From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #328 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, September 11 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 328 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- My Dead Angel [Nuriel Tobias ] oh my gawd.... (njc) [Garret ] Modern Times ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow [Bob Muller ] RE: NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow ["Azeem" ] Re: Modern Times njc ["Randy Remote" ] RE: NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow [Bob Muller ] Re: My Dead Angel njc ["Randy Remote" ] Re: Modern Times njc [Em ] Re: NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow ["ron" ] Re: NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow [Bob Muller ] Re: My Dead Angel njc [Nuriel Tobias ] Words From the Original Male Mitchell [Nuriel Tobias ] Parsonage Lane- in loving tribute to Jonifest 2001 and all jonifests that have been and are yet to come... [Vi] RE: njc, Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" [] Re: njc, Tell ABC we "Don't Need No More Lies!" US POLITICS [dsknyc05 ] RE: njc, Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" [dsknyc05 ] RE: NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow ["Richard Flynn" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 04:57:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: My Dead Angel No NJC tag here, maybe only-Joni's would like to read this one too and hopefully respond. I want to share something with you not only because i know there are many gay men and women in our list but mainly because i really want to know if you ever had to face an "issue" (gay-related ot non-gay-related) like this one with a "friend". This year, worldpride 2006 (The international gay parade), will come to Jerusalem, Israel. Local gay parades did take place in Israel before, but it's the first time that Israel hosts the worldpride, the main parade of all gay men and women from all over the world. Since the worldpride was announced, a steaming river of hate is flooding everything and everyone here. Each and every single party - left, right, anything and anyone - is against it. Parties will be parties but it's much worse. From the university to the fish market, from so called human rights lawyers to soap show's housewives, from kids in school to the dead in the graveyards - nothing but hate, hate, hate. The sun and the moon hate it, the dogs and the birds hate it. For the very first time in this country's history, and what no war or a football game or any other "event" that's "supposed" to unite a nation has managed to unite - everyone is united and it's hate that unites them. You can read about this wave of hate in every gay-pride website in the net. I have something else i want to share with you. As i was watching the TV news last night, a segment about the anti-you-me-and-everyone-else of the religious and orthdox of this country was showing, and they hate you like no one else hates you. It's not surprising at all to watch them hate anyone they wish to hate and if they don't hate you now they will hate you very soon. However, an orthodox spokesman was the center of the segment, and the Dog Eat Dog preacher is a Dancing Clown compared to this dreadful saint. Sitting on a park bench with his wife next to him and their 8 kids at their feet pulling eachother's hair while their mother smiles towards the camera in confusion, he spoke in the sweetest gentle voice of a child and the most calm tone of a demon about the "lowlife God-forsaken behemoth and donkey's ass fuckers which are the cause of all Evil in this world since it's creation that will melt into thin air once the Mesiah comes next week". This creature was once one of my best friends. He was the first youngest gay teen that outed himself in our hometown. While gay men, young and old, were hiding in the dark, fearing the eyes and minds of everyone around them, he was laughing and dancing in this town's streets, waving his beautiful long hair towards the crowd, wearing his lovely beads and his amazingly colourful clothes, sunbathing naked at the beach and on rooftops too, playing his guitar like a devil and singing "unspoken" songs of free love and new hope for our generation. Everybody loved that kid. Everybody fell in love with that angel. He turned fear into hope and sadness into joy. If you felt alone and cold - he set beside you so close you could almost smell the sunlight pouring out from his breath, then he would pull a blanket over you and hugged you like no brother of yours would hug you. Wherever he was - candles lit up for you, flowers were showering for you, and kisses were flying above your head like butterflies. He knew every secret fountain of pure water in the forests of this town and it's mountains, and he would hold your hand and you'd follow him with a flower crown he made just for you. Birds set on his shoulders as if he was a lovely tree and on rainy days the rainbow would start in the sky and end on his face. You were never hungry or thirsty or tired when he was with you - he made you feel alive as if it was your first day in this world. When he stared at you, you had to stare back at him as if he was a mirror where your reflection was heavenly. Time stood still and dreams came true just beacuse he was staring at you and you were staring at him. Then one day he vanished to Jerusalem and never came back. As his wife and 8 kids were zooming out from the camera's eye and as it was zooming in closer and closer to him and focused on the face i knew so well, his eyes, a set of burning golden flames, were filling the screen, and for a brief moment it was like he was staring at me and i was staring at him. Nuri - --------------------------------- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:11:06 +0100 From: Garret Subject: oh my gawd.... (njc) Oh my god!!!! Guess what. Harold Pinter is performing Krapp's Last Tape at the Royal Court in London for a couple of weeks in ocotber...... and it is sold out!!!! Can you imagine?? I know, i know, not everyone loves multiple exclamation points, lol, but feck etiquette. Luckily i have 'contacts' and just might get a ticket but i can only go if i can get a weekend ticket as i can not take time out of work/course. Thwe idea of Pinter playing Krapp is very very exciting to me. I sw John Hurt doing it during the beckett centenary celebrations earlier this year here in Dublin and that was great. But Pinter. I mean, anyone who knows the play will understand that this, in some sense, is sort of like Joni singing BSN thirty years after she wrote it... at that point she probably had seen things from both sides, all sides. Pinter. Sweet Joni;-) GARRET NP - some crooner type on the radio singing tie a yellow ribbon around the old oak tree, lol, it's fun. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 10:14:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Modern Times I'm surprised there has been no mention that Dylan's Modern Times debuted at #1 this week. That is certainly pretty hot news. It is his first #1 in 30 years and make him the oldest artist to ever to so. Jerry P.S. For you Joni-onlies, the connection here is that Bob is the only artist for which she compares herself. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 08:43:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow I had read about this for years but had never seen it. It's Pink Floyd's "Dark Side Of The Moon" synch'ed with "The Wizard Of Oz". It's definitely enjoyable if you're familiar with both of these classics, which I imagine most of us are. Some really fun and funny lyrical and musical synchro moments. So if you have 43 minutes to burn, check it out: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4935715412555856092 Bob NP: Daniel Lanois, "Fire" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 18:38:53 +0100 From: "Azeem" Subject: RE: NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow Bob wrote: << I had read about this for years but had never seen it. It's Pink Floyd's "Dark Side Of The Moon" synch'ed with "The Wizard Of Oz". It's definitely enjoyable if you're familiar with both of these classics, which I imagine most of us are. Some really fun and funny lyrical and musical synchro moments. >> Which reminds me: have you heard "Dub Side of the Moon" - a reggae reworking of the whole album by the Easy All-Stars? It's available on Emusic (as is their other album, Radiodread, which is - oh, I'm sure you can guess...) and sounds pretty good. Azeem in London - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.2/442 - Release Date: 08/09/2006 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:25:43 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: Modern Times njc - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald A. Notaro" > I'm surprised there has been no mention that Dylan's Modern Times debuted > at #1 this week. That is certainly pretty hot news. It is his first #1 in > 30 years and make him the oldest artist to ever to so. I heard about that last night, and thought, 'cool, there are still alot of people who want to hear good old singer-songwriter stuff'. Nice to know. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:43:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: RE: NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow Indeed I am, Azeem. My favorite webcast "Coverville" featured DSOTM a while back, doing the whole thing with covers and they included a track or two from these guys if I recall correctly. There are several Joni albums that can be completely re-created with covers; Clouds, Blue, C&S, & Hejira. Bob NP: Al Green, "I'm Still In Love With You" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:23:48 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: My Dead Angel njc Hmmm...I thought you were describing Jesus there for a minute.... Someone with such a free spirit and unconditional love is like a butterfly....some self-hating, darkened soul is sure to come along and step on it...like they did so long ago..and have done so many times. I don't know what the answer is for the gay community-on one hand, here in America there have been landmark events in which they stood up and marched for their freedom. On the other hand, if there is that much hate, it could be dangerous. When the haters spew that gays are responsible for everything evil, ask them whether Hitler or Hussein or that Kim guy in Korea were/are gay. Maybe that will shut them up for a second or two. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 13:03:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Modern Times njc and roots rock. A far as I'm concerned, musically, its roots rock. :) and to me, it *is* his best since "Desire" (which is his last one to come out at #1) So its kind of nice to see sales results following what seems about right. (for once) Em - --- Randy Remote wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerald A. Notaro" > > I'm surprised there has been no mention that Dylan's Modern Times > debuted > > at #1 this week. That is certainly pretty hot news. It is his first > #1 in > > 30 years and make him the oldest artist to ever to so. > > I heard about that last night, and thought, 'cool, there are still > alot of > people who want to hear good old singer-songwriter stuff'. Nice to > know. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:59:29 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow hi >>>>>> bob wrote >I had read about this for years but had never seen it. It's Pink Floyd's >"Dark Side Of The Moon" synch'ed with "The Wizard Of Oz". > > It's definitely enjoyable if you're familiar with both of these classics, > which I imagine most of us are. Some really fun and funny lyrical and > musical synchro moments. well - its always enjoyable to listen to dark side of the moon & im always amazed at the depth & extent of creatitivity out there on the web but i found this slightly disappointing. the moment where the music & the movie tied up were just coincidence - surely could've been so much more with some active editing & matching. was surprised tho to find that the firefox video capture let me capture the stream in ipod format ron ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:20:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow Hi Ron - I have to say that I was also a little underwhelmed by the whole thing after reading so much about it. Maybe I should have read one of the many "lists of coincidences" beforehand so I could have been looking for these things. Most of the major ones I did catch. And a lot of them are no big deal. http://www.turnmeondeadman.net/DSotR/List.html Bob NP: CSN, "Anything At All" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:32:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: My Dead Angel njc Hi Randy "I thought you were describing Jesus there for a minute" I was describing a lovely young man that "died" many years ago only to "come back to life" as a little Hitler. Jesus held on to the light 'till his last breath. This man sold the light in exchange for darkness and now he proudly calls it light. Back then he'd cry for you if your tears ran dry. But now, If he could, he'd nail all of us to the cross and dance around it. "Someone with such a free spirit and unconditional love is like a butterfly" I clearly remember how years ago, i visitid him in his Yeshiva room, hopelessly trying to find some trace of love in a man who no longer had a heart, when a butterfly flew inside the room and set on the table. Do you know what he did? He looked at the butterfly with disgust and told me that according to the Talmud butterflies are Lilith's creatures sent from Hell to spy and distract Yeshiva boys, then took an old book and smashed the butterly with it. Believe it, Randy - i saw it with my own eyes. Do you know what he did after that? He washed his hands three times. "I don't know what the answer is for the gay community-on one hand, here in America there have been landmark events in which they stood up and marched for their freedom. On the other hand, if there is that much hate, it could be dangerous." The walls of every street in Jerusalem are covered with thousands of posters signed by the leaders of the Orthodox. Here's exactly what's written on them (I translated it to English): "We order all members of our holy community to hurt and attack every gay man and woman in the parade. A reward of 20000 Shekels would be given to anyone who hurts or kills one of the gay men and women from Sodom. We advice our sacred defenders to use home made bombs, knives, bricks, and sticks with nails". "When the haters spew that gays are responsible for everything evil, ask them whether Hitler or Hussein or that Kim guy in Korea were/are gay. Maybe that will shut them up for a second or two." Hate crimes are planned in silence, take action in silence, then forgotten in silence. Nuri p.s. Hey Randy, i really missed your replies man. Here's to you, my friend. - --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:52:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Words From the Original Male Mitchell "I can't go back there anymore You know my keys won't fit the door" (I Had a King) "After Joni broke into our Detroit apartment and took exactly half of everything before heading for New York, i changed the locks. She just turned up with a truck and a group of friends!" (Chuck Mitchell) Nuri - --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 18:07:23 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Parsonage Lane- in loving tribute to Jonifest 2001 and all jonifests that have been and are yet to come... [I am reposting the original post I made in 2001 on September 10th at about 7:30pm. When I think of that time I remember how incredibly high I felt flying home from Boston having been to Jonifest, scribbling a few lines on the plane, and improbably writing and finishing this song on September 10th, never imagining what the following day would bring. Staying at the beach with Kakki, Michael, and Nikki in May's little house will always be one of my fondest memories. It's hard to believe sometimes that it was five years ago. Anyhow, this is the way I chose to remember that week. Nothing can ever take away the joy of friends and laughter. If you're not familiar with this story/song visit http://waytobluemusic.com and/or itunes.] thank you...you open my heart, yes you do... Parsonage Lane (c)2001 Victor Johnson Flying out of Boston, Lifting off the ground. On a highway paved with clouds, Where do they go? Wind around tall, white castles, Valleys long and vast. They seem to go on forever, Today. I'll stay here awhile, I've come home again. Friends and laughter, Down Parsonage Lane. Turn around and linger, September is here. The moonlight on the island, The sound of your guitar. Cascading in rivers, Voices I know. Reach me so gently, Open my heart. I'll stay here awhile, I've come home again. Friends and laughter, Down Parsonage Lane. 4 am on Plum Island, Singing to the dawn. We walk towards the water, Through the heavy sand. But I know that I must soon go, Wander among the clouds. Where the roads go on forever, They always take me home. I'll stay here awhile, I've come home again. Friends and laughter, Down Parsonage Lane. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 10:07:10 -0500 From: Subject: RE: njc, Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" I've been sitting this one out, as I have with pretty much all political commentary on the JMDL for the past three years, but feel compelled to comment on a few things. Kakki wrote: "What is also so weird to me is that something like 200,000+ people who have not even seen Path to 9/11 are protesting it, not based on what they have viewed, but because they have been directed to do so." To which I reply: Excuse me. "*Directed*??!" This reminds me of the arguments after 9/11 and before the invasion of Iraq that most or all of those in the street protesting U.S. military action were doing so in lemming-like compliance with the nefarious Marxist groups who were supposedly organizing the demonstrations. Even if that last claim were true (and, in at least some cases, it apparently was), most of the people I knew, including myself, didn't give a whip who was doing the legwork of organizing the protests. We were out there to express our own feelings, and ONLY our own feelings. which were very, very strong. I look at the current protests in much the same way. I'm not part of a "vast left-wing conspiracy." No one "directed" me, or the people I know, to do anything! Did groups organize campaigns about the miniseries? Well, probably. But I don't think anyone put a gun to anyone's head, forcing participation. There's simply a lot of discontent out there, as one might expect when the last presidential election was so bitterly contested. Given an outlet to express that discontent, people will. As far as "censorship" goes: IMO, that's a red herring. As you so correctly point out, the First Amendment deals with CONGRESS'S right to restrict speech. There's been no governmental action here, and none is planned: pleas are being issued to a private entity not to air a program that many find dangerous in its apparent historical inaccuracies about a crucial period in American history still fresh and painful in the minds of many. That's not "censorship." Private businesses have a right to make decisions about their products and their operations, as most conservatives, in my experience, would be the very first to point out. You mention that you're surprised that so many are protesting the miniseries without having seen it. Well, with the exception of those individuals and entities who were given advance copies (and those appear to have been conservative in rather significant proportions), NO ONE has seen it! We're all operating blind, based on news reports and statements of those who tell us that incidents in the miniseries involving them either didn't happen in the way they were portrayed, or didn't happen at all. I'm reading my accounts from news sources I trust, and which are well-established. Should we halt our protests until the show airs, and irreparable harm has been done by biased, inaccurate depictions in a "docudrama" that many watching aren't going to separate from fact? Sorry: I don't see why. Finally, you attempt to distinguish between conservatives' responses to the yanked Reagan biopic and liberals' responses to the 9/11 "docudrama." To me, they're distinctions without a difference. If Reagan wasn't personally able to defend himself, those around him, including but not limited to his wife, Nancy, certainly were. The same conservatives who, in the article Bob posted, wanted a disclaimer ever 10 minutes stating that the work was "fiction" now are apparently content with a short mention in the beginning of the six-hour miniseries, perhaps repeated at the beginning of the second day's installment, that the show is not a documentary, that certain scenes were conflated. . .etc. To me, the starkly different responses of conservatives based on the content of these two films reeks of the most blatant hypocrisy. And no, I'm not saying that liberals/Democrats aren't capable of the same thing! We certainly are: maybe that's just the nature of the political beast. But I'm just calling it as I see it here. Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:56:16 -0700 (PDT) From: dsknyc05 Subject: Re: njc, Tell ABC we "Don't Need No More Lies!" US POLITICS - --- Brenda wrote: > dsknyc05 wrote: > > Yes, let it air. But label it accurately! > > It is labeled as a docudrama. I'd say that's > accurate. Not by ABC! When I first started seeing the ads a couple of weeks ago, it looked as though it was a documentary. "Based on the 9/11 Report!" was a prominent part of the ads. Sure, I recognized the actor Harvey Keitel, but I don't think everyone would and since the person he's portraying died on 9/11, then of course some actor has to play the part. ABC is now calling it a miniseries and a dramatization, but it was the people talking about the inaccuracies that gave it the docudrama label. > The chair of the 9/11 Commission, Thomas Kean who is > responsible for the > report and likely knows what's in it as much if not > more than anyone > else advised the production and will be on the ABC > program at 10pm > Monday to present his view of how he thinks the > portrayal is even. > Since he's one of those experts, do you believe him? I at least paused and was curious about what he was saying and would say. The last I heard on Thursday night was that he's looking at it all closely again. Good for him. And who except him and the movie makers know what the terms of his involvement were? "Advising the production" may have been just giving his name to make it all seem legit. But, sure, I'll pay attention to what he says. > > > That's what makes me think most > > > Repubs are very stupid. It's unnatural to agree > > > with anyone, even the president, on EVERY issue. > There are Republicans who didn't believe going into > Iraq was the right > choice, even as the Democrats went along with the > vote for it. There > are Republicans who disagree with Bush on spending, > the size of > government, stem cell research and immigration. > Republicans disagreed > with Bush about Harriet Myers. There were > Republicans who disagreed > with Bush about John Bolton. > > Reuters reports this morning that the Republican led > Senate Intelligence > Committee just released a report which states that > "Saddam Hussein > provided no material support for al Qaeda and had no > relationship with > al Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Musab al Zarqawi." You > can find the report > on the home page of the Senate Intelligence > Committee web site. As an aside here: Yes, I know all about the report. So why did George Bush, as recently as Aug 21, claim there was a connection? The report is new. The information it's based on is not. That lack of a connection has been known for years, and yet still the Bushies use it as one of their justifications for invading Iraq. Repubs might not have a problem with such outright lying and manipulation, but I do, especially when it results in so many deaths and such destruction. > Do you really have any justification for "EVERY?" You've mistakenly put my EVERY onto every Repub, and that is not what I said. There are some Repubs who do agree with every action the Bushies take, even when they have to call untruths "facts" and repeat the Bushies' excuses in amazing displays of the ability to rationalize ... yes, there are some Repubs who agree with everything the Bushies have done. (Of course there's never enough time to discuss every action the Bushies have taken so there may be some little thing Bush did where his base thought to themselves, hmm, not so good. If they think that, then they sure do keep quiet about it.) The Bush supporters here on the list never surprise me, although I always hope they do because then it would feel like real thought has been put into what they write instead of just hearing the Repub talking points being repeated. On every issue involving Bush I know exactly what some people here will write before they even post. Other examples are Bush supporters on blogs making fun of Democrats when it's clear the writers don't even understand the issues, some Repub talking heads on news shows who support the Bushies no matter what, i.e., on every issue, sometimes with absurd excuses, and some politicians who do the same... Are they all "very stupid"? I don't know. That's a harsh judgment. But lacking intellectual integrity? Yes, I think so. It is unnatural to agree (or to show ONLY their agreement) with every action that Bush (or anyone!) has taken. > > I think ABC just recently applied the docudrama > > label. > > Why do you think this? The minute the actors were > hired it became a > docudrama. I'm sure there are some "very stupid" > television executives > at ABC, but they do seem to know the difference > between types of films > and programs. For the reasons I stated above. Do you see the word docudrama anywhere on the ABC website? I didn't the last time I looked. And the emphasis on the first ads was on how the show was based on the 9/11 Report, as though it was factual, not made up. > > > For good reason! Not everyone has sucked in the > > > Repub propaganda! > > So the Democrats who voted for the Patriot Act and > for going to war can > be counted among the "very stupid" who were > mysteriously hypnotized by > the allure of Republican propaganda? I don't recall saying that only Repubs are the targets of propaganda. It's very nature is to manipulate people to further the propagandist's usually hidden agenda. As far as the Repub-labelled "going to war" vote: One ongoing lie that especially grates is the Repubs repeating that all the people who voted yes on giving Bush the authority to pursue diplomacy re: Iraq (with war as a LAST resort when all else had failed) saw the same intelligence the Bushie insiders did. No, wrong. The Bushies showed Congress only intelligence that supported their already-made decision to invade Iraq. > The issue that I have with the complaining is that > it often seems to be > riddled with generalizations, hyperbole and just > enough fact to be > mis-representative. Why do you label disagreement as "complaining"? Right away, that's showing a partisan bias that is not helpful. Dems have a different view on some issues... so we're all supposed to not say anything? That's how the Bushies steamrolled right over the Dems in Congress who spent way too long trying to get along, because if they said ANYTHING to the contrary to the Bushies' wishes they were labeled as complaining or whining or, now, as "appeasers". So the Dems tried to get along, and look at the mess we're all in now! > How can the left possibly hope > to have their voices > be taken seriously when they seem to favor complaint > over acting > constructively and proactively? How does calling > people "very stupid" > help? Good question. It's my label, borne of frustration, for people willing to support an administration that will do them harm. It does seem very stupid to me. My anger and disdain are more appropriately focused on the Bushies themselves, but sometimes I get angry, too, at the people willing to be so manipulated. It takes two to have constructive discussions. When one side gives only lip service to that ideal, and then quickly demeans and dismisses the views of anyone who disagrees with them, and then does exactly what they want with no regard for the other side's view (and for now the Repubs do exactly that since they have the votes in Congress), then the REPUB side is the problem! Just because the Bushies claim the Dems are the problem, why do you believe them? > If the Democrats are to win elections, > including the White House > and if they are going to achieve anything when they > do, they will need > some of those very stupid Republicans to agree with > and vote for them. No, the Repub base will never vote for the Democrats. Bush's recent series of speeches was meant to keep them in line. It's unlikely such garbage would inspire anyone else. Bush wouldn't need to go on a publicity tour if his policies were genuinely successful, but I guess the Bushies think their base won't realize that. The people who may vote for the Dems this November are the ones I enjoy listening to, arguing with, and learning from... the Repubs who wonder about things and don't just take in whatever the Bushies tell them. > That so many people can be swayed to "speak out > against" something they > haven't even seen is just as illustrative of > propaganda as Republican > efforts of the same nature. No, people were upset about specific scenes in which the movie did not match what the Report said. Propaganda depends more on generalities. Where were you when Moore's 911 came out? Moore was at the Repub convention as a reporter, and just the mention of his name by John McCain caused booing throughout the hall. In an interview later, McCain was asked if he'd seen the movie and he said no, but he'd heard about it. Probably the only person in the thousands at the convention who HAD seen the movie was Moore himself. Now, that's successful progaganda! Some disclaimers: Democrats and the Democratic Party are not perfect, whatever that means to anybody. I never liked Old Bush or Reagan and disagreed with most of their policies, but when I talk about Repubs I'm talking only about the Bushies, who are so far from the traditional values of the Republican Party I don't know how even the repubs can stomach them. That's it, Brenda. More than I figured on writing, but you know, when the challenges are made.... oh, it's hard to resist responding when I have the time. Enjoy the show tonight! I'm not sure yet whether I'll be watching and since I won't be home tomorrow night, know that I won't be watching then... you know, when the movie will include all the scenes of Cheney holding secret energy meetings in the spring of 2001 and going over the maps of Iraq, and the scenes of Dubya cutting brush (for weeks at a time!) at his ranch, and how the Bushies did not want briefings or any info from the outgoing Clinton administration about bin Laden and al Qaeda, and how the Bushies' FIRST meeting about terrorism was on September 10, 2001... I think those would be my favorite scenes, LOL! And, guess what, they wouldn't have to be made up! Debra Shea, in NYC Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:35:31 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Simpsons season premiere (njc) Pure brilliance! This should be a good season... Victor NP: Louis Armstrong- Sugar Foot Stomp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 17:38:46 -0700 (PDT) From: dsknyc05 Subject: RE: njc, Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" - --- blckcrow@chorus.net wrote: > To me, the starkly different responses of > conservatives based on the content of these two > films reeks of the most blatant hypocrisy. Yes! And I'd throw into the mix Michael Moore's documentary, Fahrenheit 911. The Repubs in Congress went to court to keep him from showing ads on tv! Just ads! Repubs were told to not see that movie, and most of them didn't, and yet they (columnists, right-wing radio "entertainers", people on tv, people posting here) had all sorts of negative things to say about it. Funny how they all said the same things! Disney pulled out of the distribution deal with Moore because they didn't want to be involved in political controversy, but here they are willing to promote this movie. Big business likes the Bushies! > And no, > I'm not saying that liberals/Democrats aren't > capable of the same thing! We certainly are: maybe > that's just the nature of the political beast. All well said, Mary, except I can't agree with your ending statements. Yes, Moore has a viewpoint. He's upfront about that! And his documentary (and it was a documentary, not a docudrama) did not get onto tv. This "Based on the 9/11 Report" is by a self-described conservative, backed by a conservative group, and including made up scenes even though they claim it's based on our current authoritative source, and yet it gets on public tv. The traditional Repub agenda benefits big business and the relatively few very wealthy people, with maybe a little trickling down for everyone else. Since that's so few people the Repubs would never get elected into office if they were honest about their agenda, they have to be (and always have been) sneaky and dishonest. The current Repubs have taken that tendency to an extreme. > But I'm just calling it as I see it here. Since there's evidence to back up your view, I enjoy reading whatever you write. It's always more than "just an opinion." Thanks for jumping in. Debra Shea, in NYC Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 17:53:15 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: My Dead Angel njc - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nuriel Tobias" > Do you know what he did? He looked at the butterfly with disgust and told > me that according to the > Talmud butterflies are Lilith's creatures sent > from Hell to spy and distract Yeshiva boys, then took > an old book and smashed the butterly with it. Believe it, Randy - i saw > it with my own eyes. Do you > know what he did after that? He washed his > hands three times. Gotta love religion > The walls of every street in Jerusalem are covered with thousands of > posters signed by the leaders of the Orthodox. Here's exactly what's > written on them (I translated it to English): > "We order all members of our holy community to hurt and attack every gay > man and woman in the parade. A reward of 20000 Shekels would be given to > anyone who hurts or kills one of the gay men and women from Sodom. We > advice our sacred defenders to use home made bombs, knives, bricks, and > sticks with nails". So these would be the fundamentalist religious leaders? What does the government have to say? Have they made any condemnation (or endorsement) of this wickedness? Is it legal to circulate these posters? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:30:57 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow I love the Wizard of Oz, but I couldn't care less about Pink Floyd. My partner, Becky. has the Dark Side on CD and I run screaming from the room whenever she starts playing it. (At least both of us can agree about the excellence of Joni Mitchell--and Bob Dylan, too. "Modern Times" is an immortal masterpiece.) Richard - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Azeem Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 1:39 PM To: 'Bob Muller'; 'JMDL' Subject: RE: NJC Dark Side Of The Rainbow Bob wrote: << I had read about this for years but had never seen it. It's Pink Floyd's "Dark Side Of The Moon" synch'ed with "The Wizard Of Oz". It's definitely enjoyable if you're familiar with both of these classics, which I imagine most of us are. Some really fun and funny lyrical and musical synchro moments. >> Which reminds me: have you heard "Dub Side of the Moon" - a reggae reworking of the whole album by the Easy All-Stars? It's available on Emusic (as is their other album, Radiodread, which is - oh, I'm sure you can guess...) and sounds pretty good. Azeem in London - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.2/442 - Release Date: 08/09/2006 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 19:47:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: dan patlansky new album - sample tracks at yousendit - NJC Thanks, Ron - I really enjoyed them; not so much his vocal but man that slide is killer. Bob NP: PM Dawn, "I Hate Myself For You" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:42:37 -0700 From: Subject: Re: njc, Tell ABC "We Don't Need No More Lies!" Mary wrote: > Kakki wrote: > > "What is also so weird to me is that something like 200,000+ people who > have > not even seen Path to 9/11 are protesting it, not based on what they have > viewed, but because they have been directed to do so." > > To which I reply: Excuse me. "*Directed*??!" http://pol.moveon.org/abcdoc/ http://www.workingforchange.com/activism/action.cfm?itemid=21317 Exhorted a better word? To people who have not even had a chance to view the film? Just go on hearsay and send out your cards and letters ASAP!? I've been presented over the years with all kinds of these petitions and exhortations to sign mass petitions or send form emails from both left and right wing groups and have never done so, even if I agreed to some extent with their point of view. >This reminds me of the arguments after 9/11 and before the invasion of Iraq >that most or all of those in the street protesting U.S. military action >were doing so in >lemming-like compliance with the nefarious Marxist groups >who were supposedly organizing the demonstrations. Even if that last claim >were true (and, in at least >some cases, it apparently was), I'm glad that fact is finally being acknowledged. There were people here forwarding material straight from those groups to this list. I did not think the posters were Marxists, but did suspect they did not know the origins of the material they were forwarding. > most of the people I knew, including myself, didn't give a whip who was > doing the legwork of organizing the protests. We were out there to > express our own >feelings, and ONLY our own feelings. which were very, > very strong. I look at the current protests in much the same way. Of course. And the expressions of those feelings may be better considered by the people to whom you want to reach when they come from true grass roots groups rather than being compromised by association with fronts for other messages, no? > Did groups organize campaigns about the miniseries? Well, probably. Not probably, they did. The links above are just two of the many groups who organized the campaigns. > But I don't think anyone put a gun to anyone's head, forcing > participation. Of course not. > There's simply a lot of discontent out there, as one might expect when the > last >presidential election was so bitterly contested. Given an outlet to > express that >discontent, people will. Sure. > As far as "censorship" goes: IMO, that's a red herring. No, it's not. Maybe my post wasn't clear. >As you so correctly point out, the First Amendment deals with CONGRESS'S >right to restrict speech. There's been no governmental action here, and >none is >planned: pleas are being issued to a private entity not to air a >program that many find dangerous in its apparent historical inaccuracies >about a crucial period in >American history still fresh and painful in the >minds of many. That's not "censorship." Individuals protesting content is not censorship. What I wrote was that I thought a line was crossed when five Democratic party senators decided to send a letter to ABC making a veiled threat about broadcasting licenses in the second paragragh of the letter posted on their site here: http://democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=262624 To a lesser degree, while he is now a private citizen and not in an official government role, the fact that Clinton's lawyers sent a letter to ABC Friday concluding that "We expect that you will make the responsible decision to not this film." Wow. How more heavy-handed can you get? > NO ONE has seen it! Obviously some people did see it on advance - how else are they protesting what they saw portrayed?! I'm in the middle of watching the show right now. So far, I find it excellent, riveting and extremely well-done with no smarmy partisianship whatsoever displayed. It is pretty straight and dry, but not boring. If you have already watched it you probably saw the legal disclaimer at the beginning that I thought distinctly explained that it was not a documentary and that some dialog is fictionalized. > Finally, you attempt to distinguish between conservatives' responses to > the yanked Reagan biopic and liberals' responses to the 9/11 "docudrama." > To me, they're >distinctions without a difference. The distinction I wished to make is that it was not officially protested by Republicans in Congress and it was not banned from view nor edited. It was shown on Showtime. However, I think the comparison to the Reagan pic is a red herring. A better comparision would be reactions to and content of Fahrenheit 911 but I personally don't have the desire to go there. > To me, the starkly different responses of conservatives based on the > content of these two films reeks of the most blatant hypocrisy. Again, while many conservatives thought that the Reagan pic was kind of in sick taste, they did not want to ban it or edit it because, of course, that would be hypocritical to conservative ideals of constitutional freedoms. The conservatives this time were mostly concerned about congressional interference and once again having to watch Clinton try to make something way bigger than him all about him. Also, some people are disturbed by what seemd to be continual attempts by some on the left to try to suppress information or exhort us all to forget incidents from the Clinton years. Back to the show. I hope some will watch it. It is really pretty amazing. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #328 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------