From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #343 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, September 19 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 343 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Order of Canada [Nuriel Tobias ] Brainy Joni Quotes ["Patti Parlette" ] NJC Whats the matter with voting Republican if your poor [Andeemac2006 <] Re: Order of Canada [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC Whats the matter with voting Republican if your poor [Jerry Nota] Re: njc, here's one for Smurf! [Smurf ] FW: New book *Millennium Folk: American Folk Music since the Sixties* [Pa] Bush At War. NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] RE: Bush At War. NJC ["bluejr@adelphia.net" ] Joni photo from 1998 NY Times ["Michael O'Malley" ] Re: NJC Re: JC on the wane [Smurf ] RE: Joni photo from 1998 NY Times ["patrick leader" ] NJC Polaris Music Prize winner, Final Fantasy ["Michael O'Malley" ] Re: Joni photo from 1998 NY Times ["Randy Remote" ] RE: The Times They are a Changin' - njc - ["patrick leader" ] Bush At War. NJC [Norma Jean Garza ] Paul Soles, Joni in TCE [Kate ] Re: Bush At War. NJC [Victor Johnson ] RE: Bush At War. Coulter crap NJC [Norma Jean Garza Subject: Re: Order of Canada Catherine wrote: "Here's a clip of Joni singing and being interviewed by Adrienne and Paul Soles on "Take 30": http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-580-3213/life_society/hippies/" Thank you so much for the link, Cath, it was lovely. Lovely, and i mean it. I'm not going to say a single thing about how Paul managed to twist something she said into a very disturbing "Happy songs by happy Joni" chat:) However, Is it me - or IS HE CONSTANTLY STARING AT HER BOOBS? Nuri - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2"/min or less. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:55:10 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: Brainy Joni Quotes Welcome Benedicte! It's a pleasure to meet you! You are shining as you reel us back in to Joni talk. (I am borrowing words from "Harry's House"....I do that a lot. I can't help myself. It's called JMOCD, or Joni Tourette's. It comes from listening to Joni from the beginning....her first album came out when I was in 9th grade and she has been with me ever since.) Please forgive the politics lately. In the end, it all comes down to Joni. You wrote: "When somebody posted a link to a site full of JM quotations, I noticed most comments were about how she felt about US politics, and she obviously has strong opinions; and most comments to her comments, on this list, were about politics. But actually, the one that I am still thinking about was the one where she said (something like) "to write a god song about heart-ache (or something similar..) you need to reach a moment of clarity, otherwise it's just moaning". I wonder if that is part of what is so appealing about her songs, that painfully gained insight...? Or again, is it just another one of those things...?" Oui, oui -- I thought that was a good one, too. Here it is: "You could write a song about some kind of emotional problem you are having, but it would not be a good song, in my eyes, until it went through a period of sensitivity to a moment of clarity. Without that moment of clarity to contribute to the song, it's just complaining." - -- Joni Mitchell Absoluement, Bene and Joni. That "painfully gained insight"...well put.....where something is lost and something is gained in living every day. This particular quote reminds me of what Joni said in the "Woman of Heart and Mind" documentary. She was talking about, gee I can't remember exactly, the creative process maybe? Or sand and grit and pain or something, and then you get the pearl out of the oyster.... or something like that? I can picture her talking and her impossibly gentle hands moving and her blonde hair..... Argh....shame on me for not having that memorized! Somebody "help me!" That's one of the beauties of this list. Someone will pop in the with the exact quote in a minute, I'll bet! Love, Patti P. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 10:25:21 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Andeemac2006 Subject: NJC Whats the matter with voting Republican if your poor "mike pritchard" Subject: What's the matter with voting Republican if you're poor? NJC "According to recent US census figures, since President Bush assumed power in 2000 poverty has risen by 7%, the proportion of those without healthcare has risen by 9%, and median household income has fallen by 3%. But where the poor are most numerous, it seems the Democrats are weakest. The 10 states with the lowest household median income, where people are least likely to have healthcare and most likely to live in poverty, all voted Republican in 2004." Hey I have to admit that this proves that the Democratic party are not focusing in on the really important issues. to hell with Iraq War on terror, Torture and the Geneva convention, they should be going to all these states and telling these people night and day, the facts above and say, "Do the Maths" sound familiar yes Mmm. I belive it would sink in, can you imagine the GOP saying these are lies in retort, and all the Democrats have to do is say " Do the maths" look at your pay slip in 2000 and look at it now !!and compare your bills today with 2000, are you worse of??? And In my Opinion, now is as good at time to launch a blitz on these same people advocating a National Health service, saying that every American child from birth would be covered by this plan!!!! and the Democratic party would raise the minimum wage. "Do the maths" we would focus on creating a more healthy life for the working man and his family in america. This is the most important issue. The pathetic Republicans are advocating in Nevada that they are the party of cutting taxes, Yes for the rich !!!!!! and even if they do resort to cutting taxes for the working class person, the Democrats will have got there way in a indirect way!! dont you think. Now is the time for the Democratic party to gamble for 2008, better to lose on a Democratic ticket than to be curtailing to a Republican one. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:27:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Order of Canada - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Catherine wrote: > "Here's a clip of Joni singing and being interviewed > by > Adrienne and Paul Soles on "Take 30": > http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-580-3213/life_society/hippies/" > > > Thank you so much for the link, Cath, it was > lovely. Lovely, and i mean it. > I'm not going to say a single thing about how Paul > managed to twist something she said into a very > disturbing "Happy songs by happy Joni" chat:) > However, > Is it me - or IS HE CONSTANTLY STARING AT HER > BOOBS? > > Nuri > Um well, that was back in 1967, when they had to dance a foot apart. No, that was 1957, so never mind. I decided to see whatever became of Paul Soles and came across this one - I had no idea that he was the voice of Peter Parker/Spiderman in the original Spiderman TV cartoon show ("Spiderman! Spiderman! Does whatever a spider can!" - they do NOT write lyrics like that anymore!: http://www.northernstars.ca/actorsstu/soles_paul.html Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:41:03 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: NJC Whats the matter with voting Republican if your poor An interesting recent article on this very topic. And with a tip of the hat to Chris Marshall, it is from the U.K. Guardian. Any journalist who starts with a quote from A Confederacy Of Dunces is world class in my view. What's the matter with voting Republican if you're poor? Low-income Americans don't necessarily vote in their own economic interests; but it doesn't mean they're patsies Gary Younge Monday September 18, 2006 The Guardian 'In a sense I have always felt something of a kinship with the coloured race because its position is the same as mine," says Ignatius J Reilly, the hopeless protagonist of John Kennedy Toole's A Confederacy of Dunces. "We both exist outside the inner realm of American society. Of course, my exile is voluntary. However, it is apparent that many of the Negroes wish to become active members of the American middle class. I cannot imagine why. I must admit that this desire on their part leads me to question their value judgments. However if they wish to join the bourgeoisie, it is really none of my business. They may seal their own doom." As any neocon will tell you, there is nothing quite so frustrating as trying to liberate people who just do not appreciate the freedom you have in store for them. Nor is there much joy in expressing solidarity with people who want nothing to do with you. The "historic" alliances that have been announced between workers, peasants, students, women and gays would indeed have changed history. Sadly, the vast majority were never truly forged. Nowhere does this contradiction seem more acute than in the fortunes of the Democratic party, which has stood with the professed aim of representing the economic interests of poorer Americans over the past 40 years. According to recent US census figures, since President Bush assumed power in 2000 poverty has risen by 7%, the proportion of those without healthcare has risen by 9%, and median household income has fallen by 3%. But where the poor are most numerous, it seems the Democrats are weakest. The 10 states with the lowest household median income, where people are least likely to have healthcare and most likely to live in poverty, all voted Republican in 2004. Not only are they poor, but they're getting poorer. The five states with the steepest falls in income backed Bush. Indeed, if anything the Democrats' base seems to be among the wealthy. The same census figures showed that seven of the 10 states with the highest median incomes voted Democrat, and citizens who lived in Democrat states were less likely to live in poverty and more likely to have health insurance. And these states are getting wealthier. The five with the sharpest increase in income all voted Democrat in 2004. Bill Clinton won in 1992 with the dictum "It's the economy, stupid". But what to make of a political culture where poor states elect the party that represents the interests of the rich and vice versa? This is not a new question but a perennially pertinent one, because it has shaped an understanding of US politics since the late 60s. It underpins the assumptions that send Bush clearing brush for the cameras and the reason why accusations that Kerry "looked French" resonate. In his book What's The Matter With Kansas?, Thomas Frank described the tendency of working-class people to vote Republican as a form of derangement. He said that the working class had been hoodwinked into voting against its economic interests by "values" issues such as abortion and gay rights. There were two main problems with this argument. First, it suggested that poor people are incapable of working out what's best for them. Second, it gave undue emphasis to economic interests, as if they should always take primacy at the ballot box. My guess is that Frank, along with many readers of this paper, vote against their economic interests when they vote for a government that will raise taxes and redistribute wealth. It doesn't follow that, because poor people also put different priorities (opposing gay marriage or abortion) with which we disagree ahead of financial wellbeing, we are principled and they are patsies. But there was, as it turned out, another flaw with Frank's book. The central premise on which it was written was debatable, if not debunkable. Last year Larry Bartels, a professor of politics and public affairs at Princeton, wrote a paper called: What's The Matter With What's The Matter With Kansas?. (It is a testament to the influence of Frank's work that those who seek to subvert its message must first subvert its title.) The white working class, insisted Bartels, hadn't abandoned the Democratic party, and neither their moral values nor their religion distracted them from their economic interests. Bartels's argument was not quite as devastating as he claimed (Frank's facts stand up if you assess class by educational attainment rather than income), but it undermined the key assumption that poor white people vote Republican. They don't. According to CNN polls, 63% per cent of those who earn less than $15,000 a year and 57% of those who earn between $15,000 and $30,000 voted Democrat. The poorer you are, the more likely you are to vote Democrat. So how are we to understand the fact that the poorest states voted for Bush? Soon after Bartels's paper came another by four academics, subtitled: Rich State, Poor State, Red State, Blue State, What's The Matter With Connecticut?. It revealed that rich people in poor states are more motivated to vote Republican, whereas in wealthier states there is a lower correlation between income and voting preference. In other words, thinking of the American political landscape in terms of different states (remember the map with the Democrat blue on the edges flanking a sea of Republican red?) hides the often far more important differences within states. So what's the matter with all these analyses? First of all they seem to step over a huge elephant in the room - namely race. There is a reason why we are only talking about white working-class voters: black people, regardless of income, overwhelmingly vote Democrat. Indeed, were it not for black people, the Democrats would have won the presidency only once, in 1964. That was the year President Lyndon Johnson signed the civil rights act, turned to an aide and said: "We have lost the south for a generation." We are well into the second generation now, and the racialised politics of the south seem to be influencing the rest of the country rather than the other way round. In other words there is a clear racial attachment that white voters have to the Republican party that does not override income but certainly qualifies it. No understanding of why so many of them vote Republican can examine class as though it is distinct from race. Second, they assume a greater class attachment to the Democrats than the party deserves. Unlike the Republicans, who openly lobby for the class interests of their supporters and deliver on them, Democrats do not promise substantial changes to the lives of ordinary working people in America and rarely deliver even on the symbolic ones. Which brings us to the final problem. The strongest correlation between income and voting is not whom you vote for but if you vote at all. The more you earn, the more likely you are to turn out. According to the census, 81.3% of those who earned $100,000 or more turned out in 2004; the figure for those who earned less than $20,000 was 48%. That's because the rich have something to vote for. They have two parties; the poor here have none. Ultimately, the question of what's the matter with Kansas or any other state must in no small part be answered by yet another one: what's the matter with Democrats? g.younge@guardian.co.uk > "mike pritchard" Subject: What's the matter with voting Republican if > you're poor? NJC > > "According to recent US census figures, since President Bush assumed > power > in 2000 poverty has risen by 7%, the proportion of those without > healthcare has > risen by 9%, and median household income has fallen by 3%. But where the > poor > are most numerous, it seems the Democrats are weakest. The 10 states with > the > lowest household median income, where people are least likely to have > healthcare and most likely to live in poverty, all voted Republican in > 2004." > > Hey I have to admit that this proves that the Democratic party are not > focusing in on the really important issues. to hell with Iraq War on > terror, Torture and the Geneva convention, they should be going to all > these states and telling these people night and day, the facts above and > say, "Do the Maths" sound familiar yes Mmm. I belive it would sink in, > can you imagine the GOP saying these are lies in retort, and all the > Democrats have to do is say " Do the maths" look at your pay slip in > 2000 and look at it now !!and compare your bills today with 2000, are you > worse of??? > And In my Opinion, now is as good at time to launch a blitz on these same > people advocating a National Health service, saying that every > American child from birth would be covered by this plan!!!! and the > Democratic party would raise the minimum wage. "Do the maths" we would > focus on creating a more healthy life for the working man and his family > in america. This is the most important issue. > The pathetic Republicans are advocating in Nevada that they are the party > of cutting taxes, Yes for the rich !!!!!! and even if they do resort to > cutting taxes for the working class person, the Democrats will have got > there way in a indirect way!! dont you think. Now is the time for the > Democratic party to gamble for 2008, better to lose on a Democratic > ticket than to be curtailing to a Republican one. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 10:52:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: njc, here's one for Smurf! Patti wrote: << Smurf, why don't you come up to my UConn kitchen and give your old buddy his just deserts? >> Maybe I should show up 'pregnant' in my Kitty Wells drag and claim the unborn child is his! Thanks for the laugh, Patti! --Smurf, a gay American since 1953 . - --------------------------------- Why keep checking for Mail? The all-new Yahoo! Mail shows you when there are new messages. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:00:21 -0400 From: Patti Witten Subject: FW: New book *Millennium Folk: American Folk Music since the Sixties* Saw this on another list. I don't know if Joni is mentioned in this book but I'd be quite shocked if her influence was not at least acknowledged. Patti - -- http://pattiwitten.com - ------ Forwarded Message > Hi all, > > I would like to plug my new book, which is (partly) an ethnographic account of > the contemporary folk scene--of course, lots of singer/songwriter related > discussion. It's called *Millennium Folk: American Folk Music since the > Sixties* and is published by The University of Georgia Press. There's a nice > blurb on the UGA press website for anyone interested. It's available at Amazon > and countless other bookstores on- and offline. > I would imagine that a number of people who contributed to my research are > also subscribers to this list. What can I say...Thanks. > > Best, > Tom Gruning - ------ End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:11:16 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Bush At War. NJC Recently...I purchased an arm full of books from Half-Price books...here is the list of the books : Bush At War by Bob Woodard Shut and Sing by Laura Ingram 9/11 report The Church Of Liberalism Godless by Ann Coulter Sudoku Puzzles Hell to Pay (the unfolding story of Hillary Rodham Clinton) By Barbara Olson (a gift for Marianne) Still Me by Christopher Reeve Bridget Jones's diary by Helen Fielding Walt Whitman by Catherine Reef An affair to Remember (the remarkable love story of Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy) by Christopher Anderson The Secret Archives of the Vatican by Maria Luisas Ambrosini _______________________________________________________________________ I thought Bush's talk before the UN was great...although..more subdued then I would have liked. He said just what he had to.... and laid in all on the line. He won't receive the accolades he should in our lifetime...generations ahead he will. Poverty in this country? I have never met a starving person in this country...have you? Oprah Winfrey recently said (I'm paraphrasing): WE don't know what real poverty is in this country...we have no idea. Her epiphany while in Africa..I believe? Kudos to the pope! I'm thankful he didn't back peddle...but was remorseful about any harm that came to anyone as the results of his quoting someone from the 14th century. IT is about time that someone broached this subject and has opened some dialogue about ISLAM....:IS it a religion of peace or the sword? ( At one time it was a religion of peace.. but has it been hijacked by not some small faction but a growing movement?) A Catholic writer said the pope is trying to reach them on an intellectual level( the moderates..I'm guessing?)...this is his hope anyway. And of course this same writer pointed out the irony of it all: While denouncing the pope because he dared to ask the question about peace or the sword...by quoting someone else ..they reacted with murder and mayhem...violence. IS it because a big faction has been hijacked in the name of Allah but has really nothing to do with Allah? IS the biggest threat we face for our very survival the culture clashes of the West and East? Or is the church of Al Gore..IT'S THE ENVIROMENT BABY...this is our biggest worry..concern. threat...nightmare? Bree ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:25:30 -0400 From: "bluejr@adelphia.net" Subject: RE: Bush At War. NJC >The Church Of Liberalism Godless by Ann Coulter Just in case the toilet paper runs out? - -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 21:47:12 +0000 From: "Michael O'Malley" Subject: Joni photo from 1998 NY Times I'm reposting this, since I fear it was overlooked among the discussions on Dylan, queers and politics. Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:24:42 +0000 From: "Michael O'Malley" Subject: Joni photo from 1998 NY Times Today I came across this amazing photo of Joni that I had never seen before. It's taken from a NY Times article by Neil Strauss (Oct 4 1998). Joni's in her mid-fifties. The photo is quite stark, not your typical glamour shot. It shows her close-up, crows feet and all. So beautiful. I'll say it again: so beautiful ! (Sigh, I think I'll go and pine for a while : ) http://www.flickr.com/photos/looking_for_a_cause/245427891/ There are other images here too. Thanks to Mike H for posting them to Flickr. Michael in Quebec _________________________________________________________________ Buy what you want when you want it on Sympatico / MSN Shopping http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca/content/shp/?ctId=2,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=081805 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: You Wanna Make Videos? Raise 'Em Up Like Sheep 1.Probably the very first Joni T'ai Chi video, very relaxing too... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpp4ZvS0yuw 2. Fly with her, dance with her, she's so fringe... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5NkrLb1vbo 3. Don't let this dude be your Taxi driver, he's speeding and about to crash...:) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6NGPxTe77s 4. Diana? Joni? Why should a girl care when she's still on her feet?... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDhbHA2_ZO0 5. Yep, That girl's a little she-devil and she don't need no piece of paper... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsqziAvbUPU 6. They paved the living room... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9vjfmHmnc4 Nuri - --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:58:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: NJC Re: JC on the wane I agree with David 100%. If someone wants to be involved with the JMDL, he or she needs to get active. It's the same as in other areas of life. --Smurf David Lahm said: << I can just say that each of us was new once and I never felt excluded. Many who post regularly now joined long after I did. I read the posts for their content; the "seniority" of the poster matters not at all. >> - --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:58:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: NJC Re: JC on the wane I agree with David 100%. If someone wants to be involved with the JMDL, he or she needs to get active. It's the same as in other areas of life. --Smurf David Lahm said: << I can just say that each of us was new once and I never felt excluded. Many who post regularly now joined long after I did. I read the posts for their content; the "seniority" of the poster matters not at all. >> - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2"/min or less. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:13:37 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Joni photo from 1998 NY Times michael, i don't know if your post was overlooked, but thanks for reposting it. the picture's description described neil strauss' profile as 'scathing', which i don't think it is. a few places where the writer tilts things to make joni look bad, but mostly it's very honest. a couple of things are just so right on. about the album 'taming the tiger': "The album is simultaneously beautiful and frustrating, with moments of pitch-perfect poignance as well as moments of overwrought mood music that makes you wish that Mitchell would be more open to outside input while recording." that's a bullseye. as for the picture, there was a LOT of HEATED discussion on this list when this came out. some loved it, some truly hated it. i adore it. patrick np - silence - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Michael O'Malley Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 5:47 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Joni photo from 1998 NY Times I'm reposting this, since I fear it was overlooked among the discussions on Dylan, queers and politics. Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:24:42 +0000 From: "Michael O'Malley" Subject: Joni photo from 1998 NY Times Today I came across this amazing photo of Joni that I had never seen before. It's taken from a NY Times article by Neil Strauss (Oct 4 1998). Joni's in her mid-fifties. The photo is quite stark, not your typical glamour shot. It shows her close-up, crows feet and all. So beautiful. I'll say it again: so beautiful ! (Sigh, I think I'll go and pine for a while : ) http://www.flickr.com/photos/looking_for_a_cause/245427891/ There are other images here too. Thanks to Mike H for posting them to Flickr. Michael in Quebec _________________________________________________________________ Buy what you want when you want it on Sympatico / MSN Shopping http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca/content/shp/?ctId=2,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=081 805 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 22:12:53 +0000 From: "Michael O'Malley" Subject: NJC Polaris Music Prize winner, Final Fantasy A heads up on the contemporary music scene in Canada. Final Fantasy, a one-man electronic-indie project, featuring singer-songwriter and violinist, Owen Pallett, was singled out for the first Canadian Polaris Music Prize, worth $20K. He won for his album He Poos Clouds, which beat out a shortlist that included more established acts such as Broken Social Scene, Metric, the New Pornographers, Sarah Harmer and K'naan. A shortlist of ten finalists was drawn from submissions by more than 120 music journalists, reviewers and broadcasters across Canada. All forms of contemporary music, including but not limited to pop, rock, hip hop, electronic, jazz, classical, country and blues were eligible. What is interesting is that the prize was awarded on artistic merit alone, without regard for commercial popularity or sales. More info on Final Fantasy here: http://www.tomlab.com/front/index.php?action=artist_detail&artist_id=35&PHPSESSID=94e6f1db946f494fb0a42641296e5d96# Polaris prize here : http://polarismusicprize.ca/ Michael in Quebec _________________________________________________________________ Dont waste time standing in linetry shopping online. Visit Sympatico / MSN Shopping today! http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:23:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: RE: The Times They are a Changin' - njc - patrick leader wrote: > also, 'hair' is one of my top ten movies of all time, largely because of > twyla's work in it. all of the members of her company from its golden era > were in the movie. the first musical number, 'aquarius/let the sun shine > in' in central park is just genius. I couldn't agree more. I remeber seeing it in a movie theater mesmerized by the opening. Musicals were thought to be passe by then so I don't feel this fine movie ever got the credit or attention it deserved. It was one of the first DVD's i bought! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:21:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: njc, here's one for Smurf! - --- Smurf wrote: > --Smurf, a gay American since 1953 > My, my. You have been gay for a looooonnnngg time, haven't you, sugah? Love ya, babe! Mwah! Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:26:19 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: Joni photo from 1998 NY Times Great, real photo. I had not seen it either. I noticed that "colin" left a comment-wonder if it's "our" colin-he's been a long time gone. Probably not, his avatar is a cat-colin had dogs. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael O'Malley" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:47 PM Subject: Joni photo from 1998 NY Times > I'm reposting this, since I fear it was overlooked among the discussions > on Dylan, queers and politics. > > Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:24:42 +0000 > From: "Michael O'Malley" > Subject: Joni photo from 1998 NY Times > > Today I came across this amazing photo of Joni that I had never seen > before. > It's taken from a NY Times article by Neil Strauss (Oct 4 1998). Joni's in > her mid-fifties. The photo is quite stark, not your typical glamour shot. > It > shows her close-up, crows feet and all. So beautiful. I'll say it again: > so > beautiful ! (Sigh, I think I'll go and pine for a while : ) > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/looking_for_a_cause/245427891/ > > There are other images here too. Thanks to Mike H for posting them to > Flickr. > > Michael in Quebec > > _________________________________________________________________ > Buy what you want when you want it on Sympatico / MSN Shopping > http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca/content/shp/?ctId=2,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=081805 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:03:36 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: The Times They are a Changin' - njc - thanks, jerry for this. i was surprised that many of her answers were so short, with so little information. she was pretty pleasant, but not exactly generous with words. that is completely out of character for twyla tharp, and i've been following her career for nearly 30 years. i have a couple of documentaries with extended interviews, and she is normally very very articulate. she can be incredibly pompous, but she has been a huge advocate for dance as an art form that can be entertaining and intellectually invigorating at the same time. in interviews, she takes great pains to get her ideas across, but that was definitely missing from this chat. nevertheless, fun reading. i recently got the dvd of 'the catherine wheel', the david byrne collaboration, a piece i've owned on video and loved for many years. just amazing. saw 'moving out' on broadway (just okay, though an acquaintance of mine was the fantastic female lead) and will probably see the dylan show. i'm seeing 'in the upper room', her fantastic ballet from '87 or so to philip glass music, on oct 24th, for about the 6th time in 20 years, and so excited about that! also, 'hair' is one of my top ten movies of all time, largely because of twyla's work in it. all of the members of her company from its golden era were in the movie. the first musical number, 'aquarius/let the sun shine in' in central park is just genius. patrick np - silence From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org]On Behalf Of notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: The Times They are a Changin' Since this came up the other day, I thought I would post this: Twyla Tharp Answers Readers' Questions ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:17:47 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Joni and the GLBT crowd first, to benedicte. welcome! i loved your long post with the embedded questions. exactly the fresh joni outlook we crave, and can't always come up with ourselves. i've been on the list a while and sometimes feel i can't talk about her any more. but only sometimes! and thanks jerry for drawing attention to this, which i don't remember reading before. reminded me of some of the joys of seeing the both sides tour in 2000, joni free of guitar, with her voice darker and stronger than on the album, swaying beautifully in odd/wonderful issey miyake getups... and that wonderful orchestral version of 'both sides now', perhaps the best thing to have come out of the whole process. regarding joni and 'the gays', i'm going to paste something a recommendation i've made many times before. ***** i've always felt that a particular aspect of the connection between joni and her gay fans was beautifully described in the fantastic essay by cliff chase, on jonimitchell.com. i printed it out and sent it to numerous friends in my early internet days... wally breese, another gay man who loved joni and created the site (and in a lot of ways, this community) wrote, upon receiving chase's essay, "From somewhere out of the blue, Cliff Chase sent me this piece, and I think it's beautifully written and appropriate here on the homepage as an example of just how deeply Joni's music affects so many peoples lives." Trouble Child (Joni Mitchell and the History of My Sadness) http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=1375 much joni, patrick np - silence - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Gerald A. Notaro Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 9:05 AM To: Mark-Leon Thorne Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Joni and the GLBT crowd This actually comes up quite frequently. I wrote a long post about it once. While trying to retrieve it I came across this from our very own JoniMitchell library: Behind from where we came Gay & Lesbian Review, by Jaffe Cohen September 2000 Both Sides Now; Joni Mitchell in concert IT was 3 PM and we were just getting onto the Connecticut Turnpike. Because of heavy traffic on the Cross Bronx Expressway we were running an hour late for the concert. In order to steady his nerves, my new friend Michael from Texas pressed a white rose to his nose and breathed in deeply. He had bought this particular flower to honor his idol, the woman he worshipped as nothing less than Aphrodite and Athena combined: Joni Mitchell. "We certainly lost a few in the 80's," he whispered in a mournful tone. "But they're all coming back now! This concert has been sold out for weeks!" I thanked him for the ticket. "It was either you or my darn sister, and all she cares about Joni is those rock-and-roll songs from Court and Spark. Now what would get us into the mood? I have everything here from her middle period." Michael began thumbing through a bagful of her least successful albums from that unfortunate decade from The Hissing of Summer Lawns to Mingus. "Whatever you want to hear," I replied cheerfully. In truth, I hadn't known Michael long, and was reluctant to admit that I was one of those wayward fans he despised--the ones who abandoned Joni in the mid-70's at about the time that she was abandoning catchy melodies for jazz. "Shadows and Light is really my favorite," Michael announced in his oddly delicate drawl. "It's the concert album where Joni simply lets herself be Joni!" "I've never heard of that one," I replied. Michael gave me the fisheye. "And you call yourself a fan?" He shook his head sadly. "You don't fool me. You're like all the rest who didn't want her to change. Well, honey, the girl's an artist and an artist can do whatever the hell she likes!" Just then the first track kicked in, and the air became heavy with discordant saxophone riffs. I gritted my teeth and prayed we wouldn't hit any more heavy traffic. Michael, however, closed his eyes and swayed contentedly. But soon he broke in, "Someone said that there are two types of people in the world, those who find Joni Mitchell depressing and those are already depressed and find her comforting." "Very interesting," I replied, not sure if I fit into either category. As we sped through Hartford I began to reflect upon my history with Joni, and on why I'd volunteered to drive ten hours to see her with this kook. Mainly, it was her music. Michael was right in saying that there had been a twenty-year period when I'd strayed, but Joni's more recent releases--Night Ride Home, Turbulent Indigo, and Taming the Tiger, featuring her electronic guitar and her now husky voice--had managed to get under my skin in a big way. After 1995, she seemed to regain her tunefulness, and while her lyrics never sounded as complex or relevant as those on Blue or For the Roses, these later albums had become lifesavers for me as I drove home late at night in Los Angeles. After that came her two compilation albums, Hits and Misses which reminded me of how wonderful the old Joni had sounded. Finally, there was her most recent release, Both Sides Now, in which the Diva of Depression had decided to sing a handful of torch songs accompanied by a seventy-piece orchestra. In addition to such war-horses as "You've Changed," "At Last," "I Wish I Were in Love Again," and "Stormy Weather," Joni Mitchell had rearranged two of her own classics, "A Case of You" and "Both Sides Now," and created a concept album tracking the rise and fall--and fall, and fall--of a typical modern romance. I'd bought the album after some initial resistance to the lush orchestration and an occasional weakness in her cigarette-ravaged voice, but found myself returning to it again and again. In truth, these songs were well-chosen for their wit and wisdom, and Joni sang them with honesty. Once again she was re-inventing herself as a mature lady, slightly frayed, who has earned the right to sing the blues. After t he empty vocal gymnastics of a Whitney Houston, a Celine Dionne, or a Mariah Carey, it was refreshing to hear a wise old owl who couldn't lie if she tried. While all this was happening, Joni finally seemed to be getting the recognition she deserved. Since 1998 she's been sampled by Janet Jackson, voted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and declared by a VH-1 expert's poll to be the fifth most influential woman in rock and roll history (after Aretha Franklin, Tina Turner, Janis Joplin, and Bonnie Raitt). Recently she was feted by the Turner Network with a star-studded salute featuring Cindy Lauper, Winona Ryder, Elton John, and her old flame, James Taylor. Partly because of all this media play, Both Sides Now started doing decent sales and her concert tour was getting rave reviews. The question I asked myself as we parked the car and joined the crowd entering the Fleet Pavilion--an impressive outdoor space on Boston Harbor looking like a circus tent attached to a band shell--was whether Joni could be classified as a "gay icon." The boomer crowd that waited patiently to enter the pavilion certainly had its share of same-sex couples, but it was defined more by its middle-aged demographics than by its queer quotient. Before leaving New York I had asked a younger gay friend if he'd ever heard of Joni Mitchell, and he hadn't. He'd heard of some of her songs including "Both Sides Now," "The Circle Game," and "Help Me" -- but he didn't know that one woman had written them all. I tried to remember any specifically gay content in Joni's lyrics, and all I could recall was the David Geffen-inspired "Free Man in Paris," wandering down the Champs Elysees looking for "that very good friend of mine." Or possibly "Amelia" from the Hejira album, which had been written for some lesbians. Then, too, there's the fact that Joni has a drag impersonator in the amazing John Kelly, who sings her songs in his own voice at well-attended concerts in New York and Provincetown. Still, it was hard to think of Joni in the same league with Liza Minelli, Carol Channing, or Cher. Just then Michael handed me a white rose of my own and the orchestra started playing something I didn't recognize. Michael whispered in my ear, "Debussy's The Clouds. How appropriate!" A few minutes later, Joni herself ambled onto the stage wearing an elegant, albeit matronly, orange pants outfit that Lauren Bacall could plausibly have worn. Explaining that she'd be singing mostly torch songs from her newest album, she slid gently into a deeply felt rendition of "You're My Thrill." Some people in the audience, expecting more of her old songs, were visibly disappointed; some wouldn't return for the second act. Joni's singing exceeded my expectations. Her voice was stronger than it had sounded on her latest CD. Visually, she was no longer that saturnine young woman hunched over a guitar. She'd gained a few pounds and sang without her instrument, allowing Joni to lean back and roll languidly with the music and use her large, expressive hands to caress, implore, and cajole. Only when she spoke did she remind me of that awkward bohemian of yore. Her comments between songs were scripted and brief, and several times she giggled at the strangeness of the event. At times she looked like she would have preferred to be working quietly somewhere, but at others she seemed to lose herself in the music, beaming occasionally when a fan whistled or called out, "We love you, Joni!" To be sure, she was no Judy Garland gleefully baring her soul to her acolytes, but neither was she a neurotically withdrawn and totally teleprompted Barbra Streisand. She was, in short, as unfathomable and complex as ever. Was Joni, then, to be judged a Gay Goddess? I reminisced about listening to the song "Conversation" while having a hopeless crush on a straight boy in my Eastern Philosophy class. Then there was "Ladies of the Canyon," "filling my drawing book with lines," as I fell in love with a naked male model. I remembered going home for a miserable winter break in 1970 and listening to "River," Joni's famous anti-Christmas carol, and wanting a river of my own on which to skate away from suburbia. On balance, however, I think Joni Mitchell has been less a gay goddess than a pansexual John the Baptist who pre-paved the way for my coming out. It was as if I'd listened to her in the darkness of my closet but with the door cracked open just enough to hear. She had been important to me in that strange, pre-dawn period between thinking I was homosexual and knowing I was gay. Three years later--out, loud, and proud--my musical tastes had changed, and show tunes had replaced folk songs. In 1971 "Chicago" was a rock group, but by 1976 it was a musical by Kander and Ebb, and Joni Mitchell was no longer being played by me or by my new friends. Indeed, I had abandoned Joni even earlier than I'd admitted to Michael--not when her record sales were down but when her career was peaking. In fact, by the time Court and Spark came out in 1974, we were already going to discos, and Joni Mitchell was a singer for earnest straight people who didn't know how to dance. After the intermission, Joni returned to the stage in a metallic blue dress that would have been suitable for a trip on the Enterprise. Alarming as this was, a few minutes later she was singing her new interpretation of "Both Sides Now," and one's fears were allayed. Slowing down the tempo and letting the orchestra create an atmosphere of magic and mist, she chanted this poem of hard-earned ambivalence like a high priestess casting a spell. It emanated from her 57-year-old body as if she were channeling it on the spot, and I marveled at how she could have written it at the age of 22. Magnificently, she conveyed the pain of an artist facing old age, knowing that it can only end in surrender and darkness. "Both sides now," I meditated as she sang: how the fun of the 70's had twisted into the horror of the 80's. "I really don't know life at all," Joni repeated several times, getting quieter and quieter as if it were a mantra taking us to the point where consciousness empties into the void. A few moments later t he audience was leaping to its feet. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:06:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Norma Jean Garza Subject: Bush At War. NJC - --- Bree Mcdonough wrote: > Kudos to the pope! I'm thankful he didn't back > peddle...but was > remorseful about any harm that came to anyone as the > results of his quoting > someone from the 14th century. IT is about time > that someone broached this > subject and has opened some dialogue about > ISLAM....:IS it a religion of > peace or the sword? ( At one time it was a religion > of peace.. but has it > been hijacked by not some small faction but a > growing movement?) A > Catholic writer said the pope is trying to reach > them on an intellectual > level( the moderates..I'm guessing?)...this is his > hope anyway. And of > course this same writer pointed out the irony of it > all: While denouncing > the pope because he dared to ask the question about > peace or the sword...by > quoting someone else ..they reacted with murder and > mayhem...violence. Yesterday, when my catholic pacifist, Joni-loving youngest brother, viewed Muslims on CNN burning effigies of the pope, he expressed to me that for a split moment his mind wandered wanting to go to war against Muslims. I told him his bi-polar must be at a manic level because the "magical physician" rather him, "be cool, fool" for these changing times. I suggested "The Beginning of Survival." He agreed to enter instead into his "Turbulent Indigo." Oh, my Joni, here's a grateful cheer with this wine. I feel so bitter, bitter with a touch of some sort of Canadian bee holy honey. bouncing back on both legs lady, Norma Jean PS Do you wanna waltz? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:10:02 -0600 From: Kate Subject: Paul Soles, Joni in TCE Soon you'll know all you ever wanted to know about Paul Soles, a Canadian actor for whom I am, as we speak, awaiting a new bio of him for The Canadian Encyclopedia's website. Please do check out TCE's article on Joni. I have sent in the odd correction, but maybe some of you will notice other things that should be addressed. See link below. Kate Kate Johnson, subject editor ~architecture, dance, film, theatre~ The Canadian Encyclopedia is a free on-line encyclopedia, which began in 1985 as a 4-volume print edition. In the 1990s it was published as a set of CD-ROMs and today incorporates the Encyclopedia of Music in Canada. The encyclopedia is published by the Historica Foundation of Canada and is the most authoritative resource for information about Canada. The Canadian Encyclopedia The Historica Foundation of Canada http://www.histori.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 21:08:32 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Bush At War. NJC Ann Coulter is actually a deadhead which surprised me. She talked about it in an interview. Victor STBP: Prison Break from last night On Sep 19, 2006, at 5:25 PM, bluejr@adelphia.net wrote: >> The Church Of Liberalism Godless by Ann Coulter > > Just in case the toilet paper runs out? > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:28:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Norma Jean Garza Subject: RE: Bush At War. Coulter crap NJC - --- "bluejr@adelphia.net" wrote: > >The Church Of Liberalism Godless by Ann Coulter > > Just in case the toilet paper runs out? I don't even find her opinion fit to be recycled for the kitty litter I sometimes buy....little newspaper rolls made from recycled paper to absorb the cat pee and poo. Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #343 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------