From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #108 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, March 11 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 108 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Word article ["Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" ] Sherelle and Kurt Elling and Bob Sheppard (Joni moments) ["Kate Bennett" ] Fw: Joni's voice/Word article ["Kate Bennett" ] TV Shows NJC, now Sesame Street & Letterman & kids ["Kate Bennett" ] [none] ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: Word article ["Marion Leffler" ] joni . . . love of nature ["Marianne Rizzo" ] RE: Word article [Deb Messling ] Re: Word article [Victor Johnson ] Re: The Word article [missblux@googlemail.com] NJC Re: Kingdom [missblux@googlemail.com] Re: Sherelle (njc) [Victor Johnson ] Sherelle and Kurt Elling and Bob Sheppard (Joni moments) ["Patti Parlette] njc, another bloody list ["Patti Parlette" ] re: The good, the bad, the ugly, the bold, the beautiful.... ["mia _" ] RE: Kath and Kim NJC ["Hell" ] Re: Word article ["Randy Remote" ] sneak preview - CSHOF Gala photos ["Michael O'Malley" ] Re: CBC Documentary, Part 1 [Bob Muller ] Re: Word article [Em ] Re: Word article [Victor Johnson ] For anyone seriously interested in learning more about the history of "goat dancing" (njc) [Victor Johnson ] Joni travels [Motitan@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 03:42:18 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" Subject: Word article I don't think it's a logical position. I think it's a psycho-logical position. Sure. Most of her childhood friends were boys. Playing "Roy Rogers" was good enough for the boys, so it was good enough for Joan. McMath left her for California. She left Canada and settled in California. She collaborated with lots of talented people and (with few exceptions) they were all men. (Chaka Kahn and...?) She didn't sing with Dolly & Emmylou; she sang with The Chieftans. She sees herself as a cat among dogs. So, in that world, she has no need for feminism. She made her mark without it. Where's the problem? The thing she does better than anyone else is express contradiction. All the best, Jim L. Marion Leffler said, >There is one thing that puzzles me about her, though, and that is her constant rejection of feminism. In some interviews, she has said that feminists are "too aggressive". In the Word article, she repeats for the umptiest time that her music is raceless and genderless. And that it isn't "feminine". I think it is!! She certainly speaks with a woman's voice in all her lyrics, and how could she not? Anybody else baffled by this?> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 00:05:05 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Sherelle and Kurt Elling and Bob Sheppard (Joni moments) I feel the same as you Kakki. I'd not seen Sherelle since that first full moon fest (2002 I think it was) & it was so great to see her again. She had such fun with you & I was a bit worried that your hospitality & cool LA music adventures would be a hard act to follow. I picked her up in SB yesterday AM & we drove around some areas, along the beach, over to Montecito & the foothills, then back downtown to SB to have lunch. Then over the mountain to Santa Ynez. We drove around a bit more to see some of the beautiful countryside then went into a few of the shops in downtown SY (blink & you'll miss it!). For the evening, Jeff joined us & we went up to Cold Spring Tavern (on the mountain) to hear a Django Reinhart (sp?) style band that I'd heard before & thought she'd enjoy. I told her that Victor, Kakki, Richard (of GA), & the Dulson's had all set foot there at one point or another. What I love about the Tavern is in all the years I've been going there, nothing has changed one bit. It is an old stage coach stop from way back. We had fun talking to a man who had worked there 30 years ago told us how he'd (back then) met a 90 year old woman who came in & said it hadn't changed at all since she had been there as a kid in a buckboard! So that would have been 100 or more years ago! Nice to know there is one place that remains the same. Sherelle went back to the train this morning to visit another friend in LA. I look forward to the day when she comes back this way on her music tour! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 00:18:04 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Fw: Joni's voice/Word article Oh no, another thread called joni's voice! LOL. Anyway, I just realized that when I met her recently, & she was speaking, her voice did not at all sound like she was a heavy smoker for so many years... I haven't ever heard her speak in person before so I don't have anything to compare to but perhaps & hopefully her voice has indeed improved... also, I know she had a cig in her hand but I don't recall that she actually smoked it...then again I was in a bit of a fog but that is what I recall... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 00:32:13 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: TV Shows NJC, now Sesame Street & Letterman & kids Patti, what a great story about your son- I hope you have this on tape! And, yes, KL has a bit of Kermie in him. LOL. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:47:59 +0000 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: NJC Erskine Hi Kakki, I'm writing a reply to your email about the Word article, problem is it gets a bit long and I myself tire from looking at long emails from myself..! Sherelle is a lovely person I'd love to meet as well! As for you email, I didn't know that Peter Erskine had played with Joni - and some time ago I didn' know that Michael Brecker had played with her either. Things all fall into place now - Erskine was also a drummer on Steps Ahead, where Brecker played too. That's interesting... Bn - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:14:38 -0800 From: Subject: Sherelle and Kurt Elling and Bob Sheppard (Joni moments) The Divine Miss Sherelle is spending a week out here in California and we got to spend a wonderful time yesterday catching up. I haven't seen her since the first Jonifest in Pittsburgh 9 years ago. It was just fantastic to visit with her again. She is such an inspiration and good lady. I figured she might like to go see some jazz and magically my fave Kurt Eilling was in town with band playing at Catalina Bar & Grill. We scored a table right next to the left stage. Kurt was blowing us away and then announced a special guest - none other than the legendary Bob Sheppard on alto sax! Bob toured with Joni throughout the 2000 Both Sides Now concert. Sherelle just loved getting "close to Joni" in a sense and they were smiling back and forth a bit with each other. Bob and Joni's 2000 tour drummer Peter Erskine have both recorded on Kurt's albums. He really attracts the cream of the "cats." Jeff Clayton of the Clayton Hamilton Jazz Orchestra (the "house" jazz orchestra of the Hollywood Bowl) was also sitting behind us. It was some stunning music. Afterward I just had to take her by the Hotel Bel Air bar where we sat by the fire reminiscing and I walked her through the Van and Joni 1998 tour parties there ;-) We both kept saying how lucky and appreciative we have been to have made so many incredible friends over the years through this list. She took off on the coast train to visit Kate B. in Santa Barbara wine country this morning. I'm sure she is going to have many great tales to tell when she gets back home. Sherelle, thank you again for taking the time to meet up and please come back again! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 06:27:00 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: word article WOW. . the article. . I still have to digest it some more. . but my first feelings are that is is packed with joni's values, and I like them. . and they are good. She is all for the good of the people and I feel she is a truth sayer. and the world does not always want the truth. The beginning of the article bothered me. I feel there were a lot of sound bites that were put together in a manner to 1. catch readers' attention 2. make joni look crass, hard, icy (that kind of thing). I dislike the way the article started. I felt as though the writer did not have positive regard for joni or they didin't care. There is a lot of good stuff in the article as you read on. (first impressions) Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE. http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 06:55:12 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: [none] "the western mind has been playing with a half deck for a long time now." Joni this pretty much sums it up. . (I am listening to the earth day talk that joni gave) Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:22:34 +0100 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: Re: Word article So being the one woman who made it amongst all these men gives her the right to make hostile statements about other women still struggling? Marion - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" To: "JMDL" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 8:42 AM Subject: Word article >I don't think it's a logical position. I think it's a psycho-logical > position. Sure. Most of her childhood friends were boys. Playing "Roy > Rogers" was good enough for the boys, so it was good enough for Joan. > > McMath left her for California. She left Canada and settled in > California. > > She collaborated with lots of talented people and (with few exceptions) > they > were all men. (Chaka Kahn and...?) She didn't sing with Dolly & Emmylou; > she sang with The Chieftans. > > She sees herself as a cat among dogs. So, in that world, she has no need > for feminism. She made her mark without it. Where's the problem? The > thing she does better than anyone else is express contradiction. > > All the best, > Jim L. > > Marion Leffler said, >>There is one thing that puzzles me about her, though, and that is her > constant > rejection of feminism. In some interviews, she has said that feminists are > "too aggressive". In the Word article, she repeats for the umptiest time > that > her music is raceless and genderless. And that it isn't "feminine". I > think > it > is!! She certainly speaks with a woman's voice in all her lyrics, and how > could she not? Anybody else baffled by this?> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 07:37:57 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: joni . . . love of nature http://www.commonwealthclub.org/archive/05/05-04mitchell-audio.html Thank you Michael. I love to hear this . . everybody, If you have not heard this. . I think you would really want to. to me it is very inspiring. ""what will happen whe the buffalo are slaughtered?" chief seatle "we're going to concrete over it all. . " joni there is a lot in this interview. . take it as your sunday school Marianne From: "Michael O'Malley" Subject: Re: joni...love of nature The complete download of Joni's 2005 Earth Day lecture at the Commonwealth Club is available on their website at http://www.commonwealthclub.org/archive/05/05-04mitchell-audio.html _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:20:02 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: RE: Word article >This isn't nearly as grumpy as I'd been led to believe by reading people's >posts here. I agree, Richard; some of her humor shined through the usual complaints. I'm also so tickled by the news that there will be so many piano songs on the new album. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- dlmessling@rcn.com http://www.sensibleshoes.vox.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:53:37 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Word article On Mar 11, 2007, at 8:22 AM, Marion Leffler wrote: > So being the one woman who made it amongst all these men gives her > the right to make hostile statements about other women still > struggling? > Marion > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" > > To: "JMDL" > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 8:42 AM > Subject: Word article > > >> >> She sees herself as a cat among dogs. So, in that world, she has >> no need >> for feminism. She made her mark without it. Where's the >> problem? The >> thing she does better than anyone else is express contradiction. >> >> All the best, >> Jim L. "You can't tell a girl wrote my later work. It doesn't have a feminine perspective." Joni Mitchell Maybe to Joni it doesn't because that's how she views herself but I think other people view the feminine in her. I certainly do. I find her much more feminine than say, Grace Jones. Maybe she's a bit in denial about her feminine side. Interestingly, she doesn't even mention women when she says her bit about white straight males, black men, and gay men. India Arie also successfully rejected the traditional way women are perceived and marketed as sex objects but in doing so, in my opinion, comes across as even sexier. But she embraces her femininity whereas Joni seems to repress it. And that's certainly okay, everybody has a different road to follow, a different journey in self discovery but I just find it interesting she views herself that way. Try imagining a man having written and sung Joni's last few albums. Does it work for you? I'm not sure it does. Victor NP: Daniel Lanois "Carla" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:57:14 +0000 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Re: The Word article HI Kakki, here is my attempt at an ultra-short response to your email about that article! I see all your points, and realize that some of my reactions to what she says are fairly irrational. First of all, something that IS rational. Her point about North America: it's an entangled issue (but then all things are entangled in my view!). If you are living in North America, I think it is justified to look at that part of the world and say WE must do something about what is going on in OUR part of the world. And the US needs to do a lot. As far as I understand there are few places in the US were you would get by without a car, and many families have more than one, and cars in the US tend to be enormous. My friend in LA tells me its normal to leave the heat on 24/7. These things are certainly not standard in Northern Europe. Of course, in terms of caring about the environment the US is surely ahead of a country like China, both on the private and the corporate level. You could blame the West, because it's western lifestyle spreading to the entire globe. But there is a point where the guilt complexes of the West get out of hand and actually imply that we think the rest of the world just can't think for itself. As for her own lifestyle, I guess what she says is that she has changed her habits, and that's progress. I hear Al Gore is about to change his habits, too! As for war, she lives in the US, GWB is president, and he has decided to wage war, and until recently also supported those who think global warming is a hoax. Clearly that is an insane allocation of resources, both material ones and human ones. So I take her point. Yes, her remark about that association 'that buys presidents' is off the mark, and considering her own hard time with the critics, it's not wise of her to call BobD and VanM human jukeboxes, and PaulS an imitator. Its the kind of thing you can say off the record, but never to journalists. Especially if you KNOW that you don't do good sound bites!!! I realize that if her words fascinate me it is for slightly irrational reasons. I guess I have to come out of the closet with a condition that may be worse than Patti's Joni Tourettes (or whatever it is!), namely some sort of 'Joni-is-just-like-me'-syndrome... I don't in general like these discussions about what Joni is really like - but here goes. I've said a few words about the following before, I remember you chuckling over it because she has been such a sparkling and vibrant person when you've met her. I never met her and as Ingrid said very wisely, my thoughts about this probably reflect who I am more than they reflect what Joni is like. I can come across as both witty and funny and self-assured, and I guess I really am (and intelligent and pretty, haha..! ). Other times people have found me to be arrogant, perhaps even bitter. The truth is I suffer from depression. I have good friends who have refused to believe it until I explained to them how it works. When you suffer from that condition, sometimes being with other people brings out the very best in you, you may have been locked up in your own thoughts all day, and getting out and about is like seeing sunshine or gasping fresh air for the first time. I have seen it in other people too. A significant ex-boyfriend was someone I fell for because of the completely irrestistible radiance of his smile. We split up because none of us could cope with his moody and abusive side, the flip side of what I fell for so to speak. Joni has said somewhere that she suffers from depression, as is typical of so many outstanding artists. Many people on this list do so too as far as I understand; it makes sense that her music resonates with us. When I see those clips where she is being honoured and looks absolutely thrilled and when I hear about her radiance at public appearances I think of the things I just said. Depression is a condition where you look at the world in a gloomy and distorted way; when you manage to snap out of it it is like some rusty old engine has been cleaned and oiled and everything works fab and its such fun etc. There are many ways you can react, for instance you can get angry and bitter. I love some of her comments because they are sharp and edgy, and someone said epic. One of my friends once said he loved my sarcasm when I was being gloomy, that it suited me. You develop an edge which is somehow a way of cutting through the darkness. When these things come out in the form of music or lyrics they can feel really poignant, when they come out in an interview they can sound facile and shallow. Here is just a comment that mention of a link between digestion and singing (how embarrassing is it that the jmdl now has a thread discussing Joni's digestion!!). There is a whole host of digestive disorders that have depression as a side-effect; when you change your diet it seems that it begins to go away, at least that's how it seems to work with me; I was diagnosed with food-intolerance some time ago. Difficult not to think 'hey she's just like me!' when I saw that mention of some digestive disorder...! I am trying hard not to put this in terms of 'I think Joni is like this...' because I don't really like to make that sort of statement. I'd rather like to say I am like this and I therefore react to her comments like this. But at the same time I am not writing all this to moan about my own state of mind, just to put a different perspective on some things. I had a fairly sad encounter with an old musician friend some time ago. It left me in a lot of distress, and I moaned to my friend, saying, 'how can he write such beautiful music, so full of insight, and be such disaster on the personal level??' She is a singer-songwriter like him, and she said to me, 'well, remember that sometimes the music is larger than the man.' I found that one hard to swallow, because this is someone I admire, his music convinces me so much, and I'd like to think all of him is like his music. But then looking at my own academic work I realize that it's only the stuff that is clear and logical that I'll allow to get published, most of the time I sit here and produce page after page of garbled messy stuff that only I can make sense of. So am I a clear and logical thinker or a messy and fussy one? Same thing with Joni I guess? Sorry this was so long! And a nice Sunday to all, here in the UK its a brilliant day... I guess it just crossed the Atlantic, hopefully its keeping up the good work over there! Bene ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:59:56 +0000 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: NJC Re: Kingdom Hey another Bob on the list! Pennies from Heaven is decades old isn't it? I remember it was on the telly in DK when I was a teenager.... BN On 3/11/07, Bob Durnan wrote: > > > > > Glad to hear you mention it  Kingdom was shown here in Australia on the > multicultural Special Broadcasting Service (SBS), and was very addictive, at > least for me. Twin Peaks was even better. But the best was the extraordinary > British "Pennies from Heaven", by Dennis Potter, which starred Barney > Hoskins. Potter also did "The Singing Detective", another TV classic of > fiction. > > Stay tuned. > > > > Bob Durnan > > Health Services Development Officer > > Western Aranda Health Ab. Corp. (WAHAC) > > Hermannsburg NT 0872 > > > > phone 08 8954 6028 or 0402 577 097 > > fax 08 8954 9021 > > Email: bdurnan@ozemail.com.au > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 10:15:11 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Sherelle (njc) I'm so glad Sherelle was able to experience the same journey I went on a few years ago. I often think about sitting in the cafe in downtown LA, drinking martinis with Kakki, going to Laurel Canyon for dinner, drinking coffee at the Bellair Hotel, visiting the German restaurant, then trekking up the coast to Santa Barbara to visit Kate and Jeff and attend the Joni Mitchell tribute. I hope to go on this same journey again some day soon. It is one not to be missed. Victor, wearing my "Soho restaurant shirt" today On Mar 11, 2007, at 4:05 AM, Kate Bennett wrote: > We drove around a bit more to see some of > the beautiful countryside then went into a few of the shops in > downtown SY > (blink & you'll miss it!). For the evening, Jeff joined us & we > went up to > Cold Spring Tavern (on the mountain) to hear a Django Reinhart > (sp?) style > band that I'd heard before & thought she'd enjoy. I told her that > Victor, > Kakki, Richard (of GA), & the Dulson's had all set foot there at > one point > or another. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:16:38 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: Sherelle and Kurt Elling and Bob Sheppard (Joni moments) Thanks for the good news, Kakki! You are lucky to get to entertain so many Joni guests all the time. Who says Joni is the reigning Queen of LA? I'd say you give her a run for her (love or) money. And I am so happy to hear that Sherelle is not on a lonely road and she is travelling, travelling, travelling!' Sherelle. My Strawberry Fields Sister. I can just "imagine" her settling down into the clickety clack with the clouds and the stars to read. I'm dreaming of the pleasure she's going to have on her way from point K (Kakki, in the city of the fallen angels) to point KB (Kate Bennett). Did you pack your suspenders, Sherelle? Kate will come meet your train! (I know it's supposed to be plane.) Oh, but California....California! You'll get to to see the folks you dig! California is one of my favorite places on this marbled bowling ball. I meant to go over and ask for a song. Maybe you two can put on a harmony! And maybe Kate will have you up early on the ranch, brushing out a brood mare's tail. Just look out for those coyotes. Have fun and shine like the sun, Ladies of the JMDL Canyon! And happy trails to you, too, Senor Paz, and the rest of the Joni monde. Love & Peace, Patti P. Sounds like you guys had a great time. Wish i could have been there. In Ft. Wayne Indiana to tonight and home tomorrow. Love Paz _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:54:03 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: njc, another bloody list More about the war, and the bloody changes: 7. They can hold all the peace talks they want, but there will never be peace in the Middle East. Billions of years from now, when Earth is hurtling toward the Sun and there is nothing left alive on the planet except a few microorganisms, the microorganisms living in the Middle East will be bitter enemies. That is why, in my opinion, we should never NEVER N E V E R have thrown a rock into that hornet's nest. Heckuva job, Bush and Cheney. Caught in the devil's bargain. Joni is so right to say that calling the current war a holy war is "just obsene and ignorant and tragic." Generally speaking, I posted these two quotes to my high school alumni list back in February 2003, helplessly hoping to prevent the war: "If we go in (to Iraq) unilaterally, or without the full weight of international organizations behind us, if we go in with a very sparse number of allies, if we go in without an effective information operation.....we're liable to supercharge recruiting for al-Qaida." - --General Wesley Clark, former NATO Supreme Commander "It's pretty interesting that all the generals see it the same way, and all the others who have never fired a shot, and are hot to go to war, see it another....We are about to do something that will ignite a fuse in this region that we will rue the day we ever started..." - --Marine General Anthony Zinni, former Head of Central Command for U.S. Forces in the Middle East Nobody stopped to hear them. Sigh. ABOUT FACE! 11. There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." LOL....like the very fine white lines of being a "fan" of Joni Mitchell and having "JMOCD"? Love & peace, Patti P. >Some of these lists are fun, some are rubbish; I like this one a lot. I >have no idea who Dave Barry is, but he's on to something. > >http://www.piffe.com/jokes/25things.phtml > >Azeem in London _________________________________________________________________ Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE. http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:28:31 -0600 From: "mia _" Subject: re: The good, the bad, the ugly, the bold, the beautiful.... <> I do, Bryan. I really dig the rhythms and the music is great! Sounds even better with the headphones on. I wouldn't consider Number One a sketch though. I think it's a complete song with great rhythms and music. But Dream, yes, is more like a sketch to me. Now Snakes and Ladders is another story. Extremely annoying and well, just plain old yukky! You couldn't make this song better if you tried. Dancing Clown could be interesting if it was stripped down without all the weird echo and fancy synth stuff. It might make a good lullaby. Mia _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:55:14 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Word article "You can't tell a girl wrote my later work. It doesn't have a feminine perspective." Joni Mitchell - --------------------------------------------------- Well, perhaps (and this of course is just my theory on it) Joni rejects the idea being labeled as "feminine" or writing from a feminist perspective, because first off she doesn't like labels. We already see this everytime somebody calls her "folk singer Joni Mitchell" or "songstress Joni Mitchell." Slapping a label on artists is more for the record companies and the press than it is for a fan or the artist themselves. I mean, do you like when people generalize something about you (take anything for example--a characteristic of your personality) and see you only as that. Certain expectations arise from those around you and you become one dimensional in a way. You become one dimensional in the way that you know that you are more than what people say or think about you, especially if is the same thing over and over. And of course, for an artist, I think it stands stronger. Articles come out labeling you as a "folk singer" and people who are turned off by folk music or the word folk itself (or whatever it is) won't even look at you twice. So you turn off people from (and get some interested if they like what it says) the start with labels (thanks to the media and the music business). Second off, who wants to be limited to just a few things? Possibilities are endless and why be one thing or another? There is always room to grow and you know that yourself. Lastly (and more in tune with the feminist comments but going off what I said generally in the above paragraphs), labeling Joni or her music I mean as "feminist" turns off a load of people. The word "feminine" has positive connotations or maybe for some invokes nothing. Good. But let's face it, the word "feminist" has negative connotations, thanks to all the tv shows portraying "feminists" as short haired, butch, angry, men hating women. You say her music is written from a feminist perspective, you will turn people away right off. Will your typical red blooded male pounding down a few beers be interested in Joni Mitchell and her "feminist" music? Chances are slim (sure it can happen as she has male fans and what not but I hope you know what I mean---and I don't mean that all guys are idiots that just go to bars and get drunk--I was just trying to make a point). But honestly you start slapping that word around and it could get ugly. It gives people the wrong idea or it could. So maybe Joni doesn't really think her music is so. Or maybe she just doesn't want to be known as one thing or another. Why have limits? She's broken boundaries in her music and maybe wants to break boundaries in the way people see her. - -Monika


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 12:47:51 -0600 From: est86mlm@ameritech.net Subject: Word article (Les & Les) Thanks so much Les and to you too, Les! What a treat! Laura O. No JONI content below. **************************************************************** A gift from Old Spice http://www.oldspiceshaving.com/promotions_new.asp Garnier Skin Sample from Walmart (your email addy is optional) http://walmart.triaddigital.com/enhancedrendercontent_ektid11880.aspx Disposable face wash-cloths from Olay http://www.total-effects.com/sample/OLD_GATOR_clothsample.shtml WIN a $500 Best Buy G/C http://www.niveapromo.com/nfm_cbssportsline2007/ WIN $50 TicketMaster Cash http://www.energizer.com/ticketmaster/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:45:17 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: the word I personally find it refreshing when a big Hummer full of ganstas pulls up next to you at a light, and instead of that thunderous, pounding rap noise, the lovely sounds of FTR pour out of the windows. From: "Smurf" > "I have a big black audience, fans who are warriors > all round the world. The second in command of the > Crips in LA is a 300-pound black man and he is a fan. > They are emotional people who do not fear to listen to > me." > > --Joni Mitchell > > > Jesus Christ, she's finally lost it! > > --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:46:55 +1300 From: "Hell" Subject: RE: Kath and Kim NJC Garret wrote: > I love Kath and Kim. It really is one of those shows that you'll love > or hate, but i even find the title song hilarious. and that scene you > mention "you pack of chunts" is fairly well known in my group of > friends! that and "sharon, have you got your wallet?", "pash rash", > "look at me", "it's nice, it's normal". and pacifically and all the > other small word plays. oh and i love pru and tru. The word plays are hilarious. More of my favourites include: "He's gropable." "You're just clutching at spanners." "It's over. O-V-A-H over!" "He's getting right up my goat." "What are you staring at, stare-bear?" "Treat 'em mean, keep em' keen." "No way, Jose" (and the J is not silent) A face mask with Jojoba (again, the J's are not silent) and Hello Vera. Choosing baby names was another hilarious moment. Some more favourites after a visit to the hospital: Catheter IV Neil-by-mouth And my all-time favourite: Cardio infarction, which Kath vetoed because "he'll get called farc for short". K&K has also coined a new phrase that's made it into the Australian dictionary - "muffin-top". This is seen when a not-so-slim woman wears jeans or pants that are too tight, and bulge over the waist, as a muffin does when it rises over the sides of the pan. Another new phrase, "whale-tail" can also be seen on K&K. This is the top of a g-string when seen above the back waistband of jeans/pants. Hell ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:44:37 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: Word article From: "Victor Johnson" > I find her much more feminine than say, Grace Jones. Heck, Chuck Norris is more feminine than Grace Jones. But it brings up a good point regarding girlie image versus butch image. I'd have to put Joni in between the two (hmm..); she doesn't run around all girlie and sexual like Stevie Nicks or Gwen Stefani, but she is sexy in a bohemian kind of way, and more traditionally feminine than Annie Lennox or Pattie Smith. And as Liz Phair said, being perceived as somewhat fuckable is part of the job, and Joni knows this, (though it may not be so important to her these days). Still, I cannot think of a good reason why she would not stand up proudly for the cause of feminism-since gender abuse worldwide is stemming from the same mentality as war and planet-rape. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:20:27 +0000 From: "Michael O'Malley" Subject: sneak preview - CSHOF Gala photos I captured a few nice shots of Joni and guests from the DVD that I recorded of the CSHOF Gala, which aired on CBC-TV March 5. Thanks to Brian Gross, there will be copies of this DVD circulating within the JMDL soon. In the meantime, here a a few sneak previews. (You can see Joni's companion in a couple of these shots.) http://michaelquebec.spaces.live.com/ Enjoy. Michael in Quebec NP: Sarah Slean - Lucky Me _________________________________________________________________ Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live Spaces. http://spaces.live.com/?mkt=en-ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:12:09 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: WORD article The WORD article is now in the Library at http://jmdl.com/library/view.cfm?id=1580 . The PDF link no longer works. Thanks to Leslie Gibson for typing it. which allows you all to now thank Les, Les, and Leslie for getting it online. : - ) Les NP: Susumu Yokota "Gekko" from the Babel soundtrack ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:05:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: CBC Documentary, Part 1 You're very welcome, Catherine - and I was remiss in not crediting Doug Meek for the audio. If not for his efforts & generosity, I wouldn't have it to share in the first place - a big thanks to you, Doug! Bob NP: The Rolling Stones, "Wild Horses" - --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:51:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Word article - --- Randy Remote wrote: > From: "Victor Johnson" > > I find her much more feminine than say, Grace Jones. > > Heck, Chuck Norris is more feminine than Grace Jones. lol!!!! something along those lines was my first thought too, re: Grace Jones. (except that in person, Gracew J. is quite little, who knew?) Joni is just being lazy about feminism. Its taked care of and encompassed in the struggles for more general freedom she expresses. She's not in the mood for that can o'worms. I don't blame her. She can do what she wants and isn't in the mood to deal with any demand in the direction of feminism. She gets by without any organized movement. Its like what Lama said in his post. She doesn't owe anyone anything. You take from her work what you can take. Suck the bone down to the marrow and if feminism isn't in there, then I guess you have to suck a different bone to get your fix. Alot of my favorite music allows me to be devoid of gender. God it is so freeing. Dylan does it for me, the Doors, others, Steely Dan...sh_t. I'm like, oh I'm a chick? I forgot.... and its like taking flight....leave the mortal chains behind and just fly as a human. Em ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 21:48:56 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Word article > She doesn't owe anyone anything. > You take from her work what you can take. > Suck the bone down to the marrow and if feminism isn't in there, > then I > guess you have to suck a different bone to get your fix. > Alot of my favorite music allows me to be devoid of gender. God it is > so freeing. > Dylan does it for me, the Doors, others, Steely Dan...sh_t. I'm like, > oh I'm a chick? I forgot.... > and its like taking flight....leave the mortal chains behind and just > fly as a human. > Em lol.....That's what's so great about music. It bridges gender, race, etc...My friend Amy and I were talking this weekend about how much we both like Dave Matthews. The more I listen to him the more talented I think he is. In particular I was listening to the Concert in the Park which totally rocks. I need to learn a DMB song so I can impress Paz before I see him. As far as feminism goes, I agree, I don't think it matters whether or not it is addressed in any of her music. It is what it is. Organic and natural. And that's the best kind of music. I just don't think she gives herself enough credit as far as being a woman. She especially looked very feminine and queenly in the pictures that Michael in Quebec posted (thanks Michael.) I don't think anyone would disagree that she is exceedingly beautiful. Victor NP: John Lennon "Instant Karma" - we all shine on!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 21:58:19 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: For anyone seriously interested in learning more about the history of "goat dancing" (njc) I was interested in learning more about goat dancing so I contacted a professor, Richard Blau, from the University of Wisconsin who had done a presentation on it. He in turn referred my questions to a colleague of his, Agapi, who did her graduate work in Skyros. I received an email from her this weekend and have posted it below. Very fascinating... Victor NP: Bob Marley "Natural Mystic" from Agapi- I do not know of any direct social or historical connection of Skyrian carnival to the Romanian winter festival (there are a great many of these around Europe, every little locale has its version). Definitely they all belong to the same broad genre of earth renewal rituals, or seasonal rites as anthropologists call them, they are stemmed in agrarian pastoral popular- pagan cosmological beliefs in earth reproduction of life key fertility symbols so on. However, it is very hard to trace direct relations. Folklorists do (or used to) do comparative taxonomies, but anthropologists are much too weary and cultural relativists Im afraid. However, the Romanian festival is a winter festival and not strictly aligned with carnival and the religious period of Lent. In the Greek Orthodox Christian calendar carnival is the 3 weeks prior to Lent and is calculated 40 days before Easter (which is the first Sunday after the first full moon following the spring equinox). In Roman Catholic countries carnival is the period before Lent whether it is the three days immediately previous, or the whole period between the 3rd of February and Ash Wednesday. Some scholars/historians suggest that medieval carnival in Europe may have had its roots in pre-Roman and Roman pagan rites and in Lupercalia and Saturnalia. I may in future look at Sardinian carnival in Mamoiada in Nuoro, it also has many connections - - symbolic and others - to Skyrian carnival but I have no historical connection or documentation of yet (Steven Feld has this festival on his dvd). In terms of historical sources: The oldest documented account of Skyrian carnival appears in 1835 by Fiedler who mentions dances and masqueraders, but makes no reference to the belled quasi goat masqueraders Yeri, or their accompanying Koreles or Frangi. Fiedler wrote a detailed account of Skyrian carnival in his book, Reise d|rch alle Theolle des Kvnigreiches: Greichenland (Leipzig 1840). This is a significant witnessing of the event since he arrived on the eve of carnival in 1835. It is local historians and archaeologists below who first document the carnival of Skyrian belled masqueraders of Yeri and Korelles. However, this doesnt mean that they did not exist beforehand. On a more speculative on my part based on some historical indications, Skyrian carnival in its present form may have existed much earlier. The Skyrian local historian, Papageorgiou, wrote a detailed article on carnival in response to the inaccuracies in the archaeologists Dawkins (1904/05) and Lawsons (1899/1900) description of the event. He drew upon his personal experience, many times as a child observing the masqueraders, and as a youth becoming part of their troupes, I had the opportunity to observe in all detail the happenings (1910:35). Papageorgiou was about 51 years old at the time of writing his historical monograph in 1901. Subsequently, the carnival of Yeri may have existed in the late eighteenth century Dawkins, Richard 1904/05 A Visit To Skyros. Annual of the British School at Athens vol. XI [9]:72-80. Lawson, J. C. 1899/1900 A Beast-dance in Scyros. Annual of the British School at Athens VI [6]:125-27 Papageorgiou, Dimitri 1910 E Apokreo en Skyro. [Carnival in Skyros]. Laografia vol. B [2]: 35-47. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:30:56 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Word article/artists/internet "It doesn't go very well. It dumbs it down. It breaks my heart that it's the hardest thing about this job for me. It takes up a lot of space to explain things correctly. Condensing it down over simplifies it, it doesn't bother other people but it does bother me. I find it difficult when they put quotations around things you didn't say that have been edited and the point has been missed" - --------------------------------------------------------------- I find this article to be very interesting in what Joni says and how everyone here has responded to it. It has caused so much discussion! What a great thing man! I didn't have a problem with her seeming arrogant or anything of that nature. I do think she says some strange things but from reading articles/interviews/and things from books/hearing in between songs banter, she's always been a little out there! Better that than boring if you ask me. Now a lot of you said you didn't agree with something she said and I'm sure all of us don't agree with some things Joni says/does in general. It's all subjective really. But my question is, can you enjoy the music without liking the person from what you know? Sure, we never really know what an artist is really like as we don't see them on a day-to-day basis but you get an idea--or more or less a glimpse of how they come across. Now I'm not accusing anyone here of not liking Joni as a person or saying I don't like her as a person of what I know......it's all hypothetical here. I'm just asking, can you make a separation between the person and the music? Someone on the list mentioned this here earlier. And if you can make the separation, can you like the music and hate the person or certain things about the person? I say yes. I can tell that the Who is one of my favorite bands. I love them and listen to them a great deal. However, I really don't like Pete Townshend as a person from what I have read---from interviews, articles, his online blog. In fact, usually he irritates me a great deal. He either makes up things or moans about something ridiculous or contradicts himself to the point where at the beginning of the interview he says one thing and at the end he says the exact opposite! But I admire him as a musician, writer, and guitarist (not so much as a singer, leave that to Roger Daltrey Pete). Now once again I'm not trying to imply that I'm bashing Joni or anything like that (I find her very interesting and the things she says are even more interesting if not sometimes puzzling to me--she sure has her own way of thinking). Anyway, speaking of Pete Townshend, and trying to get to what my original point was going to be with that quoted paragraph from the article.....Joni seems to think she needs to explain everything because some people don't understand, whether that be because the media says so or fans just believe something else or whatever it is. Well instead of trying to explain in interviews which she says she doesn't enjoy doing, wouldn't it be interesting if Joni started her own online blog? Pete Townshend has one where he has posted stories he writes, what's going on during the Who tour, him and his girlfriend Rachel Fuller's adventures, thoughts of the day, etc etc. Joni sure seems to have a lot to say and instead of having to endure interviews trying to clarify things that can never be cleared up or instead of being misquoted or misrepresented, she could do it herself. I don't know how she is with the internet (I think I may have read, she doesn't use it? But I also read somewhere that said she wanted to maybe set up a website where she could put up an album or new songs without a record company...so who really knows?) but I for one think it'd be interesting. It'd be Joni the way she wants it. The right people would hear and it really helps establish more of a connection with fans and the rest of the world. And as much as I dissed Pete Townshend earlier, I think he has the right idea with a blog like that. I mean come on man, if Joni had a blog you know you'd read it. So anybody have Joni's number where I can contact her about my idea for her? LOL. I'll even offer to set up her website. No problem! - -Monika P.S. I thought it was really funny when she said at the end she wasn't a druggie long enough. She can be very funny when she wants to be.


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:34:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: NJC Re: WORD article Is that the closing music in the film? It literally left me speechless and motionless - beautiful. Speaking of film, I just got through with "The Prestige" - quite an interesting flick. Bob NP: Peter Gabriel, "Only Us" - --------------------------------- Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:42:15 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Joni travels Well I've got another trivial story about other people in my car with Joni in my cd player. This weekend my friend who moved two hours away came for a visit and crashed at my house. Well we picked up a friend of hers (a male) to come along with us before we headed out later that night to meet up with more friends. I drove (which I do prefer driving but I did ask her friend if he would drive because I wanted to save on gas but he wanted me to drive....and as it turns out I should have followed my gut...I got my first speeding ticket that day!) so I got to play my music and all. The first album I put on right after we picked him up was THOSL (still love it by the way). At about "Don't Interrupt the Sorrow" he yawned and said, "this is the kind of music that would be good to put you to sleep to." I thought that was very, very rude. I have been in cars where I had a friend or a friend of a friend blasting horrendous drums/bass combo/beats (no melody whatsoever) with some guy rapping about his bitches, his hoes, and his "dough" and I never said a word. Sure my thoughts were different and I wanted to punch myself in the face but I didn't criticize the music or anything like that. I was just a passenger and had enough courtesy to bare it as it should be. I just don't have luck with boys listening to Joni in my car man! And as it turns out, he kind of irritated me the whole day. I didn't say anything to him as I didn't want to ruin anyone's time but I have to admit I was a bit moody until later in the night when we met up with our other friends (he later irritated me again with too much drama on his part and freaking out for no reason whatsoever). - -Monika, one who can't play Joni Mitchell in her own car without someone stopping it or saying it bores them basically.......


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