From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #314 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, August 10 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 314 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- re: 'SHINE' (Cover Art) -- njc ["Ross, Les" ] Euro Fest 2008, ENGLAND.. All who are interested, or who have booked please read. [Lucy Hone ] Re: JMDL Digest V2007 #313 [Jerry Notaro ] SONG TO JONI [Vacheresse Joseph ] Re: Shine Cover Art [J Kendel Johnson ] Re: the blue strip [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Euro Fest 2008, ENGLAND.. All who are interested, or who have booked please read. [missblux@] Re: the blue strip [J Kendel Johnson ] Re: the blue strip [Jerry Notaro ] SV: JMDL Digest V2007 #313 ["Marion Leffler" ] RE: SONG TO JONI [Vacheresse Joseph ] Re: Shine Cover Art [Smurf ] njc help need stage presence [Lori Anderson ] Re: Shine Cover Art ["Randy Remote" ] Re: njc help need stage presence [Motitan@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2007 #313 ["Randy Remote" ] Re: Shine Cover Art [Motitan@aol.com] Best CD since Modern Times [Jerry Notaro ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:57:39 +0100 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: re: 'SHINE' (Cover Art) -- njc heid-worker-stanbert wrote of foot'n'mouthyme "Hi Tippie Toey, Butt isn't that you behind that blue strip... second in from the left? The Blue Stripper? Or is it that zebra lady who was at the last fest? Love, Starbuckaroo" ..only if said blue stripper's butt is located behind his knees otherwise.....it ain't me babe! and i still totally hate this cover. it is completely irredeemable. imo. hugzinmorehugs slackarseL(london) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:35:57 +0100 From: Lucy Hone Subject: Euro Fest 2008, ENGLAND.. All who are interested, or who have booked please read. Dear All Thank you for all your deposits. I have had these from: Ashara x 2 Bob Muller x 1 Catherine McKay x 3 Mike Pritchard x 1 Donna Binkley x 1 Oddmund Kaarevik x 1 Laree Martin x 5 Dave Blackburn x 2 Garrett McDermott x 2 Adrianno Lucatello x 2 Chris Marshall x 1 Jeff Hankins x 1 Paul Headon x 1 All of you are confirmed as staying on site, either in camping, as already advised to me, or in rooms which are shared, or in doubles as already confirmed. Who is where will be confirmed soon. Anyone who has been advised off list about camping, knows they are camping. ALL WHO BOOK FROM NOW ON WILL EITHER BE CAMPING OR IN B & B. Local addresses for these B and B's will be confirmed soon. Those who stay in B and B will be asked to pay a #30 a day attendance fee and this is a charge that is out of my hands. Bear with me and I will be back to you with fuller details, including the sleeping plan very soon. Work is rather hectic at the moment and I am out of the house for a miminum of 11 hours a day so getting clear time is rare. OK so that is the update. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 01:37:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Randy Johnson Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2007 #313 Per "white lines in the freeway" and its apparent cocaine reference, who else thinks the same about lines in "'Carrie"? He might be a mean OLD daddy but "get out your cane, I'll put on my finest silver" sound highly suspect to me. And of course "You're So Sqauare's "you don't like to toot and talk all night long". Somehow with Joni's verbose nature, i am sure those talks extended long into the wee hours of the morning. Having listened again to HISL recently, does anyone else think it might be a drug-induced album? Just wondering. JMDL Digest wrote: JMDL Digest Friday, August 10 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 313 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: - -------- RE: Au secours....HELP..... [Les Irvin ] Re: Au secours....HELP..... [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Rolling thunder concert [Michael Paz ] Re: Au secours....HELP..... [Michael Paz ] Re: Shine Cover Art ["Cassy" ] Re: Au secours....HELP..... [Debra Shea ] Jonifest UK ? ["Joe Jones" ] re: 'SHINE' (Cover Art) [LCStanley7@aol.com] Short Joni bio and Joni as BC resident [Catherine McKay Joni and Ruby Lake Resort, BC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Rolling thunder concert [Motitan@aol.com] re: 'SHINE' (Cover Art) -- njc [Smurf ] SV: Short Joni bio and Joni as BC resident ["Marion Leffler" Re: SV: Short Joni bio and Joni as BC resident [Catherine McKay NJC Common courtesy is dead and gone? ["Patti Parlette" Coyote [KEVIN DOHENY ] From Bo [Peep Richman ] Subject: Re: the going rate????! NJC ["Jim L'Hommedieu" njc, 117 degrees in Baghdad and no water, but lots of guns ["Jim L'Hommed] Re: Jonifest UK ? NJC [Bob Muller ] Hejira on record! [Motitan@aol.com] Re: Hejira on record! [Michael Flaherty ] Re: Shine Cover Art [Michael Flaherty ] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 09:46:55 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: RE: Au secours....HELP..... >but the blue stripe on this one is disturbing >the picture for some of us I received the cover artwork today from the record company and I'm pleased to say that the final product will NOT have the blue stripe on it. I hope to get the artwork on the website soon. Les - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 12:05:07 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Au secours....HELP..... Oh masterful one Les announced : > I received the cover artwork today from the record company and I'm pleased > to say that the final product will NOT have the blue stripe on it. I hope > to get the artwork on the website soon. > Yippee! I'm so glad you let us know, and that I was wrong. Now bring on those dancing butts! Jimmy ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 11:07:09 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Rolling thunder concert You are very welcome. I had fun listening to alot of shows yesterday while I am lying around healing. I always thought there was a cocaine reference to that tune. I know she had fun "tooting and talking all night long" on many occasion. Best paz On Aug 9, 2007, at 4:50 AM, Michel BYRNE wrote: Paz - many thanks! Great to hear a guitar-driven version of Shadows and Light, a live Dont Interrupt the Sorrow, and the first ever public performance of Coyote - wow!!! Listening to that version, it seems very likely that the 'fine white lines' on the free way refer to cocaine, an interpretation i'd never really bought into- up till now. Thanks so much! Mich _________________________________________________________________ Got a favourite clothes shop, bar or restaurant? Share your local knowledge http://www.backofmyhand.com - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 11:11:34 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Au secours....HELP..... I kinda suspected that what we were seeing on AMazon was not the one. Oh ye of little faith. Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band cell-504-382-0343 http://www.preservationhall.com On Aug 9, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Les Irvin wrote: > but the blue stripe on this one is disturbing > the picture for some of us I received the cover artwork today from the record company and I'm pleased to say that the final product will NOT have the blue stripe on it. I hope to get the artwork on the website soon. Les - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 09:13:02 -0700 From: "Cassy" Subject: Re: Shine Cover Art From: "P Bear" <<< I agree with Jimmy , it spells CENSORED . Can anyone else think of another word for it ? Is it a bad cover , I do not think for this 'Shine' album . Why didn't they use the recent photo of Joni sitting with her guitar plus her group . This cover should have been used for the Ballet tribute ! >>> I've been reading the opinions of the cover shown with interest. If the banner is for censorship of naked bums it would all fit. The moon hanging over dancers who are "mooning"; everyone "shining". Cassy - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 09:27:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Debra Shea Subject: Re: Au secours....HELP..... - - --- Christian MACKOWSKI wrote: > When I 'm reading all kinds of instinctive analysis > about the FAMOUS COVER > from the last and next album from Our International > Great Artist and > Magnificent PAINTER over that planet , I AM FED UP > !!!!!!! > Who do you think you are , to get this judgement so > abrupt just seeing and > guessing that....."IT IS NOT AT ALL WHAT SHE HAD TO > DO !!!!!!!" Joni fans sure are passionate! Another way Joni fans show their passion, Christian, is to look closely, really closely, at whatever she does and have an opinion about it. That opinion may not always be 100% favorable. Every artist knows that once the work goes out into the marketplace, it's up for grabs. Thank goodness that after decades in the marketplace, Joni still has fans that are paying such close attention. And, you're right, Christian, the music is her most important gift. Brace yourself, though. There will probably be less than 100% favorable reactions to that too. I'm glad to read the message from Les that the final cover art will not have that blue stripe. I'm really curious about how all those little legs are going to hook up with the dancers' torsos. Debra Shea ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 17:29:20 +0100 From: "Joe Jones" Subject: Jonifest UK ? Hi, please forgive my ignorance but is there a 2007 Jonifest in the UK ? Thanks - Joe np - Ryan Adams - Live at St. Lukes, HOSL demos - - -- Joe Jones +44 7758 106430 (UK) +420 608 378 729 (CR) - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 13:20:37 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: re: 'SHINE' (Cover Art) An foot from inside a mouth spoke: > eeeuuuw! that's nasty. bleuch! IMO > canNOT believe she got behind THIS! > if that's going to be the cover, i'll be taking my copy of this release from > i-tons. > no, i don't believe this is the cover. wont. can't make me. > Hi Tippie Toey, Butt isn't that you behind that blue strip... second in from the left? The Blue Stripper? Or is it that zebra lady who was at the last fest? Love, Starbuckaroo ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 14:02:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Short Joni bio and Joni as BC resident Found this snooping around on google when I'm supposed to be working: - - --------------------------------------------- http://www.abcbookworld.com/?state=view_author&author_id=2817 MITCHELL, Joni Joni Mitchell has been a part-time resident of B.C. since 1971 when she bought a 40-acre retreat home north of Halfmoon Bay on the Sunshine Coast. She ranks with Bryan Adams as the most-heard-of and most-heard B.C. author. Born at Fort MacLeod, Alberta, in 1943, she was christened Roberta Joan by her parents William and Myrtle Anderson. Her father was an ex-RCAF officer and a grocery store manager. When the family moved to Saskatoon, Joni Mitchell took piano lessons and taught herself to play the guitar from an instruction book, developing her penchant for unusual tunings. She attended Alberta College of Art in Calgary and was encouraged by friends to perform as a folksinger in Toronto. She worked briefly as a department store clerk in order to her earn $140 for the musicians union fee. In Toronto she met a singer from Detroit named Chuck Mitchell, whom she married in 1965. She went to Detroit to sing at coffeehouses before they broke up in 1966. Joni Mitchell moved from New York to Californias Laurel Canyon in 1968. Prior to her professional career as a solo act, she had a child that was given up for adoption. She reunited with her daughter in the 1990s, with mixed results. As a British Columbian, Mitchell has kept a low profile, vising several times a year, or less. In the summer of 1995, however, she made a rare stage appearance without an instrument in order to discuss her writing as part of the Festival of the Written Arts in Sechelt. Prior to her introduction, she confessed she was extremely nervous about presenting herself as a writer. Since then Joni Mitchell has been involved in numerous book projects, having rejected the music industry and devoted more of her time to her painting. Several book projects have arisen in conjunction with her lyrics and art, but a long-in-progress autobiography or authorized biography has yet to appear. She was featured on the cover of BC BookWorld, Summer, 1995. BOOKS: Joni Mitchell: Lyrics & Poems (Random House, 1997) [Alan Twigg / BCBW 2003] "Music" - - ------------------------------------------------------Info Following her highly publicized reunion with the daughter she gave up for adoption 30 years ago, Sunshine Coaster Joni Mitchell has also signed a deal for an autobiography. Mitchell's collection of song lyrics and poems is due this fall (Crown). [BCBW 1997] - - ------------------------------------------------------ PLEASE NOTE: This reference site is provided and managed by B.C. BookWorld ). It was established with the generous assistance of the Simon Fraser University Library. Anyone consulting the data is hereby notified that BC BookWorld cannot and does not guarantee the veracity of every piece of information that is presented. - - ------------------------------------------------------ Catherine - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 14:08:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Joni and Ruby Lake Resort, BC I can't copy this in a format that will look OK - it's a pdf in a column style with ads interspersed. In any case, if you follow the link, check out the painting behind Chef Aldo: http://www.rubylakeresort.com/doc/Coastlines_Appetizer_May06.pdf Catherine - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 15:43:45 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Rolling thunder concert I'm sorry but what was the link to this concert? I'd really like to hear it. I think this whole concert experience with Bob Dylan and "friends" (everybody was on that tour!) is very, very interesting. I'd really like to hear Joni at that time. It is a shame she didn't end up being in the movie that was filmed at the time. The scenes she was in seemed like they could have been something worthwhile. I know she said she didn't like the way she looked in the film (and then later said everyone else didn't look so wonderful either!). But the rest of the film, from what I read, sounds like a drawn out bubble of nothing. As far as "Coyote" and the white lines go, I will admit the first time I heard her say "white lines" I did think of cocaine. I automatically associate "white lines" or a "line" with cocaine. Of course, listening to the whole song, phrase ("of the freeway"), and theme of the album made me think again. Then reading up on this period and knowing Joni was using cocaine makes me think the double meaning you are talking about is more right than wrong. I love when lyrics have double meanings! Brilliant! - - -Monika ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 12:48:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: re: 'SHINE' (Cover Art) -- njc Laura wrote: < Or is it that zebra lady who was at the last fest? > Laura, That was no lady. - --SoB LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: An foot from inside a mouth spoke: > eeeuuuw! that's nasty. bleuch! IMO > canNOT believe she got behind THIS! > if that's going to be the cover, i'll be taking my copy of this release from > i-tons. > no, i don't believe this is the cover. wont. can't make me. > Hi Tippie Toey, Butt isn't that you behind that blue strip... second in from the left? The Blue Stripper? Or is it that zebra lady who was at the last fest? Love, Starbuckaroo ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour - - --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 22:09:02 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: Short Joni bio and Joni as BC resident You do get good results at work, Catherine! Thank you, for both fruits of your labor! Loved the painting behind chef Aldo! And I am really hoping for an authorized biography soon. By the way, what are the "mixed results" of Joni's reunion with her daughter? Laughing and crying? Marion, now signing off to go to sleep - - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Catherine McKay Skickat: den 9 augusti 2007 20:03 Till: joni@smoe.org Dmne: Short Joni bio and Joni as BC resident Found this snooping around on google when I'm supposed to be working: - - --------------------------------------------- http://www.abcbookworld.com/?state=view_author&author_id=2817 MITCHELL, Joni Joni Mitchell has been a part-time resident of B.C. since 1971 when she bought a 40-acre retreat home north of Halfmoon Bay on the Sunshine Coast. She ranks with Bryan Adams as the most-heard-of and most-heard B.C. author. Born at Fort MacLeod, Alberta, in 1943, she was christened Roberta Joan by her parents William and Myrtle Anderson. Her father was an ex-RCAF officer and a grocery store manager. When the family moved to Saskatoon, Joni Mitchell took piano lessons and taught herself to play the guitar from an instruction book, developing her penchant for unusual tunings. She attended Alberta College of Art in Calgary and was encouraged by friends to perform as a folksinger in Toronto. She worked briefly as a department store clerk in order to her earn $140 for the musicians union fee. In Toronto she met a singer from Detroit named Chuck Mitchell, whom she married in 1965. She went to Detroit to sing at coffeehouses before they broke up in 1966. Joni Mitchell moved from New York to Californias Laurel Canyon in 1968. Prior to her professional career as a solo act, she had a child that was given up for adoption. She reunited with her daughter in the 1990s, with mixed results. As a British Columbian, Mitchell has kept a low profile, vising several times a year, or less. In the summer of 1995, however, she made a rare stage appearance without an instrument in order to discuss her writing as part of the Festival of the Written Arts in Sechelt. Prior to her introduction, she confessed she was extremely nervous about presenting herself as a writer. Since then Joni Mitchell has been involved in numerous book projects, having rejected the music industry and devoted more of her time to her painting. Several book projects have arisen in conjunction with her lyrics and art, but a long-in-progress autobiography or authorized biography has yet to appear. She was featured on the cover of BC BookWorld, Summer, 1995. BOOKS: Joni Mitchell: Lyrics & Poems (Random House, 1997) [Alan Twigg / BCBW 2003] "Music" - - ------------------------------------------------------Info Following her highly publicized reunion with the daughter she gave up for adoption 30 years ago, Sunshine Coaster Joni Mitchell has also signed a deal for an autobiography. Mitchell's collection of song lyrics and poems is due this fall (Crown). [BCBW 1997] - - ------------------------------------------------------ PLEASE NOTE: This reference site is provided and managed by B.C. BookWorld ). It was established with the generous assistance of the Simon Fraser University Library. Anyone consulting the data is hereby notified that BC BookWorld cannot and does not guarantee the veracity of every piece of information that is presented. - - ------------------------------------------------------ Catherine - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 16:14:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: SV: Short Joni bio and Joni as BC resident - - --- Marion Leffler wrote: > I am really hoping for > an authorized biography soon. By the way, what are > the "mixed results" of > Joni's reunion with her daughter? Laughing and > crying? Yeah, we've been waiting for that bio for a while. "Mixed results" is probably referring to the fact that Joni and Kilauren have had "issues" - good times and bad, agreements and disagreements. That's what happens in any parent-child relationship, but it's probably very touchy in a case when birth-parent and birth-child don't meet until the child is 30 or so. Catherine - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:56:49 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: NJC Common courtesy is dead and gone? Maybe we should now call it uncommon courtesy? Musik Meister Muller wrote: "But I tend to think (like Victor) that the treatment I get is highly influenced by the attitude I project. When someone is rude or discourteous to me, it's their problem, not mine. And I make every effort to be courteous to both friends and strangers, and hope that maybe some of it will rub off." Exactement! It can be contagious. Good karma. Instant karma's gonna get you Gonna knock you off your feet Better recognize your brothers Everyone you meet (Not you, Bob. I mean the million lost and lonely ones without courtesy.) Mike in Barcelona shared: "Regarding Monika's comments on common courtesy, I have to agree that it is, IMHO and in my immediate surroundings, disappearing from everyday life for many people, especially on the roads here in Spain where almost nobody shows any respect for the other drivers, traffic signals, speed limits, pedestrians, cyclists etc. It's a 'fuck you, get out of my way' mentality, even on Sundays in August in the villages." That's sad! Does that happen even on your red dirt roads? Did you hear about the highway in CA (38? 138? Somewhere outside of the City of the Fallen Angels) that they had to close because of road rage? Hit and run drivers got pissed off because of construction delays and were throwing stuff and swearing at the workers. Sheesh!!! But because you are talking about Spain, I am reminded of a story, and you know what a story told is! This one is rather the opposite of yours, === message truncated === ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 07:57:58 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2007 #313 Having listened again to HISL > recently, does anyone else think it might be a drug-induced album? When I first heard it I certainly thought she had been on something! Joni had always been honest about the drug use of that era but has also played down their influence on her music. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:46:30 -0400 From: Vacheresse Joseph Subject: SONG TO JONI JOEL'S SONG TO JONI JONI, MY MESSIAH JONI, MY JOY AND MY PRIDE. TIME NOR THE SEASONS CAN FADE YOU OR CHANGE WHAT I FEEL DEEP INSIDE O, JONI, YOU BRING TEARS TO MY EYES WHEN YOU SING THOSE SAD, SWEET SONGS OF LOVE RUN DRY JONI, HOW COULD ANYONE LEAVE YOU FOR I WOULD LOVE YOU 'TIL I DIE. JONI, MORE PRECIOUS THAN DIAMONDS JONI, MORE PRECIOUS THAN GOLD YOU BRING ME TRUTH AND INSPIRATION SWEET SILVER SONG IN MY SOUL O, JONI, YOU BRING TEARS TO MY EYES --- ETC JONI, THANKS FOR THE ROSES THANK YOU FROM THIS BLUE, AGING CHILD HE KNOWS I LOVE HIM BUT SOMETIMES HE SEES ME LONGING TO RUN FREE AND WILD O , JONI, WOMAN OF HEART AND OF MIND HOW COULD MY LOVE FOR YOU EVER RUN DRY JONI, HOW COULD ANYONE LEAVE YOU FOR I WOULD LOVE YOU 'TIL I DIE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 06:18:19 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: Shine Cover Art I was just looking at the monstrosity reported to be the Shine cover art again this morning, and I was struck with this guess about it... The big blue stripe is probably NOT part of Joni's original album cover design. The album cover, sans the big blue stripe and big font repeat of "Shine" and "Joni Mitchell" is most likely printed on the shrink wrap or a special band wrapped around the CD package that was added by Hear Music and/or the Starbucks retail display designers who think the titling on her original design is to jump out at patrons. The Amazon employee creating the sales page for Shine probably just scanned the cover without removing the superimposed big blue band & titling -- or it may also be something graphically created at Amazon for reasons similar to my theories above. Otherwise, the repeat titling just doesn't make sense. I know Joni loves photography just about as much as painting, but, even without the big blue band, I am struggling, like so many, to believe this is really "it". Perhaps when the band is gone, the composition of the photograph(s) will redeem the cover, but even the font choice is difficult accept. I'm also wondering if Joni approved the big blue band or if it's been added later without her knowledge. Anything less than total control over her cover design would be totally inconsistent with her behavior so far. Maybe she WANTS the big blue band covering the photo(s) so that her creation is "unvieled" by each purchaser? Whatever the case, if it is not something that has been added at the retail level, then I don't know what to think. All I will be left with is "Very weird..." J NP Long by Brazilian Girls ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:26:02 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: the blue strip Cassy described: > The moon hanging > over dancers who are "mooning"; everyone "shining". > LOLLLLLL ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:04:16 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Re: Euro Fest 2008, ENGLAND.. All who are interested, or who have booked please read. Lucy, I'm sorry but I can't make Pay Pal work. It keeps changing my country to the UK, and I don't know what to do about it. It also tells me I used to have an account but when I sign up to be emailed info about that account nothing happens. Maybe I'll try again tomorrow, otherwise I'll have to wait until I'm back in the UK in mid-October, then I can make a bank transfer (I have a barclay's account) or make someone send you a cheque (I have no cheque-book!). Sorry about this! Bene On 8/10/07, Lucy Hone wrote: > Dear All > > Thank you for all your deposits. I have had these from: > > Ashara x 2 > Bob Muller x 1 > Catherine McKay x 3 > Mike Pritchard x 1 > Donna Binkley x 1 > Oddmund Kaarevik x 1 > Laree Martin x 5 > Dave Blackburn x 2 > Garrett McDermott x 2 > Adrianno Lucatello x 2 > Chris Marshall x 1 > Jeff Hankins x 1 > Paul Headon x 1 > > > All of you are confirmed as staying on site, either in camping, as > already advised to me, or in rooms which are shared, or in doubles as > already confirmed. Who is where will be confirmed soon. > > Anyone who has been advised off list about camping, knows they are > camping. ALL WHO BOOK FROM NOW ON WILL EITHER BE CAMPING OR IN B & B. > > Local addresses for these B and B's will be confirmed soon. > > Those who stay in B and B will be asked to pay a #30 a day attendance > fee and this is a charge that is out of my hands. > > Bear with me and I will be back to you with fuller details, including > the sleeping plan very soon. > > Work is rather hectic at the moment and I am out of the house for a > miminum of 11 hours a day so getting clear time is rare. > > > > > OK so that is the update. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 07:17:10 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: the blue strip That would be great fun, and would actually make total sense! J LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: Cassy described: > The moon hanging > over dancers who are "mooning"; everyone "shining". > LOLLLLLL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:36:44 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: the blue strip I don't think I've seen it written here, but it appears to be from the ballet where the dancers are choreographed to Night Ride Home. Can anyone who were lucky enough to see the ballet confirm this? Jerry > That would be great fun, and would actually make total sense! > > J > > LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: Cassy described: > > >> The moon hanging >> over dancers who are "mooning"; everyone "shining". >> > > LOLLLLLL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:46:33 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: JMDL Digest V2007 #313 Joni's use of drugs, like her smoking habits, are her own business entirely, imo, even if I find the idea disturbing, as I would with anybody. But - I wonder if any of Joni's albums can have been created under the direct influence of drugs? I don't know from personal experience how drugs work but I have seen people react to drugs, and they were either drowsy and incomprehensible or they were very speeded and chatty but talking nonsense, really. The only thing I can compare to is alcohol, and it has similar effects, it certainly does not help you create or think but rather dulls you. So if Joni was using drugs I imagine she did it on her leisure time and maybe worked through some of that experience later in her lyrics and music. Then again, given my inexperience with drugs, I might be entirely wrong. Anyhow, it seems to me that drugs have always been associated with artists and writers and romanticized in a way they probably don't deserve. For as far as I know, the average drug user is not a creative artist but suffers from a prosaic addiction. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Jerry Notaro Skickat: den 10 augusti 2007 13:58 Till: Randy Johnson; Joni List Dmne: Re: JMDL Digest V2007 #313 Having listened again to HISL > recently, does anyone else think it might be a drug-induced album? When I first heard it I certainly thought she had been on something! Joni had always been honest about the drug use of that era but has also played down their influence on her music. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:49:28 -0400 From: Vacheresse Joseph Subject: RE: SONG TO JONI - -----Original Message----- From: Vacheresse Joseph [mailto:Joseph.Vacheresse@B2B-TRUST.COM] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 8:47 AM To: 'JONI@SMOE.ORG' Subject: SONG TO JONI JOEL'S SONG TO JONI JONI, MY MESSIAH JONI, MY JOY AND MY PRIDE. TIME NOR THE SEASONS CAN FADE YOU OR CHANGE WHAT I FEEL DEEP INSIDE O, JONI, YOU BRING TEARS TO MY EYES WHEN YOU SING THOSE SAD, SWEET SONGS OF LOVE RUN DRY JONI, HOW COULD ANYONE LEAVE YOU FOR I WOULD LOVE YOU 'TIL I DIE. JONI, MORE PRECIOUS THAN DIAMONDS JONI, MORE PRECIOUS THAN GOLD YOU BRING ME TRUTH AND INSPIRATION SWEET SILVER SONG IN MY SOUL O, JONI, YOU BRING TEARS TO MY EYES --- ETC JONI, THANKS FOR THE ROSES THANK YOU FROM THIS BLUE, AGING CHILD HE KNOWS I LOVE HIM BUT SOMETIMES HE SEES ME LONGING TO RUN FREE AND WILD O , JONI, WOMAN OF HEART AND OF MIND HOW COULD MY LOVE FOR YOU EVER RUN DRY JONI, HOW COULD ANYONE LEAVE YOU FOR I WOULD LOVE YOU 'TIL I DIE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 07:45:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Shine Cover Art Perhaps the dancers' bottoms are bare, and the Starbucks Corporation has deemed full-backal nudity inappropriate for coffee-drinking children. Joni's artwork (i.e., her recent photo show) has been fresh and exciting lately. I hope that this cliched image of hands reaching out to a celestial entity is not final art. --SoB J Kendel Johnson wrote: I was just looking at the monstrosity reported to be the Shine cover art again this morning, and I was struck with this guess about it... The big blue stripe is probably NOT part of Joni's original album cover design. The album cover, sans the big blue stripe and big font repeat of "Shine" and "Joni Mitchell" is most likely printed on the shrink wrap or a special band wrapped around the CD package that was added by Hear Music and/or the Starbucks retail display designers who think the titling on her original design is to jump out at patrons. The Amazon employee creating the sales page for Shine probably just scanned the cover without removing the superimposed big blue band & titling -- or it may also be something graphically created at Amazon for reasons similar to my theories above. Otherwise, the repeat titling just doesn't make sense. I know Joni loves photography just about as much as painting, but, even without the big blue band, I am struggling, like so many, to believe this is really "it". Perhaps when the band is gone, the composition of the photograph(s) will redeem the cover, but even the font choice is difficult accept. I'm also wondering if Joni approved the big blue band or if it's been added later without her knowledge. Anything less than total control over her cover design would be totally inconsistent with her behavior so far. Maybe she WANTS the big blue band covering the photo(s) so that her creation is "unvieled" by each purchaser? Whatever the case, if it is not something that has been added at the retail level, then I don't know what to think. All I will be left with is "Very weird..." J NP Long by Brazilian Girls - --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:33:22 +0000 From: Lori Anderson Subject: njc help need stage presence Hi all. Well I need some advice. Tomorrow I am going to be performing in a rock concert with my blues band. So whats the problem you ask. well it4s been 7 aqos since I have performed. The stage is big and I am going to have to entertain like I mean dance aroud and such. Of course I am doing this to have a good time but I am soo nervous. I have been studying belly dance for the past 2 years and it invades my dancing. I am so afraid to appear ridiculous up there. I have lost my self esteem due to a very dificult relationship and I have gotten back into singing to find myself again. People seem to love my voice but I am so hard on myself. Anybody out there who can give me some advice. Thanks Lori (Century) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:47:14 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: Shine Cover Art Am I the only one who is greatly relieved that the cover is not yet another flat, one-dimensional self portrait? I don't see what's so bad about this one. RR, army of one >I was just looking at the monstrosity reported to be the Shine cover art >again this morning, and I was struck with this guess about it... > J ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:42:51 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: njc help need stage presence In a message dated 8/10/2007 11:37:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buenamusa@hotmail.com writes: I am so afraid to appear ridiculous up there. I have lost my self esteem due to a very dificult relationship - ------------------------------------------------ I am very sorry to hear about your difficult relationship and consequently your lack of self esteem. Just remember you don't need a person to complete you. And anyone who knocks you down so much isn't worth it. Don't let 'em get to you. You are a very special person. I don't even know you but I'm sure it is true. I mean, Christ, you're in a blues band about to perform on stage. How cool is that? Anyhow, the most I can tell you is to have (or atleast appear to have) confidence. If you go up there looking like you know what you are doing, enjoying yourself, and appearing to not care less about what others think--well that's more than enough. Just PRETEND to have confidence. The greatest performers, in my opinion, go up on stage looking CONFIDENT. Confidence, confidence, confidence! If you're up there dancing like you just don't care, other people will dig it. Just look at Joni. When she's performing,she's very intensely focused on the task at hand and appears confident. Just the bravado itself will suffice. Many artists are far from confident in their personal lives and often have many troubling issues anyway...but on stage, they own it. Just have fun and you won't appear ridiculous! Good luck! - -Monika P.S. You are always harder on yourself than anyone is on you. And you're always more critical of yourself performing than anyone in the audience is of you. ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:43:40 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2007 #313 > Joni's use of drugs, like her smoking habits, are her own business > entirely, > imo, even if I find the idea disturbing, as I would with anybody. But - I > wonder if any of Joni's albums can have been created under the direct > influence of drugs? I don't know from personal experience how drugs work > but > I have seen people react to drugs, and they were either drowsy and > incomprehensible or they were very speeded and chatty but talking > nonsense, > really. The only thing I can compare to is alcohol, and it has similar > effects, it certainly does not help you create or think but rather dulls > you. Cocaine doesn't make you drowsy! Quite the opposite. There are lots of classifications of drugs; stimulants like coke, cigarettes, caffiene (yes, pepsi is a drug!), psychedelics, depressants like alcohol, pills, heroin, hypnotics like Prosac and television. Drugs are everywhere in various forms. It's funny that people have such a naive attitude about musicians and drugs, or have this virginal picture of Joni. Like you say, artists and writers have been using mind altering substances for centuries. Often alcohol (Hemingway, Oscar Wilde, etc), so if something better came along, (and most drugs are better than alcohol, don't ask me how I know), why wouldn't they try it? And she did. You can bank on it. RR So if Joni was using drugs I imagine she did it on her leisure time and > maybe worked through some of that experience later in her lyrics and > music. > > Then again, given my inexperience with drugs, I might be entirely wrong. > Anyhow, it seems to me that drugs have always been associated with artists > and writers and romanticized in a way they probably don't deserve. For as > far as I know, the average drug user is not a creative artist but suffers > from a prosaic addiction. > Marion > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Jerry > Notaro > Skickat: den 10 augusti 2007 13:58 > Till: Randy Johnson; Joni List > Dmne: Re: JMDL Digest V2007 #313 > > Having listened again to HISL >> recently, does anyone else think it might be a drug-induced album? > > When I first heard it I certainly thought she had been on something! > Joni had always been honest about the drug use of that era but has also > played down their influence on her music. > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:54:05 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Shine Cover Art As was mentioned, someone suggested that perhaps Joni is finding inspiration in ballet and in the dancers themselves. That is a good point. When you think about it, Joni has said many times in previous interviews how she herself loved/loves to dance. She also has many positive, glowing references to "dancing" in her lyrics. - -Monika ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:52:56 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Best CD since Modern Times Joni Mitchell: The legendary singer-songwriter is back Pierre Perrone is the first to hear her long-awaited album By Pierre Perrone Published: 10 August 2007 Joni Mitchell: The legendary singer-songwriter is back Joni Mitchell says that she's not ready for retirement after all Ten years ago, it looked like Joni Mitchell's life had gone full circle. This most archetypal of singer-songwriters was inducted into the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame along with her old friends Crosby, Stills and Nash. But, more importantly, she was reunited with the daughter she'd given away for adoption after becoming pregnant in the mid-Sixties, and her musical and personal journey - which had taken her from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan to Laurel Canyon, California via Greenwich Village, New York - seemed complete. "In some ways, my gift for music and writing was born out of tragedy and loss," she told the documentary-maker Susan Lacy. "When my daughter returned to me, the gift kind of went with it. The songwriting was almost like something I did while I was waiting for my daughter to come back." In 1998, Mitchell released Taming The Tiger, her last album of new material, and toured the US and Canada that year, and again in 2000. After that, as she explained during a two-part Radio 2 documentary broadcast earlier this year, she spent most of her time painting, watching old movies and listening to talk radio. "I came to hate music," she admitted to her friend the British songwriter Amanda Ghost. Indeed, in 2002, as she issued Travelogue, a double CD on which she revisited her repertoire with orchestral backing, Mitchell announced she'd had enough of "the corrupt cesspool, the pornographic pigs" of the music industry and would be a recording artist no more. "Nothing sounded genuine or original. Truth and beauty were passi. I got the picture. I quit the business," she said. And, despite working with Rhino, the reissue arm of Warners, on a couple of thematic compilations of her oeuvre, she was as good as her word. Until last year, that is, when Jean Grand-Mantre, the artistic director of the Alberta Ballet, contacted Mitchell for permission to use her compositions in a ballet. Rather than simply let him choose songs to fit what would have been a "somewhat autobiographical" piece called Dancing Joni, she helped the project evolve into The Fiddle and the Drum, which premiered in Calgary, Canada, in February. She contributed some of her politically charged paintings to the set design and also delivered a couple of new songs she'd been working on, an adaptation of Rudyard Kipling's "If" - - her favourite poem - and "If I Had A Heart". These compositions are now two of the pivotal tracks on Shine, Mitchell's new album to be released via Hear Music, the Starbucks-owned label, in the US and Canada, and the Concord Music Group/ Universal in the UK and the rest of Europe at the end of September. A listen to the 10 tracks last week confirmed that Shine lives up to Mitchell's assertion that it's "as serious a work as I've ever done". In fact, I'll go further: aside from the accordion-driven reinterpretation of "Big Yellow Taxi", her only British hit single and her second most-covered song (190-plus versions and counting but still way behind "Both Sides Now"), which is obviously aimed at radio programmers, this is the best album by an artist of her generation since Bob Dylan's Modern Times. As she had barely picked up a guitar in 10 years, Mitchell started at the piano with "One Week Last Summer", a dreamy, chill-out instrumental reminiscent of her beloved Debussy, as well as Brian Eno's ambient music. What she calls "the piano-dominant songs" form the core of Shine, the most bare album she has made since the early Seventies. The jazzy feel of "This Place", "Hana" and the anti-war "Strong is Wrong" is deceptive and all the more effective as the stark lyrics sink in, while the haunting "If I Had a Heart" and "Bad Dreams are Good" sound like laments for planet Earth. Starbucks customers caught unawares might gulp on their lattes, but what should they expect from the woman who presciently wrote, "they paved paradise and put up a parking lot" in 1970? In fact, in the context of what is a mission-statement album, the reinterpretation of "Big Yellow Taxi" makes perfect sense. "Shine", the floating, ethereal title track, and "If", the album closer adapted from Kipling's poem, feel like hopeful elegies and chinks of light at the end of the tunnel. Even if Ken Lombard, the Hear Music supremo and president of Starbucks Entertainment, used the Radiohead rumours as a smokescreen on his recent visit to the UK, the announcement that Mitchell had followed in the footsteps of Sir Paul McCartney and signed to the Starbucks-owned label shouldn't come as too much of a surprise. Getting involved with the Starbucks Hear Music project in 2005 had already helped change her gloomy outlook. Mitchell allowed the coffee company to issue a Selected Songs compilation of her catalogue, cherry-picked by the likes of Elvis Costello, Dylan and Chaka Khan, and also assembled her own favourite music - tracks by Debussy, Duke Ellington, Billie Holiday, Miles Davis, Louis Jordan, Chuck Berry, Steely Dan, Deep Forest, Edith Piaf, Etta James, Ray Charles, Marvin Gaye, Dylan, Leonard Cohen and The New Radicals - for their Artist's Choice series. "I reviewed the songs and compositions that, over the course of my life, really got to me. I needed to remember what it was that I had once loved about music," she reflected. Having badmouthed the majors and US radio, this iconic artist also knew she had to figure out a way of getting her new music to her original Sixties' and Seventies' fanbase and possibly reach out to a younger demographic. The Starbucks tie-up couldn't be more timely, since singer-songwriters of both genders currently dominate radio formats around the world. Mitchell's eagerly awaited comeback could also help put in perspective her unique achievements and demonstrate how much she has inspired and influenced everyone from Suzanne Vega and Beth Orton to KT Tunstall via Morrissey and Prince - who swears that The Hissing of Summer Lawns, Mitchell's 1975 album, is "the greatest record ever made". Even Madonna is a fan. "I worshipped her when I was in high school. I knew every word to Court and Spark," Madonna has said. "Blue is amazing. I would have to say that, of all the women I've heard, she had the most profound effect on me from a lyrical point of view." Born Roberta Joan Anderson on 7 November 1943 in Fort McLeod, Alberta, the girl who began calling herself Joni in her early teens is the only child of William Anderson, who managed a grocery store after he served in the Royal Canadian Air Force during the Second World War, and Myrtle "Mickey" McKee, a schoolteacher. Looking out of the window at the wheat fields, the wide open landscape, the railtracks and the highway outside the homes they lived in first in Maidstone, then in North Battleford and finally in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, she already felt a "permanent longing to set off and go somewhere." She took piano lessons for a year and a half but got her knuckles wrapped for improvising her own tunes. When she contracted polio aged nine, she spent weeks in hospital, but made it home by Christmas, defying the nuns' expectations and the doctor's diagnosis. "I walked. So polio, in a way, germinated an inner life and a sense of the mystic. It was mystical to come back from that disease," she later recalled. At 13, she joined the local choir. Arthur Kratzman, her English teacher, encouraged her painting and writing to such an extent that she subsequently dedicated her debut album to him. The teenage Joni used all the money she'd made modelling for a department store to buy a $36 ukulele because the acoustic guitar she really wanted was too expensive. With the help of a Pete Seeger method, she taught herself a few chords and started singing in coffee houses while studying at the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology. "In the beginning, I thought of myself as confident mimic of Joan Baez and Judy Collins," she said. "As a painter, I had the need to innovate. As a musician... at that time, it was just a hobby. I didn't think I had the gift to take it any further." Losing her virginity and becoming pregnant in 1964 by fellow student Brad McGrath set off a chain of events as the couple first moved to Toronto to hide her pregnancy and then split. She still played the occasional gig while working in a department store and gave birth to Kelly Dale Anderson on 19 February 1965. A month later, she met folk musician Chuck Mitchell and they married because she hoped to create a family unit for the daughter she had put in a foster home, but he went back on his promise and she gave Kelly up for adoption. They moved to Detroit, though the ill-matched acoustic duo they formed didn't last, her husband unable to understand that the guilt Mitchell suffered had made her wise beyond her years. "I started writing to develop my own private world and also because I was disturbed," she admitted. "I feel grateful for every bit of trouble I went through. Bad fortune changed the course of my destiny. I became a musician." Tom Rush stopped by the couple's Detroit apartment, instantly understood where "Day After Day", "Both Sides, Now" and "Little Green" came from, and recorded Joni's composition "Urge For Going". "Tom would say, 'Do you have any new songs?' I'd play him a batch and he'd say, 'Any more?' I always held out the ones that I felt were too sensitive, or too feminine, and those would always be the ones he chose. Because of Tom, I began to get noticed," she remembered. As Dave Van Ronk and Buffy Sainte-Marie also began performing her songs, Mitchell left her husband in 1967 and moved to New York. She found herself more at home in Greenwich Village and made her first visit to the UK where the American producer and guru of the underground scene Joe Boyd introduced her to the Incredible String Band and Fairport Convention, who recorded her composition "Chelsea Morning" in 1968. With Judy Collins including a definitive rendition of "Both Sides Now" on her Wildflowers album, Mitchell became the most talked-about singer-songwriter without a recording contract. This was rectified when she met manager Elliot Roberts, who secured her a deal with Reprise Records as she hooked up with David Crosby. The former member of The Byrds had seen her in a club in Florida and produced her eponymous debut, the one most fans call Song to a Seagull. Mitchell was the muse of Laurel Canyon, the poster girl of the hippie generation. She wrote the era-defining "Woodstock", anticipated green concerns with "Big Yellow Taxi", her breakthrough hit, in 1970, and recorded the must-have albums Clouds, Ladies of the Canyon, Blue, For the Roses and Court and Spark. Over the next two decades, she refused to be pigeonholed as the folkie with the sweet soprano voice and flaxen hair, and moved into pop, rock, jazz, and what wasn't yet called world music and electronica. From the mid-Seventies, Mitchell's back story seemed to affect people's perception of her, yet she kept moving into more challenging territory, recording with the jazz stalwarts Wayne Shorter, Jaco Pastorius and Charles Mingus, who made the most of her unusual chord structures. "For years everybody said, 'Joni's weird chords, Joni's weird chords'," she has said, "and I thought, 'how can chords be weird?' Chords are depictions of your emotions, they feel like my feelings. I called them Chords of Inquiry, they had a question mark in them," she explained. "There were so many unresolved things in me that those suspended chords I found by twisting the knobs on my guitar, they just suited me." But Mitchell always had a hard time coming to terms with fame, and first talked about quitting live performances during a concert at the Royal Albert Hall in London in 1970. "I never liked the roar of the big crowd. I could never adjust to the sound of people gasping at the mere mention of my name. It horrified me," she confessed. "And I also knew how fickle people could be. I knew that they were buying an illusion, and I thought maybe they should know a little more about who I am. I didn't want there to be such a gulf between who I presented and who I was. David Geffen [her agent, her roommate and her label boss in the Seventies and Eighties] used to tell me that I was the only star he ever met who wanted to be ordinary. I never wanted to be a star. I didn't like entering a room with all eyes on me." She disappeared to the wilds of Canada at regular intervals and kept questioning the mendacious workings of the music business, as far back as the For the Roses album with "You Turn Me On, I'm a Radio" in 1972. Having announced her retirement in 2002, Mitchell enjoyed her new role as mother and grandmother and really thought she wouldn't go back to making music. All this has changed now with this unexpected burst of creativity and a renewed sense of urgency and concern about the state of the world. As she told The Word magazine earlier this year: "I'm not interested in escapist entertainment when the planet is at red alert. We're busy wasting our time on this fairy-tale war when nobody's fighting for God's creation. I realised I wasn't ready for retirement." With a mixed media exhibition due to open in New York in the autumn and Shine, Joni Mitchell is back. What a long strange trip it's been. 'Shine' is out on Concord/Universal on 24 September ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #314 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------