From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #287 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, July 27 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 287 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter [jeannie ] Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter [jeannie ] Re: Starbucks Rumor Confirmed [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter ["Owen Duff" ] Re: Starbucks Reckless Daughter ["Owen Duff" ] Re: Starbucks Reckless Daughter [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Joni's latest sales [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Joni and E Online w/Picture ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter [motitan@aol.com] Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter [Victor Johnson ] a Joni mention in the workplace ["Patti Parlette" ] Re: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter [jeannie ] Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter [Rusty10113@aol.com] Re: Fwd: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter [jeannie ] Re: Ehtiopian Farmers/Spiegel article [jeannie Subject: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter Maybe it's just meant to be. That's the only way I can look at it and I feel comfortable with a Starbuck's coffee in my hand and a computer on the other when I feel like slipping out sometimes. Now, this shall be playing through my head, jsolely, for a second or so, for some of Shakesperian's comic relief, "We are Starbucks, we are golden''.. Then it must go back to its original version, untouched, in my heart. Jean AJ wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen Duff" >I have to say that, having read Joni's recent interviews, I am extremely >surprised and more than a bit disappointed at her decision to sign with >Hear. She's made such a fuss in the press about the actions of global >corporations! She berates other people for their greed and profiteering, >and yet the best explanation that anyone can come up with for her signing >with Starbucks is that it'll make her more money... I'm really very puzzled >by this. > > Obviously Joni can make whatever decision she wants for whatever reason, > but her words ring somewhat hollow for me now that her actions have, in my > eyes, contradicted them. And I don't agree with the justification that > reaching a new audience is more important than who sells the CD. To me, > standing by what one (loudly and grumpily!) purports to be their > principals is more important than selling something, or reaching a new > audience or whatever else she's attempting to do. ________________________________________________________________ If you make art in the world today, you inevitably end up making compromises. I, for instance, am a huge believer in independent bookstores (which are closing at staggering rates because of the big chains), buy most of my books from independent bookstores, and know that the only hope for serious fiction and poetry is the independent bookseller. But I had to swallow my distaste and do a reading/signing last year at Barnes and Noble because it is the only bookstore in the small city where my parents live. Obviously Mitchell's situation is different. But if she wants to be heard, I'm not sure what other choice she has. - --AJ, who hates being a pragmatist Dreaming Dreamland, Jeannie jjj . - --------------------------------- Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 00:05:00 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter Maybe it's just meant to be. That's the only way I can look at it and I feel comfortable with a Starbuck's coffee in my hand and a computer on the other when I feel like slipping out sometimes. Now, this shall be playing through my head, jsolely, for a second or so, for some of Shakesperian's comic relief, "We are Starbucks, we are golden''.. Then it must go back to its original version, untouched, in my heart. Jean AJ wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen Duff" >I have to say that, having read Joni's recent interviews, I am extremely >surprised and more than a bit disappointed at her decision to sign with >Hear. She's made such a fuss in the press about the actions of global >corporations! She berates other people for their greed and profiteering, >and yet the best explanation that anyone can come up with for her signing >with Starbucks is that it'll make her more money... I'm really very puzzled >by this. > > Obviously Joni can make whatever decision she wants for whatever reason, > but her words ring somewhat hollow for me now that her actions have, in my > eyes, contradicted them. And I don't agree with the justification that > reaching a new audience is more important than who sells the CD. To me, > standing by what one (loudly and grumpily!) purports to be their > principals is more important than selling something, or reaching a new > audience or whatever else she's attempting to do. ________________________________________________________________ If you make art in the world today, you inevitably end up making compromises. I, for instance, am a huge believer in independent bookstores (which are closing at staggering rates because of the big chains), buy most of my books from independent bookstores, and know that the only hope for serious fiction and poetry is the independent bookseller. But I had to swallow my distaste and do a reading/signing last year at Barnes and Noble because it is the only bookstore in the small city where my parents live. Obviously Mitchell's situation is different. But if she wants to be heard, I'm not sure what other choice she has. - --AJ, who hates being a pragmatist Dreaming Dreamland, Jeannie jjj . - --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:26:49 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Starbucks Rumor Confirmed Melissa, check with your nearest Starbucks store in September. As I mentioned before, they didn't carry the Artists' Choice series when I checked with them but maybe by the release of Shine, Starbucks Australia may be selling its own label. It was Starbucks Balmain that I checked with before. Mark in Sydney PS Keep warm, Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:23:43 +0000 From: "Owen Duff" Subject: Re: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter Hi AJ, I understand what you're saying, however my point really is not that Joni has made this decision (which could be for any number of reasons, including the exact deal she was offered, the relationship with the individuals at Hear, the chance of an audience) but that she has repeatedly attacked this type of corporation in the past, both in her songs and in interviews. It makes her look like a massive hypocrite! Starbucks have been rapped recently for trying to rip off Ethiopian farmers, for "trampling on Chinese culture" by opening a store in Beijing's Forbidden City and just generally for being one of the most glaring examples of cultural imperialism. Is this what Joni stands for and agrees with? I think this may be the reason it will be looked down on far more outside the U.S - Starbucks' reputation is not great here in the UK, mainly because of their aggressive business tactics in breaking independent coffee places. Yes, plenty of people go there, but I'd wager that the kind of people who listen to Joni are politically and socially aware enough to have picked up quite a negative view of the company. I really don't think this will help her public image one bit, not here anyway, and not in a lot of places. Mccartney is a joke to a lot of my peers. Joni already has a very loyal audience, she could have sold through any number of channels, she could have given away the songs on jonimitchell.com and asked for donations (which from loyal fans she would have received in spades I'm sure), which would have got her a lot of publicity and 100% of the money. She could have got a distribution/promotion deal with a less controversial company. On a personal level, years ago when Starbucks' started opening EVERYWHERE, I got annoyed by them for a number of reasons, so I took a vow never to buy anything from them in my life. I never have, and now look what's happened! And since I believe in sticking by my principles, I suppose I should forego buying 'Shine'... O Lycos email has 300 Megabytes of free storage... Get it now at mail.lycos.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:08:27 +0000 From: "Owen Duff" Subject: Re: Starbucks Reckless Daughter Hi AJ, I understand what you're saying, however my point really is not that Joni has made this decision (which could be for any number of reasons, including the exact deal she was offered, the relationship with the individuals at Hear, the chance of an audience) but that she has repeatedly attacked this type of corporation in the past, both in her songs and in interviews. It makes her look like a massive hypocrite! Starbucks have been rapped recently for trying to rip off Ethiopian farmers, for "trampling on Chinese culture" by opening a store in Beijing's Forbidden City and just generally for being one of the most glaring examples of cultural imperialism. Is this what Joni stands for and agrees with? I think this may be the reason it will be looked down on far more outside the U.S - Starbucks' reputation is not great here in the UK, mainly because of their aggressive business tactics in breaking independent coffee places. Yes, plenty of people go there, but I'd wager that the kind of people who listen to Joni are politically and socially aware enough to have picked up quite a negative view of the company. I really don't think this will help her public image one bit, not here anyway, and not in a lot of places. Mccartney is a joke to most of my peers. Joni already has a very loyal audience, she could have sold through any number of channels, she could have given away the songs on jonimitchell.com and asked for donations (which from loyal fans she would have received in spades I'm sure), which would have got her a lot of publicity and 100% of the money. She could have got a distribution/promotion deal with a less controversial company. On a personal level, years ago when Starbucks' started opening EVERYWHERE, I got annoyed by them for a number of reasons, so I took a vow never to buy anything from them in my life. I never have, and now look what's happened! And since I believe in sticking by my principles, I suppose I should forego buying 'Shine'... O Lycos email has 300 Megabytes of free storage... Get it now at mail.lycos.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:53:45 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Starbucks Reckless Daughter Oddly enough, on a strictly business level, the "Starbucks effect" has been to raise the price of a cup of coffee at small, independent stores around them. That in turn has increased profits for smaller businesses. I'm not defending Starbucks, but truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:13:53 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter Which is precisely how *you* will look when you break down and get it. Even worse, you'll get it but won't own up to getting it so you don't appear to be a "sellout". I do hope you enjoy it when you get it. Nothing is either all good or all bad, Owen. Bob NP: Joni, "Two Grey Rooms" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:25:57 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Joni's latest sales Here is the direct quote I was referencing in regard to the sales of Joni's latest projects: "Mitchell's last album of original material was 1998's "Taming the Tiger," which has sold 133,000 copies, according to Nielsen SoundScan. Since then she has done a big band project (2000's "Both Sides Now," which sold 320,000 copies) and a career overview with orchestral backing (2002's "Travelogue," which sold 72,000)." http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117969077.html?categoryid=16&cs=1 Back to me: So I was pretty good with my recollection of T'log (I said 73,000) but was way off the mark with BSN (I said 125,000). Bob NP: Ben Folds, "Dog" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:29:50 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Joni and E Online w/Picture Thanks so much Laura for this link about Joni and Starbucks! I love the picture! I found another link on this page which I would like to post because in a way, it is about us. I was one Joni amigo who was here when this took place. I will never forget the joy we all felt at that time. http://www.eonline.com/news/article/index.jsp?uuid=3b3c0443-ec77-4d0d-9271-1a939c8cf076&entry=index Sherelle Laura wrote: Story and Picture - the E Online version http://www.eonline.com/news/article/index.jsp?uuid=4269cb5f-796e-40e4-a4a2-2be3fc922e24 Laura _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:34:53 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter Hi Jimmy! In D.C. they are truly on almost every corner and usually ten deep line-wise every morning. I don't drink much coffee either but frequented them every morning for their muffins. They have good pastries as well a chai latte that's pretty good too. Too sugary for my blood anymore but they are still good! So glad you will be able to pick up Joni's CD when it comes out! I too don't care if 7-11 carries her CD. All things considered, I think this is a very innovative way to release a CD! Love, Sherelle Jimmy wrote: We've only had a Starbucks in Ft. Myers, FL for about 6 months. I know, hard to believe since they're on every corner in every city. I still have never stepped foot in one, only because I drink very little coffee and it could be Folgers Instant for all I care. I think this will give Joni some GREAT exposure, and I can finally say I walked into a Starbucks. Hell, I don't care if Joni was selling her CD in a 7-11 :) Jimmy _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:58:06 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Loose Wires Were Lashin' Out At Me Hi Christopher, I read your post with great interest. Les posted some of the negative press that has been published about her joining the "Hear" label and some of our own have expressed dissapointment with the deal as well. I'm not trying to paint an innocent picture of SBX and I agree with the person who said that most corporations have an element of greed and corruption to them. But my question is this: with the volatile nature of the Music industry right now, what else is she supposed to do? I'm not saying you are suggesting that she take a different course. You are just not very hopeful of the outcome of this arrangement. To me, with the way things are in the industry, it's a kind of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" thing. CD sales have plummeted with major labels so the CD itself is in ICU on life support at the moment. Even though I love digital music, I do not wish to see the CD go the way of the dinosaur. Major retail stores like Tower records have already done that. There's something about holding a work of art in your hands and "seeing" as well as "hearing" it in my opinion. I wasn't aware that Paul McCartney received a bashing for going with "Hear Music" but I'm not sure what other recourse or alternative either of them had given the state of things. To me, the Starbucks option is one way of preserving the sale of CD's existence. I am hoping that Joni will not become embittered over this but I understand your concern. This is why I feel it so true to always make music for yourself first and hold true to that. It's a great buffer against the slings and arrows that may come your way. There is no way Joni's ever going to find a middle ground and please everyone. Everyone has become so poloarized especially in regards to the war. She's made her decision so I hope that she will hold her head up high and be true to herself once more. It's only a hope but I'm going to hang on to it nonetheless. Sherelle Christopher wrote: Gang, I don't have high hopes for this new arrangement. Go ahead - throw fruit, whatever. I am certainly excited for the new record regardless of what it ends up sounding like (I'm sure I'll find something to like about it), and I'm excited that Joni's deal is already getting such a big media push. But here's the thing.. As an industry insider, I can't even begin to tell you all about the beating Paul McCartney took for his new CD - and part of it is b/c it got pushed to the masses. The other part is who was doing the pushing. I get several music press newsletters and Joni's already getting beaten up. So - what I see happening now is: Joni puts out Shine and rather than it making the little splash in more musically discerning circles, it's gets forced on all these people who don't have the interest or the patience, resulting in more negative press. My understanding is that the last few JM discs have sold under 50,000 copies a pop - hard to believe, but I'm pretty sure that's accurate. So, sure - SBX may be able to move more of them (mind you, SBX is only responsible for about 45% of the McCartney sales) than she'd sell otherwise. They were probably able to offer her more dough up front for the disc(s) and maybe she'll see a better percentage on the actual sale of each copy than would be the case with, let's say, a division of Warner. But - if the disc gets publically skewered, Joni's going to get pissed. More enraged. More embittered. And getting the second disc out of her is going to be like prying open a.. well, like pulling teeth. The know-it-all-hippie mentality about supporting troops in the wrong way and SBX at Guantanamo has already started (I say know-it-all because I've developed a real Eric Cartman-esque disdain for those people; they seem to believe we can't do anything right and simultaneously function in a modern world - I have no no time for it). Joni's probably just finding out about the troops-angle, however, and I'm sure it's going to irritate her. If she were moved to do so, I'm pretty sure it's too late for her to get out of the contract. So - the project is barely out of the gate and already we've got trouble. **SIGH** - she should've released it through iTunes and JM.Com with hard copies for the press to make sure it at least got written up in some larger outlets. Sorry so grim, but do a little online research about the McCartney deal and you'll see what I mean. Even SBX employees were publically singing the blues about having to listen to the CD so much. It's going to be weird seeing 11x14 window stickers about "Shine" plastered on the doors of all the local SBX outlets. I love their coffee and I drink it every day. I'm not going to let corporate greed get in the way of my enjoyment.shortsighted? Sure, admittedly. I just don't have it in me to get all bent out of shape about something I can't control. My boycotting SBX is only going to result in one thing - me drinking shitty coffee. Cheers, Chris, coming off a long 45 minute interview with Rocco DeLuca and wondering when the NY art show opening is going to be so I can plan a trip to see my folks accordingly. _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:02:17 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Gretchen Peters Heard a wonderful cut called Jezebel from her new cd on WMNF this morning. I was struck by the bare honesty of the song so I Googled her and found this review quote for her new cd: "Writing as a vulnerable every person as opposed to a wronged crazy ex-girlfriend, Peters grabs the brass ring again with a set that can rate right up there with classics like Joni Mitchell9s 3Blue2 for feelings about disintegration and resurrection." That9s our Joni, the bar setter! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:28:32 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter Hi dear Kate! I'm missing Santa Ynez and Santa Barbera big time! So good to hear these words from both you abd rr! They are very refreshing! According to the E! News Online report, Shine is Joni's most serious work to date. I hope that when people hear the content (along with myself) they will form a different opinion of her. I don't think Joni has strayed though I may be in the minority. I think of a line from Heijira (Shadow and Light version): "There's the hope and the hopelessness I've witness all these years (goes either way)..." There is a lot of pessimisim (sp?) and hopelessness in the world today. Everyone is "selling out" accordinig to the world's opinion. My belief is that no matter what else is going on around us, we have to find our own hope. We can't depend on someone else because they will always let us down. There's no realistic way they can ever meet our expectations. We have to have our own. I'm not dissapointed with Joni because I try not to depend on her actions to sustain my faith in humanity. She has a right to follow her own heart even if I don't always agree with it. I truly respect her right to do that. Sherelle Kate wrote: rr>>b) many of the ideals of the sixties germinated in the '70's and continue today.<< high five rr! my day job & music playing take me into many wonderful worlds where people are working hard to protect the wildlands & wildlife, provide health care & education to the impoverished, etc etc... so the ideals have become reality... I work & volunteer in nonprofits so am privileged to witness much generosity & goodness taking place in the world kate _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:57:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: Starbucks rumor confirmed Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: >>>>Heck, they even like subtitles for their discs. They don't have to say, "We'd love to release your CD on Reprise but because you won't sell enough, we'll put it out on "Nonesuch". Starbucks was "with her" when she thought she was "done". They "get" Joni and apparently their customers do too. Go, Joni. Good point, Jim. I think everyone who is bitching about the deal or accusing Joni of being resposible for the world's ills should post a better solution. Anyone who says traditional record labels is too naive for words--I'm delighted that Joni's away from them. DIY is also not a realistic option. As to the possibility of bad press, bad reviews, or unhappy purchasers, that's nothing new to Joni. Michael Flaherty - --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:21:55 -0400 From: motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter Which is precisely how *you* will look when you break down and get it. Even worse, you'll get it but won't own up to getting it so you don't appear to be a "sellout". I do hope you enjoy it when you get it. Nothing is either all good or all bad, Owen. Bob - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ooh absolutely. You make a good point here Bob. There are these complains I keep reading (a few on this list and a bunch of the news sites with comments) but you know these people will most likely still buy the album regardless. So say what you want but many of them will be in line anyway. What then? Anyway, with every complaint or feeling of dissapointment I read online there are probably 3-5 POSITIVE responses about this whole situation. I think the light is winning over the shadows... Anyway, its funny how we as human beings tend to remember and unfortunately dwell on the negatives of things. Its almost in our nature really. I mean you can have 15 people tell you you just did something great (whether it be work related or something personal) and then 1 person tell you what you did stunk. Which of these comments will linger longer in your mind? Which will be the one you really remember? That's right, the negative one. I'm guessing this is the reason why Joni often mentions all the shit that has been written about her and her music in interviews. A million people have probably told Joni or made it be known that her music is wonderful. But its those ones that didn't (and did the opposite) that probably stick out in her mind. I would tell Joni (over a cup of tea of course!) not to fret over the negativity. There's been and will continue to be people prasing her. Don't let it get to you. The music stands strong....but that all this is easier said than done. As Joni once sang, "You can't please them all. There's always somebody calling you down." - -Monika ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:45:35 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter On Jul 27, 2007, at 11:21 AM, motitan@aol.com wrote: > The music stands strong....but that all this is easier said than done. > As Joni once sang, > "You can't please them all. There's always somebody calling you > down." > -Monika "now look if you're gonna come around here and say those sort of things you gotta take a few on the chin you talking about love and all that stuff you better bring your thickest skin sometimes you can't please everyone sometimes you can't please anyone at all you sew your heart onto your sleeve and wait for the ax to fall" -from "Skin" by Vigilantes of Love, popular Athens band back in the day... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:48:49 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: a Joni mention in the workplace Happy Friday! No great shakes, but this brought a smile to my workaday world: "Linda may not understand...please reassure her that this is a serious request. I would rather teach at 2 than be in room 115. I really told myself last semester this is the absolute last time. Tell her I like Joni if need be. " Ha! Joni's the word! Love, Patti P., wearing an orange armband today for http://www.worldcantwait.org/ NPIMH: Beatles singing: Say the word and you'll be free Say the word and be like me Say the word I'm thinking of Have you heard the word is love? It's so fine, It's sunshine It's the word, love In the beginning I misunderstood But now I've got it, the word is good P.S. Yet ANOTHER Joni workplace mention/conversation after I wrote all the above. One of our Spanish grad students came in carrying a Starbucks bag. Put a quarter in the Wurlitzer and I begin to whirr....."Do you know Joni Mitchell?" Jorge said: "Of course!" I said: "Do you really?" And he said that he discovered her in "Love, Actually" and went on to learn more about her. I told him I'd help him anytime.... ; ) _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:52:36 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter Hi Owen, What exactly is the rap that Starbuck's is trying to rip off Ethiopian farmers? As far as trampling on Chinese culture, by putting up a Starbuck's smack-dab in the Forbidden City, I imagine they needed permission from the Chinese government. Until China, along with Asian countries who brutalize their animals, I have no pity if they put up 1000 pink hotels, 10,000 boutiques and 100,000 swinging hot spots like Starbucks. Maybe China could learn a few lessons from Joni! Peace, jean Owen Duff wrote: Hi AJ, I understand what you're saying, however my point really is not that Joni has made this decision (which could be for any number of reasons, including the exact deal she was offered, the relationship with the individuals at Hear, the chance of an audience) but that she has repeatedly attacked this type of corporation in the past, both in her songs and in interviews. It makes her look like a massive hypocrite! Starbucks have been rapped recently for trying to rip off Ethiopian farmers, for "trampling on Chinese culture" by opening a store in Beijing's Forbidden City and just generally for being one of the most glaring examples of cultural imperialism. Is this what Joni stands for and agrees with? I think this may be the reason it will be looked down on far more outside the U.S - Starbucks' reputation is not great here in the UK, mainly because of their aggressive business tactics in breaking independent coffee places. Yes, plenty of people go there, but I'd wager that the kind of people who listen to Joni are politically and socially aware enough to have picked up quite a negative view of the company. I really don't think this will help her public image one bit, not here anyway, and not in a lot of places. Mccartney is a joke to a lot of my peers. Joni already has a very loyal audience, she could have sold through any number of channels, she could have given away the songs on jonimitchell.com and asked for donations (which from loyal fans she would have received in spades I'm sure), which would have got her a lot of publicity and 100% of the money. She could have got a distribution/promotion deal with a less controversial company. On a personal level, years ago when Starbucks' started opening EVERYWHERE, I got annoyed by them for a number of reasons, so I took a vow never to buy anything from them in my life. I never have, and now look what's happened! And since I believe in sticking by my principles, I suppose I should forego buying 'Shine'... O Lycos email has 300 Megabytes of free storage... Get it now at mail.lycos.co.uk Dreaming Dreamland, Jeannie jjj . - --------------------------------- Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:03:29 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: Loose Wires Were Lashin' Out At Me Well Sherelle, I think your written thoughts say it all, for me! jeannie wrote: Hi Christopher, My question is this: with the volatile nature of the Music industry right now, what else is she supposed to do? I'm not saying you are suggesting that she take a different course. You are just not very hopeful of the outcome of this arrangement. To me, with the way things are in the industry, it's a kind of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" thing. CD sales have plummeted with major labels so the CD itself is in ICU on life support at the moment. Even though I love digital music, I do not wish to see the CD go the way of the dinosaur. Major retail stores like Tower records have already done that. There's something about holding a work of art in your hands and "seeing" as well as "hearing" it in my opinion. I wasn't aware that Paul McCartney received a bashing for going with "Hear Music" but I'm not sure what other recourse or alternative either of them had given the state of things. To me, the Starbucks option is one way of preserving the sale of CD's existence. I am hoping that Joni will not become embittered over this but I understand your concern. This is why I feel it so true to always make music for yourself first and hold true to that. It's a great buffer against the slings and arrows that may come your way. There is no way Joni's ever going to find a middle ground and please everyone. Everyone has become so poloarized especially in regards to the war. She's made her decision so I hope that she will hold her head up high and be true to herself once more. It's only a hope but I'm going to hang on to it nonetheless. Sherelle Christopher wrote: Gang, I don't have high hopes for this new arrangement. Go ahead - throw fruit, whatever. I am certainly excited for the new record regardless of what it ends up sounding like (I'm sure I'll find something to like about it), and I'm excited that Joni's deal is already getting such a big media push. But here's the thing.. As an industry insider, I can't even begin to tell you all about the beating Paul McCartney took for his new CD - and part of it is b/c it got pushed to the masses. The other part is who was doing the pushing. I get several music press newsletters and Joni's already getting beaten up. So - what I see happening now is: Joni puts out Shine and rather than it making the little splash in more musically discerning circles, it's gets forced on all these people who don't have the interest or the patience, resulting in more negative press. My understanding is that the last few JM discs have sold under 50,000 copies a pop - hard to believe, but I'm pretty sure that's accurate. So, sure - SBX may be able to move more of them (mind you, SBX is only responsible for about 45% of the McCartney sales) than she'd sell otherwise. They were probably able to offer her more dough up front for the disc(s) and maybe she'll see a better percentage on the actual sale of each copy than would be the case with, let's say, a division of Warner. But - if the disc gets publically skewered, Joni's going to get pissed. More enraged. More embittered. And getting the second disc out of her is going to be like prying open a.. well, like pulling teeth. The know-it-all-hippie mentality about supporting troops in the wrong way and SBX at Guantanamo has already started (I say know-it-all because I've developed a real Eric Cartman-esque disdain for those people; they seem to believe we can't do anything right and simultaneously function in a modern world - I have no no time for it). Joni's probably just finding out about the troops-angle, however, and I'm sure it's going to irritate her. If she were moved to do so, I'm pretty sure it's too late for her to get out of the contract. So - the project is barely out of the gate and already we've got trouble. **SIGH** - she should've released it through iTunes and JM.Com with hard copies for the press to make sure it at least got written up in some larger outlets. Sorry so grim, but do a little online research about the McCartney deal and you'll see what I mean. Even SBX employees were publically singing the blues about having to listen to the CD so much. It's going to be weird seeing 11x14 window stickers about "Shine" plastered on the doors of all the local SBX outlets. I love their coffee and I drink it every day. I'm not going to let corporate greed get in the way of my enjoyment.shortsighted? Sure, admittedly. I just don't have it in me to get all bent out of shape about something I can't control. My boycotting SBX is only going to result in one thing - me drinking shitty coffee. Cheers, Chris, coming off a long 45 minute interview with Rocco DeLuca and wondering when the NY art show opening is going to be so I can plan a trip to see my folks accordingly. _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 Dreaming Dreamland, Jeannie jjj . - --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:09:50 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter On Jul 27, 2007, at 11:52 AM, jeannie wrote: > Hi Owen, > > What exactly is the rap that Starbuck's is trying to rip off > Ethiopian farmers? > As far as trampling on Chinese culture, by putting up a > Starbuck's smack-dab in the Forbidden City, I imagine they needed > permission from the Chinese government. Starbucks opened up a store in the Forbidden City in 2000. It just recently closed this year due to decision by the museum to open up their own stores. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:07:14 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,448191,00.html > What exactly is the rap that Starbuck's is trying to rip off Ethiopian > farmers? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:17:52 EDT From: Rusty10113@aol.com Subject: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter look i have no idea what Starbucks does to grow its business, all I know is that its a welcome place in a blizzard of low rent low class fast food chains, where u can relax, log on, listen to music and be civilized for a bit ... i love the mom and pop coffee places, but if theyre gone, Im sure not going to sit at mcdonalds when i wanna read or hang out with a friend ... I need a place to write, relax and be comfortable and yeah, sip java, so what should I do, sit at home out of priciple? i think joni knows the reality of the world now, and if she can be part of a business that offers modern versions of the oldcoffee house culture, i see nothing but good from it ... i hate to say but my main concern is that the music is good - i love joni to death but what ive heard seems even less melodic than Taming the Tiger.. i hope to god im wrong, nothing would please me more than a gorgeous new joni CD, believe me... ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:22:44 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter I hope it's a free museum. xo, jean Victor Johnson wrote: CC: Owen Duff , joni@smoe.org From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:09:50 -0400 To: jeannie On Jul 27, 2007, at 11:52 AM, jeannie wrote: > Hi Owen, > > What exactly is the rap that Starbuck's is trying to rip off > Ethiopian farmers? > As far as trampling on Chinese culture, by putting up a > Starbuck's smack-dab in the Forbidden City, I imagine they needed > permission from the Chinese government. Until they stop brutalizing >their people, their animals and the eco-system, I don't care of they put >up a gazzilion parking lots, pink hotels and coffee-dens Starbucks opened up a store in the Forbidden City in 2000. It just recently closed this year due to decision by the museum to open up their own stores. jjj . - --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. - --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:43:40 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: NJC Ethiopian farmers : 212.78.202.7 O does not like recipient jjj. O, What exactly is the rap that Starbuck's is trying to rip off Ethiopian farmers? Peace, jean Owen Duff wrote: Hi AJ, I understand what you're saying, however my point really is not that Joni has made this decision (which could be for any number of reasons, including the exact deal she was offered, the relationship with the individuals at Hear, the chance of an audience) but that she has repeatedly attacked this type of corporation in the past, both in her songs and in interviews. It makes her look like a massive hypocrite! Starbucks have been rapped recently for trying to rip off Ethiopian farmers, for "trampling on Chinese culture" by opening a store in Beijing's Forbidden City and just generally for being one of the most glaring examples of cultural imperialism. Is this what Joni stands for and agrees with? I think this may be the reason it will be looked down on far more outside the U.S - Starbucks' reputation is not great here in the UK, mainly because of their aggressive business tactics in breaking independent coffee places. Yes, plenty of people go there, but I'd wager that the kind of people who listen to Joni are politically and socially aware enough to have picked up quite a negative view of the company. I really don't think this will help her public image one bit, not here anyway, and not in a lot of places. Mccartney is a joke to a lot of my peers. Joni already has a very loyal audience, she could have sold through any number of channels, she could have given away the songs on jonimitchell.com and asked for donations (which from loyal fans she would have received in spades I'm sure), which would have got her a lot of publicity and 100% of the money. She could have got a distribution/promotion deal with a less controversial company. On a personal level, years ago when Starbucks' started opening EVERYWHERE, I got annoyed by them for a number of reasons, so I took a vow never to buy anything from them in my life. I never have, and now look what's happened! And since I believe in sticking by my principles, I suppose I should forego buying 'Shine'... O Lycos email has 300 Megabytes of free storage... Get it now at mail.lycos.co.uk It makes her look like a massive hypocrite! Starbucks have been rapped recently for trying to rip off Ethiopian farmers, for "trampling on Chinese culture" by opening a store in Beijing's Forbidden City and just generally for being one of the most glaring examples of cultural imperialism. Is this what Joni stands for and agrees with? On a personal level, years ago when Starbucks' started opening EVERYWHERE, I got annoyed by them for a number of reasons, so I took a vow never to buy anything from them in my life. I never have, and now look what's happened! And since I believe in sticking by my principles, I suppose I should forego buying 'Shine'... O Please tell me of the Ethiopian farmer's plight concerning Starbuck's exploitations of their poor, humble farming plots. If that were the case, I'm sure Joni would shake her fist like lightening when she sees a great injustice. I have faith in Joni and my unfettering hope is like her unflinching hope. Joni and her true grit fans never give up in this wide world of noble causes. jeannie - --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:02:03 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: Ehtiopian Farmers/Spiegel article What's y'all's take on this? I see this as normal business dealings. I personally do not see exploitation--I see corporate greed in which solutions may still be sought. Starbucks should maybe consider buying coffee beans from the poor and now prospering Mexican Indian women and nun cooperativos deep from the mountainous regions in Mexico. Now, these cooperatives started by some really cool nuns from San Antonio, some of whom I have personally met, are true blue souls like Joni and us, are living and breathingt noble women whose causes are to be applauded. They say those coffee beans are superb! Jean Jerry Notaro wrote: http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,448191,00.html > What exactly is the rap that Starbuck's is trying to rip off Ethiopian > farmers? - --------------------------------- Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:29:00 +0000 From: "Owen Duff" Subject: Re: Re: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter I'm sure you don't mean to cause offence, Bob, but I would ask that you consider whether it is fair to assert that I would "sell-out" and then lie about it, given that you have never actually met me. As far as I know Starbucks cleared up the Ethiopia dispute after intervention from Oxfam, and the Forbidden City store closed down due to protests and a 500,000 name petition. I agree that there are worse companies, but my issue is not SB per se, it's that the dichotomy between Joni's words and her actions is disappointing to me. I've no doubt she was doing it for reasons that made a great deal of sense to her, but it would have been nice, given her scathing comments on big business in the past, if she could have made a statement with "Shine" by choosing a different route to people's ears... To me it sends the message that even if you vehemently disagree with something, when it comes down to it, you're powerless to change it so you may as well just fall in line and take what you can get. I'm happy to be in the minority on this... O - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com > To: "Owen Duff" > Subject: Re: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:13:53 -0400 Which is precisely how *you* will look when you break down and get it. Even worse, you'll get it but won't own up to getting it so you don't appear to be a "sellout". I do hope you enjoy it when you get it. Nothing is either all good or all bad, Owen. Bob NP: Joni, "Two Grey Rooms" - ------------------------------------------------------ - ------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:55:14 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Starbuck's Reckless Daughter You are correct in saying that I did not mean to offend you. I think (at least I hope) that most of us do the best we can regarding consumer decisions based on a variety of things. You don't have to look very hard into ANY corporation to find out that they're doing some things that you don't like. So, we all pick our battles, and yes, sometimes we have to compromise. I don't shop at Wal-Mart, but if I was traveling and a member of my family needed some medicine or something that I had to go into the Wal-Mart to get, damn straight I would run, not walk into the Wal-Mart and make the purchase. It's a matter of priorities. So you want to boycott Starbucks - that's totally cool, and it has the same impact that my vendetta against the Wal-Mart has had. I just think that not getting a CD from one of your favorite artists because the label she records on is also owned by a corporation whose operating principles you disagree with is only punishing yourself. After all, you can dig down into the weeds with EVERY item you consume and trace it back to unsavory behavior by the company or companies who manufacture, market and transport it - and then what are you to do? Let's just all venture out in the woods and assume the fetal position. All that being said, I respect your personal decisions and integrity. I just don't think you have any moral high ground to accuse Joni Mitchell of being a "massive hypocrite" as she has lived her life with the same amount of integrity in my opinion. Bob NP: Drive-By Truckers, "Do It Yourself" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #287 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------