From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #316 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, September 4 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 316 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Health care in the USA. NJC [Andeemac2006 ] NJC: Yet another August 30 birthday [] Re: Health care in the USA. NJC [Nuriel Tobias ] The Black Cat in the Black Mouse Socks [Nuriel Tobias ] crime rates and abortion NJC ["mike pritchard" ] Re: crime rates and abortion NJC ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Re: The Black Cat in the Black Mouse Socks [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Behind From Where We Came [Catherine McKay ] Re: Sarah McLachlan's "River" [Catherine McKay ] Re: Sarah McLachlan's "River" [Bob Muller ] madonna njc ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Behind From Where We Came ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Joni Covers, Volume 80 - September Songs [Mark-Leon Thorne ] RE: Behind From Where We Came [Nuriel Tobias ] RE: Behind From Where We Came [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Joni's Albums - Concept Albums? [Bryan ] RE: Behind From Where We Came ["Richard Flynn" ] RE: Behind From Where We Came [Nuriel Tobias ] River ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: NJC Re: Joni Mitchell, Susan Cowsill, and Michael Paz [Michael Paz ] * CLOSED: Perpetual Joni Covers Train: Volumes 61-70 of JM Covers ["Music] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 00:31:10 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Andeemac2006 Subject: Health care in the USA. NJC NJC. Nurielt confirmed all that I suspected but was not quite shure about, The only Organisation that wants to keep Health Care the ways it is, you guessed it the Republican party and the Rich and Richer,If you have been following the news of the last year or two GM and all the Airlines and a considerable amount of Companies in the USA want to be relieved of the noose, that is supplying Health Insurance to its Employees. So in reality the Democratic party voters want some sort of Minimal National Health Service, most Companies in the USA want a National Health Service and would love to cast aside everything to do with Health Insurance for there Employees, and it goes without saying that the 45 million people in the Usa that dont have any Health Insurance at the moment, want a National Health Service Now it would seem to me that if you add the factions in the last paragraph together you would have 70% of the People in the USA want a National Health Service, and only at the most 30% probably Republican, who dont want a National Health Service. I would love this to become a major issue in the up and coming Elections, and for the European system to be explained in a coherant way = Everybody I say Everybody from Birth is contracted into the National Health Service and you start paying money to the Government when you start work, this money is no more than People pay for Insurance!!! honestly!! The major Difference between the two systems is = You have No coverage and Hospitals refuse to treat you and at best give you Pieces of paper after examining you, and if you dont have the money to pay for a $90 dollar drug then thats tough. The other is = Your covered from birth you are treated at most Hospitals no matter what, and hopefully the Imporation of Medicines and Drugs from Canada are allowed to flow again up to and including Hospitals, thus allowing Doctors in the said Hospitals to give you minimally a weeks treatment cheaply before you leave the ER, now dosent that make sense????? Before Republicans spit venom, I would ask this is a free society so why should the Big Drug companies dictate to any Hospital where they get there Medicines from ????? Once again I find it continually disturbing that these so called Christian Republicans have no element of the Good Samaritan inside of them, its patently un Christian to fight to stop People in the USA from treating there fellow kindrid in the USA. All they want is to be healthy.!!! I for one cannot understand this logic. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:06:35 -0500 From: Subject: NJC: Yet another August 30 birthday OK--I've been experiencing computer woes and work deadlines, and I'm on digest, so please forgive me if this has been discussed to death already. But, unless I'm mistaken: isn't there another August 30 birthday we need to be celebrating? Didn't the JMDL itself turn a robust 10 years old yesterday?! And I might be off by a day or two, but not by much. So: Happiest of birthdays, JMDL! Thanks so much, Les Irvin, for your commitment, your comprehensiveness of focus, and your spirit. To all of you: thanks for the memories, the laughter, the occasional tears, the Joni sightings! Heartfelt thanks to those who are no longer with us in body, but who contributed so very much to our community. And thanks most of all to Joni Mitchell for giving us a body of work so challenging, so meaningful, so evocative, and so enjoyable that we're all still sitting around talking about it, 10 years after we started. Take care, everyone. And, in the words of Jamie Zoob, "much Joni!" Mary P., Madison, WI ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 02:47:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Health care in the USA. NJC Folks, although i've confirmed 1 or 2 suspicions in my life, i gotta say i honestly have no idea whatsoever what our friend here is talking about. Hugs, Nuri NP - Paprika Plains Andeemac wrote: "Nurielt confirmed all that i suspected but was not quite shure about. The only Organisation that wants to keep Health Care the ways it is, you guessed it the Republican party and the Rich and Richer, If you have been following the news of the last year or two GM and all the Airlines and a considerable amount of Companies in the USA want to be relieved of the noose, that is supplying Health Insurance to its Employees. So in reality the Democratic party voters want some sort of Minimal National Health Service, most Companies in the USA want a National Health Service and would love to cast aside everything to do with Health Insurance for there Employees, and it goes without saying that the 45 million people in the Usa that dont have any Health Insurance at the moment, want a National Health Service Now it would seem to me that if you add the factions in the last paragraph together you would have 70% of the People in the USA want a National Health Service, and only at the most 30% probably Republican, who dont want a National Health Service. I would love this to become a major issue in the up and coming Elections, and for the European system to be explained in a coherant way = Everybody I say Everybody from Birth is contracted into the National Health Service and you start paying money to the Government when you start work, this money is no more than People pay for Insurance!!! honestly!! The major Difference between the two systems is = You have No coverage and Hospitals refuse to treat you and at best give you Pieces of paper after examining you, and if you dont have the money to pay for a $90 dollar drug then thats tough. The other is = Your covered from birth you are treated at most Hospitals no matter what, and hopefully the Imporation of Medicines and Drugs from Canada are allowed to flow again up to and including Hospitals, thus allowing Doctors in the said Hospitals to give you minimally a weeks treatment cheaply before you leave the ER, now dosent that make sense????? Before Republicans spit venom, I would ask this is a free society so why should the Big Drug companies dictate to any Hospital where they get there Medicines from ????? Once again I find it continually disturbing that these so called Christian Republicans have no element of the Good Samaritan inside of them, its patently un Christian to fight to stop People in the USA from treating there fellow kindrid in the USA. All they want is to be healthy.!!! I for one cannot understand this logic. Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 03:12:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: The Black Cat in the Black Mouse Socks Has anyone seen the movie LOVE (1982) where Joni acted (!) as Paula in a segment named "The Black Cat in the Black Mouse Socks" which she also wrote? My oh my... I read it was a film written by women about love (duh!:), and i'm dying to know what Joni's segment was about, the script, how did she act, how did she look like, the reviews, the public, the popcorn, anything you know or would like to comment about it would be great! Thanks, Nuri Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:00:18 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: crime rates and abortion NJC When I read some months ago about Bill Bennett's remarks about 'aborting every black in order to reduce the crime rate', I paid little attention other than the initial outrage, but as I am well aware of what can be 'proved' with statistics, and as I didn't have the time or expertise to challenge his figures I went no further with this. Recently on holiday I read Levitt and Dubner's 'Freakonomics' and one chapter uses an enormous database and draws similar conclusions; similar in that Levitt claims Roe vs Wade was the real reason for the drop in crime in the 1990s. Not something I wanted to read but I do believe that the 'truth' in general, if that's what it is, should be listened to, however uncomfortable it makes us feel. I wanted to read more about Levitt's methodology and database but have not read it yet (there is a 60 page pdf file available which obviously goes into greater detail than mentioned in the book). Two days ago I read a Guardian article on Tony Blair in which he said it 'was possible to identify problem children who could grow up to be a potential "menace to society" even before they are born', and Blair 'defended the need for state intervention and said action could even be taken "pre-birth" if necessary as families with drug and alcohol problems were being identified too late'. That makes three sources saying more or less the same thing. Can anyone out there tell me the reaction and/or backlash to Bennett and Levitt's articles? I haven't seen any backlash or comments yet on Blair's remarks, but I'd like to know if anything was/is happening in the USA, especially from black communities or black academics on this matter. mike in barcelona np Jack Neilson - Here I go Again ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 08:14:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: crime rates and abortion NJC I thought Leavitt's book was awful. He took one interesting statement (notice I did not say fact) and stretched it into a sloppy, repetitive book. His statement includes all abortions, not just those of one race. And though it is true that crime rates dropped as abortions rose, there is no way to prove a link. And it is also true, but ignored in his book, that abortion rates have dropped significantly in the last decade while crime rates have continued to drop. Jerry - pro choice and anti crime! mike pritchard wrote: > When I read some months ago about Bill Bennett's remarks about 'aborting > every > black in order to reduce the crime rate', I paid little attention other > than > the initial outrage, but as I am well aware of what can be 'proved' with > statistics, and as I didn't have the time or expertise to challenge his > figures I went no further with this. Recently on holiday I read Levitt and > Dubner's 'Freakonomics' and one chapter uses an enormous database and > draws > similar conclusions; similar in that Levitt claims Roe vs Wade was the > real > reason for the drop in crime in the 1990s. Not something I wanted to read > but > I do believe that the 'truth' in general, if that's what it is, should be > listened to, however uncomfortable it makes us feel. I wanted to read more > about Levitt's methodology and database but have not read it yet (there is > a > 60 page pdf file available which obviously goes into greater detail than > mentioned in the book). Two days ago I read a Guardian article on Tony > Blair > in which he said it 'was possible to identify problem children who could > grow > up to be a potential "menace to society" even before they are born', and > Blair > 'defended the need for state intervention and said action could even be > taken > "pre-birth" if necessary as families with drug and alcohol problems were > being > identified too late'. That makes three sources saying more or less the > same > thing. Can anyone out there tell me the reaction and/or backlash to > Bennett > and Levitt's articles? I haven't seen any backlash or comments yet on > Blair's > remarks, but I'd like to know if anything was/is happening in the USA, > especially from black communities or black academics on this matter. > mike in barcelona > np Jack Neilson - Here I go Again ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 09:16:52 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Albums - Concept Albums? Regarding the long "concept albums" thread, Bob M summarized: "Then again, you could probably debate your way through arguing the concept of every project she's done. Like Em said, every project represents a period and is unlike the records that preceded & followed it." I am not too interested in refining the concept of a concept album, or of debating precisely what Joni's concept for a particular album may have been. But the question of whether Joni had preconceived concepts of unified themes for her 'next album' interests me. I have no doubt (I could hedge with "little doubt", but I'd be misrepresenting) that Joni had a very definite concept about every one of her projects, in terms of how it would be presented artistically. In each case, it seems to me, there is an internal consistency of the "sound" of the recording - a musical "wash", if you will - and a method to the madness of the order of the songs, even if they were not initially conceived within a single common theme or in a logical, sequential manner. But was there a preconceived lyrical theme ? I think that a look at her early albums is fun. I think that Joni attempted to structure STAS a la mode of the titles of its two sides. Clearly, she succeeded with side one - I Came to the City. While Michael From Mountains paints a pictures that could be urban or suburban ('they splash home to suppers in wallpapered kitchens, their mothers will scold"), the other songs are plainly set in the city, and that city experience - so much a part of her then current life experience - was hauntingly - and beautifully - captured in those songs. The songs on Side two were arguably a bit harder to pigeonhole, though. So, "Out of the City and Down to the Seashore" may have been a "best effort" to unify the subtitles with reference to the underlying songs. Sisotowbell Lane was especially problematic, since it seems to be set in the prarie (or is it the mountains ?) "At the woodlands and the grasslands and the badlands 'cross the river..... Sisotowbell Lane Go to the city you'll come back again To wade thru the grain................. Come back to the stars Sweet well water and pickling jars..." The next three songs are set at the seaside, though, and Cactus Tree ties sides one and two together in a sort of theatrical - yet personal - finale. Was this structure preconceived ? As Eliott Roberts noted "artistically, she knew what she wanted; she wasn't looking for input". He also noted that, by the time she recorded STAS, she had written many of the songs that would appear on her first three albums. I suspect that, with a relatively broad collection of songs to work with, Joni picked the ones she did for STAS at least partly because she wanted songs that fit the lyrical theme she had selected for the project. With the next two albums, I got the sense that Joni was finding a place for the other songs that had already been written, surrounding them with some new efforts that seemed to mesh reasonably well with them (or perhaps vice versa). From Blue onward, I sensed that there was more unity lyrically than with Clouds and LOTC - perhaps because from that point on Joni recorded songs that were all written close together in time. Still, until DED, I think that Joni was more or less writing individual songs that reflected her experiences during that period her life (the inclusion of Little Green in Blue was a notable exception, but I would guess that memory was weighing heavily on her mind at that time). That currency of thought, in turn, imparted a sense of unity without the kind of "concept" one finds in a rock album like Tommy or even in Sgt. Peppers or Abbey Road, which seem less personal - yet are nevertheless strangely intimate - in nature. Some might see a break with DED and Chalkmark, as Joni wrote less about herself and more about society and the human condition. That carried over to some extent even in NRH and certainly in Turbulent Indigo. However, once again, I sense that Joni was simply writing about what was mattering most to her during those periods in her life. Mostly, one song at a time. If a certain topic was on her mind a lot, one might get two or three songs that seemed related (THOSL and Harry's House, for example, with shades found in In France They Kiss on Mainstreet). Or in Blue, with the travelling songs against the failed relationships. Or in FTR with the two "side-enders" about the tribulations of the artist, and the JT connection. Or in her Hejira travels. Clearly, BSN and Travelogue were preconceived projects. BSN had the relationship theme, and Travelogue was an effort to revisit and document for posterity - in orchestral form - a collection of many of her most important songs. But there was no new material, unlike Tommy et al. So, maybe Joni's albums aren't "concept albums", but nobody had a better concept of how to put recordings together than Joni. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 06:30:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: NJC Re: * Perpetual Joni Covers Train: Volumes 61-70 of JM Covers Thanks for spearheading the effort, Eric - a couple of people have asked me about catching up, so this is a good step in that direction. Bob NP: Bob Dylan, "If You See Her, Say Hello" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 06:42:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: The Black Cat in the Black Mouse Socks I've got it on video, Nuri - it is so bad it is painful to watch. The only redeeming features are the musical intro and outro for the film, in which Joni offers up a couple of alternate versions of her WTRF song "Love". Bob NP: The Beatles, "One After 909" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 07:01:19 -0700 (PDT) From: MattJones Subject: Re: Joni Concept Albums I am surprised no one mentioned DJRD as a concept album....Am I the only one who hears the getting ready for a night out (overture/ cotton ave), the encounter with Mr. Mystery (talk to me), the blissful moment of "this may actually work out this time" (jerico), the retreat and reverie (paprika plains), spinning off into a fantasy of traveling (a Hejira leftover?) and the frightening visions of a future "beneath the blade" (oits & marlena, the tenth world, dreamland), that dissonant breakthrough that happens on all Joni's albums (Don Juan's....), the inevitable decline of the relationship (off night) and musing at a distance, spinning the experience into a warning (silky veils). I think this is the best organized narrative in all joni's albums, which in some way or another on their own, could be considered "concept" albums. There's my two cents and a very clumsy synopsis of a section of my thesis, a little bait for those of you who've been waiting patiently for so so long. And if this idea turns up in a book or article somewhere else, I better get some credit for it! My CV could use the citations! (that's a [bad] grad student joke, laugh: ha ha ha. those funny grad students). Happy Listening! Matt, in Athens. rats live on no evil star - --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 08:34:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: The Black Cat in the Black Mouse Socks Bob Muller wrote: acted (!) as Paula in a segment named "The Black Cat in the Black Mouse Socks" which she also wrote?> I've got it on video, Nuri - it is so bad it is painful to watch. The only redeeming features are the musical intro and outro for the film, in which Joni offers up a couple of alternate versions of her WTRF song "Love". You know what? I'm kind of pleased to hear that. Acting and acting-related media is basically "The Art of Manipulation" as the ancient Greek said. Bertolt Brecht said that "Empty-minded and hollow people are the best pretenders and fakers and therefore the best actors". George Bernard Show said that "If you can't be phony - don't act". I've been surrounded by and working with professional actors since i was 13, and most, if not all of them, think the same thing about themselves. It's not that they are mean or stupid - well some of them are but some of them are good and clever people - it's just that they know what their profession demands of them and they're very aware of their "gift". Infact, 99% of the movies/plays that deal in "Actors" and "The Industry" are ABOUT that - phony actors pretending that they're phony actors who pretend that they're characters that pretned they're real people. It's not a curse - it's just that this kind of art is based on manipulations - every actor, playwright, script writer and director learns that on the first day. Joni is simply too true to deal with that. Her art is based on "hardcore" truth. Writing and composing lyrics and songs like Joni does - is not at all like writing a script and acting in it, even, or should i say, especially if she does that. I'm not saying that Joni doesn't sometimes "acts" in her songs - but singing in a studio or on stage is miles away from the movies scene. These days everything is mixed up. Singers dream about becoming actors while actors dream about becoming musicians. So the pure need for brilliant manipulations in acting/films/plays is now cheap manipulations in every art form - producing music, sounds, writing books, painting, dancing and so on - it's all about manipulating. It seems like everyting is acting and cinematic. You know, i could tell you how some of them do this or that better or worse, but in the end Joni is anything but everyone and like Andeemac says - I dare you to disagree, is that understood, do tell me please, no room for interpretations, in Jesus name. Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 09:20:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Behind From Where We Came Sorry to bother you with this question, but it seems we may have an "issue" here:) The Circle Game lyric "(look) behind from where we came". Is that proper English, "spoken" English, or a "blooper"? Shouldn't it be "Look behind to where we came from"? Or is the way Joni writes it common in the USA? As far as i know there's no "behind from" in English (I think?) - and if the "from" relates to "look" and not to "behind", then Guy, my mate, (who urged me to post you guys about this) claims that there's a "Major Logic Issue". He deals with math, you see, and since the chorus of this song deals in "Circles and moving in circles", he found a serious problem with what's going on there. I've listened to him for sometime now, and he made some damn good points, believe me that it can cause your mind some heavy-heavy thinking and a big-big headache, but it all depends first on rather the "(look) behind from where we came" lyric is a blooper, slang, way of speaking or proper English. For everyone's sake i hope the lyric is OK or else you'd soon find yourself involved in the craziest circle game ever with this post being only the tip of the iceberg.:) Hugs, Nuri - --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:03:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Behind From Where We Came - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Sorry to bother you with this question, but it seems > we may have an "issue" here:) > > The Circle Game lyric "(look) behind from where we > came". Is that proper English, "spoken" English, or > a "blooper"? Shouldn't it be "Look behind to where > we came from"? Or is the way Joni writes it common > in the USA? I don't think it's incorrect, but it's not normal usage either. If you wanted to be grammatically correct, but also really old-fashioned, you'd say, "behind to (the place from) whence we came", but no one talks like that. You would probably say, as you've said, "behind, to where we came from". I think Joni was trying to fit the meter and the rhyme but then, knowing Joni, maybe she wanted there to be more than one meaning, including one that seems to defy logic. Now I'm confused. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:17:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Sarah McLachlan's "River" - --- Bob Muller wrote: > It comes out October 17 - but you can hear it > right now (and it IS very lovely): > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulr7MPyhPaY > > Bob > Did you get any video off this, or just darkness, darkness, no colour, no contrast? I think it sounds lovely, but the comments left by people at the site are pretty negative - they say "it's too poppy and produced" and so on. Maybe they don't care for songs with strings added. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 10:47:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Sarah McLachlan's "River" No, there wasn't a video, it was just the audio. Very artistic! Or maybe she was singing about the same River that The Doobies sang about in Black Water. Reminded me of the video that The Replacements made of nothing but a speaker thumping along to the song. And perusing ebay this AM, it also appears that there's a release of River as a single. Ka-ching for Joni. Bob NP: The Flaming Lips, "Yoshimi Battles The Pink Robots, Pt. 1" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 10:58:10 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: madonna njc >And Maddona is a good Keyboard player and Writes all her own songs, which most are very good.< Not sure how much input she has on the 'songs she writes' ... I remember Patrick somebody wrote a lot of her songs early one... in the music biz, a nonperforming songwriter can write most of the song, the artist can add some lyric changes or maybe a melody change & then they work it out as to how to attribute the songwriting credit- often the artist can negotiate more credit that they actually had input on because, well, they are the famous artist!... so unless you know madonna or her cowriters personally you have no way of knowing how much of a songwriter she really is... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 14:05:52 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Behind From Where We Came As Bob Dylan sang: "If you're lookin' to get silly / you better go back to from where you came." Why worry about whether song lyrics are grammatically correct, fergoshsakes? - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Catherine McKay Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 1:04 PM To: Nuriel Tobias; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Behind From Where We Came - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Sorry to bother you with this question, but it seems > we may have an "issue" here:) > > The Circle Game lyric "(look) behind from where we > came". Is that proper English, "spoken" English, or > a "blooper"? Shouldn't it be "Look behind to where > we came from"? Or is the way Joni writes it common > in the USA? I don't think it's incorrect, but it's not normal usage either. If you wanted to be grammatically correct, but also really old-fashioned, you'd say, "behind to (the place from) whence we came", but no one talks like that. You would probably say, as you've said, "behind, to where we came from". I think Joni was trying to fit the meter and the rhyme but then, knowing Joni, maybe she wanted there to be more than one meaning, including one that seems to defy logic. Now I'm confused. Catherine Toronto - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 06:35:42 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Joni Covers, Volume 80 - September Songs Another excellent collection, Bob. Cher's, BYT was a touch of nostalgia for me. I had all but forgotten about this. I loved the Sonny and Cher Show when I was a kid. The animation was kooky too. Thanks for this one. Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 16:53:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: Behind From Where We Came - --- Richard Flynn wrote: > As Bob Dylan sang: > > "If you're lookin' to get silly / you better go back > to from where you > came." > > > Why worry about whether song lyrics are > grammatically correct, fergoshsakes? > I never even thought about it until Nuri asked. And if English isn't his first language, it might not be so easy to get. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 14:18:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: RE: Behind From Where We Came Richard Flynn wrote: "Why worry about whether song lyrics are grammatically correct, fergoshsakes?" Who's worried? After all these years that this good old song seemed to be as naive, simple and guileless as the child it's about, while old folks shed a nostalgic tear and kids in schools all over the world sing it in choirs - we're re-opening the case and having fun!:) It's not about grammar at all, Rich, but we must understand the grammar issue first before we can enjoy a brilliant logic game that Joni amazingly planted in it. It's gonne be fun, i promise.:) Now back to you, Catherine - You say that - "I don't think it's incorrect, but it's not normal usage either. If you wanted to be grammatically correct, but also really old-fashioned, you'd say, "behind to (the place from) whence we came", but no one talks like that. You would probably say, as you've said, "behind, to where we came from". I think Joni was trying to fit the meter and the rhyme but then, knowing Joni, maybe she wanted there to be more than one meaning, including one that seems to defy logic. Now I'm confused." It may be incorrect, and it may be correct. Google, however, finds 1 "Behind from where we came" which is a title of a book that was clearly referring to the song, and ALL the other results are Joni's Circle Game. There's no signs whatsoever that it's in usage in English. But let's not decide anything before we hear what others have to say and mainly - check out the other option which, imho, has to be correct and most of all - is under our wise-guy's nose. There's no "behind from" in English. And no matter what both of us say - it is not about looking behind TO where we came from, which is why up to this moment 10000000 of people still consider this lyric, written by the queen of a generation of hippies tripping it's way to eternity, a Yidish lullaby about "the past". Just kidding!:) But there's the obvious "look from" - that's 100% correct. (No "to" replaces the "from" - and btw we look "at" and not "to", so i'm sure it's has nothing to do with looking at the past or at a place we left behind.) Bare with me and you'll see that i'm pointing at the only way this lyric is grammatically correct without changing a single word she wrote. Instead of trying to figure out what "behind from" is - If the "from" relates to the "look" - as in "Only from where we came we can look behind" - than there's no grammar issue at all! Do you agree that this is the only way this lyric is grammatically correct? Sure you do - it's 100% correct and very simple (at least grammatically-wise). But if you indeed agree, then THIS is where the amazing logic thing that Joni planted shines at last. It has nothing to do with grammar. The grammar issue ended. It's a painting of movement forward in time AND movement round and round in circles at the SAME time which Guy was clever enough to spot. It's the real mystery of the circle game that finally pulls this song out of it's "cliche" into the dream-like world of Joni - a vision of time and space, of growing older without aging a bit, of moving forward while returning back, a logic riddle that science (since the days of Einstein) deals with but no songwriter other than Joni does. I'll go on in my next post and hopefully we can all talk about it and help eachother undrestand as much as we can, but before we do, i think we should hear more about the grammar issue and then feel free to dive inside. Now you should start worrying, Richard:) http://britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/escher/relativity.jpg http://britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/escher/relativity.jpg http://www.tessellations.org/galleries-escher/1944-encounter.jpg Nuri - --------------------------------- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 14:36:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: RE: Behind From Where We Came Catherine McKay wrote: - --- Richard Flynn wrote: > As Bob Dylan sang: > > "If you're lookin' to get silly / you better go back > to from where you > came." > > > Why worry about whether song lyrics are > grammatically correct, fergoshsakes? > I never even thought about it until Nuri asked. And if English isn't his first language, it might not be so easy to get. Which is why many folks like me don't take English for granted and are more likely to seriously explore it instead of slanging it away:) Did you read my reply, guys? Nuri - --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 14:54:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Bryan Subject: Re: Joni's Albums - Concept Albums? >HOSL - Once again, i agree with you, Bob. It's hard to agree, i >guess, because how can anyone say it's not a concept album when Joni herself >says it's a concept album, but i agree with you. Well, I don't think Joni said HOSL was a concept album. She said it was "conceived as a whole" (see liner notes). Not quite the same thing. Perhaps an accidental, organic kind of concept, if you know what I mean. In fact, I don't have the CD to refer to right now, but I think she said it happened "accidentally." Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 19:03:13 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Behind From Where We Came I was trying to be lighthearted and humorous, but I obviously failed to communicate that. Carry on with the analysis! - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Nuriel Tobias Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 5:18 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Behind From Where We Came Richard Flynn wrote: "Why worry about whether song lyrics are grammatically correct, fergoshsakes?" Who's worried? After all these years that this good old song seemed to be as naive, simple and guileless as the child it's about, while old folks shed a nostalgic tear and kids in schools all over the world sing it in choirs - we're re-opening the case and having fun!:) It's not about grammar at all, Rich, but we must understand the grammar issue first before we can enjoy a brilliant logic game that Joni amazingly planted in it. It's gonne be fun, i promise.:) Now back to you, Catherine - You say that - "I don't think it's incorrect, but it's not normal usage either. If you wanted to be grammatically correct, but also really old-fashioned, you'd say, "behind to (the place from) whence we came", but no one talks like that. You would probably say, as you've said, "behind, to where we came from". I think Joni was trying to fit the meter and the rhyme but then, knowing Joni, maybe she wanted there to be more than one meaning, including one that seems to defy logic. Now I'm confused." It may be incorrect, and it may be correct. Google, however, finds 1 "Behind from where we came" which is a title of a book that was clearly referring to the song, and ALL the other results are Joni's Circle Game. There's no signs whatsoever that it's in usage in English. But let's not decide anything before we hear what others have to say and mainly - check out the other option which, imho, has to be correct and most of all - is under our wise-guy's nose. There's no "behind from" in English. And no matter what both of us say - it is not about looking behind TO where we came from, which is why up to this moment 10000000 of people still consider this lyric, written by the queen of a generation of hippies tripping it's way to eternity, a Yidish lullaby about "the past". Just kidding!:) But there's the obvious "look from" - that's 100% correct. (No "to" replaces the "from" - and btw we look "at" and not "to", so i'm sure it's has nothing to do with looking at the past or at a place we left behind.) Bare with me and you'll see that i'm pointing at the only way this lyric is grammatically correct without changing a single word she wrote. Instead of trying to figure out what "behind from" is - If the "from" relates to the "look" - as in "Only from where we came we can look behind" - than there's no grammar issue at all! Do you agree that this is the only way this lyric is grammatically correct? Sure you do - it's 100% correct and very simple (at least grammatically-wise). But if you indeed agree, then THIS is where the amazing logic thing that Joni planted shines at last. It has nothing to do with grammar. The grammar issue ended. It's a painting of movement forward in time AND movement round and round in circles at the SAME time which Guy was clever enough to spot. It's the real mystery of the circle game that finally pulls this song out of it's "cliche" into the dream-like world of Joni - a vision of time and space, of growing older without aging a bit, of moving forward while returning back, a logic riddle that science (since the days of Einstein) deals with but no songwriter other than Joni does. I'll go on in my next post and hopefully we can all talk about it and help eachother undrestand as much as we can, but before we do, i think we should hear more about the grammar issue and then feel free to dive inside. Now you should start worrying, Richard:) http://britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/escher/relativity.jpg http://britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/escher/relativity.jpg http://www.tessellations.org/galleries-escher/1944-encounter.jpg Nuri - --------------------------------- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 16:33:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: RE: Behind From Where We Came Richard Flynn wrote: "I was trying to be lighthearted and humorous, but I obviously failed to communicate that. Carry on with the analysis!" *Nuri sends Richard a hug and a warm njc "Here's to you" signal* Nuri Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 19:54:29 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: River http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulr7MPyhPaY Thanks Bob, It is so very great. . I am listening to it over and over. . Joni is . . . . . . . . This song makes me want to go to Amsterdam. Is it true you can skate up and down the rivers there? XOXO Marianne (sung by Sara McLachlan) >It comes out October 17 - but you can hear it right now (and it IS very lovely): >Bob _________________________________________________________________ Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now! http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 19:26:49 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: NJC Re: Joni Mitchell, Susan Cowsill, and Michael Paz Hi All It was absolutely fantastic. Standing beside her playing guitar whilst she sang was heaven. I mistakenly called the series Under The Covers (perhaps a Freudian slip or wishful thinking) it is actually called Covered in Vinyl. No matter, it was a gas. The place was packed to the rafters. At 10:40 we started with Court and Spark and it ended all to soon after that with Twisted. Everyone was very receptive and it is encouraging that there are so many people out there that still love Joni. I ran into a lot of people I have not seen in ages. Her band was very happy to have me on the few cuts that I did cause to my knowledge of the tunings etc AND I had the sheet music. LOL! They did have a computer rolling and the sound guy promised to get me copies. During the second set Susan got up and player with her band again and played mostly originals, but then decided to take requests and did some amazing covers. She invited me back to the stage to do some more Joni so we sang "You Turn Me ON" as a duet and then I did "Love Puts on A New Face with her band while she sat in front to the stage and watched. I gushed of course and foamed at the mouth and went back out in the audience to enjoy more of her set. She did a beautiful acapella cover of Karla Bonoff's Falling Star ad well as some Lucinda Williams, and Angel From Montgomery. She asked me up yet again and we did a reprise of "Just Like This Train" which was better than the first time and she said I should keep on going so I suggested we do one of Joni's boyfriends tunes which she thought was a great idea. I played piano and we dueted on "Don't Let Me Be Lonely Tonight". By this point I was practically melting. What a voice!!!!!! I have been in a kind of euphoria all day and have just managed to get to the puter and post about it. Have a great Labor Day everyone! Love Paz NP-Circle Game-Richard Flynn > Be sure to roll those DAT's, Michael - so we can > all enjoy it. I actually saw this show advertised > this AM, was going to mention it to you and then > figured that you were probably already involved. > > Bob > > NP: Tyler Yarema, "Big Yellow Taxi" > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 23:00:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: Behind From Where We Came - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > It's a painting of movement forward in time AND > movement round and round in circles at the SAME time > which Guy was clever enough to spot. There was a guy that used to sing "The circle game" at Mass when I was young. My Dad didn't think it was appropriate, because he figured that the circle image was a pagan one, and that the Christian view was apparently more like a spiral. I didn't care. Someone was singing Joni at Mass. That was good enough for me and it kept me awake. "Round and round and round in the spiral game." Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 22:21:20 -0500 From: "Music Is Special" Subject: * CLOSED: Perpetual Joni Covers Train: Volumes 61-70 of JM Covers Discs are going first to Brian Gross Several others also asked for them. He will pass them along when finished. Eric - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Music Is Special" To: "Joni List" Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:54 PM Subject: * Perpetual Joni Covers Train: Volumes 61-70 of JM Covers > In order to enable latecomers to the list or new traders have a > chance of listening to Bob Muller's incredible compilation of covers > of Joni's songs here is the latest round of the Perpetual Joni Covers > Trains. > > For those not familiar with trading trains, here is how they work: > When the disks come to you, you make copies of as much of the > contents as you want, and then you post back to > this list offering to pass the disks along to the next person. You do not > keep the originals -- you keep the copies you made for yourself. On most > trains, the convention is that you make the copies and send the masters > along within two days. For these trains, you must agree to turn them > around > within one week. Sometimes the offer goes unclaimed. Bob and I expect > that > to happen from time to time. So, by participating, you agree to just hang > on to the disks and then make another offer a month or so later (or to > respond if somebody posts a grovel looking for them). In theory, if > everybody takes good care of the disks, wrapping them well, not letting > them > get scratched, etc. and passes them along, these covers will run on the > tracks for years. Nobody is going to monitor the progress of these trains > so if you participate and then lose the disks or fail to reoffer them, you > will have kept others from enjoying them. When you post an offer, please > include > these "rules". One final note, I know a few folks like to compress these > into MP3s. If you want to, go ahead but please do not send MP3s to the > next > person - MP3s permanently delete some of the "data" and sound > quality degrades so please pass the masters along. > > So, anybody who would like to receive volumes 51-60, please send me: > 1. Your mailing address and > 2. Your promise to reoffer, etc. > > Enjoy and have a nice weekend, Eric > > > P.S. If you are sitting on any of the earlier rounds, please offer them > up again as its > been a year and new folks might be interested. Thanks ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #316 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------