From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #305 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, August 27 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 305 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni "In Her Own Words" / Searching the JMDL [Bob Muller ] Re: Joni Mitchells talent NJC [music ] NJC All Songs Considered [Bob Muller ] Re: Enough said (not) NJC [music ] Re: Draft (njc) [music ] Re: Joni "In Her Own Words" / Searching the JMDL [Smurf ] RE: Draft (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Enough Said (not) - NJC [music ] Re: India Arie [music ] Re: Draft (njc) ["Randy Remote" ] RE: Draft (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] CSN (&Y) the early years VLJC ["Cassy" ] No Child Left Behind Recruitment wording 0- NJC ["Cassy" ] Re: Draft (njc) [Brenda ] Re: CSN (&Y) the early years VLJC [Brenda ] Re: India Arie [Brenda ] Re: No Child Left Behind Recruitment wording - NJC [Brenda ] Re: No Child Left Behind Recruitment wording - NJC ["Cassy" ] Re: India Arie [Brenda ] Re: Television NJC - now A Walk on the Moon soundtrack [Bryan ] RE: Draft (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: CSNY in the casino ["Kate Bennett" ] Return to The Scene of The Crime-NJC [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:29:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Joni "In Her Own Words" / Searching the JMDL Smurf, Here's one of the digests that came out with lots of "Thesaurus Joni" content: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni/v2003.n307 It's dated June 1, 2003 - so you should be able to bring up the digests before and after it and get all the dirt. Bob NP: Al Jarreau, "Take Five" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 01:48:10 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: some help? njc hi all this talk about old music - reminded me of an old song i used to really enjoy - i tried to track it down and & it seems to have been by chase, but i cant track down the specific song lyrics started "my mama was born on a sway back mule, (way?) down in the state of georgia" any ideas???? ron np - white stripes - 7 nation army (but i guess i must get rid of it 'cause its a 90s band & apparently therefore its shite......) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:54:07 -0700 From: music Subject: Re: Joni Mitchells talent NJC Andeemac2006 wrote: > Bob Muller said > >> Subject: Re: Joni Mitchells talent NJC >> >> I guess I hace to finally concede your point - >> after all, it's hard to overestimate the massive >> effect that "Car Wash" had on the history of >> modern music. Jesus. >> > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Hey!! why do bother to subscribe to the joni Digest if you hold that Opinion. > Lame very lame Bob!!!!!!!!!!!! and you had to use profanity as well MY My !!!!! > You may as well do what the Republicans do in this situation and call me a Liberal > the ultimate insult. > Funny enough (and judging by one of your comments you may not care for this so much Andeemac), the intro of "Car Wash" with those hand claps has propelled the song to be one of the most sampled ever, only surpassed by the likes of James Brown and George Clinton/Parliament/Funkadelic. Never mind the influence on contemporary R&B and hip hop of songs like "Love Don't Live Here Anymore," "Wishing On A Star," "I Wanna Get Next To You" and "I'm Going Down" which was a smash for Mary J. Blige almost 20 years later, yielding an award-winning video that has become an iconic moment of her 12+ year career. Norman Whitfield remains one of the most under-appreciated songwriters/producers of the late '60's and 70's, who constantly pushed boundaries at Motown. Rose Royce were as much his instrument of expression as the Temptations were. That's the challenge with these kinds of discussions. There's a reasonable angle to more positions than what's immediately visible at first glance. B n.p.: Tampa Bay at Jacksonville ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:10:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: NJC All Songs Considered I love this weekly weblink, and this week's show is great - thought I'd turn y'all on to it: http://www.npr.org/programs/asc/ It kicks off with a track from the new Dylan record, due out Tuesday and winds its way to a Tuvan throat-singing cover of Zep's "When The Levee Breaks" and a KILLER track from Sufjan's backup singer Shara Worden aka My Brightest Diamond, and closes out with a sweet upcoming track (Chaplin's "Smile") from the upcoming Madeleine Peyroux (the one with the kd-duet on River). Some other surprises there too - the SCJoniguy guy says Check it out - it don't cost nuttin'. Bob NP: Madeleine Peyroux, "Smile" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:21:06 -0700 From: music Subject: Re: Enough said (not) NJC Victor Johnson wrote: >>> As a side note, what happened to good humor? >>> WTF!!! >> > > One word..... > > Chapelle Show! Dave Chappelle has unquestionably picked up where Richard Pryor left off. I know some folks have a hard time getting with the Comedy Central show because of some of the scatological humor, so I highly recommend his stand-up special, "Killin' Them Softly." Dave also makes some very frank comments about his experiences in Hollywood, his upbringing and why he lives in a small town in Ohio during his appearance on Inside the Actor's Studio. The film he released this year, "Block Party" presents a 21st century version of how entertainment "variety" can reflect contemporary culture. Forget SNL. That version of sketch comedy has long since been dead. If only someone would put it out of its misery for good. Comedy is still alive and well in live venues too. Comedians are opening for music acts, acting as MC's and participating in music festivals. "Alternative" comedy is definitely hot in a number of cities. But if you don't happen to live in one of them, Comedy Central's Sunday night line up of Chappelle, Mind of Mencia and Reno 911 is bound to yield some giggles. Reno takes some time to get to know the characters but once you do... it's outrageous. B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:25:08 -0700 From: music Subject: Re: Draft (njc) Randy Remote wrote: > The reason some on the left has called for a draft is strategic- > they feel that until the reality of this idiotic war hits home with > voters, and their own sons and daughters are enlisted, they will not > get heated up enough to pull the plug. > No one on the left wants this to go on....that's the neo cons > and of course the armament profiteers, infrastructure corporations, > etc....(oops, same thing). > I do not support a draft, but recognize that we already have > a poverty draft. But this isn't anything new, is it? What mystifies me about the whole military recruitment/volunteer service discussion is that anyone supposes that they will be immune from danger when they sign up, regardless of what promises are made. Isn't there a common sense definition and understanding of what the military /is/ and what purpose it serves? B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:12:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Joni "In Her Own Words" / Searching the JMDL Thanks, Bob! I just read some to Hannah -- my old girlfriend with whom I saw Joni in '73 or so -- and she loved them! She's visiting from Amsterdam and my visitors from Rome are due back any moment. Sounds like a familiar tune . . . Good night, - --B - --- Bob Muller wrote: > Smurf, > > Here's one of the digests that came out with lots > of "Thesaurus Joni" content: > > http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni/v2003.n307 > > It's dated June 1, 2003 - so you should be able > to bring up the digests before and after it and > get all the dirt. > > Bob > > NP: Al Jarreau, "Take Five" > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:16:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: some help? njc - --- ron asked about: > lyrics started "my mama was born on a sway back > mule, (way?) down in the > state of georgia" > > any ideas???? Not sure, Ron, but it certainly sounds like a Barbra Streisand song to me. They just don't write 'em like that anymore, eh? - --Smurf . Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:36:30 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Draft (njc) >So why do some people still put it out there and try to rile people up about it?? < Because they don't know that it was shot down... it is one of many urban myths that keep on circulating via the internet that people keep on sending around without checking the accuracy... I don't see it as anyone intentionally trying to rile people up any more than any other number of myths that stay alive because people don't take the time to check snopes or such other sources to see if it is accurate... >That's what I mean when I say it seems some people almost want it to be reinstated for some kind of agenda. I have heard a number of congress people come out all for it in the past few years. I have heard a number of congress people come out all for it in the past few years. They seemed sincerely in favor of it and did not seem to be taking that position as just a ruse to have it shot down. It is not something to play games about. It is a very emotional topic to me and looking back in history to Vietnam, one can see many games that were played.< well, you can research it pretty quickly if you want to know the facts of this (it was about 3 years ago I think)... it was a strategic thing, weird but true... it took on a life of its own way after the bill itself was shot down or whatever the legal term is (sent to committee?)... & keeps making the rounds >I'm not trying to be dense here, but the government has had recruiting programs for the military ever since I can remember. There have been junior ROTC groups in high schools for a long, long time and in colleges. Information on students has always been shared with the federal government for many purposes other than recruiting. It just kills me that some people seem to think this is one more thing that started with this administration. I don't have details on promises never kept but I'm all for giving them generous compensation for their service. I can't think of any people who deserve it more. This is something far different than the recruiting & rotc you remember from your youth... most people with kids are familiar with what is going on & it shouldn't be hard to learn more about it if you are interested... it is indeed a new program buried in the no child left behind act... which was initiated by this administration ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:30:16 -0700 From: music Subject: Re: Enough Said (not) - NJC Forgive me all... I'm kinda working my way backwards... but I promise to lay off soon... Gerald A. Notaro wrote: > Best Selling albums of 1969: > > 1 The Beatles > Abbey Road > 2 Captain Beefheart > Trout Mask Replica > 3 The Rolling Stones > Let It Bleed > 4 Led Zeppelin > Led Zeppelin > 5 The Band > The Band > 6 Miles Davis > In a Silent Way > 7 Led Zeppelin > Led Zeppelin II > 8 Frank Zappa > Hot Rats > 9 The Who > Tommy > 10 Frank Zappa > Uncle Meat > > Best Selling Albums of 2005: > > 1. Emancipation of Mimi, - Mariah Carey (4,968,606) > 2. Massacre, - 50 Cent (4,852,744) > 3. Breakway, - Kelly Clarkson (3,496,192) > 4. American Idiot, - Green Day (3,360,394) > 5. Monkey Business, - Black Eyed Peas (3,037,251) > 6. X & Y, - Coldplay (2,615,280) > 7. Feels Like Today, - Rscal Flatts (2,511,209) > 8. Love.Angel.Music.Baby, - Gwen Stefani (2,505,390) > 9. Late Registration, - Kanye West (2,413,580) > 10. Documentary, - Game (2,275,646) > > May I ask what the source of your 1969 list is? Are those the top sellers in the year 1969 or the biggest sellers so far that were released in 1969? Billboard lists the top albums of 1969 as being: 1. IN-A-GADDA-DA-VIDA - Iron Butterfly (Atco) 2. HAIR - Original Cast (RCA) 3. BLOOD, SWEAT AND TEARS - Blood, Sweat & Tears (Columbia) 4. BAYOU COUNTRY - Creedence Clearwater Revival (Fantasy) 5. LED ZEPPELIN - Led Zeppelin (Atlantic) 6. JOHNNY CASH AT FOLSOM PRISON - Johnny Cash (Columbia) 7. FUNNY GIRL - Soundtrack (Columbia) 8. THE BEATLES (The White Album) - Beatles (Apple) 9. DONOVAN'S GREATEST HITS - Donovan (Epic) 10. THE ASSOCIATION'S GREATEST HITS - Association (Warner Bros. - 7 Arts) And the top singles of 1969 were: 1. SUGAR, SUGAR - Archies (Kirshner) 2. AQUARIUS/LET THE SUNSHINE IN - Fifth Dimension (Soul City) 3. I CANT GET NEXT TO YOU - Temptations (Gordy) 4. HONKY TONK WOMEN - Rolling Stones (London) 5. EVERYDAY PEOPLE - Sly & the Family Stone (Epic) 6. DIZZY - Tommy Roe (ABC) 7. HOT FUN IN THE SUMMERTIME - Sly & the Family Stone (Epic) 8. I'LL NEVER FALL IN LOVE AGAIN - Tom Jones (Parrot) 9. BUILD ME UP BUTTERCUP - Foundations (Uni) 10. CRIMSON AND CLOVER - Tommy James & the Shondells (Roulette) I don't think it's accidental that the top singles in 1969 look more like the top album chart in 2005. There is no real paid commercial singles market now and there hasn't been for a few years, by design to push full length sales. And it has been a very short time (months really) that a company like BigChampagne has been able to track the impact of free file swapping in terms of single and artist popularity. Their data still hasn't been incorporated in a way that gives a comprehensive view of the overall music marketplace. Soundscan no longer reflects that; it only provides a snapshot of retail sales which is far from being representative of the music market overall. I think it's tenuous at best to compare a 1969 chart to a 2005 chart, not only because of differences in methodology but also because the overall cultural landscape has shifted the power away from radio stations, once-a-week TV shows, retailers and record labels to the average person on-line or on their phone. Recorded music is more ubiquitous and is easily accessed on demand. The barriers to production and distribution have been lowered to the point that there is more music being recorded and made available than ever before. It's hard for me to look at any of these lists without bearing that in mind. Bob Muller wrote: > Another interesting point from the two lists - > the 1969 list (with the exception of Miles Davis) > was all white and the 2005 list was mostly black. > I think it also speaks to the rising purchasing > power of the increase in the black middle class. > I don't think the difference between the top sellers of 2005 and 1969 has as much to do with the black middle class as it does the way black artists were marketed in 1969. Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye were among the first to fight to be treated and marketed as album artists when so many (besides Hendrix and Sly Stone) were seen as singles artists only. And that happened around '71. On a separate note, music that sounds "black" or is made by black artists isn't necessarily bought exclusively or even by a majority black people. In my experience, a project that is successful with a core black audience (regardless of class because music is one of the few things affordable at all kinds of income levels amongst all colors and races) may sell somewhere between 300k-700k with a big success at just over a million. Mariah Carey and 50 Cent are selling to a wide range of people because they are pop. In fact, 50 Cent's audience is like a lot of hardcore rap in that it has a significant portion that is young (teens-early 20's), male and white. The black middle class is in no small measure revolting against the "bitches and hoes" aesthetic as evidenced by Bill Cosby's speech to the NAACP and the subsequent support he received, signified by Juan Williams' new book "Enough." Talk about culture wars. I promise guys that I'm almost out of gas... for tonight anyway... B n.p.: The Roots - "Pity The Child/Come Together" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:03:02 -0700 From: music Subject: Re: India Arie Randy Remote wrote: > I think Fiona Apple is brilliant, but it's taken her 10 years to do 3 > albums. How many albums did CSN (and sometimes Y) do in the 10 years starting in 1969? B n.p.: The Roots - Live From The PJ's ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:08:11 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: Draft (njc) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "music" > > What mystifies me about the whole military recruitment/volunteer service > discussion is that anyone supposes that they will be immune from danger > when they sign up, regardless of what promises are made. Isn't there a > common sense definition and understanding of what the military /is/ and > what purpose it serves? Not really-because of the way the modern military sells itself. If their recruitment PR was honest, it would be like that well known poster- "join the army, travel to far away places, meet exotic people and kill them". Instead it's presented as a very cleanly run organization, like working any job. And selling the vision of the 'modern, intelligent Army' to teenagers is easier in general, because they don't have a sense of history, memories of Nam, etc. Of course, during a war, the reality begins to dawn that you are going to be sent to a foreign land with a gun in your hand. Naturally recruitment is tougher. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:35:52 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Draft (njc) Well I'm amazed that you are amazed! LOL. These are kids being recruited. They may look like adults but they are often still such kids. In some places the recruitment begins in middle school. Kids join because they think its 'cool' to defend your country, they believe the commercials, they see it as a way of getting an education or getting rich, they want to do it like they've seen in the movies... in their minds they are immune to any harm coming to them... that is the beauty of youth & the tragedy of war... From: "music" > > What mystifies me about the whole military recruitment/volunteer service > discussion is that anyone supposes that they will be immune from danger > when they sign up, regardless of what promises are made. Isn't there a > common sense definition and understanding of what the military /is/ and > what purpose it serves? Not really-because of the way the modern military sells itself. If their recruitment PR was honest, it would be like that well known poster- "join the army, travel to far away places, meet exotic people and kill them". Instead it's presented as a very cleanly run organization, like working any job. And selling the vision of the 'modern, intelligent Army' to teenagers is easier in general, because they don't have a sense of history, memories of Nam, etc. Of course, during a war, the reality begins to dawn that you are going to be sent to a foreign land with a gun in your hand. Naturally recruitment is tougher. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:36:41 -0400 From: "Cassy" Subject: CSN (&Y) the early years VLJC From: "music" To: "Randy Remote" <<< Randy Remote wrote: I think Fiona Apple is brilliant, but it's taken her 10 years to do 3 albums. How many albums did CSN (and sometimes Y) do in the 10 years starting in 1969? >>> I'm thinking it was 5. These are the ones I have on Vinyl anyway. 1969 - Crosby, Stills & Nash 1970 - Deja Vu 1971 - 4-Way Street 1974 - So Far (cover art work by Joni) 1977 - CSN I could have missed something but I think I bought everything they did back then... just loved those harmonies. Cassy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:42:33 -0400 From: "Cassy" Subject: No Child Left Behind Recruitment wording 0- NJC <<< it is indeed a new program buried in the no child left behind act... which was initiated by this administration >>> The actual wording can be found at: http://www.rcnv.org/counterrecruit/optout/ Cassy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:58:36 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: No Child Left Behind Recruitment wording 0- NJC To say it was buried is to ignore the last few years of people talking about it. It's never been hidden and it's not any newer then No Child Left Behind itself. It seems as though some folks are just waking up to it while others have been aware all along. Cassy wrote: > <<< it is indeed a new program buried in the no child left behind > act... which was initiated by this administration >>> > > The actual wording can be found at: > http://www.rcnv.org/counterrecruit/optout/ > > Cassy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:43:19 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: Re Slide Guitartists and fantastic singers... Whitey Houston NJC I would compare Whitney to Billie and Judy certainly. The "technicians" at work have been the people around her, crafting her recordings (and image until it got away from them). They've consistently pursued appeal instead of emotion. But I've heard Whitney sing music live (some of it gospel) that left everyone in the room in tears in and in awe. The problem is that it isn't what she records. If she ever allows herself to express the pain she has known over her addictions, relationships, sexuality and all the other things that make up the train wreck that is her life in recordings, then this whole line of discussion would go away. The immense success of "I Will Always Love You" and The Bodyguard soundtrack wasn't accidental. It reached people. It also happened to be one of her least vocally adorned performances. I don't know what it would take for her to shed the tough Jersey girl who chooses image over vulnerability, but if she ever does I know it would change minds. On another note, I've heard Christina sing Leon Russell's "A Song for You" with the accompaniment of Herbie Hancock on piano and there's no doubt she has heart. Again, getting it to the recordings is another matter. B np: The Roots & Erykah Badu - You Got Me Gerald A. Notaro wrote: > Vocal pyrotechnics. No heart. Like Bob, I have no interest in her drug > use. Many great singers had the same trouble. But could anyone really > compare Whitney to Billie, Judy, or even Big Maybelle??? > > Jerry > > Em wrote: > >> The "old school" first gen, crack ho's. lol! >> >> I don't care about her drug history (because if I did I would be a >> hypocrit, since so many I love are/were junkies of some sort or >> another), but I see Whitney as mainly a *technician* of singing, and a >> pretty face. Rather than having gobs of soul. >> >> I'd like to hear her sing, say, "Amazing Grace" without changing or >> embellishing one note. DO NOT EMBELLISH! Sjust this once, sing the >> melody as written. I have NO doubt in my mind Aretha could do that and >> STILL it would be wonderful! But some, I feel, rely on doing this thing >> where they sing every note but the actual note that's called for. Like >> the name of the game is "stay away from that note". >> I guess its a really cool thing, but I feel like its an effect that >> should be used tastefully. >> >> That said, I've never listened to an entire Whitney Houston album.... >> so maybe there ARE some down to earth tracks. >> See thats the thing, to me Whitney is not *of the earth*. >> Am I wrong? >> >> If someone can tell me one Whitney track that might change my mind, I >> will go to iTunes and buy it. In fact, that would be fun. >> I love it when my mind changes. >> Its like that line from American Beauty where Kevin Spacey says: "It's >> a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise >> yourself". >> >> But back to Whitney: if she's a ho, I'd say it would be a music >> industry ho, more than anything. >> I wonder what she sings just for fun, while she's just hanging out. >> maybe TI. >> Em >> >> --- Bob Muller wrote: >> >> >>> >>> >>> I think the point is that the 21st century crack >>> whores can't hold a candle to the classic crack >>> whores of the 80's. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:01:11 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: India Arie - ----- Original Message ----- From: "music" > Randy Remote wrote: >> I think Fiona Apple is brilliant, but it's taken her 10 years to do 3 >> albums. > > How many albums did CSN (and sometimes Y) do in the 10 years starting in > 1969? > > B Depends on how you count, but pretty dang prolific, and remember, CSN was designed from the beginning to be an open-ended group. Crosby Stills and Nash (1st) CSN (sailboat album) CSN(Y)-Woodstock I & II strk. albums Crosby Stills Nash and Young-Deja Vu CSNY-Four Way Street David Crosby-If I Could Only Remember My Name Stephen Stills (1) Stephen Stills II Manassas (2LP) Manassas-Down The Road Stills Live Illegal Stills Thoroughfare Gap (with Young)-Long May You Run Graham Nash-Songs For Beginners -Wild Tales Graham Nash&David Crosby-(1st) -Wind On The Water -Whistling Down The Wire -Live Neil Young-15 albums not including those above ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:55:10 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: Draft (njc) Kate & Randy, I'm not the least bit naive about how the military sells itself or that those who appear to be adults are still kids. But a military, any military, serves a basic core purpose regardless of marketing and commercials. This purpose is centuries old and anyone who puts their nose in a history book knows that. Nothing prevents them from seeking that sense of history before they join. It's not at all beyond the grasp of a 14 or 15 year old, let alone a 17 or 18 year old. And to say that kids join because they think it's "cool" is really a generalization. Some join because they want to serve, they understand what it means and they are proud of that service. The reasons are not easily or uniformly summed up as you list them below. Kate Bennett wrote: > Well I'm amazed that you are amazed! LOL. These are kids being recruited. > They may look like adults but they are often still such kids. In some > places the recruitment begins in middle school. Kids join because they > think its 'cool' to defend your country, they believe the commercials, they > see it as a way of getting an education or getting rich, they want to do it > like they've seen in the movies... in their minds they are immune to any > harm coming to them... that is the beauty of youth & the tragedy of war... > > > From: "music" > > >>> What mystifies me about the whole military recruitment/volunteer service >>> >> discussion is that anyone supposes that they will be immune from danger >> when they sign up, regardless of what promises are made. Isn't there a >> common sense definition and understanding of what the military /is/ and >> what purpose it serves? >> > > Not really-because of the way the modern military sells itself. If > their recruitment PR was honest, it would be like that well known poster- > "join the army, travel to far away places, meet exotic people and kill > them". > Instead it's presented as a very cleanly run organization, like working any > job. And selling the vision of the 'modern, intelligent > Army' to teenagers is easier in general, because they don't have a > sense of history, memories of Nam, etc. > Of course, during a war, the reality begins to dawn that you are > going to be sent to a foreign land with a gun in your hand. Naturally > recruitment is tougher. > RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:05:15 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: CSN (&Y) the early years VLJC 4-way Street is a live album and So Far was a compilation without any new original music, right? My point is that there isn't that much difference in terms of how prolific CSNY was versus Fiona Apple. Cassy wrote: > From: "music" > To: "Randy Remote" > > <<< Randy Remote wrote: I think Fiona Apple is brilliant, but it's > taken her 10 years to do 3 albums. > > How many albums did CSN (and sometimes Y) do in the 10 years starting > in 1969? >>> > > I'm thinking it was 5. These are the ones I have on Vinyl anyway. > > 1969 - Crosby, Stills & Nash > 1970 - Deja Vu > 1971 - 4-Way Street > 1974 - So Far (cover art work by Joni) > 1977 - CSN > > I could have missed something but I think I bought everything they did > back then... just loved those harmonies. > > Cassy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:07:53 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: India Arie But in reality Randy, the only real attraction is when Neil Young is on his own or CSNY go out as a foursome, whether they were designed to be an open-ended group or just ended up that way because they couldn't manage their differences. Randy Remote wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "music" > >> Randy Remote wrote: >>> I think Fiona Apple is brilliant, but it's taken her 10 years to do >>> 3 albums. >> >> How many albums did CSN (and sometimes Y) do in the 10 years starting >> in 1969? >> >> B > > Depends on how you count, but pretty dang prolific, and remember, > CSN was designed from the beginning to be an open-ended group. > Crosby Stills and Nash (1st) > CSN (sailboat album) > CSN(Y)-Woodstock I & II strk. albums > Crosby Stills Nash and Young-Deja Vu CSNY-Four Way Street > David Crosby-If I Could Only Remember My Name > Stephen Stills (1) > Stephen Stills II > Manassas (2LP) > Manassas-Down The Road > Stills > Live > Illegal Stills > Thoroughfare Gap > (with Young)-Long May You Run > Graham Nash-Songs For Beginners > -Wild Tales > Graham Nash&David Crosby-(1st) > -Wind On The Water > -Whistling Down The Wire > -Live > Neil Young-15 albums not including those above ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:08:33 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: No Child Left Behind Recruitment wording - NJC I understand that Cassy. I was just being lazy in not going back to get Kate's original post. Cassy wrote: > Hi Brenda, actually I was quoting Kate inside the triple <<< >>> s and > simply added a link to the wording. I didn't leave her header > intact... my mistake. I apologize for the confusion. > > Warmly, > Cassy > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" > To: "Cassy" > Cc: "Kate Bennett" ; > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 11:58 PM > Subject: Re: No Child Left Behind Recruitment wording 0- NJC > > >> To say it was buried is to ignore the last few years of people >> talking about it. It's never been hidden and it's not any newer then >> No Child Left Behind itself. It seems as though some folks are just >> waking up to it while others have been aware all along. >> >> Cassy wrote: >>> <<< it is indeed a new program buried in the no child left behind >>> act... which was initiated by this administration >>> >>> >>> The actual wording can be found at: >>> http://www.rcnv.org/counterrecruit/optout/ >>> >>> Cassy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:11:36 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: CSNY in the casino I'm not. Casinos pay their guarantees (sometimes bigger ones) like anyone else. Kate Bennett wrote: > I am surprised to hear that CSNY played in the casino in CT. Croz is really > outspoken in these parts due to our situation with casinos & their expansion > & the methods involved in doing so (those who oppose casinos often point to > what has happened in CT) & and last year he went to Washington DC to speak > in front of congress I think. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 00:04:30 -0400 From: "Cassy" Subject: Re: No Child Left Behind Recruitment wording - NJC Hi Brenda, actually I was quoting Kate inside the triple <<< >>> s and simply added a link to the wording. I didn't leave her header intact... my mistake. I apologize for the confusion. Warmly, Cassy - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" To: "Cassy" Cc: "Kate Bennett" ; Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 11:58 PM Subject: Re: No Child Left Behind Recruitment wording 0- NJC > To say it was buried is to ignore the last few years of people talking > about it. It's never been hidden and it's not any newer then No Child > Left Behind itself. It seems as though some folks are just waking up to > it while others have been aware all along. > > Cassy wrote: >> <<< it is indeed a new program buried in the no child left behind act... >> which was initiated by this administration >>> >> >> The actual wording can be found at: >> http://www.rcnv.org/counterrecruit/optout/ >> >> Cassy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 00:11:22 -0400 From: "Cassy" Subject: Re: CSN (&Y) the early years VLJC Randy counted all the individual releases too, I didn't do that... shame on me! "Black Queen (courtesy of Jose Cuervo Tequila)" is one of my favorite Stills tunes. If one counts all of the independent material the boys put out as well as CSN(&Y) they were pretty damn prolific. Warmly, Cassy From: "Brenda" <<< 4-way Street is a live album and So Far was a compilation without any new original music, right? My point is that there isn't that much difference in terms of how prolific CSNY was versus Fiona Apple. >>> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:23:56 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: India Arie Randy Remote wrote: > The renaissance period was, in my mind, from about 1965-1975. > There is nothing to compare it to today; Joni was putting out a killer > album every year, as was Dylan. The Beatles put out 12 monsters > in 6 years. Hendrix left a trail of genius in 3 years. There are some > good artists out there now, but none who consistantly deliver like > that. > Factor in CSNY, Floyd, Yes, Traffic, The Who; where is today's > "Tommy" or "Wish You Were Here" or "Inner Visions"? > Beck? Matthews? Don't make me laugh. On the other hand, the next wave > of devine inspiration may be > on it's way at any moment; sometimes I think I can sense it.... For me and loads of my friends, there was a golden period from 1987 to 1997 that included music from Public Enemy, Boogie Down Productions, Eric B & Rakim, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, Beastie Boys, Massive Attack, Bjork, Tricky, Portishead, Radiohead, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Cassandra Wilson's awesome Blue Light Til Dawn and New Moon Daughter, Dianne Reeves, Wynton & Branford Marsalis and the list goes on. I don't own a single Beatles album but I own all the PE, Tribe, Massive, Radiohead and Nirvana albums. I'm not dissing the Beatles by any stretch because great songwriting is great songwriting. However, further to a point previously made by others, it doesn't resonate with me personally like the music of this time did. B np: Jorge Drexler - Polvo de Estrellas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:20:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Bryan Subject: Re: Television NJC - now A Walk on the Moon soundtrack >>Subject: Re: Television NJC >>From: "Cassy" >>I was watching television during the day a few days ago which I very rarely do. I >>started watching a movie called "A Walk on the Moon" (1999)....... >1. Sunlight - The Youngbloods >2. Town Without Pity - Mandy Barnett >3. Wishin' & Hopin' - Dusty Springfield >4. Sally Go Round The Roses - Damnations TX >5. Summertime - Big Brother & The Holding Company >6. Crystal Blue Persuasion - Morcheeba >7. Today - Jefferson Airplane >8. Embryonic Journey - Jefferson Airplane >9. Cactus Tree - Joni Mitchell >10. Ripple - Grateful Dead >11. Helplessly Hoping - Taxiride >12. No Matter What You Do - Mojave 3 >13. Who Knows Where The Time Goes - Judy Collins >14. White Bird - It's A Beautiful Day >15. Follow - Richie Havens >16. Crimson & Clover - Elijah Blue Allman/Cher >Cassy I have that soundtrack CD, very enjoyable ("A Town Without Pity" really cooks). Out of print now and starts at $52 used on amazon.com! One of very few wise investments on my part, I guess. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:27:15 -0700 From: Brenda Subject: Re: CSN (&Y) the early years VLJC But none of the individual releases amount to the same impact as CSNY. (as Randy specifically listed in his original email about the "renaissance") If they did, these guys wouldn't need Neil to play sheds and command $2oo a pop. Cassy wrote: > Randy counted all the individual releases too, I didn't do that... > shame on me! "Black Queen (courtesy of Jose Cuervo Tequila)" is one > of my favorite Stills tunes. > > If one counts all of the independent material the boys put out as well > as CSN(&Y) they were pretty damn prolific. > > Warmly, > Cassy > > From: "Brenda" > > <<< 4-way Street is a live album and So Far was a compilation without > any new original music, right? > > My point is that there isn't that much difference in terms of how > prolific CSNY was versus Fiona Apple. >>> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:44:27 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Draft (njc) Hi Brenda, The point I am trying to make is that many kids believe the marketing & commercials & dont delve into the history, especially when they are given a huge check to sign on the dotted line every kid I know who has joined has not spent a lot of time contemplating the decision.. BTW, I said some kids join because its cool, & some join for various other reasons. Not all. And Ill admit I am very cynical when I hear how people join to serve their country. How is serving in the military any more or less serving your country than teaching, or going into medicine, etc etc They are choosing a career that pays them in return. Yes they are at great risk, yes they deserve what they get in return but I think few who join really understand the risks. At least that has been my experience in talking to veterans from several wars over the past couple decades including this one. Most had a very romantic image of what they were going in to do & if they made it out alive & healthy (talking about those in wars), they saw how naove they were. I think what gets me upset the most is that the military is the best paying & easiest option for so many kids. It says a lot about our culture. Kate & Randy, I'm not the least bit naive about how the military sells itself or that those who appear to be adults are still kids. But a military, any military, serves a basic core purpose regardless of marketing and commercials. This purpose is centuries old and anyone who puts their nose in a history book knows that. Nothing prevents them from seeking that sense of history before they join. It's not at all beyond the grasp of a 14 or 15 year old, let alone a 17 or 18 year old. And to say that kids join because they think it's "cool" is really a generalization. Some join because they want to serve, they understand what it means and they are proud of that service. The reasons are not easily or uniformly summed up as you list them below. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:50:30 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: CSNY in the casino Yes they pay bigger guarantees than most for sure... he has been so outspoken against the casinos because of what is happening in his own backyard, & I would have expected him to avoid playing in one. I was wrong. I'm not. Casinos pay their guarantees (sometimes bigger ones) like anyone else. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 00:57:49 EDT From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Return to The Scene of The Crime-NJC All this talk of the village IDIOT this from theNY Times seems to cover the complete failure of this administration.. Peace Mingus Return to the Scene of the Crime By FRANK RICH PRESIDENT BUSH travels to the Gulf Coast this week, ostensibly to mark the first anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. Everyone knows his real mission: to try to make us forget the first anniversary of the downfall of his presidency. As they used to say in the French Quarter, bonne chance! The ineptitude bared by the storm b no planning for a widely predicted catastrophe, no attempt to secure a city besieged by looting, no strategy for anything except spin b is indelible. New Orleans was Iraq redux with an all-American cast. The discrepancy between Mr. Bushbs bheckuva jobb shtick and the reality on the ground induced a Cronkite-in-Vietnam epiphany for news anchors. At long last they and the country demanded answers to the questions about the administrationbs competence that had been soft-pedaled two years earlier when the war first went south. Whatbs amazing on Katrinabs first anniversary is how little Mr. Bush seems aware of this change in the political weather. Hebs still in a bubble. At last weekbs White House press conference, he sounded as petulant as Tom Cruise on the bTodayb show when Matt Lauer challenged him about his boorish criticism of Brooke Shields. Asked what Iraq had to do with the attack on the World Trade Center, Mr. Bush testily responded, bNothing,b adding that bnobody has ever suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attacks.b Like the emasculated movie star, the president is still so infatuated with his own myth that he believes the public will buy such nonsense. As the rest of the world knows, the White House connived 24/7 to pound in the suggestion that Saddam ordered the attacks on 9/11. bThe Bush administration had repeatedly tied the Iraq war to Sept. 11,b Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton write in bWithout Precedent,b their new account of their stewardship of the 9/11 commission. The nonexistent Qaeda-Saddam tie-in was as much a selling point for the war as the nonexistent W.M.D. The salesmanship was so merciless that half the country was brainwashed into believing that the 9/11 hijackers had been Iraqis. To achieve this feat, Dick Cheney spent two years publicly hyping a bpretty well confirmedb (translation: unconfirmed) pre-9/11 meeting in Prague between Mohamed Atta and a Saddam intelligence officer, continuing to do so long after this specious theory had been discredited. Mr. Bushbs strategy was to histrionically stir 9/11 and Iraq into the same sentence whenever possible, before the invasion and after. Typical was his May 1, 2003, oration declaring the end of bmajor combat operations.b After noting that bthe battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September 11th, 2001,b he added: bWith those attacks, the terrorists and their supporters declared war on the United States. And war is what they got.b To paraphrase the former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke, this was tantamount to saying that the Japanese attacked us on Dec. 7, 1941, and war with Mexico is what they got. Were it not so tragic, Mr. Bushbs claim that he had never suggested a connection between the 9/11 attacks and Iraq would be as ludicrous as Bill Clintonbs doomed effort to draw a distinction between sex and oral sex. The tragedy is that the country ever believed Mr. Bush, particularly those Americans who were moved to enlist because of 9/11 and instead ended up fighting a war that the president now concedes had bnothingb to do with the 9/11 attacks. A representative and poignant example, brought to light by The Los Angeles Times, is Patrick R. McCaffrey, a Silicon Valley auto-body-shop manager with two children who joined the California National Guard one month after 9/11. He was eager to do his bit for homeland security by helping protect the Shasta Dam or Golden Gate Bridge. Instead he was sent to Iraq, where he was killed in 2004. In a replay of the Pentagon subterfuge surrounding the friendly-fire death of Pat Tillman, another post-9/11 enlistee betrayed by his country, Mr. McCaffreybs death was at first officially attributed to an ambush by insurgents. Only after two years of investigation did the Army finally concede that his killers were actually the Iraqi security forces he was helping to train. bHe said we had no business in Iraq and should not be there,b his mother, Nadia McCaffrey, told the paper. Last weekbs belated presidential admission that Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks on America that inspired Patrick McCaffreybs service was implicitly an admission that he and many like him died in Iraq for nothing as well. Mr. Bushbs press-conference disavowalof his habitual efforts to connect 9/11 to Saddam will be rolled back by the White House soon enough. When the fifth anniversary of 9/11 arrives in two weeks, you can bet that the president will once again invoke the Qaeda attacks to justify the Iraq war, especially now that we are adding troops (through the involuntary call-up of reservists) rather than subtracting any. The new propaganda strategy will be right out of Lewis Carroll: If we leave the country that had nothing to do with 9/11, then 9/11 will happen again. But before we get to that White House P.R. offensive, there is next weekbs Katrina show. It has its work cut out for it. A year after the storm, the reconstruction of New Orleans echoes our reconstruction of Baghdad. A btruth squadb of House Democrats has cataloged the bwaste, fraud, abuse or mismanagementb in $8.75 billion worth of contracts, most of which were awarded noncompetitively. Only 60 percent of the city has electricity. Half of the hospitals and three-quarters of the child-care centers remain closed. Violent crime is on the rise. Less than half of the population has returned. How do you pretty up this picture? As an opening act, Mr. Bush met on Wednesday with Rockey Vaccarella, a Katrina survivor who with much publicity drove a breplicab of a FEMA trailer from New Orleans to Washington to seek an audience with the president. No Cindy Sheehan bumbs rush for him. Mr. Bush granted his wish and paraded him before the press. That was enough to distract the visitor from his professed message to dramatize the unfinished job on the Gulf. Instead Mr. Vaccarella effusively thanked the president for bthe millions of FEMA trailersb complete with air-conditioning and TV. bYou know, I wish you had another four years, man,b he said. bIf we had this president for another four years, I think webd be great.b The CNN White House correspondent, Ed Henry, loved it. bHollywood couldnbt have scripted this any better, a gritty guy named Rockey slugging it out, trying to realize his dream and getting that dream realized against all odds,b he said. He didnbt ask how this particular Rockey, a fast-food manager who lost everything a year ago, financed this mission or so effortlessly pulled it off. It was up to bloggers and Democrats to report shortly thereafter that Mr. Vaccarella had run as a Republican candidate for the St. Bernard Parish commission in 1999. It was up to Iris Hageney of Gretna, La., to complain on the Times-Picayune Web site that the episode was ba huge embarrassmentb that would encourage Americans to bforget the numerous people who still donbt have trailers or at least one with electricity or water.b That is certainly the White House game plan as it looks toward the presidentbs two-day return to the scene of the crime. Just as it brought huge generators to floodlight Mr. Bushbs prime-time recovery speech in Jackson Square a year ago b and then yanked the plug as soon as he was done b so it will stop at little to bathe this anniversary in the rosiest possible glow. Douglas Brinkley, the Tulane University historian who wrote the best-selling account of Katrina, bThe Great Deluge,b is worried that even now the White House is escaping questioning about what it is up to (and not) in the Gulf. bI donbt think anybodybs getting the Bush strategy,b he said when we talked last week. bThe crucial point is that the inaction is deliberate b the inaction is the action.b As he sees it, the administration, tacitly abetted by New Orleansbs opportunistic mayor, Ray Nagin, is encouraging selective inertia, whether in the rebuilding of the levees (bOnly Band-Aids have been put on themb), the rebuilding of the Lower Ninth Ward or the restoration of the wetlands. The destination: a smaller city, with a large portion of its former black population permanently dispersed. bOut of the Katrina debacle, Bush is making political gains,b Mr. Brinkley says incredulously. bThe last blue state in the Old South is turning into a red state.b Perhaps. But with no plan for salvaging either of the catastrophes on his watch, this president can no sooner recover his credibility by putting on an elaborate show of sermonizing and spin this week than Mr. Cruise could levitate his image by jumping up and down on Oprahbs couch. While the White Housebs latest screenplay may have been conceived as bMission Accomplished II,b what webre likely to see play out in New Orleans wonbt even be a patch on bMission: Impossible III.b ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #305 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------