From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #333 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, September 13 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 333 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: (njc) Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies! njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: (njc) Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: (njc) Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" ["Lori Fye" ] Robert Holliston's (relatively) recent concert NJC [Chuck Eisenhardt ] Re: njc, Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" ["Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: (njc) Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" Kate wrote: > I agree that that kind of intense crisis decision making is something I'd not wish on anyone. Ah ... but they wished it for themselves, did they not? They wanted these positions of power. Maybe they got more than they bargained for, but ... you pays your nickel ... Lori Santa Rosa, CA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 14:33:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kay Ashley" Subject: 9/11 vs. Vietnam (NJC) Hi All, I did not watch the ABC special, nor will I patronize Oliver Stone's film. Both endeavors strike me as exploitative, which I guess is inevitable, as a New Yorker. I don't need to be educated about the event; it many ways it still han't ended for me. I like Victor's approach. :-) The question of why "Apopcalypse Now" worked and why the 9/11 films seem too soon (even for many non-New Yorkers) has a couple of roots, in my opinion. I think that "AN" was an amazingly well-made film that described events and a particular point of view (that of the soldier) that were poorly understood at the time. "AN" did not seem exploitative because by 1979, the described events were definitively over, even if only from the American POV, and even if only for 5 years. The American presence in Vietnam came to a defined conclusion. And perhaps most importantly, the Vietnam War occurred literally on the other side of the planet. As impassioned as the American populace's involvement was, the war itself was remote and Americans didn't have to truly look at it until people started coming home. I think it's clear that 9/11 is not over yet. We are living in what the talking heads call the "Post-9/11 World", a world of endless war for spurious peace; a world in which we are fighting a war based on the most disgusting and cynical manipulation of information. I think it's clear that more and more Americans (perhaps even a majority now) are hip to the fact that the Iraq invasion was predicated on lies; the current debate is really more about what to do now that we've royally screwed things up and have managed to create the very haven for terrorists that the Bush administration falsely claimed that Iraq was pre-2003. The Iraq war clearly has much in common with Vietnam -- remote location, people's outrage has been delayed, often cropping up only after seeing people come home -- but the real differentiator is the very profound sense of public *fear*. People were outraged about Vietnam because it was an immoral war; the alleged threat (as outlined in the domino theory) was abstract and ill-founded (now admitted to by Vietnam-era policy makers); apart from draftees and their families and friends, Americans were not *afraid* of the Vietnamese. The post-9/11 world is a very different matter. And that's why films like the ABC "docudrama" and Stone's film feel "too soon" and feel like exploitation -- because they are. We (especially those of us in large cities, and esp. those of us in NYC) deal with fear every day. We don't need the lessons driven home. The consequences of the initial event are not over and the future is uncertain and frightening. To put oneself in the position of offering any sort of "historical perspective" on the event while its consequences are still unfolding is folly and utter hubris. And we don't need to relive the initial event courtesy of the egomaniacal, self-congratulatory agendas of either fanatical conservative activists or narcissistic Hollywood directors and actors. Kay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.kayashley.com http://www.myspace.com/kayashley http://www.sonicbids.com/kayashley ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 14:52:29 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies! njc Bob wrote: Like an atheist could run for President anyway? Hi Bob, It is sad that a person who doesn't think they are God most likely couldn't run. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:28:44 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: (njc) Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" What about Madame Albright? The woman who portrayed her was not unlike the wicked witch of the west ....that voice especially. A bit over the top? (keifer Sutherland's mother) All in all...enough blame to go around. For the most part... I thought it was riveting and very well done. I was left with the conclusion that America has very real enemies....and we must go on the offensive and be prepared. I think it was Kate who mentioned MM's Fahrenheit 9/11 and about some truths there and it shouldn't be dismissed? I would agree...but at the same time one should also view Farenhype 9/11....many of MM's "truths" are soundly smashed. It is ...(with the premise this is indeed war on terror) like a cat and mouse game....simple in a way....a game we have to play..the West....I wish it were different...but I see no end in sight. Bree >>I watched it & it reminded me of why I dislike docudramas. It was very >>partisan, especially concerning what was omitted. > >Kate, did you see the way they made Condi Rice look as though she was a >dumbfounded neophyte? That is partisan? > >Of all the people portrayed in this thing, I think she looks the worst >because when we first meet her she is dismissive of the story's "hero" and >then when the crisis happens she's practically frozen. > >I'll say this, I don't envy anyone, no matter what their political >affiliation, who has to make the kinds of decisions administrations have to >make in those intense crisis situations. > >I'll stick with music. >B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:40:07 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: (NJC) 9/11/2001 on this discussion list (Patrick, Debra, Kay, and Emily, you can skip this post if you wish ...) It's interesting to note that last year on 9/11 we were all talking about the Katrina devastation and not much, if anything, was written on this list about 9/11/2001. It took me a little big of digging to find a post of mine from 9/11/2003 ... which means I haven't posted these links for 3 years, shame on me. My original intention was to post these links every 9/11, but I guess life got in the way or something. Anyway, because I believe it's important to remember how the tragegy directly affected some of our friends on this list, here are some posts written by some of our members, on or about September 11, 2001. This isn't some Hollywood crap; this is reality. http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/msg01243.html http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/msg01368.html http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/msg01509.html http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/msg01511.html http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/msg01605.html http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/msg02164.html http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/msg02374.html Lori Santa Rosa, CA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:42:40 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: (njc) Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" Bree wrote: > I was left with the conclusion that America has very real enemies....and we must > go on the offensive and be prepared. We must go on the offensive? Who is "we," Bree? You and me? Or do we leave going on the offensive to our young people in uniform? Bah. Lori Santa Rosa, CA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:17:40 -0700 (PDT) From: dsknyc05 Subject: Re: NJC Are you going to watch Both parts of the ABC 9/11 FICTIONAL DRAMA!!! - --- Kate Bennett wrote: > >Who are you addressing Andeemac? Debra wrote this > and I hardly think > she has a "typical Republican viewpoint." > Brenda< > > To add to that, if I were Debra or any of the other > NYC residents who > experienced this first hand, I'd avoid watching this > show. Who needs to > watch someone's recreation of a horror they actually > experienced. Thank you, Kate and Brenda, for setting the record straight before it gets more confused. I appreciate that. Debra Shea, in NYC Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:30:26 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: Modern Times... MeShell for a cent njc Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > (Sidebar to Brenda - I did pick up MeShell's "Plantation Lullabies" - on > ebay - for a penny.) > A penny? That's a travesty! Then again, those plastic discs themselves are approaching that cost anyway. It's pretty amazing how fast that has happened. B n.p.: Marisa Monte - "Levante" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:25:33 -0700 (PDT) From: dsknyc05 Subject: Re: njc, Tell ABC we "Don't Need No More Lies!" US POLITICS - --- Brenda wrote: > Debra, > > Thank you for your reply. I approach this in the > spirit of discussion > and hope you do the same. Oh, yes, I do. I've read your email quickly and will respond soon, probably not until tomorrow or the next day. There's a lot to mull over, and I'm wondering now about the overarching ideas, rather than a point by point discussion... now, though, I have to run and vote in the NY primary. Thanks for taking the time to write out your thoughts. I just looked at my email and see so many messages with exclamation points... wow. 'til later then. Debra Shea, in NYC Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:20:30 EDT From: AsharaProducLLC@aol.com Subject: Announcing.........THE LOGO CONTEST!!!!! (NJC) Once again, we are holding a logo contest, this time for Jonifest 2007! Go to Jonifest.com to see previous winning entries, then get out your pens, pencils, watercolors, crayons, pastels, paints, and your creative juices and send your entry (or entries) to: _logocontest@jonimitchell.com_ (mailto:logocontest@jonimitchell.com) All entries must be received by midnight October 3rd, EST. At that point, voting will then be open. (details to follow!) Please e-mail me with any questions. GOOD LUCK TO ALL!!!! Hugs, Ashara _www.jonifest.com_ (http://www.jonifest.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:07:49 -0500 From: Subject: Re: Re: njc, Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" This is a made-for-TV film that purports to be based on historical fact. There are recreations of traumatic events that people remember with searing clarity. Yes, there is/was a short disclaimer at the very beginning, but I guess I'm not sure that people will remember that in the heat of the their viewing experience. A lot will look awfully familiar, and viewers know that those familiar things are true, because they remember them. Why not assume, then, that it's *all* true? The "many" refers to many of those viewing the movie, under the circumstances I described. The harm I think may be done is the assumption that everything portrayed in the movie actually happened, when, according to both the principals indignant at their portrayal and the makers of the movie, who have admitted that certain controversial scenes were ad libbed on the spot, that's clearly not the case. And that may polarize the nation more than it already is, if that's possible. However, since I haven't seen the movie, and you have, you've obviously got the edge on me in describing the tenor of the show. Mary. > > From: Brenda > Date: 2006/09/11 Mon PM 05:32:23 CDT > To: blckcrow@chorus.net > CC: kbhla@sbcglobal.net, joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: njc, Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" > > > > blckcrow@chorus.net wrote: > > You mention that you're surprised that so many are protesting the miniseries without having seen it. Well, with the exception of those individuals and entities who were given advance copies (and those appear to have been conservative in rather significant proportions), NO ONE has > > seen it! We're all operating blind, based on news reports and statements of those who tell us that incidents in the miniseries involving them either didn't happen in the way they were portrayed, or didn't happen at all. I'm reading my accounts from news sources I trust, and which are well-established. Should we halt our protests until the show airs, and irreparable harm has been done by biased, inaccurate depictions in a "docudrama" that many watching aren't going to separate from fact? > > Who are the "many" and what harm do you think is going to be done? I > watched the show last night in its entirety and it is clearly a > dramatization. One thing I did see that I hadn't given much > consideration to before was the effort and coordination it took to > capture Ramsey Yousef. As someone who did not live in New York when > that happened, I know it did not register with me in the same way > Oklahoma and 9/11 did. > > Brenda > > n.p.: Thievery Corporation - "Holographic Universe" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:52:24 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: One Night Only This just in kids. I am booked to ride the train again. This time leaving from New Orleans at the crack of dawn (please Smurph that joke is so old) and ride the train playing music and having a good old time with whistle stops in Meridian, Birmingham, Atlanta, Charlottesville and then on to Washington D.C. I will be in D.C. For one night only tentatively at the Watergate Hotel TBA tomorrow and attending a festival on Saturday during the day at the Kennedy Center. Then I get back on the train to come home. The big news here is that Garth Ross (the man responsible for booking Claudia and Randall at the Kennedy Center) is the guy who hired me and as luck would have it he is a guitar player and a HUGE Joni fan. We almost had an explosion over the phone lines. Not only am I going to be on a paid gig doing sound for other Gulf Coast artists, but I am going to get to play a lot of music AND he is renting my VG-8 and Parker Fly for another artist to use on the train. I've died and gone to heaven. ANYWAYS I was wondering if any of you JMDL types out there wanna hook up. I will be free on Friday night for a mini-fest ( Sherelle, Lori, Claudia, any other DC'ers) and play music either at my hotel or anywheres. I was also thinking that if anyone wants to hop on the train along the way (Cindy, Gisele, Muller, Victor.... Anyone) I can get some free passes on the train from the Amtrak guy. They are out of sleeper cars on the way up but they have coach tickets that I can get at no charge. The fest at the Kennedy Center is also free. All you guys have my number so don't wait call me. This is gonna be such a fun trip. I hope some of you guys are free and can do this. Sorry for the short notice but that is how my industry works. Everything last minute. Sometimes that9s a good thing though. I am passing up working with Judith Owen at the Ogden Museum on Thursday night and the entire cast from "All The Kings Men" (including Kate Winslet, Sir Anthony Hopkins, Jude Law, Sean Penn, et al) at the Preimere party I booked on Saturday at Tulane University. Isn't amazing how many names I have dropped in ONE email??? Sorry just really excited and I guess Kate and the gang will have to go on without me. Love Paz NP-House on TV (while we wait for Rock Star-Supernova) P.S. Sorry no NJC for fear of leaving someone out ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:09:00 -0400 From: Chuck Eisenhardt Subject: Robert Holliston's (relatively) recent concert NJC Please forgive for cross-posting this, and especially to those NEFest people who will get two copies....but it's important.... I've been remiss for not telling the world (our world, anyway) that Robert Holliston, a sometime list correspondent and frequent JoniFest attendee, recently performed, in Victoria, BC, CN, his 'first solo piano concert this century'! Barbara and I were lucky enough to be there and bear witness. The concert was lovely, taking place at the Victoria Conservatory of Music, where Robert (or Roberto, if your prefer) teaches. Turning out were the whole Victoria musical society: his students, former teachers, his associates at the Victoria Opera Studio where his is 'repetiteur' and Chorus Master, people among the notable singers with whom Robert has associated, etc. People even from Boston! We always knew Robert as a loving friend,, a consummate accompanist, and great teacher, and a mean tango player (with the group Viveza), and a Mrs. Miller and Motown fan, but we had never experienced him in his element, on his own turf, and delivering very heavy piano music to (probably) 300 heavy music types. Seeing this concert unfold, and experiencing his 90 minute program was the very highlight of our trip to BC. the program: July 23,2006 J.S. Bach, Partida no. 5 in G major Mozart, Sonata in C minor Chopin, Fantaisie in F minor Schumann, Kinderszenen, Opus 15 Debussy, L'isle joyeuse Robert received 3 standing ovations. He is much loved in this house, but all over the city of Victoria and lots of BC as well. In a way I am glad he will probably never see this post, as he is a somewhat retiring and it might well have embarrassed him to read it. But if you ever meet him, you could tell him that you had heard somewhere that he gave a great and lastingly memorable concert a while back. Chuck Eisenhardt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:32:30 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: njc, Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" Since when is anything on TV supposed to be real? Just because you see something on television doesn't mean it really happened. Look at everything Jill Carroll had to go through, being forced to make videos and say things she obviously didn't believe. An extreme example but anyhow, the idea that movies and dramatizations aren't a hundred percent accurate isn't exactly a new concept. Plus you can always change the station or even better, turn off your television. Victor NP: silence except for a light patter of rain > The "many" refers to many of those viewing the movie, under the > circumstances I described. The harm I think may be done is the > assumption that everything portrayed in the movie actually > happened, when, according to both the principals indignant at their > portrayal and the makers of the movie, who have admitted that > certain controversial scenes were ad libbed on the spot, that's > clearly not the case. And that may polarize the nation more than > it already is, if that's possible. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:27:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: More Americans Have Now Died In Iraq Than Died On 9/11 - NJC From << http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20060912/cm_huffpost/029234 >> More Americans Have Now Died In Iraq Than Died On 9/11 RJ Eskow Tue Sep 12, 1:15 PM ET While President Bush and other Republican politicians spent the day exploiting the memory of those we lost five years ago, the nation overlooked a grim milestone: More Americans have now died in Iraq than died on 9/11. Iraq didn't attack us on that day, and our misguided policy there has now taken more American lives than Al Qaeda. Here are the numbers: 3,015 Americans have died in Iraq as of September 9. 2,666 of these were military deaths and 349 were civilians. The Republicans are fond of playing cheap number games with Iraqi casualty figures, and one of the ways they do it is by listing the deaths of enlisted personnel only. They're hoping that a lazy press and an indifferent public will overlook the civilian losses, and to a large extent they've been right so far. A total of 2,973 people died on 9/11. Most, although not all, were Americans. Another game Republicans play with the public involves their redefinition of the word "casualty," which has always meant (and still means) those who have been killed or injured in combat. The GOP leadership often use the word to mean only deaths, and the press usually lets them get away with that too. So here's another figure, one that represents a group of too-often-forgotten American heroes: 20,000. That's the approximate number of non-fatal military casualties from the war in Iraq. This represents many more people than were wounded on 9/11, and consists of far more serious injuries than in any previous war. Battlefield medicine can save the lives of the grievously wounded now in ways that were unthinkable in previous wars. Unfortunately it can't grow back limbs, or heal highly disfiguring burns, or repair gravely damaged brains and nervous systems. Many experts feel that the Pentagon is seriously undercounting these non-fatal casualties, and some place the figure as high as 48,000. Official numbers are in the 20,000 range, however, so we'll accept this count for discussion purposes. None of these figures counts Iraqi casualties, of course. After the cheap gamesmanship that was used to artificially lower August's Iraqi civilian death toll in Baghdad, it's very difficult to cite any figures with confidence. A count of Iraqi morgues put the total well above 40,000, but that was some time ago. And as for the total number of wounded, including women and children - well, as Mr. Rumsfeld has so often reminded us, we're not counting. Today President Bush and his fellow Republicans made another public spectacle out of 9/11, the anniversary of the gravest executive blunder in American history. It's been more than five years since President Bush told the CIA officer trying to warn him about the upcoming attacks that "you've covered your ass now," and then went off to enjoy his vacation day. His other blunder - the wrong war, at the wrong time, with the wrong result for our nation's security - has now proven even more costly in American lives. Who will lay a wreath for these American victims? "War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace," said Thomas Mann. The real struggle we face is preventing terrorism. The GOP's escapist distraction in Iraq has proven deadlier than the real business at hand. Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:37:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: My Dead Angel (1) njc Lori wrote, about Israel: "I've always wondered, and now I wonder even more: why does anyone want to live there?" I replied: "Dearest Lori, "It's like wondering why a captive or a prisoner doesn't simply open the doors and walk out." Lori wrote: "Does Israel have locked borders that prevent a person from leaving?" The borders are locked in peoples' minds as if it was genetically tattooed into them and that's one of the worst things that can happen to humans. It's a society created paranoia where everyone fears the world outside and still can't shake of that fear because they're constantly reminded that tragically it has roots in their history. Once a home becomes an obsession it also becomes a prison, and Em was absolutely right - it's the olives, all the olives, and nothing but the olives! As for me? You know they say the grass is always greener on the other side - well, i've been there and i'm dying to get back:) Lots of love, Nuri - --------------------------------- All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:19:45 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: njc, Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" >I guess in this era of entertainment it is illogical to ask why anyone would produce a fictionalized account of such a historical event to broadcast on its fifth anniversary.< very well said jerry! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:26:40 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: (njc) Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" I believe that was the intent of this tv show- to make you feel that way >I was left with the conclusion that America has very real enemies....and we must go on the offensive and be prepared. Bree< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:41:26 -0500 From: Subject: Re: Re: njc, Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" Well: I think I made it pretty clear that I took the last two of your suggestions. Sorry, but I hold works purporting to be based on historical fact, especially when those facts and their aftermath have caused great pain and division, to a pretty high standard. I don't really care what medium those works are created in, or how they're shown or aired. In answer to your question: some things on TV, by their very nature, are supposed to be more "real" than others. When they're not, I exercise the options you mention. Mary. > > From: Victor Johnson > Date: 2006/09/12 Tue PM 08:32:30 CDT > To: > CC: Brenda , , > Subject: Re: njc, Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" > > > Since when is anything on TV supposed to be real? Just because you > see something on television doesn't mean it really happened. Look at > everything Jill Carroll had to go through, being forced to make > videos and say things she obviously didn't believe. An extreme > example but anyhow, the idea that movies and dramatizations aren't a > hundred percent accurate isn't exactly a new concept. Plus you can > always change the station or even better, turn off your television. > > Victor > > NP: silence except for a light patter of rain > > > > > > > The "many" refers to many of those viewing the movie, under the > > circumstances I described. The harm I think may be done is the > > assumption that everything portrayed in the movie actually > > happened, when, according to both the principals indignant at their > > portrayal and the makers of the movie, who have admitted that > > certain controversial scenes were ad libbed on the spot, that's > > clearly not the case. And that may polarize the nation more than > > it already is, if that's possible. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #333 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------