From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #177 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, May 1 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 177 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Tracking Reviews of the New JM Tribute CD [Melissa Gibbs ] Re: SV: SV: Tribute review njc [Catherine McKay ] SV: SV: SV: Tribute review njc ["Marion Leffler" ] Re: Miles Beyond [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Miles Beyond/hey Billy! [Em ] Re: Miles Beyond [Michael Flaherty ] Re: Miles Beyond [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: Joni's guitar tunings and question [Dave Blackburn ] Re: Miles Beyond [Motitan@aol.com] Re: Joni's guitar tunings and question [Motitan@aol.com] Re: favorite Joni sideman [Motitan@aol.com] Re: favorite Joni sideman [Michael Flaherty ] Re: favorite Joni sideman [Dflahm@aol.com] Joni now and then ["Marion Leffler" ] Re: Miles Beyond [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: favorite Joni sideman [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Miles Beyond [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: Miles Beyond/hey Billy! [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: Miles Beyond ["Jenny Goodspeed" ] Re: Miles Beyond NJC [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Miles Beyond [Catherine McKay ] Re: Miles Beyond [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: favorite Joni sideman [Scott Price ] "don't interrupt the sorrow"-instrumental????-Darned wrong!!! ["anon anon] Re: Miles Beyond [Catherine McKay ] Re: "don't interrupt the sorrow"-instrumental????-Darned wrong!!! [Bob.Mu] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 19:25:07 +1000 From: Melissa Gibbs Subject: Re: Tracking Reviews of the New JM Tribute CD Mark in Autumnal Sydney wrote: Hi folks. Scouring the Australian press for a review of the tribute album, I found a these three reviews. The first is from the Sydney Morning Herald (a respected broadsheet newspaper). It was accompanied by a fabulous photograph of a barefoot Joni in possibly her garden. Hey Mark - it's always good to hear from a fellow Sydney-sider on the list. I read this article in the SMH and had been meaning to post the URL, but time slipped away from me. Melissa in Sydey NP - "Brain Drain" Marianne Faithfull ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 07:11:30 -0400 From: robmsteen@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #132 Can I say, gently, that I disagree with Billy in every possible respect vis-a-vis the lyrical content of THOSL and Hejira. Could he, perchance, be being a teensy bit provocative, or perhaps even extracting the Michael? To these admittedly withering and decaying ears, Harry's House and Shades of Scarlet Conquering are not only the most moving and challenging songs our gal ever recorded, but ANYONE has ever written about the trials of womanhood. Love Rob - -----Original Message----- From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Sent: Tue, 1 May 2007 03:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #132 onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, May 1 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 132 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: - -------- Re: Miles Beyond [Motitan@aol.com] Re: Joni & Jaco [Motitan@aol.com] Re: Miles Beyond ["AJ" ] Re: Joni & Jaco [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: Miles Beyond [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: Miles Beyond [Wtking59@cs.com] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:15:14 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Miles Beyond In fact, parts of THOSL sound much more dated to me than ANYTHING on C&S or MOA (particularly the comparatively lightweight sounding fluff of "Shades of Scarlett Conquering," the clichid and superficial "Harry's House," the downright hokey opener "In France They Kiss On Main Street... - - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----- - - --------------------------------------------------------------- Well what about them in particular makes you think they sound dated? And why do you find Harry's House superficial? We're all entitled to our own opinion but it's good to ask. Discussion is healthy. Just curious as always. - - -Monika ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:21:42 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni & Jaco HEY, Monika Well, apart from her marriage to Klein--yet another bass player--you ARE aware that Jaco died relatively young, aren't you? Killed in a bar fight of some sort, if I'm not mistaken. I've forgotten the exact year, but it's been a while. - - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- Hmm, yes I read that he died young in passing somewhere but was not aware of the year. - - -Monika ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:27:00 -0500 From: "AJ" Subject: Re: Miles Beyond - - ----- Original Message ----- From: > In fact, parts of THOSL sound much more dated to me than ANYTHING on C&S > or > MOA (particularly the comparatively lightweight sounding fluff of "Shades > of > Scarlett Conquering," the clichid and superficial "Harry's House," the > downright hokey opener "In France They Kiss On Main Street... > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----- > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Well what about them in particular makes you think they sound dated? > And why do you find Harry's House superficial? We're all entitled to our > own > opinion but it's good to ask. Discussion is healthy. Just curious as > always. > -Monika I myself find "Harry's House" one the most profound JM songs of all. The timbre of her voice when she sings/speaks "Nothing's any good" made my hair stand on end the day the album came out, and still does, these many years later, when I listen to it on my IPod. I find it an incredibly dense (in a good way) musical statement about not simply American culture in the 1970s, but still as timely in 2007 as it was when it came out. And it is a strangely bifurcated song, which makes it endlessly fascinating to me to this day. - - --AJ - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 00:26:14 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Joni & Jaco Bruce -- THANKS for providing more details on Jaco's death. Such an unfortunate loss for many (including Joni, I'm sure). And I agree with your logic 100% on the possibilities of why the couple eventually parted ways, as well as your probable theories about what was responsible for Joni's lighter, more positive mood while creating WTRF. XXXOOO, Billy ================================= Bruce (LBVaughn@comcast.net) wrote: >>> Billy, >>> You are correct. Jaco died from injuries (declared brain dead after lapsing into a coma) sustained in a heated disagreement with a bouncer in an establishment that he'd been refused entrance to. His date of death, I believe was September of 1987 which would have made him about 35 or so. <<< >>> I suspect he and Joni parted ways due to Jaco's health (manic depression) and substance problems which from what I've read made him quite unpredictable and somewhat "black flagged" in the music world. I wouldn't know, but I suspect Joni is the type that when she's recording would be blisteringly angry when she had a head full of ideas and her bass player ended up MIA. <<< >>> WTRF was probably considered more of a happy album for any number of reasons. I've heard that it was supposed to be more of a rock styled album (not sure I'd call it that) but it was something different and fresh from what she had been doing. Klein was probably the largest influence on her mood at the time but WTRF was also her first release for a new record label and she might have had high hopes that they would treat her better than recent years with Asylum and it reunited her with David Geffen who was behind her more commercial successes, FTR, MOA, and CAS. Might have been a very optimistic Joni at that time. <<< Bruce in Tucson <<< - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 01:48:53 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Miles Beyond Monika wrote: >>> Well, what about them in particular makes you think they sound dated? And why do you find Harry's House superficial? We're all entitled to our own opinion but it's good to ask. Discussion is healthy. Just curious as always. <<< Almost everything, Monika. But to be more specific, I suddenly found most of the lyrics on THOSL to be soooooooo cliched compared to the classic, deeply confessional mid-period of BLUE, FTR and CAS. Disappointingly detached and emotionally bankrupt. I think "Shades of Scarlett Conquering" is weak both musically and lyrically, and "Harry's House" isn't much better. To me, they're largely nothing more than pretty sounding, superficial gloss and glitter, with very little discernible substance (as the majority of critics pointed out in 1975). And then 'Hejira' (in '76), while a bit more profound in the lyric department (except when compared to her most seminal period), was even LESS musically challenging than its predecessor--mostly droning from one chilly dirge to another. In some ways she rebounded a bit with DJRD in '77, but it was only a matter of time before she'd attempt a return to her earlier, most acclaimed sound (on WTRF)--with only mixed results. However, this is just the most popular general opinion (and the opinion I happen to share), and certainly some people feel differently. I can appreciate that. But at the same time, I occasionally feel the need to express my own point of view (like everyone else here)--just to balance things out, so-to-speak, and to make sure Joni's earlier brilliance is never overlooked or forgotten ;-) XXXOOO, Billy NP: 'We're Children of Coincidence and Harpo Marx' (1976) by Dory Previn - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 02:37:40 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Miles Beyond AJ (ajfashion@att.net) wrote: >>> I myself find "Harry's House" one the most profound JM songs of all. The timbre of her voice when she sings/speaks "Nothing's any good" made my hair stand on end the day the album came out, and still does... <<< Oh, yeah--and what about that thrilling part just afterwards (returning to the original melody), when she sings: "shining hair and shining skin, shining as she reeled him in..." with that all-too-brief but fabulous guitar flourish right in the middle!? Although I find it superficial, I ADORE that little moment of bliss! AJ added: >>> I find it an incredibly dense (in a good way) musical statement about not simply American culture in the 1970s, but still as timely in 2007 as it was when it came out. And it is a strangely bifurcated song, which makes it endlessly fascinating to me to this day. <<< AJ--you're not the only one who feels that way. But for me, that's part of the problem with THOSL: I didn't want a "dense, musical statement" about modern American culture coming from Joni (?). Instead, I wanted more of the brilliantly emotional, romantic poetry of the individual "heart and mind" that an entire generation had come to know and love. The style she'd finally perfected on CAS. XXXOOO, Billy NP: 'We the People' (1973) by Ellen McIlwaine - ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #132 ********************************* - ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe - ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm) ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 07:28:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Miles Beyond - --- Wtking59@cs.com wrote: > And then 'Hejira' (in '76), ... mostly droning > from one chilly dirge to > another. Billy, are you my mother? Catherine Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 07:25:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: SV: SV: Tribute review njc Does anyone have any idea what SV in the subject line is? Is it by any chance Swedish for "re" (which is Latin for "about", which goes to show you how messed up English really is!) Catherine Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 13:34:36 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: SV: Tribute review njc Yes, Catherine, SV means RE in Swedish, I have the Swedish version of Outlook and there is nothing I can do about it, sorry. Marion in Sweden - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: Catherine McKay [mailto:anima_rising@yahoo.ca] Skickat: den 1 maj 2007 13:26 Till: Marion Leffler; 'JMDL' Dmne: Re: SV: SV: Tribute review njc Does anyone have any idea what SV in the subject line is? Is it by any chance Swedish for "re" (which is Latin for "about", which goes to show you how messed up English really is!) Catherine Toronto - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 13:36:17 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: SV: Tribute review njc And to highlight this further, SV is short for "svar", the Swedish word for "reply". Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: Catherine McKay [mailto:anima_rising@yahoo.ca] Skickat: den 1 maj 2007 13:26 Till: Marion Leffler; 'JMDL' Dmne: Re: SV: SV: Tribute review njc Does anyone have any idea what SV in the subject line is? Is it by any chance Swedish for "re" (which is Latin for "about", which goes to show you how messed up English really is!) Catherine Toronto - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 07:42:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Tribute review njc - --- Marion Leffler wrote: > Yes, Catherine, SV means RE in Swedish, I have the > Swedish version of > Outlook and there is nothing I can do about it, > sorry. > Marion in Sweden > Thanks - I learned something today! Catherine Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 07:01:47 -0500 From: "AJ" Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #132 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "AJ" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 7:01 AM Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #132 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > >>Harry's House >> and Shades of Scarlet Conquering are not only the most moving and >> challenging songs our gal ever recorded, but ANYONE has ever written >> about the trials of womanhood. > > I must say I 'got' "Harry's House" the first time I heard it, > but it took me a while longer to get ""Scarlet Conquering." > But when I did it was like a bomb going off in my head > (in a good way). THOSL is one album I have never > replaced on CD; I think I have to download more of it > today. > > Anyone remember that scene in the first "Men in Black" > when aliens bring in a new format for listening to music? > And Tommy Lee Jones says, "Damn it, I'll have to buy > a new copy of the White Album!" > > I feel that way--I replaced vinyl with cassettes and still > haven't caught up with CDs. So my JM and Sondheim > CD collections, while not insignificant, are incomplete. > > --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 08:07:13 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Miles Beyond Well, that explains a lot - like most of Joni's fans & critics at the time, you wanted her to stay the same, which she never had any desire to do. I admit it can be difficult following an artist who is constantly growing & evolving. However, it is the main thing that separated Joni from her peers and makes her so compelling to me. Bob NP: Ani, "Knuckle Down" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 06:08:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Miles Beyond/hey Billy! I completely "get it" what you've been saying. I feel that way too. But trying to get Joni to give us what she no longer wants to give us, or is no longer capable of giving us, is like trying to stop a force of nature, I think. There are no levees to contain her desire to spread out. And every once in a while a golden nugget like the song "TI" pops out, just to tease and let us know its still there - we just can't have it. "No, Tony, you may NOT have a pony". We have to eat more "dense social" whatever it was. Good thing there are other songer/songwriters still doing the other thing, so we don't starve. Em ps but I do like Hejira...drone or no drone. I mean its a cocaine road trip and those tend to "drone"...like the drone of the engines of a Lockheed Electra ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 06:43:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: Miles Beyond Wtking59@cs.com wrote :>>>>AJ--you're not the only one who feels that way. But for me, that's part of the problem with THOSL: I didn't want a "dense, musical statement" about modern American culture coming from Joni (?). Instead, I wanted more of the brilliantly emotional, romantic poetry of the individual "heart and mind" that an entire generation had come to know and love. The style she'd finally perfected on CAS. I think you've nailed it, Billy. I mean the difference, as I feel exactly the opposite of you concerning which is "better" (but I do love Blue, FtR, and C&S). To me, writing that is more objective and more open to interpretation is preferable; I also prefer Modernist poets to the Romantics. That combined with the level of the musicians she was playing with, makes the late 70s a logical choice for my favorite era. (Not that I came to that conclusion logically--we like what we like, then we look for why.) Michael Flaherty - --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:40:16 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Miles Beyond THANK YOU, Michael--I completely understand. And it might also help to know that I fell HARD for Joni (and CAS) at the tender age of 14 (nearly 15), and first heard THOSL at only 16. And while I was a pretty bright teenager at the time, perhaps I wasn't yet sophisticated enough to properly accept and digest THOSL the same way I'd (rather recently) voraciously absorbed her earlier, confessional classics. Or maybe my personal preference is simply based on the fact that (as you stated): "we like what we like, and THEN we look for why." XXXOOO, Billy ======================================= Michael (mflaher3@yahoo.com) replied: >>> I think you've nailed it, Billy. I mean the difference, as I feel exactly the opposite of you concerning which is "better" (but I do love Blue, FtR, and C&S). To me, writing that is more objective and more open to interpretation is preferable; I also prefer Modernist poets to the Romantics. <<< >>> That combined with the level of the musicians she was playing with, makes the late 70s a logical choice for my favorite era. (Not that I came to that conclusion logically--we like what we like, then we look for why.) <<< Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 07:33:55 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Joni's guitar tunings and question My 2c on this one Monika. I've found that many Joni tunes can be played in standard tuning if you don't mind a little hand reach. In other words the chords can be played note for note but without the problems caused by alt tunings (unbalanced neck tension, difficult intonation). So wherever possible I do that so I can use fewer guitars and have less downtime between tunes. Of course the really dropped tunings, like for Hejira or Black Crow, are required to get that sound. I always opt for standard tuning unless there's no other way to get the sonority, but that's because I have not spent enough time in DADGAD or whatever to feel loose with it. But I've spent 40 years in standard so the brain is fairly ossified too. Whether it was the polio or a visualization thing I don't know, but Joni approached the guitar bizarrely in that she would play the same chord shapes in nearly every song and change the tuners to get the chords she liked. Many of them are just major or minor add9 chords though and those are easy to play in standard. Dave On Apr 30, 2007, at 6:44 PM, onlyJMDL Digest wrote: > Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:48:42 EDT > From: Motitan@aol.com > Subject: Joni's guitar tunings and question > > Lately I've been looking through different Joni songs and have > been working > on playing them (not singing but playing...as the singing will be > a little > more tough for me so I must choose very carefully what song/s to > perform live > in my sets and so forth). It's just crazy how many tunings she > has used! > I've been going through just about 4 or 5 different tuninggs so > far (not > counting dropped D or double dropped/D modal which I am already > comfortable with > from previous experience with those tunings) playing songs or > parts of songs > (parts I like and what not) to get more familiar with the sounds/ > melodies of > these tunings. I want to be comfortable with a load of other > tunings....maybe > to the point of standard tuning, though that'll take a while but > I've got > time. Time is unlimited as far as I see it and music has no end. > Now my question to the fellow musicians on this list, do you guys > regularly use other tunings or still play more in standard? Are > you as comfortable > in different ones as you are in standard? Do you have a favorite > tuning? > Ok, that was more than one question. Sue me, will you? > - -Monika ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 08:06:14 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: favorite Joni sideman Apologies to Monika who usually starts these threads, but I was wondering who your favorite Joni sideman was over the years and why. I'm sure Jaco and Wayne will feature high on the list but my vote goes to Larry Carlton, ace of aces in the mid-seventies, who helped give C&S, HOSL, Hejira and a little on DJRD their magical texture with his gorgeous volume swells and nonpareil tone. He did the same for Steely Dan during the same period. (His 80's-00's smooth jazz career however can only be explained by his abduction by aliens.) Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:22:25 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Miles Beyond But to be more specific, I suddenly found most of the lyrics on THOSL to be soooooooo cliched compared to the classic, deeply confessional mid-period of BLUE, FTR and CAS. Disappointingly detached and emotionally bankrupt. I think "Shades of Scarlett Conquering" is weak both musically and lyrically, and "Harry's House" isn't much better. To me, they're largely nothing more than pretty sounding, superficial gloss and glitter, with very little discernible substance (as the majority of critics pointed out in 1975). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - --------------------------------------- Hmm, ok then. As much as it pains me to read anything negative on THOSL (I think it's my favorite Joni album....top 2 if not the favorite), I guess I can understand your reaction as well as the reactions that I always read about (in articles and reviews and such) when Joni released the album. It was a very different album as you point out lyrically and musically yet sometimes I wonder why was anyone surprised? I'll explain in a minute here. I like the fact that on this album Joni branches out from her confessional, inward writing style and looks out into the world. Sure, she realizes that not everything is all sunshine and roses (a fact I hope people know...that's why you have to look for the good things) but this gives her more to analyze? I'm not sure if that's the word I was looking for but take it or leave it. That's really something I truly admire about the album as much as I love Joni's previous writing. It just illustrates yet another facet to her writing previously unknown or more or less previously only glimpsed into. You know what I mean? I mean for all the people who think Joni only writes about herself or is too engrossed in her own world, I'd give them THOSL to listen to. You don't have to agree with what it has to say but she is looking outward there. And of course this is all so subjective as music or anything really is when you think about it. To me, I don't find anything emotionally bankrupt about the album. I can hear the different emotions (quite a few of them I think) in Joni's voice. I really do love her singing on this album. Oh and before I forget, I did say I would explain something earlier in this post. I just find it kind of funny that some people were so shocked or surprised to find this album coming next after Blue, C&S, LOTC, etc etc. Because to me (once again just a subjective perspective) Blue is as different from Court & Spark as For The Roses is as different from Ladies Of The Canyon. Every album, (though we hear Joni's "style" in her playing and tone and what not) is such a vast change from the previous. Would you have thought that the girl who wrote Song To A Seagull would be the same one to write Hejira? Yes and no. Yes because you could see just from her first few albums there was always progression and change. You can't say that C&S is just another Clouds or anything like that. Yes, also because C&S and MOA (and a couple tunes on For The Roses) see Joni going into a more "jazzier" style. No, because nobody could have predicted what Joni's next album would be like. Nobody can say, "oh Hejira just sounds like something Joni would have OF COURSE written." In a way she is very unpredictable. She does what she does without wondering how to make her next "smash" hit or do something that's expected of her. If Joni had made one truly remarkable album and just copied its formula for the next album and the next and the next (like so many bands do today, ugh) and made the same album over and over again, I doubt I myself would like her so much. Sure I may like that album but she wouldn't be the artist she is. Art requires experimentation I think. But it's so funny (not funny haha but...) how everyone is so different and sees something in a different way than others. It's all so subjective but I figure I'd put my opinion in as I'm a big fan of THOSL. I mean you say to-ma-to and I say ta-ma-to. People are fascinating when you think about it! And nothing any one person says changes the mind of another....strange! And I just say thank you to those who are still with me reading this way too long (and not too interesting) post. You have much endurance, kudos. - -Monika P.S. And the great thing about Joni's music is that there is something for everyone I think. It's so diverse! I love that! ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:22:31 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's guitar tunings and question In other words the chords can be played note for note but without the problems caused by alt tunings (unbalanced neck tension, difficult intonation). - ------------------------------------------------------------- No wonder Joni said her tunings were a pain in the ass! :) Plus there are some tunings that I just can't do. I feel my guitar strings bending, bending, stretching to their limit....and I don't want to break them! And I'm not about to change what strings I use or keep them looser or anything like that just to play a song or two. I have my principles! - -Monika ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:35:17 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: favorite Joni sideman Apologies to Monika who usually starts these threads, but I was wondering who your favorite Joni sideman was over the years and why - ---------------------------------------- Hey man, it's all good. No apologies necessary. Hmm, so far I do like Jaco's bass work so far as his playing is so intricate and unique. I'm always impressed by someone's musicality. He doesn't have to "dub, dub, dub" his whole way through a song. He lets there be gaps when it's appropriate and comes back in with something stunning. But I need to hear more of him. I also liked Stephen Stills' bass/guitar playing on the couple tracks of the couple of albums he did play on of Joni's. He always put a nice "rock-n-roll" spin on the tracks while remaining melodic in his bass work. He's a very rhythmic and very melodic player when he picks up the bass. His bass work on the first CSN album is incredible (a little off topic I know but it makes my point anyhow). And his guitar work is impressive. I've mentioned before how I like how he and Joni sounded on the little clip from the "Woman of Heart and Mind" DVD of them (and Crosby and Nash in the background clapping along) playing "Get Together" from the Big Sur Festival. Sure it's only about 30 seconds or so....but its 30 seconds of pure delight! Listen to those guitars man! And I do like Larry Carlton's guitar work.....but I'm more interested in hearing what EVERYONE ELSE thinks. - -Monika ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 08:51:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: favorite Joni sideman Dave Blackburn wrote: >>>>Apologies to Monika who usually starts these threads, but I was wondering who your favorite Joni sideman was over the years and why. I'm sure Jaco and Wayne will feature high on the list but my vote goes to Larry Carlton, ace of aces in the mid-seventies, who helped give C&S, HOSL, Hejira and a little on DJRD their magical texture Actually, Monica recently did this one, but that's OK. ;) I picked Jaco, and Shorter would be up there, but I LOVE Carlton's playing on Hejira. In fact, based on that I bought a solo album of his--a bit too pop for my personal tastes, but great playing. I'll also throw in Brian Blades whose drumming in '98 really fueled that band. I'm delighted that he'll be on the new album. Michael Flaherty - --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 12:05:21 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: favorite Joni sideman The reason Jaco is my "favorite" is that, to me he seems to have inspired JM more than anyone else. By that I mean he not only got her excited and energized but (probably without words) gave her guidance to a potential in her music she may not have been aware of before they hooked up. DAVID LAHM ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 18:33:37 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: Joni now and then Hi everybody, I've been reading the discussion on THOSL and the pros and cons for Joni then and before and now, and I feel I just have to contribute. To my mind, Blue was a profound change from the previous albums, STAS, Clouds and LOTC. The folk songs were gone altogether, and as we all know, Blue was extremely personal. FTR I feel was a follower-up to Blue, maybe not quite as strong but surely just as emotional and confessional. With THOSL Joni turned outward, as has been pointed out in other posts. To me, however, descriptions of that that album as being "emotionally bankrupt", "superficial" and "glossy" are missing the point completely. I find it just as emotional and deep as any before, and this applies to Joni's way of singing as well as the lyrics. I feel that on THOSL she is attempting to empathize, to consciously try and express not her own but other people's feelings, emotions she has observed in other people around her. Harry's house is a good example, even if I think she is a little biased in Harry's favour :-). COS is like that as well but at the same time a return to self-observation. I think this goes for all the following albums as well, even DED, although to me, DED is the album that differs most from Joni's other work. (She sounds so angry, and the beat actually hurts my ears.). So what I want to say is that to my mind Joni has continued to struggle with emotions but does it in different ways - ways that you can either like or not like but hardly call "emotionally bankrupt". Summing up, I really do not think that Joni has changed as profoundly as people tend to point out. The essence seems to be the same to me, whereas her forms of expression have changed, she has tried to deal with life in different ways. Joni's songs have made me think a lot and helped me understand things. If this hadn't been the case, I would have stopped listening to her. We can't complain about the way she does things, it's her mind, her heart and her life. We can admire her, we can be grateful for the insights she has given us, or, if we feel she has nothing more to offer us, we can ignore her and just let it go by. This is the way I see it. Thanks for letting me have my say. Have a nice evening, Marion in Sweden ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 12:35:26 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Miles Beyond LOL, Catherine--that is sooooooooo funny, as I remember reading some comments in the past regarding your moms opinions on Joni's music. :-D She sounds like quite the pistol !!! XXXOOO, Aunt Wilma ;-) ================================ Catherine (anima_rising@yahoo.ca) replied: >>>Billy, are you my mother? <<< Catherine Toronto ================================ I'd previously written: >>>And then 'Hejira' (in '76), ...mostly droning from one chilly dirge to another. <<< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 13:01:32 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: favorite Joni sideman I'll throw in a vote for Henry Lewy, her long-time Engineer. You can't hear him on the albums per se, but you can sure hear the benefits of what he did. Bob NP: Led Zeppelin, "Darlene" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 13:28:28 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Miles Beyond I don't know, Monika ... I'm not sure you can compare Joni's pre-'75 classics to the post-'75 stuff in the same way that you can compare FTR to CAS (or ANY of the first 6 albums, for that matter). With THOSL, Joni abruptly made a complete switch from personal confession to social commentary--which was something she'd never done before. It was an entirely different KIND of "progression," and THAT's what surprised (and even baffled) most people at the time. In retrospect, however, I AM glad that she didn't keep repeating the same old formula--particularly if it meant the end result was inferior. But that STILL doesn't mean I prefer THOSL over B, FTR, CAS or even MOA. ;-) XXXOOO, Billy NP: 'twelve' (2007) by Patti Smith. The more I listen, the more I like this one. Unlike earlier discs, this one has much more "hit" potential (thanks, largely, to the often glossier, more mainstream production). ================================= Monika (Motitan@aol.com) wrote: >>> It (THOSL) was a very different album as you point out lyrically and musically yet sometimes I wonder why was anyone surprised? I just find it kind of funny that some people were so shocked or surprised to find this album coming next after Blue, C&S, LOTC, etc etc. Because to me (once again just a subjective perspective) Blue is as different from Court & Spark as For The Roses is as different from Ladies Of The Canyon. If Joni had made one truly remarkable album and just copied its formula for the next album and the next and the next (like so many bands do today, ugh) and made the same album over and over again, I doubt I myself would like her so much. <<< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:01:47 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Miles Beyond/hey Billy! Em (emzdogz@yahoo.com) wrote: >>> I completely "get it" what you've been saying. I feel that way too. But trying to get Joni to give us what she no longer wants to give us, or is no longer capable of giving us, is like trying to stop a force of nature, I think. << < And I agree, Em, as I wouldn't DREAM of "trying to get Joni to give us what she is no longer capable of." It's just that I personally prefer the earlier stuff. Em added: >>> every once in a while a golden nugget like the song "TI" pops out, just to tease and let us know its still there. <<< Absolutely, Em. Some of the post-'75 work that most resonates for me include "Refuge of the Roads," "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter," "Underneath the Streetlight," "Night Ride Home," "Two Grey Rooms," "Borderline" and "Stay In Touch" (just to name a handfull). No one--except for Laura Nyro--reaches my soul the way Joni does! XXXOOO, Billy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:37:27 -0400 From: "Jenny Goodspeed" Subject: Re: Miles Beyond I think Joni could be singing the Gettysburg address to the melodies and chord progressions on HOSL and it'd still be my favorite. Jenny On 5/1/07, Motitan@aol.com wrote: > > But to be more specific, I suddenly found most of the lyrics on THOSL to > be > soooooooo cliched compared to the classic, deeply confessional mid-period > of > BLUE, FTR and CAS. Disappointingly detached and emotionally bankrupt. I > think > "Shades of Scarlett Conquering" is weak both musically and lyrically, and > "Harry's House" isn't much better. To me, they're largely nothing more > than > pretty sounding, superficial gloss and glitter, with very little > discernible > substance (as the majority of critics pointed out in 1975). > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > --------------------------------------- > Hmm, ok then. As much as it pains me to read anything negative on > THOSL > (I think it's my favorite Joni album....top 2 if not the favorite), I > guess > I can understand your reaction as well as the reactions that I always > read > about (in articles and reviews and such) when Joni released the > album. It was > a very different album as you point out lyrically and musically yet > sometimes > I wonder why was anyone surprised? I'll explain in a minute here. > I like the fact that on this album Joni branches out from her > confessional, inward writing style and looks out into the world. Sure, > she realizes > that not everything is all sunshine and roses (a fact I hope people > know...that's why you have to look for the good things) but this gives > her more to > analyze? I'm not sure if that's the word I was looking for but take it > or leave > it. That's really something I truly admire about the album as much as I > love > Joni's previous writing. It just illustrates yet another facet to her > writing previously unknown or more or less previously only glimpsed > into. You know > what I mean? I mean for all the people who think Joni only writes about > herself or is too engrossed in her own world, I'd give them THOSL to > listen to. > You don't have to agree with what it has to say but she is looking > outward > there. > And of course this is all so subjective as music or anything really is > when you think about it. To me, I don't find anything emotionally > bankrupt > about the album. I can hear the different emotions (quite a few of them > I > think) in Joni's voice. I really do love her singing on this album. > Oh and before I forget, I did say I would explain something earlier in > this post. I just find it kind of funny that some people were so shocked > or > surprised to find this album coming next after Blue, C&S, LOTC, etc etc. > Because to me (once again just a subjective perspective) Blue is as > different > from Court & Spark as For The Roses is as different from Ladies Of The > Canyon. > Every album, (though we hear Joni's "style" in her playing and tone and > what > not) is such a vast change from the previous. Would you have thought > that > the girl who wrote Song To A Seagull would be the same one to write > Hejira? > Yes and no. Yes because you could see just from her first few albums > there was > always progression and change. You can't say that C&S is just another > Clouds or anything like that. Yes, also because C&S and MOA (and a > couple tunes > on For The Roses) see Joni going into a more "jazzier" style. > No, because nobody could have predicted what Joni's next album would > be > like. Nobody can say, "oh Hejira just sounds like something Joni would > have > OF COURSE written." In a way she is very unpredictable. She does what > she > does without wondering how to make her next "smash" hit or do something > that's > expected of her. If Joni had made one truly remarkable album and just > copied its formula for the next album and the next and the next (like so > many > bands do today, ugh) and made the same album over and over again, I doubt > I > myself would like her so much. Sure I may like that album but she > wouldn't be the > artist she is. Art requires experimentation I think. > But it's so funny (not funny haha but...) how everyone is so different > and sees something in a different way than others. It's all so > subjective but > I figure I'd put my opinion in as I'm a big fan of THOSL. I mean you say > to-ma-to and I say ta-ma-to. People are fascinating when you think about > it! > And nothing any one person says changes the mind of another....strange! > And I just say thank you to those who are still with me reading this > way > too long (and not too interesting) post. You have much endurance, kudos. > -Monika > P.S. And the great thing about Joni's music is that there is something for > everyone I think. It's so diverse! I love that! > > > > > ************************************** See what's free at > http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:34:32 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Miles Beyond NJC Please, Jenny - don't go giving Bob Murphy any ideas. Bob NP: Steely Dan, "FM" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:57:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Miles Beyond - --- Wtking59@cs.com wrote: > LOL, Catherine--that is sooooooooo funny, as I > remember reading some comments > in the past regarding your moms opinions on Joni's > music. :-D > > She sounds like quite the pistol !!! > > > XXXOOO, > Aunt Wilma ;-) > Ha ha! I'm so glad I didn't have to 'splain that. My mama wasn't a Joni fan, I guess. I think she and Myrtle might have got along really well though. Catherine Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 15:35:33 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Miles Beyond Catherine (anima_rising@yahoo.ca) wrote: >>> My mama wasn't a Joni fan... <<< Don't feel bad, Catherine--my dad always felt the same way towards Joni's music. And while I'm at it, he also thought she was a DOG to look at (!?!?!). Go figure... ;-) XXXOOO, Billy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 12:19:59 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: favorite Joni sideman At 09:05 AM 5/1/2007, Dflahm@aol.com wrote: >The reason Jaco is my "favorite" is that, to me he seems to have inspired JM >more than anyone else. Agreed. And not really a "sideman" so much as a collaborator, I'd have to add Charles Mingus to the list of musicians who helped shape Joni's musical path. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 15:39:56 -0400 From: "anon anon" Subject: "don't interrupt the sorrow"-instrumental????-Darned wrong!!! I really don't understand why DITS would be played as an intrumental... It doesn't make any sense... the lyrics to this song are so powerful and important!!! Whoever made this descision was NOT thinking clearly in my opinion. _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as $771/month* https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:20:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Miles Beyond - --- Wtking59@cs.com wrote: > Catherine (anima_rising@yahoo.ca) wrote: > > >>> My mama wasn't a Joni fan... <<< > > > Don't feel bad, Catherine--my dad always felt the > same way towards Joni's > music. And while I'm at it, he also thought she was > a DOG to look at (!?!?!). > > Go figure... ;-) > > Well, isn't that the darndest thing. It just goes to show you that we all have our own unique (and sometimes very weird) ideas of what looks good, sounds good and so on. My kids both think Joni is ugly. My daughter admits that Joni was very pretty when she was young - ha! weren't we all! Some people just don't get it, do they! Catherine Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:23:29 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: "don't interrupt the sorrow"-instrumental????-Darned wrong!!! While the lyrics are complex and among Joni's most cryptic, the melody stands on its own. That's what makes it an interesting cover, and Brad Mehldau is certainly one who can find and expand the melodic nuances in the song as he did earlier with "Roses Blue". Joni's melodies and chord structures open themselves up so much to instrumental interpretation by jazz musicians, it doesn't mean that the lyrics are not worthy but rather that the musical composition is equally strong. Bob NP: Bruce Sprinsteen, "The Price You Pay" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #177 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------