From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #306 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, August 27 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 306 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Draft (njc) [Brenda ] RE: Draft (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Enough Said (not) - NJC ["patrick leader" ] Re: Warner Bros pulls Joni videos from Utube [Brenda ] Re: Enough Said (not) - NJC [Brenda ] Re: Draft (njc) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Warner Bros pulls Joni videos from Utube [Brenda Subject: Re: Draft (njc) Kate, Likewise, the point I'm trying to make is that American history and world history for that matter are not hidden from anyone. Most of the people I know who are serving or have served in the military, both family and friends, understand that it is far from an easy option and compared to the risk, the pay isn't that great. Despite that, some have even re-upped. This is my personal experience so it's hard for me to be cynical about their choices because I've not walked in their shoes. I partied behind ivy-covered walls while they fought off sleep deprivation in basic training. I feel certain that the troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and other parts of the world are a mix of those who completely understood the gravity of their choice and those who thought it would be like a video game. I can't speak to "many," "some" or any other proportion because I doubt that either you or I know what that proportion actually is. Ultimately, we have free will and we have to assume personal responsibility for our own choices, even those made hastily in our youth, despite long-standing marketing efforts or other influences. We have a lot of freedom to educate ourselves and a myriad of free resources with which to do it. Not delving into the history is a choice. Service is a choice as well and I've not in any way indicated that it is any higher then teaching or healing. But it is a choice nevertheless. Kate Bennett wrote: > > Hi Brenda, > > > > The point I am trying to make is that many kids believe the marketing > & commercials & don't delve into the history, especially when they are > given a huge check to sign on the dotted line... every kid I know who > has joined has not spent a lot of time contemplating the decision.. > BTW, I said some kids join because its cool, & some join for various > other reasons. Not all. > > > > And I'll admit I am very cynical when I hear how people join to serve > their country. How is serving in the military any more or less > serving your country than teaching, or going into medicine, etc etc > They are choosing a career that pays them in return. Yes they are at > great risk, yes they deserve what they get in return but I think few > who join really understand the risks. At least that has been my > experience in talking to veterans from several wars over the past > couple decades including this one. Most had a very romantic image of > what they were going in to do & if they made it out alive & healthy > (talking about those in wars), they saw how naove they were. I think > what gets me upset the most is that the military is the best paying & > easiest option for so many kids. It says a lot about our culture. > > > > Kate & Randy, > > I'm not the least bit naive about how the military sells itself or > that those who appear to be adults are still kids. But a military, > any military, serves a basic core purpose regardless of marketing and > commercials. This purpose is centuries old and anyone who puts their > nose in a history book knows that. Nothing prevents them from seeking > that sense of history before they join. It's not at all beyond the > grasp of a 14 or 15 year old, let alone a 17 or 18 year old. > > And to say that kids join because they think it's "cool" is really a > generalization. Some join because they want to serve, they understand > what it means and they are proud of that service. The reasons are not > easily or uniformly summed up as you list them below. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/428 - Release Date: 8/25/2006 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:33:53 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Draft (njc) Brenda, By easy option, what I mean is that it is easy to 'get hired'. For a kid out of high school or who didn't finish high school & who grows tired of working at the minimum wage job & who has no means of getting a college education, the money offered him or her up front is a huge amount. This thread originated with recruitment & all my points I am trying to make is about that. Of course everything is a choice, that is a given & the only responsible way to live. However, I'd like to see our children have better choices. That said, I also have friends & family who have done well in the military. I also know some who have not. Kate Kate, Likewise, the point I'm trying to make is that American history and world history for that matter are not hidden from anyone. Most of the people I know who are serving or have served in the military, both family and friends, understand that it is far from an easy option and compared to the risk, the pay isn't that great. Despite that, some have even re-upped. This is my personal experience so it's hard for me to be cynical about their choices because I've not walked in their shoes. I partied behind ivy-covered walls while they fought off sleep deprivation in basic training. I feel certain that the troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and other parts of the world are a mix of those who completely understood the gravity of their choice and those who thought it would be like a video game. I can't speak to "many," "some" or any other proportion because I doubt that either you or I know what that proportion actually is. Ultimately, we have free will and we have to assume personal responsibility for our own choices, even those made hastily in our youth, despite long-standing marketing efforts or other influences. We have a lot of freedom to educate ourselves and a myriad of free resources with which to do it. Not delving into the history is a choice. Service is a choice as well and I've not in any way indicated that it is any higher then teaching or healing. But it is a choice nevertheless. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 00:35:35 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Enough Said (not) - NJC dear b (does that stand for brenda?) i just want to say it's fantastic to have you contributing to the list again, the depth of knowledge and insight is terrific. regarding your fascinating earlier comments about rose royce, i don't think it negates bob's point: that if that other guy is citing rose royce to prove his point that 'they don't make 'em like that any more' he's stretching. rose royce was great, but citing their influence on mary j. blige just reminded me of what a fantastic artist she is, proving that brilliant new talents are still rising in this very different time. however, i'm putting a rose royce greatest hits cd on my mental wish list. 'wishing on a star' had a definite second run in new york clubs between '90 and '92. i also liked your comments about how differently black artists were marketed in the '60s. growing up listening to san francisco bay area radio, i did hear the great motown singles, and sly, stevie wonder and earth wind and fire were major loves of mine in high school (and continue to be now) like most of the people on this list, i'm a music slut, but i never heard etta james until the late '80s, and i was shocked. i bought several collections of singles and the fantastic 1967 album 'tell mama', and i immediately recognized that she was the single strongest influence on janis, but i remember thinking 'why didn't i hear this stuff on the radio when it was first released?'. i even remember first hearing her version of 'i would rather go blind', recognizing that rod stewart had covered it, and being angry that pop radio hadn't served it to me in 1967. it taught me an important lesson about how music was distributed in the '60s, and your insights brought it up again. thanks, patrick np - dawn upshaw, stay well (kurt weill) >I don't think the difference between the top sellers of 2005 and 1969 has as much to do with the black middle class as it does the way black artists were marketed in 1969. Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye were among the first to fight to be treated and marketed as album artists when so many (besides Hendrix and Sly Stone) were seen as singles artists only. And that happened around '71. ** and, worth quoting again ** Funny enough<>, the intro of "Car Wash" with those hand claps has propelled the song to be one of the most sampled ever, only surpassed by the likes of James Brown and George Clinton/Parliament/Funkadelic. Never mind the influence on contemporary R&B and hip hop of songs like "Love Don't Live Here Anymore," "Wishing On A Star," "I Wanna Get Next To You" and "I'm Going Down" which was a smash for Mary J. Blige almost 20 years later, yielding an award-winning video that has become an iconic moment of her 12+ year career. Norman Whitfield remains one of the most under-appreciated songwriters/producers of the late '60's and 70's, who constantly pushed boundaries at Motown. Rose Royce were as much his instrument of expression as the Temptations were. That's the challenge with these kinds of discussions. There's a reasonable angle to more positions than what's immediately visible at first glance. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:48:09 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: Warner Bros pulls Joni videos from Utube Michael Flaherty wrote: > Michael O'Malley wrote: >As if someone is going to make money from these or what ? Feels > pretty cheap to me, especially since it is so obviously a fan driven site. > > If they want to release "The Joni Videos" dvd, I'm ready to buy it. If not, what do they care? > > Cheap is the right word. > > Michael Flaherty > YouTube is already making money from advertising for the aggregate of content that it has and if it's sold to another bigger company will undoubtedly make billions. Shouldn't some of this go back to the people whose work is being used on the site to draw a crowd in the first place, even if the number of viewings are proportionately very small compared to lonelygirl15's video about being "really, really excited?" YouTube knows that this is the case which is why they are negotiating with labels, publishers and television companies now so that they can legally show music videos and live performances. B np: ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:58:39 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: Draft (njc) Kate, I understood what you meant by easy. Truth is that there are other things that are easy to get hired at that also are more lucrative than minimum wage but likewise they have their associated cost. Likewise I understand that this thread is about recruitment and I don't feel we've strayed from it. Ultimately, the response to being recruited (or marketed to) is an individual one that is grounded in each person's sense of morality and personal responsibility regardless of the means by which that recruitment or marketing comes to them. That's what I truly believe and perhaps that is where we depart. B Kate Bennett wrote: > Brenda, > > > > By easy option, what I mean is that it is easy to 'get hired'. For a kid > out of high school or who didn't finish high school & who grows tired of > working at the minimum wage job & who has no means of getting a college > education, the money offered him or her up front is a huge amount. This > thread originated with recruitment & all my points I am trying to make is > about that. Of course everything is a choice, that is a given & the only > responsible way to live. However, I'd like to see our children have better > choices. That said, I also have friends & family who have done well in the > military. I also know some who have not. > > > > Kate > > > > Kate, > > Likewise, the point I'm trying to make is that American history and world > history for that matter are not hidden from anyone. Most of the people I > know who are serving or have served in the military, both family and > friends, understand that it is far from an easy option and compared to the > risk, the pay isn't that great. Despite that, some have even re-upped. This > is my personal experience so it's hard for me to be cynical about their > choices because I've not walked in their shoes. I partied behind > ivy-covered walls while they fought off sleep deprivation in basic training. > > > I feel certain that the troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and other parts of the > world are a mix of those who completely understood the gravity of their > choice and those who thought it would be like a video game. I can't speak > to "many," "some" or any other proportion because I doubt that either you or > I know what that proportion actually is. Ultimately, we have free will and > we have to assume personal responsibility for our own choices, even those > made hastily in our youth, despite long-standing marketing efforts or other > influences. We have a lot of freedom to educate ourselves and a myriad of > free resources with which to do it. Not delving into the history is a > choice. Service is a choice as well and I've not in any way indicated that > it is any higher then teaching or healing. But it is a choice nevertheless. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:37:19 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: Enough Said (not) - NJC Hi Patrick! B does indeed stand for Brenda... I didn't realize my identification was so cryptic until I saw my posts hit the lists so I think I've cleaned that up a bit. I won't argue that Rose Royce is a stretch compared to the Beatles or Cream, however I do think their (and Norman's) importance in terms of influence is largely ignored because the impact to the mainstream is relegated to the one song, "Car Wash." (Not that "Car Wash" doesn't evoke a warm vibe and treasured memories of peaking in on my older brothers playing cards or shooting pool with their friends under the blue lights and burning incense in the basement of my parent's home in Ohio....) Personally I think the whole argument that there's going to be some vacuum when the balding geezers kick is bunk. And I find it increasingly difficult to compare today's environment with even 10 years ago let alone 35. This whole conversation has an underlying basis in albums and album-oriented artists when in reality the "album" is something of a transitory configuration. There are prominent and respected artists making music now who might decide in two or three years to release a handful of songs at a time without ever compiling them together as a group or 10 or 12. In fact I'm trying to convince a couple that I know to do that very thing right now. I had conversations with Ben Harper about the possibilities of this eight years ago. (I'm not going to say a WORD about folks leaving him off the guitarists list... whatever!) Will this new approach diminish them in any way to the people who love their music? I don't think so. In fact, I think the media available today allow artists to do this and have a richer, deeper and more immediate communication with their fans that can extend careers beyond the critically acknowledged "prolific period." News travels fast these days (how quickly did the George Allen "macaca" gaff spread?) and music will too as soon as people let go and let it out as it happens versus trying to find the right timing for a release. Gosh Patrick... that's probably more than you bargained for in a response but what can I say to your kind and gracious words other than: "Music sluts unite! Give it to me and give it to me NOW!" ;-) B patrick leader wrote: > dear b (does that stand for brenda?) > > i just want to say it's fantastic to have you contributing to the list > again, the depth of knowledge and insight is terrific. > > regarding your fascinating earlier comments about rose royce, i don't think > it negates bob's point: that if that other guy is citing rose royce to prove > his point that 'they don't make 'em like that any more' he's stretching. > rose royce was great, but citing their influence on mary j. blige just > reminded me of what a fantastic artist she is, proving that brilliant new > talents are still rising in this very different time. however, i'm putting > a rose royce greatest hits cd on my mental wish list. 'wishing on a star' > had a definite second run in new york clubs between '90 and '92. > > i also liked your comments about how differently black artists were marketed > in the '60s. growing up listening to san francisco bay area radio, i did > hear the great motown singles, and sly, stevie wonder and earth wind and > fire were major loves of mine in high school (and continue to be now) > > like most of the people on this list, i'm a music slut, but i never heard > etta james until the late '80s, and i was shocked. i bought several > collections of singles and the fantastic 1967 album 'tell mama', and i > immediately recognized that she was the single strongest influence on janis, > but i remember thinking 'why didn't i hear this stuff on the radio when it > was first released?'. i even remember first hearing her version of 'i would > rather go blind', recognizing that rod stewart had covered it, and being > angry that pop radio hadn't served it to me in 1967. > > it taught me an important lesson about how music was distributed in the > '60s, and your insights brought it up again. thanks, > > patrick > > np - dawn upshaw, stay well (kurt weill) > > >> I don't think the difference between the top sellers of 2005 and 1969 >> > has as much to do with the black middle class as it does the way black > artists were marketed in 1969. Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye were among > the first to fight to be treated and marketed as album artists when so > many (besides Hendrix and Sly Stone) were seen as singles artists only. > And that happened around '71. > > ** and, worth quoting again ** > > Funny enough<>, the intro of "Car Wash" with those hand claps > has propelled the song to be one of the most sampled ever, only > surpassed by the likes of James Brown and George > Clinton/Parliament/Funkadelic. > > Never mind the influence on contemporary R&B and hip hop of songs like > "Love Don't Live Here Anymore," "Wishing On A Star," "I Wanna Get Next > To You" and "I'm Going Down" which was a smash for Mary J. Blige almost > 20 years later, yielding an award-winning video that has become an > iconic moment of her 12+ year career. Norman Whitfield remains one of > the most under-appreciated songwriters/producers of the late '60's and > 70's, who constantly pushed boundaries at Motown. Rose Royce were as > much his instrument of expression as the Temptations were. > > That's the challenge with these kinds of discussions. There's a > reasonable angle to more positions than what's immediately visible at > first glance. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:41:54 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Draft (njc) Randy wrote: > The reason some on the left has called for a draft is strategic- > they feel that until the reality of this idiotic war hits home with > voters, and their own sons and daughters are enlisted, > they will not get heated up enough to pull the plug. Yep. That's what THIS leftie means when I suggest that a draft may be around the corner. Remember, THIS leftie is an Air Force veteran of 10+ years. Although I did not personally experience combat, I have many friends who did, and I was in the military during the craziness of the Reagan years. I had to bomb sweep my car every morning in Germany after the La Belle disco bombing. I understand what I'm saying when I suggest a draft. I don't understand how this war can drag on for much longer without a draft. The military can't use "stop loss" (which is unfair and a back door draft) forever. They can call back those who have done tours in Iraq only so many times. Furthermore, until a draft is happening again, the complacent kids who won't take to the streets in protest right now will continue walzing through life with their iPod headphones poked into their ears. Afterall, it's not THEIR problem, is it? This doesn't mean I really want to see a draft, and I know damn well that the truly privileged won't end up being drafted. But a draft is a necessary evil in order to smack the heads of the complacent, get their attention, and get them in the streets. It's necessary to get parents off the sofa and screaming at their senators and representatives. Because until and unless the rest of the population is in danger, nothing is else going to stop this dirty war. Lori Santa Rosa, CA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:41:05 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: Warner Bros pulls Joni videos from Utube That dangling "np:" was k.d. lang singing "Help Me" which is still up on YouTube. Kind of makes me wonder if the removal of Joni videos was WMG acting on Joni's behalf since they are both Warner artists... Brenda wrote: > Michael Flaherty wrote: >> Michael O'Malley wrote: >As if >> someone is going to make money from these or what ? Feels pretty >> cheap to me, especially since it is so obviously a fan driven site. >> >> If they want to release "The Joni Videos" dvd, I'm ready to buy >> it. If not, what do they care? >> Cheap is the right word. >> Michael Flaherty >> > > YouTube is already making money from advertising for the aggregate of > content that it has and if it's sold to another bigger company will > undoubtedly make billions. Shouldn't some of this go back to the > people whose work is being used on the site to draw a crowd in the > first place, even if the number of viewings are proportionately very > small compared to lonelygirl15's video about being "really, really > excited?" YouTube knows that this is the case which is why they are > negotiating with labels, publishers and television companies now so > that they can legally show music videos and live performances. > > B > > np: ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #306 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------