From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #453 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, November 29 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 453 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Urge for Going [Ingrid Lochrenberg ] Re: NJC: mainc depression [Ingrid Lochrenberg ] Re: New Blue, sjc [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: New Blue, sjc [Michael Flaherty ] Re: New Blue, sjc [Catherine McKay ] Re: njc, Amma and "Darshan, The Embrace" ["Lori Fye" ] Re: war, njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: New Blue, sjc [Victor Johnson ] Jimmy Carter, njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Urge for Going ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: njc, the Ganga Line [Victor Johnson ] War, njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Soldiers (vljc) [] Soldiers (njc) [] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:42:43 -0800 (PST) From: Ingrid Lochrenberg Subject: Re: Urge for Going you are either a wolf or a bear, it is entirely up to you. - ----- Original Message ---- From: "Bob.Muller@Fluor.com" To: J Kendel Johnson Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 11:55:27 AM Subject: Re: Urge for Going Sure - it comes from the CSN box set that came out a couple of years ago. I don't have the full box but Kakki shared a couple of tracks with me, the studio recording of UFG and an alternate take of Woodstock (that was very similar to what got released) as well as a beautiful version of Stills singing "Blackbird". If you're a CSN fan this would be a must-have collection, and it's been out long enough now that it's available for half the original price. Bob NP: Thelonius Monk, "Functional" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:01:03 -0800 (PST) From: Ingrid Lochrenberg Subject: Re: NJC: mainc depression I think i can safely say that you are completely staright, which was a rather fascinating and admirable quality in this south african woman, who is now writing her board exams in london(she was a practising family laywer here).But she got so nervous- i suppose of all the men aroudn her, that she started utilising the internet solely to procure tarnquilisers. it seemed this was a full-time occupation. however, at this clinic she recoeverd within days. it's incredible how healing it can be to be with fellow brethen. i was hoping she would come back to soth africa, with all my might, as she is so very clever and stimulating, but I think she' lost to norway. she had Finnish boyfriend once, and kept on declering with that Finnish is finished. i suppose she found some resolvement in her soul. But she will very likely come back here- she loves cape town, and there are now so many finish and german people here. the other day in Pick n Pay I was sure I was seeing ghosts. well, not entirely sure. - ----- Original Message ---- From: "missblux@googlemail.com" To: Ingrid Lochrenberg Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 3:45:17 PM Subject: Re: NJC: mainc depression I think I can appreciate the comment to the extent that if you say that you are paranoid about your intellectually challenged psychiatrist, then either you are suffering from clinical paranoia, or you have an intellectually challenged psychiatrist. Given what you have told us about yourself, both things seem likely... I think psychiatrists must sometimes have a hard time, because they more or less have to play God with other people, and judge their behaviour. It's a huge responsibility, and ideally would require someone with more than average intellectual capabilities I think. I saw a program about people who hear voices, of various sorts. They talked to religious people who claimed to hear the voice of God, and to novelists who claimed their novels wrote themselves, or that the persons in their stories spoke to them. These people were considered sane. Then they spoke to psychiatric patients, people with schizophrenia and psychoses, who heard voices too. I am not sure how they ended up drawing the comparison, but the interesting thing was that there were psychiatrists that said they had started listening to what the patients said these voices were telling them; and they thought they could find clues to what was going on in the person's life that way. I thought that was interesting. NO, I didn't know about the the new bill in SA, but I have been there many years ago, and I remember it was very violent. I don't know if you know that there are many gay people on the list? I'm not a lesbian, but it is weird how I keep making friends with gays and lesbians, and how all sorts of things that I like are popular with them too. I was really surprised when I joined the list and found out that Joni has a lot of gay followers. Weird, its almost as if I am a sexual minority here... Ok I have to go, I need to finish what I'm writing... Take care! Bene On 11/28/06, Ingrid Lochrenberg wrote: > > And luckily i've had the presence of mind to tell a good psychiatrist whom > I'm seeing today that I'm paranoid about my psychitrist, who has been > communicating with the alternative one on my landscape, also a woman, and > that they've decided that I must keep going back to my ex-current one, who > I've decided and told the other , is intellectually challenged, which I > assure you she is. > > Anway, Bene, I'm sure that you can appreciate a comment like this. Not > vereyone, as we know, has this capacity.For the first time in my lufe(when > survival is at stake one becoes desperate) I've pointed this out to > someone.But then so are so many people in this society I partake of. one > can only cope if one has a substantial sense of humour, and some Germans on > the radio who display this remarkeable insightful quality..that is now > aprtfrom the genuinely sensitive DJ's one finds among the south african > males and females. As you might have heard ( but I am sure you haven't) they > have today in this country passed the civil unions bill, which are aimed at > the rather large portion of gay and lesbian people in this countri. in cape > Town, most people that are vaguely sensitive are gay, belive it or not. i > suppose this means about 90% of the popultaion, over here.(we live in a > seriosuly dangerous country) > > love! > ingrid > > > > ----- Original Message - ---- > From: "missblux@googlemail.com" > To: Joni LIST > Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:08:11 PM > Subject: SJC Leonard Cohen film (and some Nick Cave... (& Nephew!) ) > > > Hello all....unknown Jonilisteners, Jonilurkers and the ones I know! > > I just came back from watching the film on Leonard Cohen, it was very > enjoyable. Has anyone seen it...? > > It opened with Nick Cave, who is even more my darling after I saw him > in concert in Germany last week. > > That is weird, because my friend and I weren't actually totally swept > away with that concert. We were somewhat awe-struck, but... A year > ago, I went with the same friend to a concert in Cologne, with a > Danish band called Nephew. The venue was small, Nephew totally unknown > in Germany, and we got in for free. But we had a PARTY! The room was > teaming, and we danced and sang along, and leaving the venue we were > shouting and dancing and totally ecstatic, and my friend had never > heard them before but he loved them. We went to his local pub > afterwards, and I think my mantra for the night, which I shouted every > five minutes, was "We should have invited them for a beer!" > > Walking away from Nick Cave, who performed in a proper concert hall, > almost sold out, and at really expensive prices, I knew one of us > would say, actually, Nephew was more fun. And I knew I'd agree and > disagree at the same time. He has a kind of grandeur which is > impressive and touching at the same time and which also shines through > in the Cohen film. > > The film has some great acts in it, Rufus Wainwright and Antony > impressed me a lot, and some older Canadian female singers I'd never > heard of before. It was great because whenever they show anything > about music on TV it's mostly for the glamour, and it's > attention-seeking posers with botoxed lips and sleak clothes and hair > that makes them tilt their heads in funny angles. This film is full of > humans who are there to make art and first of all rever someone else > than themselves. Now that is nice for a change! > > No Joni references (how dare they!), but Cohen said something that > made me think about our discussions about Dylan and Joni. He said when > he came to New York as a young man and met the 'market' there, he > noticed that the American poets had more grand visions about > themselves and the world. Because they were Americans, the somehow > expected that they would be able to change the world. The Canadians, > he said, were more humble. > > I don't think this sums up the mystery of why everyone knows Dylan, > but not Joni. But then maybe it does, anyway. I think with her, it's > because she sings about personal experiences, and people at that time > were so much into changing society (damn in what Joni song does the > word society occur? I hear it ringing in my ear right now, just > ...society!) I almost get the impression that introspection was only > acceptable if the point was to break down patriarchal patterns that > would make you support the capitalist society. Not that many people > would admit that 'all I really want to do right now is find another > lover'. But don't we all know the feeling! > > Maybe I should add that I was born in 1965, so it's not like I never > saw a hippie... or a peace-march. > > That's all for today, except if any of you Cave-men and women came to > the end of this email I'd like to ask again if you've seen The > Proposition, and how you liked it...? > > Have a nice evening over there, and for those of you who are on my > side of the planet, the Africans and the Europeans, good night! > > Benedicte ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:33:49 +1100 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: New Blue, sjc I'm very confused. Everybody seems very excited at the prospect of the new expanded versions of a couple of albums to be released next year but when I expand my copy of Blue with songs that are more than appropriate for that album, some people get upset and tell me that I'm wrong. I don't get it. Joni's final decision for the tracks on Blue are obvious but, Hunter and Urge For Going were originally going to be on that album so, I don't see how it could be inappropriate to put them back. I see it as restoring the album or filling it out. Which other album would be more appropriate than Blue? I have always been a fan of the expanded album. I have many expanded versions of albums that I have collected over the years and just started doing it myself. I love Joni's albums as they are and I will never forget their original releases but I don't like having these bits and pieces lying around on their own. I want the full experience, how the album might have sounded if it weren't for the record company's restrictions. I probably agree with Joni's choice to dump those songs in favour of AIW and TLTISR. They are superior songs (then again, no Joni song is inferior to me) but who's to say that, if given the choice, Joni might have kept them all? It's supposed to be fun. I am a frustrated music producer and I am just playing because I can. I'm fulfilling a fantasy. I'm sure Joni's music conjures some sort of fantasy in each and every one of your heads. I only mentioned this hobby here in case anyone gets inspired by it and would like a copy of my CD cover. I never meant to cause any controversy or ill feelings. I only want to share what I do with like minded people. If people have a problem with what I do, I will keep it to myself. I have really felt that I have been under attack lately. I would never presume to tell anybody here what they can and can't do. The closest I would get is to suggest what I might do differently. I'm going through a tough time right now and feeling particularly friendless and vulnerable so I may be taking all this a bit too seriously but I certainly don't mean to upset anyone else. I get pleasure in knowing that I can contribute to this list and JMDL.com even though I don't have a lot to share. I don't even know if the artwork that I have uploaded is of any use to anyone or if I'm just wasting my time and bandwidth. My apologies if I have upset anyone. Mark in Sydney NP The Times of Harvey Milk - Mark Isham On 29/11/2006, at 6:13 AM, Michael Flaherty wrote: > >But word came down > before many reels were produced that Joni had decided to recall the > master tape and substitute two new songs > > I think there's more of a misunderstanding than an argument here. No > one's arguing against anyone listening to anything, nor that two other > songs were almost on the album. > > The bottom line: the above states the fact very simply: "Joni > decided", and therefore, Joni's intention. > > Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:03:40 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: New Blue, sjc >My apologies if I have upset anyone. You haven't upset anyone (or at least anyone who has posted). I'm 100% certain of that. Actually, beyond the unintentionally hurt feelings, I've found this conversation interesting BECAUSE of the differences--what I find interesting is the choices we make. I prefer to stick to the originals and have extra tracks kept seperate (I'm hoping the new material on the new issues will all be on disc 2), while you and others prefer them mixed in. We all want to hear all of the available music, but HOW we listen to it is important to us. Casual music fans would find us all insane, I'm sure! :) Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:28:21 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: New Blue, sjc - --- Mark-Leon Thorne wrote: > I'm very confused. Everybody seems very excited at > the prospect of the > new expanded versions of a couple of albums to be > released next year > but when I expand my copy of Blue with songs that > are more than > appropriate for that album, some people get upset > and tell me that I'm > wrong. I don't get it. > I think it's fun. I also doubt that whatever Joni may have decided then was necessarily carved in stone. That was a decision she made at the time, maybe for a variety of reasons, one of which may have been time or track limitations on an LP. Often when an album is remastered, extra tracks are included. These could be tracks that didn't make it the first time around (for whatever reason) or demo versions. If "Blue" were to be remastered or re-whatevered, you never know - it could have additional tracks, including both "Urge" and "Hunter". "The Hissing" demos are great - quite different from the finished product and with songs that didn't make it to the finished product but landed elsewhere. It Joni decided to release these officially, I'd buy the album, even though I've already got the boot version. Joni even re-ordered her own songs when she brought out "Prairie Girl" and so on. It's great to have the original versions of albums, and maybe some of us remember it as a classic of our youth, but there's nothing really wrong with painting another starry night - it will never be exactly like the first one. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:45:56 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: njc, Amma and "Darshan, The Embrace" > One of the best memories EVER! > I'm sure that Amma would have been honored to have been a part of the > festivities that spontaneous night. She's probably the only person who can > top Ashara in the hugs department. I agree, on all counts! After sending my earlier post, I went to lunch and found myself thinking about The Ganja Line and how I was trying so hard to fall asleep that night but couldn't, for the laughter ... and that started me laughing all over again, 5 years later!! : D Lori Santa Rosa, CA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:46:59 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: war, njc > I wish we could show pies on this list. I wish we could THROW pies on this list! ; ) Lori Santa Rosa, CA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:00:39 -0500 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: New Blue, sjc > Casual music fans would > find us all insane, I'm sure! :) > > Michael Flaherty I'll second you on that (we can make it a jonilist rule like the man rules w/ Burt Reynolds and co.) Anyhow, at my university (Georgia State) the music school is separate from the rest of the campus and we're all pretty much together all the time, apart from the rest of the school and it is totally a different world. When I go to the main campus with the big general classroom building with all the business, psychology, history, polysci, etc...classes I don't have the same feeling I do at the music school where I know everybody understands me and knows what its like to be a musician. It's totally a way of life and not just a bunch of classes. I find this list is very much the same in the way that everybody is crazy about music. Then there's my friend Ray and I who are constantly quoting the Simpsons(among other jokes) and laughing seemingly nonstop though the average person probably doesn't find them nearly as funny as we do. Music and laughter are two things I certainly can't live without. Victor WP: Tom Waits- Bawlers again ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:01:56 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Jimmy Carter, njc > He is an example of integrity. He really is ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:04:39 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Urge for Going >UFG is one of my favorite Joni songs and I always covet a cover of it. Some of my favorites...Crosby/Nash, Erinn Brown, Seanachie (who put a great celtic/bagpipe on it). There are a couple I don't have yet but hopefully will get someday.> I probably have a few excellent ones from my joni tributes... someday I'll unearth them... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:07:30 -0500 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: njc, the Ganga Line On Nov 28, 2006, at 11:45 PM, Lori Fye wrote: > > I agree, on all counts! > > After sending my earlier post, I went to lunch and found myself > thinking > about The Ganja Line and how I was trying so hard to fall asleep > that night > but couldn't, for the laughter ... and that started me laughing all > over > again, 5 years later!! : D Just think, the 10 year reunion will be coming up in 5 years! We'll just have to descend on Ashara's living room armed with bottles of red wine. Victor, heading to bed NPIMH: Goodnight Irene, from the Tom Waits Orphans collection ( he had the right idea of what to do with all of those orphan types) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:16:54 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: War, njc Sherelle >I may feel strongly about issues but I'm more interested in finding common ground and ways we can all work together. I hope that makes sense.< makes sense to me... it will be our saving grace... it is why at this moment in time, I believe obama might be our best future hope... I think we are all very tired of this partisan battle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:18:05 -0800 From: Subject: Re: Soldiers (vljc) Hi Anne, you wrote: "Russ served in 'Nam and returned home to an indifferent (at best) country. He didn't go by choice - he was drafted. I know it still hurts to be made to feel like he should be ashamed of what he did. He's not. But he is ashamed of how some U.S. soldiers treated the Vietnamese, just as he is of the treatment of Iraqis." I had a number of friends, family, family friends and a few ex-boyfriends who went to Vietnam. Some were drafted, some enlisted (so as to have some modicum of choice in the matter) and some just had the motivation to want to serve their country. I know bad things happened then and now but it is not indicative of the majority who served, What upsets me is that I was in college toward the end of Vietnam and several vets had completed their service and were attending college just like me. They were looked at as freaks, I am sad to say, and very much ostracized. I was young and naive then and knew next to nothing but still my heart would break at how they were regarded. One particular friend who is like my brother was exposed to Agent Orange and has survived two kinds of cancer and has a bad heart. After 30 years of being ignored (all those who were exposed) the government finally recognized their true disabilities and they are being helped. I don't know what happened to some I knew. I remember going on a business trip to D.C. awhile back and making a point to visit the wall. I was just overcome there, crying. "I think back to Joni performing for soldiers at Fort Bragg. Even if she didn't agree with the politics, she gave the soldiers her music. I think that's a good example of "support the troops" - even if you don't agree with the administration's policies." I have always respected and admired Joni so much for her actions there. She was a Canadian, she could have not cared or maybe wanted to be "popular" but no, she put herself out for those soliders. "I vehemently oppose the war in Iraq and have (in word and deed) since before it began. But I have also volunteeered to be the moderator so that soldiers stationed there and their loved ones could communicate via real-time video/audio around Valentine's Day. I see no contradiction in that." There is no contradiction, Anne. Thank you for standing up for them. "I hope for an end to this war, but I'm afraid the darkest days are still ahead." I hope for an end soon and I pray that darkness will not prevail. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:38:46 -0800 From: Subject: Soldiers (njc) Smurf wrote facetiously about limo liberals and the lack of trust fund babies becoming soldiers. Hey I think people get yours and others' points but it is just not the whole answer and the stereotyping does get offensive on many levels to some people. There are just as many middle or upper class people who choose to join the military as those who are poor and without many opportunities. This is a fact one would know if one dealt with the military or read about the diversity of the troops. You are totally entitled to your opinion (which in a way, is more honest than some). Some just see history repeating itself where the criticism of soldiers becomes a mass mob sentiment and the next thing you know certain represenstatives who hold their finger up to the wind start saying certain things, i.e. Kerry and Rangel in the past few weeks, and the next thing you know funding and care or any attention for soldiers is being cut off and so on. That's why some people get upset at seeing the same old playbook that was played on people back in Vietnam. I don't mind individual opinions but I've seen how some opportunists make it into some kind of "mass movement" and the next thing you know a whole segment of Americans are being shut out. I know - wasting my breath. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #453 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------