From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #356 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, September 27 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 356 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Barangrill [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: (njc) Chicago Jazz Composers Collective concert ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Chomsky and Capitalism (njc) ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Re: sloppy writing NJC [Dflahm@aol.com] Why does Joni say "5" on "Carey"? ["anon anon" ] Re: sloppy writing NJC ["mike pritchard" ] Tangled up in "Blue" [Stewart.Simon@sunlife.com] Re: Why does Joni say "5" on "Carey"? [Em ] Re: Hi All (njC) LONG! ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: NJC price of gas [Victor Johnson ] Re: Tangled up in "Blue" [Michael Flaherty ] Tangled Up In Blue [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Tangled Up In Blue [Em ] New Joni interview ["Les Irvin" ] Re: New Joni interview - and an old one. [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] RE: Barangrill ["Hell" ] RE: sloppy writing NJC ["Hell" ] Re: New Joni interview [Scott Price ] Re: New Joni interview ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: New Joni interview [Chris Marshall ] Re: Cherokee Louise and Woodstock "the musical"... [Chris Marshall ] Re: New Joni interview - and an old one. [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Why does Joni say "5" on "Carey"? [Bob Muller ] Re: Cherokee Louise and Woodstock "the musical"... [Benedicte Nielsen ] Re: New Joni interview - and an old one. [Nuriel Tobias Subject: Barangrill Sorry to divert you all away from Cherokee Louise but something is bugging me. One of my favourite albums is For The Roses. I have always been baffled by the title of the track, Barangrill. I've never really understood what that means though, I have stuck with a guess all these years. My best guess is that it is a contraction of the words, Bar and grill. I've never seen that contraction before or since. Is this an Americanism that isn't used anywhere else or is it Joni's own cutesy language? Or does it mean something else entirely? Surely the contraction would be Bar 'n' Grill, no? "Hey, where's barangrill?" - Joni Mitchell. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 01:16:26 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: (njc) Chicago Jazz Composers Collective concert The old joke among my musical friends is if you mistakenly play a wrong note, intentionally play it again & call it jazz... :~} > Regarding 75 percent accuracy, you raise an interesting point, one which I've thought a lot about over the decades and feel very passionate about. I had a teacher in high-school summer arts camp who told me "There are no wrong notes in jazz." Unfortunately, I've been finding them regularly ever since. It's all about note choice. It's true that in a certain context ... free improvisation, for instance ... an environment can exist in which there are seemingly no wrong notes.< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:03:32 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Barangrill It's only usage is in this song. Like Siquomb and Sisotowbell, it is part of Joni's unique vocabulary. Bob NP: Natalie Merchant on WXYC - Joseph's show - sounds good J! - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 04:59:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Barangrill maybe "Barangrill" is a state of mind achieved at a bar and grill on a good night. Like when it gets really great, man. Even if you can't reach euphoria, it might at least be in sight. You can't always quite get to that state of mind. Takes just the right amount and mix of drinks, maybe powdery substances, good people in attendance, the right music...and just the right attitude on one's own part. A sort of optimism. Which so often gets dashed on the rocks as Janis Joplin described when talking about the the great Saturday Night Swindle. I forget where it is that she talks about that. Maybe its the Cavett interview. Maybe Barangrill is a memory of a beach bar somewhere, that she (Joni) keeps trying to get back to. In Coconut Grove, or similar? did she spend some time there? I'm just tossing out the ideas that came to mind, Mark, when I read your post. I don't know any of this to be the case. Em - --- Mark-Leon Thorne wrote: > Sorry to divert you all away from Cherokee Louise but something is > bugging me. One of my favourite albums is For The Roses. I have > always > been baffled by the title of the track, Barangrill. I've never really > > understood what that means though, I have stuck with a guess all > these > years. My best guess is that it is a contraction of the words, Bar > and > grill. I've never seen that contraction before or since. Is this an > Americanism that isn't used anywhere else or is it Joni's own cutesy > language? Or does it mean something else entirely? Surely the > contraction would be Bar 'n' Grill, no? > > "Hey, where's barangrill?" - Joni Mitchell. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:28:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: Chomsky and Capitalism (njc) The best way to clarify nuances about him is to quote him, not mission statements: To begin with, I think terms like "capitalism" and "socialism" have been so evacuated of any substantive meaning that I don't even like to use them. There's nothing remotely like capitalism in existence. To the extent there ever was, it had disappeared by the 1920s or '30s. Every industrial society is one form or another of state capitalism. But we'll use the term "capitalism," since that is more or less its present meaning. Well, what happened in the last 10-15 years is that capitalism underwent an enormous, murderously destructive catastrophe. There was a serious international crisis around 1980. Of the three major sectors of state capitalism -- the German-led European community, the Japan-based sector and the U.S.-based sector -- the German- and Japan-based sectors pulled out of the decline, but without regaining their previous rate of growth. The United States also pulled out, but in a very distorted fashion, with huge borrowing and very extensive state intervention.... The rest of the world didn't pull out, especially in the Third World. There was a very serious crisis, amounting to catastrophe, in Africa, parts of Asia within the Western system and Latin America. That's what's called the crisis of the South, and it's a catastrophe of capitalism. Now in the Second World of the Soviet Union's dominance, there was also economic collapse... a stagnation of the command economy system, which has even less to do with socialism than our system has to do with capitalism. This was combined with nationalist pressures for independence and social pressures attacking the tyrannical system, which by the early 1980s turned into the crisis that has now become the collapse of the Soviet Union. All this had little to do with Western policy, but primarily with internal problems and also the general crisis of debt to the West. And there was a crisis of Soviet production, though again not as severe as in the Third World. This is a victory for the West in the Cold War, but that outcome was never seriously in doubt if you look at the relative economic and other forces. Chomsky: The victory of the West in the Cold War is combined with both this enormous catastrophe of capitalism, and with the move toward one kind or another of state-interventionist forms. As an example, the Reagan-Bush administrations are the most protectionist since World War II, doubling the percentage of imports subject to various forms of restriction. emember that the Reagan policies were proposed by Carter, who didn't have the muscle to push them through. Carter proposed essentially the military buildup that Reagan carried through, except that Reagan escalated it more rapidly in the beginning and leveled it off later. The Carter administration also proposed to attack welfare spending and the social support system for the poorer sectors, which the Reagan administration then carried through with bipartisan support. What these policies amounted to is turning the state, even more than before, into a welfare state for the rich: a much more interventionist state that pours public resources into high-technology industry and distributes resources away from the poor, combined with attacks on labor and civil rights. It's objectively a sound policy, I believe, for the privileged and powerful in an internationally complicated environment. They've internationalized capital to take advantage of cheap labor abroad, and intensified the class war that business has always waged against labor and the disadvantaged. Since nobody has an alternative, this system will doubtless continue. The same applies to fiscal policies, which are driving the United States itself toward a country with a Third World look in infrastructure, services, the disgraceful state of health and mortality standards -- a two-tiered society with enormous wealth and privilege amidst poverty and suffering. It's not like Brazil, because it's a wealthier society -- but fundamentally of the same type, created with bipartisan agreement. kbhla@sbcglobal.net wrote: > Hey Jerry, > >> Well, being a communist means belonging to a particular party or >> movement, >> which he is not, or proving that he he has secretly supported communist >> countries. As for equating communism with socialism, that's another >> right >> wing ploy. > > Look, I am truly trying to understand all the nuances here. He is > affiliated with IWW whose mission statement also says: > > "It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with > capitalism. > The army of production must be organized, not only for everyday struggle > with capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall > have > been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure > of > the new society within the shell of the old." ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 2006 13:55:16 +0100 From: Benedicte Nielsen Subject: Cherokee Louise and Woodstock "the musical"... Hi, I've been away and am glad you are still discussing Joni's late work! Like Bob, I've played Travelogue again and tried to listen with an open mind. Doesn't the whole discussion boil down to the fact that some of us have prejudices against grand orchestrations? It's like with musicals, many of them are full of great and well-written songs, but he whole musical setting I just find boring and phony and bourgeois and a waste of time. I'ts not because of the size of things, because I don't feel the same way about opera (bourgeois, but not boring). BSN works well for me; and I think that is because these jazz standards are written for that type of setting. As for Tlog, the things I like are the things I like about other JM records: the honest intimacy of her voice, and in terms of the musicians, Wayne Shorter's saxophone which has that intimate feel too - which is somehow enhanced by the way her voice sometimes swings like a saxophone. Another point about what is suitable: doesn't it seem like a bit of a contradiction to anyone that Woodstock, of all songs, is presented in this grand orchestration? I mean, "I'm gonna join a rock'n roll band" Sounds like "Woodstock - The Musical!!"? AM listening to Tlog right now, and of course it's great, great musicians etc. I need to play it more (if only I could skip certain songs). But, well, it's a bit like the discussion of her paintings. Nothing (neither her paintings nor TLog!) has such a unique feel to me as Hejira (the album) does, the guitarplaying and all. It's not that I expect her to keep inventing new tunings (I don't even know what open tunings are) or create a new school of painting that others will try to imitate, but It's just that she is one of the greatest female guitarists, not one of the greatest big band composers, not one of the greatest painters. She's a great artist, so msot things she touches will come out great, but not necessarily world-class. Well I don't know if anyone gets what I am trying to say. I better stop! "Hejira", the song, in the TLog version, is quite beautiful in it's way of being different from the original. But again, it's the saxophone, not the violins! When did JM ever sing anything to us that had the sound of such sugar-pretty violins??? OK enough for today, I just moved and have loads to do. Take care all! Benedicte In another Cambridge UK house NP slouching towards Bethlehem, TLog (hope it stops soon though, and jumps to the Chinese Cafe or Love) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:28:26 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Cherokee Louise and Woodstock "the musical"... Perhaps in part, but I think that's an oversimplification. One of my favorite records growing up was in my parent's collection - Music from MGM musicals; An American In Paris, Slaughter On Tenth Avenue, Lilli & The Puppets, all of which were heavily orchestrated but I was just blown away by them. When Harry Nilsson came out with "A Touch Of Scmilsson In The Night" I loved it, even though I was in full-blown classic/southern rock mode at the time. Over the last couple of years I've attended several Greenville Symphony events and have really enjoyed seeing and hearing the orchestra. I don't think my dissatisfaction with Tlog has a lot to do with any prejudice against grand orchestrations. As I cited in my re-listening of Cherokee Louise, a portion of it worked but the overpowering of the orchestra took over at the expense of what I think is a tender song. It could have done with a WHOLE lot more swing; as it is, it don't mean a thing. "I Wish I Were In Love Again" comes close. Of course - it's the same case I was making with Cherokee Louise. This mismatching problem also applies to: Otis & Marlena For The Roses Trouble Child Just Like This Train Sex Kills Refuge Of The Roads The Last Time I Saw Richard Borderline With others, Dawntreader being the best example, the orchestration brings out the depth of the song that it's original production did not. The lyrics in the song set the scene for expansive musical colors. The balance of the tracks don't stand out as this kind of mismatch but by the same token the orchestrations don't illuminate anything about them musically or lyrically. They don't fail as badly as the ones listed above but they don't really succeed on any level either. Bob NP: Elvis C, "The Angels Wanna Wear My Red Shoes" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:41:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: Cherokee Louise and Woodstock "the musical"... Benedicte Nielsen wrote: > Doesn't the whole discussion boil down to the fact that some of us have > prejudices against grand orchestrations? I think it is more of appropriate grand orchestrations, at least for me. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 2006 14:50:05 +0100 From: Benedicte Nielsen Subject: Re: Cherokee Louise and Woodstock "the musical"... Bob.Muller@Fluor.com said: >It could have done with a WHOLE lot more swing; as it is, it don't mean a >thing. Well you alreadcy said NOTHING about this Cd says jazz to you. I found that was an overstatement...., but since it was not a political discussion I thought I'd better leave it there. Had it been political I would probably by now have calld you a traitor and a fascist! > >Of course - it's the same case I was making with Cherokee Louise. With Cherokee Louise, I think it's a different thing for me. I find it difficult to relate to any songs or films or whatever about childabuse, I guess its another prejudice of mine. It's so topical these days, and there are so many unaddressed issues... Plus, she is an old woman now, and it feels odd that she is singing about her childhood. I don't know.... This >mismatching problem also applies to: > >Otis & Marlena >For The Roses >Trouble Child >Just Like This Train >Sex Kills >Refuge Of The Roads >The Last Time I Saw Richard >Borderline > I'd take Refuge of the Roads and The Last time I saw Richard off the list because they are among my favourites. Anything that has a male choir on it I'd add to the list, God Must Be a Boogieman would be right on top. >With others, Dawntreader being the best example, the orchestration brings >out the depth of the song that it's original production did not. The >lyrics in the song set the scene for expansive musical colors. > I'll have to listen to that one again. >The balance of the tracks don't stand out as this kind of mismatch but by >the same token the orchestrations don't illuminate anything about them >musically or lyrically. However, the sax is good....! Benedicte ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:21:05 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Cherokee Louise and Woodstock "the musical"... LOL - yes, I'm sure that many think that's the case. When I originally reviewed T'log back in '02 someone told me that I had an "axe to grind" with Joni. Yes indeed, if only it wasn't so badly buried in the mix. Same goes for the late great Billy Preston's wicked organ riffs in "You Dream Flat Tires". Bob NP: Dave Brubeck, "Blue Rondo a la Turk" (now THIS swings) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:27:51 +0000 From: waytoblue@comcast.net Subject: Re: Regina Spektor njc I went to visit my friend Holley this past weekend in Augusta and one of her daughters had a Regina Spektor cd lying on her bed. When I saw it, I brought in the other room and mentioned I had ridden on the Amtrak train with her. They were like, "Oh my God! You were riding on the train with Regina Spektor," as if it was the most awesome thing in the world. I have to admit I had a much less enthusiastic response to her...more along the lines of what Paz said. Apparently though, they had been listening to her a lot and played one of her songs on the cdplayer for me which didn't really blow me away. Speaking of trains, I imagine our trip would have been even more exciting if our train had derailed like the one the Nationals were on this past weekend. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:52:22 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Andeemac2006 Subject: NJC price of gas Bo----ks!!!!! nobody is going to persude me that all this good news is a coincedence, and that it happens to coincide with the elections in the USA, Cheney and the Oil companies are at one with each other, Why cant people see the Rove Bush Cheney propaganda machine at work??? Its like a Republican woman was preaching at some convention on C Span and she started by saying that ----- the main body of her speech was going to be about "The most Important Issue of the up and coming elections, "the war on Terror" for this is what the American people are interested in!!! and you know if they say this enough people will begin to repeat it!!! When so many people live from pay check to pay check, How can The war on Terror be the most important thing surley the Finances of the working man and his family is the Most Important issue, When its staring them in the face, what percentage of the American people died at 9/11 what less than 1% a lot less than 1% !!! and yet we are being told that at any moment hundreds of thousands of Americans could be struck down by Al Queda, what nonsense !!!!!!!!!!! utter nonsense, with all the added security at Airports and scrutineering of Passenger lists 9/11 wont hapen again in my Lifetime. They have no Aircraft of there own they dont have landing ships for Troops, so where is this danger coming from. The population of America is over 200 million, and in reality most of these people get up every day not thinking anything about " The war on Terror" and in truth most dont care about the "Poor Iraq people " in any way, any more than they care about the people in Darfurr in Sudan No this is the 10% of American people weaving there propaganda Machine at the Voters, and dam it! they succed every time. Its like in Vegas the Democrat Governer candidate has been accused by the Republican candidate of being Miss Taxation 2006 all she does is tax you, showing bad Pictures of her in a bad light, and the Demcratic Candidate sits on her hands saying " I will not lower myself to this level of Canvasing for votes, and of Course the Republican candiate is winning by 9% at the moment. The Republican Propaganda Machine knows exactly what buttons to push, to get votes, all I have to say is "Viva Bill Clinton " if every Demcratic Senator or Govenor spoke like he did on Fox News the other night, things could be different, especially the bit about " that smirk on your face " Its about time Democrats started to compete against there vitriol. My god where has all of G W bush's Political embarrasments of Jan, Feb, March, April, May gone, does the Democratic party have any theme to this up and coming elections at all ??? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:53:30 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: sloppy writing NJC I would be suspicious of an editor/headline writer, rather than the reporter who wrote the article, Mike. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:56:40 -0400 From: "anon anon" Subject: Why does Joni say "5" on "Carey"? Does anoyne have any ideas about why Joni said the number "5" at the beginning of "Carey"? Is she counting the beat? It seems strange that soemone as perfectionist and unspontaneous as joni would allow that to be on an album... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:23:03 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: sloppy writing NJC Yes, I guess so. Sloppy of me to have been so imprecise. Thanks for pointing that out. mike in bcn ----- Original Message ----- From: Dflahm@aol.com To: ink08@hotmail.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:53 PM Subject: Re: sloppy writing NJC I would be suspicious of an editor/headline writer, rather than the reporter who wrote the article, Mike. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:37:10 -0400 From: Stewart.Simon@sunlife.com Subject: Tangled up in "Blue" Is there a link between this Dylan masterpiece and Joni Mitchell (besides the "Blue" reference)? I was reading something that implied there was but I thought this song was about Dylan's breakup with his wife. Anyone know the details? - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary , confidential and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and erase this e-mail message immediately. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:06:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Why does Joni say "5" on "Carey"? I guess different people see Joni in different lights. I don't see her as perfectionist and unspontaneous - at all. Especially after "Blue". Lots of flies in the buttermilk. Which gives it extra texture and a bit of protein, maybe. Em - --- anon anon wrote: > Does anoyne have any ideas about why Joni said the number "5" > at the > beginning of "Carey"? Is she counting the beat? It seems strange that > > soemone as perfectionist and unspontaneous as joni would allow that > to be on > an album... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:08:10 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Hi All (njC) LONG! Paz. it was an emotional experience for me too and I don't even live there! The kind of win the Saints got was so needed for the people of New Orleans. I didn't know our Washington Post guy Kornheiser is a commentator for ESPN now. That's the nicest I've ever seen him in my life! There is hope! It seems New Orleans really affected him emotionally. That's good. I wish him well. No offense to the other team but I rooted for the Saints that night. I hope this is just the beginning of resurrection for the city but most of all for the lower 9th ward. The one thing I liked about that guy dressed up like the cheerleader is that he was very passionate about his music. You don't find that very often. I have a feeling he's going to make his way down to New Orleans to visit and I know you will make sure he's well taken care of. Love, Sherelle Paz wrote; > >Thanks for the lovely comments. > >The cheerleader was a gas and I am glad we spoke to him cause he was very >taken with New Orleans and our music and who would have known but just >looking at him and thinking that it was Smurph stalking us or some other >fantasy. The scary part is I gave him my card and told him to call me next >time in his in New Orleans. I am going to watch for hm in Sing Out Mag. > >It was such an emotional experience to watch on TV. I love to watch my >Saints play football and it was nice to see the dome in a positive light >again. > >Sorry for all the posts tonight but I am chatty! > >Love > >Paz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:55:52 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: NJC price of gas > and yet we are being told that at any moment hundreds of thousands > of Americans could be struck down by Al Queda, what > nonsense !!!!!!!!!!! utter nonsense, with all the added security at > Airports and scrutineering of Passenger lists 9/11 wont hapen again > in my Lifetime. They have no Aircraft of there own they dont have > landing ships for Troops, so where is this danger coming from. They didn't have their own aircrafts in 2001 either but were still able to pull off 9/11....Anyway, its naive to think another attack couldn't happen. These terrorists aren't stupid. People probably said the same thing before the trade towers attack...that it would be nonsense to think anyone would fly airplanes into buildings in the United States. It was because of attitudes like this that the attacks were able to take place. Regardless of how you feel about President Bush, the threat of another Al Qaida attack is real and to pretend that it couldn't happen seems a bit foolish. > The population of America is over 200 million, and in reality most > of these people get up every day not thinking anything about " The > war on Terror" and in truth most dont care about the "Poor Iraq > people " in any way, any more than they care about the people in > Darfurr in Sudan To be more accurate, the population is pushing 300 million and I think it ludicrous that one person can attest to speak for hundreds of millions of people, let alone to profess to know what they think and feel. Victor NP: Boortz show ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:10:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: Tangled up in "Blue" Stewart.Simon@sunlife.com wrote:Is there a link between this Dylan masterpiece and Joni Mitchell (besides the "Blue" reference)? I was reading something that implied there was but I thought this song was about Dylan's breakup with his wife. Anyone know the details? I've heard that the "Blue" reference intentionally invokes Joni's album, which, considering the subject matter, makes sense. While largly fictionalized, much of Blood on the Tracks is indeed about the breakup of his marriage--nothing is actually "about" Joni. Diehard Dylanites will no doubt have more details, but that's the cliffnote version. :) Michael Flaherty - --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:19:55 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Tangled Up In Blue Back in May of 2004 there was an article in The New York Observer titled "That Wild Mercury Sound: Tangled Up In Bob Again" - You have to register and pay $2.95 for the article, which I have not done, but here is a segment of it. Not sure who the author is, but he *thinks* that Dylan did indeed pull the title from Joni's album. Excerpt: "I think the title question is important. It has to do with something I think Mr. Dylan said to me in the course of that 1978 interview: I think he told me that he got the title of the song from a lost weekend he spent listening to Joni Mitchell's classic Blue album, which predated Blood on the Tracks by three years. In effect, Mr. Dylan had been tangled up in Blue before writing '"Tangled Up in Blue.'" And then there's the question of whether, even if he said it, he meant it. I don't know, it makes sense to me: There's a new kind of Dylan songwriting on Blood on the Tracks, one that he's described as a shift from the kind of '"unconscious"' songwriting of the Blonde on Blonde period to the more conscious artistry of '"Tangled Up in Blue," which plays with time schemes and rhyme schemes in a way Joni Mitchell does quite artfully when she doesn't tip over into self-parody. I'm not a big fan of "Blue," the Joni Mitchell song (my all-time Joni Mitchell fave is "Amelia"). Nonetheless, I could see Mr. Dylan getting rapt or wrapped up in Blue. End of excerpt. And so the mystery continues. Bob NP: Beck, "No Complaints" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:35:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Tangled Up In Blue makes sense. If its true then its kind of a nice homage to Joni. I never heard this theory before today. But a couple of times before joining this list and getting all "tangled up in Blue" myself, I'd thought of having the words "Tangled Up In Blue" tattoo'ed on my body. Never did it, but almost. So I am stimulated now, by this connection. It all swirls round. Also they must have been running in somewhat similar circles in the mid 70's, as Joni joined Dylan and Co on the earlier portions of the Rolling Thunder tour. I remember reading that he had some Martin D-45's custom made (or some such a thing) and gave them as gifts to some of his tourmates. Wondering if Joni got one of those. Em - --- Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > Back in May of 2004 there was an article in The New York Observer > titled > "That Wild Mercury Sound: Tangled Up In Bob Again" - You have to > register > and pay $2.95 for the article, which I have not done, but here is a > segment of it. Not sure who the author is, but he *thinks* that Dylan > did > indeed pull the title from Joni's album. > > Excerpt: > "I think the title question is important. It has to do with something > I > think Mr. Dylan said to me in the course of that 1978 interview: I > think > he told me that he got the title of the song from a lost weekend he > spent > listening to Joni Mitchell's classic Blue album, which predated Blood > on > the Tracks by three years. In effect, Mr. Dylan had been tangled up > in > Blue before writing '"Tangled Up in Blue.'" > > And then there's the question of whether, even if he said it, he > meant it. > I don't know, it makes sense to me: There's a new kind of Dylan > songwriting on Blood on the Tracks, one that he's described as a > shift > from the kind of '"unconscious"' songwriting of the Blonde on Blonde > period to the more conscious artistry of '"Tangled Up in Blue," which > > plays with time schemes and rhyme schemes in a way Joni Mitchell does > > quite artfully when she doesn't tip over into self-parody. I'm not a > big > fan of "Blue," the Joni Mitchell song (my all-time Joni Mitchell fave > is > "Amelia"). Nonetheless, I could see Mr. Dylan getting rapt or wrapped > up > in Blue. > End of excerpt. > And so the mystery continues. > Bob > NP: Beck, "No Complaints" > > > > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, > business-confidential and/or privileged material. > If you are not the intended recipient of this message you > are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, > dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken > in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received > this in error, please contact the sender and delete the > material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message > are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect > the views of the company. > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:37:22 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: New Joni interview Joni was interviewed on Monday by the Ottawa Citizen, the largest newspaper in Canada's capital. The theme of the conversation was the 30th anniversary of the release of Hejira. The story will be published on October 8 in the Citizen's Sunday Arts & Books section. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:19:13 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: New Joni interview - and an old one. That's some cool news, Les - I'm excited to read it. I'm glad that others think the 30th anniversary of the GREATEST ALBUM EVER RECORDED is a worthy subject of an interview and article. And hey, thanks for recently posting this 1968 interview: http://www.jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=1455 As I love early Joni I was enthralled with this one and want to bring it to the attention of whoever hasn't taken the time to read it yet. Bob NP: Eels, "Your Lucky Day In Hell" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 07:30:23 +1200 From: "Hell" Subject: RE: Barangrill Mark wrote: > Sorry to divert you all away from Cherokee Louise but something is > bugging me. One of my favourite albums is For The Roses. I have always > been baffled by the title of the track, Barangrill. I've never really > understood what that means though, I have stuck with a guess all these > years. My best guess is that it is a contraction of the words, Bar and > grill. I've never seen that contraction before or since. Is this an > Americanism that isn't used anywhere else or is it Joni's own cutesy > language? Or does it mean something else entirely? Surely the > contraction would be Bar 'n' Grill, no? I think this comes under the heading of "poetic license". The contraction would normally be Bar 'n' Grill, but I think Joni has written it as she has simply because it sounds more emotive. Keri Hulme, when writing about this kind of thing in the preface to The Bone People describes how she creates new words to give a more emotive feel. The example she uses is about colour, specifically bluegreen. In making it one word, she says it flows off the tongue better than blue-green, which sounds stunted. I don't have my copy available right now to transcribe the exact wording she uses, but it makes sense to me. Hell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 07:21:51 +1200 From: "Hell" Subject: RE: sloppy writing NJC Mike wrote: > "Bill Criminalizing Minor Abortions OK'd" - now there's a writer > who doesn't > know how to write clearly. His name is Jim Abrams and he works for the > Associated Press. Who is Bill? Why is he criminalizing these > minor abortions? > What is a minor abortion? Any of you copy writers or academics > out there have > any similar stuff. Happy Birthday to all (Victor, Bob, John). Apart from the "OK'd" bit, it makes sense to me - a bill has been passed that criminalizes abortions on minors, ie. women under a certain age. Although I agree that it could have been worded more clearly. Hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:12:35 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: New Joni interview At 11:37 AM 9/27/2006, Les Irvin wrote: >The theme was the 30th anniversary of the release of Hejira. Damn, dude, you sure know how to make a guy feel old! Has it really been 30 years? The pinnacle album from an unmatched catalog of a single artist. This one does and will stand the test of time. But 30 years??? :-) Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:17:53 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: New Joni interview I was just thinking this..."it will stand the test of time:....but about Court And Spark. I just finished listening to it in it's entirety. I thought...how ahead of her time Joni was...her musicianship...how incredible she really is. While listening this afternoon I did a lot of daydreaming about meeting her someday. I want her to know just how much she and her music has meant to me. In this daydream I would be so cool...calm and not be a bit pushy..just let her know what her music has meant to me...and then just walk away. UNLIKE some people on this list who would just be over the top with her in their approach...like Patti....and THAT woman from N. Little Rock. ;-) Bree >Damn, dude, you sure know how to make a guy feel old! Has it really been 30 >years? > >The pinnacle album from an unmatched catalog of a single artist. This one >does and will stand the test of time. But 30 years??? :-) > >Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:37:53 +0100 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: New Joni interview On 27 Sep 2006, at 22:17, Bree Mcdonough wrote: > I was just thinking this..."it will stand the test of time:....but > about Court And Spark. I just finished listening to it in it's > entirety. I thought...how ahead of her time Joni was...her > musicianship...how incredible she really is. It's funny how we all hear things differently: I love much of Court and Spark, but to me it's always been an album that yells "I was made in the 70s" from the rooftops. In contrast, Hejira and DJRD both seem to me to be utterly timeless, and could have been recorded yesterday were it not for the unfashionable status of lyrical, confessional music these days. - --Chris chrisATstryngs.com http://www.stryngs.com/ http://www.myspace.com/stryngs "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:45:15 +0100 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Cherokee Louise and Woodstock "the musical"... On 27 Sep 2006, at 15:21, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > Yes indeed, if only it wasn't so badly buried in the mix. I wish it was buried *more* in the mix But I'm sure people aren't interested in my opinions of Mr. Shorter's semi-random peeping noises throughout TLog. ;) - --Chris chrisATstryngs.com Stryngs - "Love and Other Vices" out now via:- http://www.stryngs.com/ http://www.myspace.com/stryngs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:21:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: New Joni interview Crazy how the past keeps walking out the door and not even saying goodbye. It colors our present images to an extent that allows us to believe it's real. Is it real? No, it isn't. But listening to Hejira...Sometimes it's like throwing away the past and jump into the now, and sometimes it's like throwing away the now and jump into the past. I was 8 years old when Hejira got released, and i was just so good at it back then - i knew exactly how to shove that goofy old past out the door and not look back. Nuri Scott Price wrote: Les Irvin wrote: "The theme was the 30th anniversary of the release of Hejira." Damn, dude, you sure know how to make a guy feel old! Has it really been 30 years? The pinnacle album from an unmatched catalog of a single artist. This one does and will stand the test of time. But 30 years??? :-)" - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2"/min or less. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:35:22 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: New Joni interview - and an old one. I read that 1968 interview... when asked: B: Is there any common theme? and Joni replies... In the early ones, love lost, I met a wandering Australian who really did me in. As a matter of fact he continued to be the theme for a lot of songs that I wrote. It's really difficult to write love found songs, I only have one and a half. I only have one really true love found song, and that's "The Dawn Treader." They are very difficult; they really take a lot of confidence,not only that you are in love, but that the other person is in love with you. Otherwise you are afraid to say all the things that you want to say, for fear of being made. It's a standard thing. You don't want to look foolish and commit yourself to all those things. So I didn't really, at that time, have very much. The way my head was working I didn't have very much to write about. I was sort of relatively contended. and now she has me wondering who that wandering Australian was? anyone know? Rosie in NJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:11:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Why does Joni say "5" on "Carey"? Does she? I don't hear it. I'm assuming you're talking about the version on Blue. Bob NP: Tony Malone, "Carey/Morning Morgantown" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 2006 00:42:24 +0100 From: Benedicte Nielsen Subject: Re: Cherokee Louise and Woodstock "the musical"... On Sep 27 2006, Chris Marshall wrote: >On 27 Sep 2006, at 15:21, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: >> Yes indeed, if only it wasn't so badly buried in the mix. > > I wish it was buried *more* in the mix > >But I'm sure people aren't interested in my opinions of Mr. Shorter's >semi-random peeping noises throughout TLog. ;) > >--Chris No! you can't just say that, you need to explain! I like the sax on Tlog but mainly because I liked it on BSN, and that album has been with my friend for a year now, so in a sense I only like it on TLog because it reminds me of BSN. So what _IS_ your problem with Shorter?? Bene ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:45:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Why does Joni say "5" on "Carey"? Me too, Bob. We are probably 5-challenged. That can be tested though. Just ask your wife to say "5" - and if you CAN'T hear it, well then - welcome to the Twilight Zone:) Nuri Bob Muller wrote: the number "5" at the beginning of "Carey"? > Does she? I don't hear it. I'm assuming you're talking about the version on Blue. Bob NP: Tony Malone, "Carey/Morning Morgantown" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:57:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: New Joni interview - and an old one. Rosie, I'm not too sure, but - Wasn't there an Australian we talked about several months ago, urggghhh, someone who sold a Joni-item (A hand-written lyric she dedicated to him, i think? a painting?) on Ebay, and he said how very close they were back then? It seems to me like he's the one...I think?...Remember him, guys? Nuri RoseMJoy@aol.com wrote: I read that 1968 interview... when asked: B: Is there any common theme? and Joni replies... In the early ones, love lost, I met a wandering Australian who really did me in. As a matter of fact he continued to be the theme for a lot of songs that I wrote. It's really difficult to write love found songs, I only have one and a half. I only have one really true love found song, and that's "The Dawn Treader." They are very difficult; they really take a lot of confidence,not only that you are in love, but that the other person is in love with you. Otherwise you are afraid to say all the things that you want to say, for fear of being made. It's a standard thing. You don't want to look foolish and commit yourself to all those things. So I didn't really, at that time, have very much. The way my head was working I didn't have very much to write about. I was sort of relatively contended. and now she has me wondering who that wandering Australian was? anyone know? Rosie in NJ - --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #356 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------