------------------- > All new Yahoo! Mail - > --------------------------------- > Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:41:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: Slouching Towards Bethlehem's First Origination For what it's worth, Joni did approach and receive permission from Yeats' estate to rework Slouching towards Bethlehem. I think that demonstrates commendable artistic integrity. Jerry Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Okay, I see your point. Inspiration is okay but altering isn't. I can > see > that. > > Jim > ----- Original Message ----- >> I'm not offended by great art performed poorly or imperfectly; >> I'm offended by great art being fiddled with, especially by >> a great artist in another field. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:15:27 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: dave matthews and tim reynolds NJC 2 front speakers 2 rear speakers and a subwoofer processed in digital glory. It's slamming baby. Got my whole system for about $250 books from Panasonic. Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com On Aug 17, 2007, at 11:39 AM, Mags wrote: hi Mikey, what the heck is a 5.1 system? i dont even own a stereo! i use my computer . :-/ and yes, M. I know that you've met Dave and Im more than a little green about that....i live vicariously through your stories :--) dave's music, such drive, such passion . that's what gets to me, and i hear he's an all round nice guy, no ego in the band whatsoever. shares the stage, it's not all about him. that sort of thing. Mags. Michael Paz wrote: I picked this show up day before yesterday and finished watching it last night. What a great show and the sound is wonderful. I have a 5.1 system (finally after all these years) and it really sounds terrific. I just love Dave and Tim. Best Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com On Aug 15, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Mags wrote: Victor wrote: Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds Live at Radio City Music Hall DVD at Target for $11.98 Killer audio...Dave sounds great on this. Includes a song by Daniel Lanois "The Maker" which I kind of liked. Looking forward even more to seeing them live in September, which is looking to be a great now me: Hi there, Victor, this grabbed my attention straight away because I'm a huge fan (read: am in love with ;-) lol! (understatement) Dave , and Dave with Tim. (acoustic album at Luther College). An amazing energy . I love their passion. yum lol! I tried to convince Mikey to introduce me to Dave, but he wouldnt go for it ;-) I just saw the CD on itunes for $16.99, so you've got yourself a great deal. Mags np: some new Beth Gibbons (tx to meic in barc ) ... Mysteries --------------------------------- Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers. --------------------------------- All new Yahoo! Mail - --------------------------------- Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane. - --------------------------------- All new Yahoo! Mail - --------------------------------- Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:22:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: dave matthews and tim reynolds NJC Actually Michael it is three front speakers. Jerry Michael Paz wrote: > 2 front speakers 2 rear speakers and a subwoofer processed in digital > glory. It's slamming baby. Got my whole system for about $250 books > from Panasonic. > > Paz > > Michael Paz > michael@thepazgroup.com > > > > > > On Aug 17, 2007, at 11:39 AM, Mags wrote: > > hi Mikey, > > what the heck is a 5.1 system? i dont even own a stereo! i use my > computer . :-/ > > and yes, M. I know that you've met Dave and Im more than a little > green about that....i live vicariously through your stories :--) > > > dave's music, such drive, such passion . that's what gets to me, > and i hear he's an all round nice guy, no ego in the band whatsoever. > shares the stage, it's not all about him. that sort of thing. > > Mags. > > Michael Paz wrote: > I picked this show up day before yesterday and finished watching > it last night. What a great show and the sound is wonderful. I have a > 5.1 system (finally after all these years) and it really sounds > terrific. I just love Dave and Tim. > > Best > > > Paz > > Michael Paz > michael@thepazgroup.com > > > > > > > > On Aug 15, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Mags wrote: > > Victor wrote: > > > Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds Live at Radio City Music Hall DVD at > Target for $11.98 > > > > > Killer audio...Dave sounds great on this. Includes a song by Daniel > Lanois "The Maker" which I kind of liked. Looking forward even more > to seeing them live in September, which is looking to be a great > > > now me: > > > Hi there, Victor, > > > this grabbed my attention straight away because I'm a huge fan > (read: am in love with ;-) lol! (understatement) Dave , and Dave > with Tim. (acoustic album at Luther College). An amazing energy . I > love their passion. yum lol! I tried to convince Mikey to introduce > me to Dave, but he wouldnt go for it ;-) > > > I just saw the CD on itunes for $16.99, so you've got yourself a > great deal. > > > Mags > > > np: some new Beth Gibbons (tx to meic in barc ) ... Mysteries > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go > to Yahoo! Answers. > > > --------------------------------- > All new Yahoo! Mail - > --------------------------------- > Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > All new Yahoo! Mail > --------------------------------- > Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #326 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------