From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #219 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, June 8 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 219 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Cheap Thrills [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: Jonifest down under ["don whiteman" ] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Cheap Thrills [Nuriel Tobias ] RE: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics ["Bill Dollinger" ] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Catherine McKay ] Re: The Starry Night [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Catherine McKay ] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Smurf ] NJC Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] VHS tape offer [Moni Kellermann ] Re: NJC Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Catherine McKay ] Another Drag Thingy [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: NJC Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Smurf ] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics NJC [Smurf ] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Bryan ] njc, 28th amendment & a great cartoon ["Patti Parlette" ] Re: "This Is Us", njc [Bob Muller ] Re: Hem and Over The Rhine in a late-night smoke-filled dungeon NJC ["ron] Re: Hem and Over The Rhine (NJC) [Joseph Palis ] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A=20Gay=20Men=20In=20Joni=27s=20Lyrics?= ["=?ISO-8859-] Great Joni Quote ["Patti Parlette" ] lori cullen sings two grey rooms [mags h ] Mandy Moore digs Joni [Joseph Palis ] Re: Billy Preston has passed on, njc ["Snatch N. Grabster" ] njc, more on marriage ["Patti Parlette" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:08:26 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Cheap Thrills Hi Nuri. I was curious about this too. I guess you are converting to US$. Isn't the currency in Israel, Sheckles? Retail price for CD albums in Australia is about $30.00. That's AU$. Prices have been dropping since internet technologies though. iTunes and the like have become very popular ways of buying music here and the stores are doing very poorly now. Joni's albums have never quite reached the cheap bins here. They are usually at normal retail price. That is except for the cheap versions when they are released. Sometimes Asylum or Warners will release a more generic version of the albums. You can tell the cheap ones by advertising of other albums on the inside cover. My copy of Hejira is one of those. I didn't know until I got it home. Sneaky! CD prices are a bit expensive in Australia yet still, statistics show that Australians are still the highest recorded music buying public in the world. Per head of population, Australians buy more CDs than any other country in the world. AU$30.00 is about US$42.00. Soccer fever is sweeping this country right now. Australia qualified for the World Cup for only the second time. The last time was 1974. Just think....the last time Australia played the World Cup, Court and Spark was a new release. Soccer has always struggled to gain popularity here because of the other established football codes. We are finally joining the rest of the world in the "world game". Good luck to all the teams. NP Sunday Session - Weekender featuring Zoe Johnston ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:49:21 +1000 From: "don whiteman" Subject: Re: Jonifest down under Hey Mark, A few years ago some guys fromthe Lee Shore List (list owner lives in Sydney) got together for an afternoon of good music and fun. They were good musicians as well so it was way cool. Count me in Don Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:38:22 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics <'See that tall girl? THAT'S A MAN!' That one too With a yellow feather fan'> Isn't a mistake though to equate transvestism with homosexuality? And in HiH, Emmie May ran away with one of the male band members which implies hetero, even if it was still scandalous because she was white and he was black. Bob NP: Pink Floyd, "Echoes" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:22:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: "Going cafe to cabaret..." could just as precisely describe a hetrosexual man going from place to place dreaming of finally realizing an idealized friendship, for instance. With a man or a woman. Further, I'd say the character you described smacks of someone with self-absorption issues. These types of people can be straight or gay, male or female. All are defined by a subconscious need to dominate and control. With regard to "going abroad and going wild," that could well be a very good example of grandiosity...it's the flip side of the depression coin. At any rate, these traits are not sexual preference related, in my opinion." True, but since the song was written about Geffen, i tried to imagine what's it like for a gay man to be free in Paris and to go from cafe to cabaret in search of a friend. I guess that need is true for both hetrosexual men and gay men, and we both agree on that. Several years ago Yoko Ono visited Israel and was interviewed in one of the major newspapers. She was asked about her relationship with Geffen (since in Israel every Jewish guy who made it out there is "our joy and pride") and i specifically recall her saying that "I love this man as much as he hates women and i respect him as much as he fears me". I'm reminded of that since you've mentioned the self-absorption issue which really can't "get worse" than the way it's described in another Geffen song, Lead Balloon. That "Sic her, Rover" lyric always makes me smile because i can't imagine anyone commanding a dog to attack a woman other than a nasty drama-queen who fears women and needs a dog to do it for him. The fact that Joni compares him to Bonaparte, a famous womanzier, is also so very cynical, and one can't escape the feeling that in some way it's Joni settling scores with the French theme in Free Man In Paris. "Gayboys with their pants so tight Out in the neon light". "I'd also remind you that clothing, from a sociological perspective, has a great deal to do with dignity and empowerment. The point the characters under the streetlight make to me as a listener/reader is, basically, "what the fuck do *you* care what *I'm* wearing? And what does that say about *you*? We're here, we're queer, etc..." I can assure you that i've never met any gayboy who wore tight pants for any other reason than to show off his ass or his pinus. Simple as that. It's a tempting thing that has nothing to do with we're here, we're queer. Gayboys cruising the streets, the m-m-m-madman lyric that follows - i don't know, it's simply not my cup of tea. "I'm not sure I understand the premise of your symbol analysis though, if you'd care to elaborate." As i see it, Joni was truely aware of the fact that drag queens were not only considered by religious fanatics as creatures from hell, but also by the fact that some members of the lesbian, gay, and bisexual community criticize drag queens and their participation in pride parades and other public events, believing that this projects a limited and harmful image of gay people and impedes a broader social acceptance. Others see this point of view as misplaced misogyny or an intolerence of the diversity and history of the gay community, and some believe that drag promotes harmful stereotypes of women. Another thing that should be mentioned is the fact that drag started as an art form, and lots of drag queens consider themselves mainly as artists, and maybe, as artists, they were only ones Joni could relate to at that time. "Two Grey Rooms. If you don't have an opinion on a song, you never have to have a problem with it. That's what I've learned. Try not judging intent of the songwriter, because absolutely everything is filtered through the unique individual perception of the listener, I remind myself. We can't know Joni's 'real' intent with those images. Chances are, she doesn't even know, sometimes." But you see, Julius, i was talking about my unique perception as a listener:) If you read the song i've added by the end of my post, the one by Kate Bush, it's about a woman who is totaly fascinated by the amount of love and joy she found in her gay neighbours. Rainer Werner Fassbinder (who's film was the inspiration to this song) and Joni are also fascinated by the amount of love, but what really fascinates them (and that's a theme in all of Fassbinder's gay related films) is the tragic and the dark side of gay love, and i for one, and as someone who is addicted to gay related books, movies, poetry or any other form of art, am tired, if not sick, of this "cursed" attitude towards gay love. Do forgive me for what i'm about to say, my friend, but i honestly believe that it's "easier" and "more artistic" to deal with pain than with happiness. Sometimes i feel that artists are "afraid" to deal with the brighter sides of life and love for fear of being considered as childish and cheap and naive, and thank God that gay culture is finaly changing towards a brighter future and point of view, entering the light zone and leaving the shadows behind. Love, Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:42:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Cheap Thrills Mark-Leon Thorne wrote: CD prices are a bit expensive in Australia yet still, statistics show that Australians are still the highest recorded music buying public in the world. Per head of population, Australians buy more CDs than any other country in the world. AU$30.00 is about US$42.00. If you go to www.kazaa.com you'll see a "nice" ATTENTION USERS IN AUSTRALIA note (and i've seen it on other major dowloading sites as well). Maybe that explains it...:) Do you know why that's the case in your country, Mark? Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 09:49:56 -0400 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: RE: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics Joni also references gay men like Michaelangelo. And, consider the original titles for... I Had a Queen Lisping of Summer Lawns You Dream Flat Stomachs Fabulous Indigo Oscar Wildes Things Run Fast Bill - -----Original Message----- From: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Jamie's Box of Paints Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:42 PM To: Smurf Cc: Nuriel Tobias; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics lol Nuri you forgot Harlem in Havana 'See that tall girl? THAT'S A MAN!' That one too With a yellow feather fan' On 08/06/06, Smurf wrote: > --- Nuri says: > > > I can't think of any other gay lyrics in Joni's > songs, and if you can > think of others i'd love to know:) > > > "Blew." > > --Smurf > > > . > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > - -- I am a lonely Painter I live in a Box of Paints I'm frightened by the devil But I'm drawn to those ones that 'aint afraid... Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at http://uk.voicespro.com/jamie.zubairi1 acting CV and showreel at http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 and on myspace at http://www.myspace.com/jamiezoob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:50:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: <'See that tall girl? THAT'S A MAN!' That one too With a yellow feather fan'> Isn't a mistake though to equate transvestism with homosexuality? And in HiH, Emmie May ran away with one of the male band members which implies hetero, even if it was still scandalous because she was white and he was black. Bob, could you please explain why you consider that man as a transvestite? Thanks, Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:15:07 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics "See that tall girl...that's a man!" I have to explain why I consider that line as describing a transvestite? I don't see how you can interpret it in any other way. Bob NP: Richard & Linda Thompson, "Shoot Out the Lights" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:29:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: "Going cafe to cabaret..." > could just as precisely describe a > hetrosexual man going from place to place dreaming > of finally realizing an idealized friendship, for > instance. With a man or a woman. Further, I'd say > the character you described smacks of someone with > self-absorption issues. These types of people can be > straight or gay, male or female. All are defined by > a subconscious need to dominate and control. With > regard to "going abroad and going wild," that could > well be a very good example of grandiosity...it's > the flip side of the depression coin. At any rate, > these traits are not sexual preference related, in > my opinion." > > True, but since the song was written about Geffen, > i tried to imagine what's it like for a gay man to > be free in Paris and to go from cafe to cabaret in > search of a friend. I guess that need is true for > both hetrosexual men and gay men, and we both agree > on that. For my part, I never thought of that as being either a gay or a hetero thing, but rather the fact that the free man is free because he's away from his home and office. He's out of town, out of the country and he's not doing business deals, so he has time to spend roaming the streets and cafes, looking for the "very good friend of mine" - someone who would possibly be a true friend (or lover, who knows?), and not someone just making nice and sucking up because he or she wants something. Not that there's anything wrong with your interpretation. As we know, Joni's lyrics are open to many meanings. He talks to Joni about there being "nobody calling me up for favours, and no one's future to decide" and laments that he'd "go back there tomorrow, but for the work I've taken on, stoking the starmaker machinery behind the popular song." (Hey, David, you've got a choice, y'know! get your ass to Paris!) Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:34:39 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: The Starry Night Hell wrote: "I've always thought Joni was incorrect with this analogy, including her "paint a starry night again, man" comment on MOA. The painting involves the creation of the work, and should be compared to the writing of the song, not the performing. The performance compares to the exhibition of the artwork, and I suspect Van Gogh's "Starry Night" has been seen and/or reproduced at least if not more times than any of Joni's songs have been heard or covered." Hell, as I recall, Joni did make it clear in her prefatory remarks that she was comparing the performing arts against compositional arts. That said, I too take issue with her analogy - especially the words "nobody ever". For example, think of the instances of the record business (or fans) asking that a songwriter in effect write a particular song again - that happens all the time, eh ? Analogously, in the painting arena, I believe that Van Gogh has other paintings set in a starry night setting. Maybe somebody did ask him to "paint it again, Van" - or maybe the famous one was his second (or third) effort. Not to mention Monet's water lilies. That said, I think one of Joni's most admirable attributes as a songwriter is that she generally eschewed repeating a formula in her songs. There are, I'm confident, some exceptions. But by and large, the vast majority of her songs were fresh and original, not a copy of or variation on a prior success. Bravo ! I think I have noticed a few exceptions. For example, I think Little Green and The Circle Game are very similar in their musical structure, content and presentation (not in lyrical tone or content). And Bob Muller has noted that This Flight Tonight and The Good Samaritan are nearly identical (to Joni's credit, she only recorded one of those). Also, Joni wrote a song - The Wizard of Is - that was a takeoff on Leonard Cohen's "Suzanne" (she didn't record that one, either - good girl !). Does anyone have any other opinions re instances of Joni "repeating herself" ? ;-) Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:44:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: >i was talking about my unique > perception as a listener:) If you read the song i've > added by the end of my post, the one by Kate Bush, > it's about a woman who is totaly fascinated by the > amount of love and joy she found in her gay > neighbours. Rainer Werner Fassbinder (who's film was > the inspiration to this song) and Joni are also > fascinated by the amount of love, but what really > fascinates them (and that's a theme in all of > Fassbinder's gay related films) is the tragic and > the dark side of gay love, and i for one, and as > someone who is addicted to gay related books, > movies, poetry or any other form of art, am tired, > if not sick, of this "cursed" attitude towards gay > love. Do forgive me for what i'm about to say, my > friend, but i honestly believe that it's "easier" > and "more artistic" to deal with pain than with > happiness. Sometimes i feel that artists are > "afraid" to deal with the brighter sides of life and > love for fear of being considered as childish > and cheap and naive, and thank God that gay culture > is finaly changing towards a brighter future and > point of view, entering the light zone and leaving > the shadows behind. > Somehow tragedy is popular. That's why tragic operas where someone (preferably more than one) dies at the end are so popular. And hurtin' songs. And Greek tragedies, Shakespearean tragedies and on and on. Once again, I'm not sure if that's specific to gay literature. I wonder if it's one of those situations where you want to write a story about people who "shouldn't" be together (because one is rich and one is poor; or one is black and one is white; or because they're gay; or whatever) but, in order to get your story published, or your play or opera performed, you have to kill off your protagonists at the end, in order to satisfy society's apparent need to ensure that, by the end, people are all put back in their place again? I'm not sure if I buy that, but apparently, once upon a time you could only get away with showing forbidden love by punishing your lovers at the end. I suppose it's a bit of a trade-off. I agree that it probably is easier to write about pain than about happiness. If people are happy all the time, where's the story? You need some kind of crisis to keep people interested. I suppose you could do crisis, followed by happy ending and that would work, but then you'd be accused of being glib. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 07:59:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics Muller wrote: > I have to explain why I consider that line as describing a transvestite? I don't see how you can interpret it in any other way. Regarding men who dress in women's clothing, Mr. Muller, I think it's important for you to understand that trannies and drag queens -- at least according to a drag queen I once knew -- see a very big distinction between the two terms, and they're not synonyms or interchangable. A transvestite is most often a straight man, while a drag queen is usually a homosexual. (There's more to it, but that's all I have time to write about at the moment.) It's a distinction I didn't know about until 5 years ago or so, Bob, so I think that's probably why Nuri asked the question which ended up seeming bizarre to you. By the way, I think the HiH 'girls' were probably drag queens. Mwah, --Smurf . Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 11:15:39 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: NJC Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics Doesn't the term "trannie" refer to a TRANSEXUAL as opposed to a TRANSVESTITE? Anyway, it sounds like we're in agreement - my point is that men who dress in women's clothing are often categorized as being gay, and both of us are saying that that is not the case. I can see the line of demarcation between transvestites and drag queens, and would also concur that the latter are overwhelmingly gay. A quick view of the film "Wigstock" (with John Kelly performing a near cover of Joni's "Woodstock" with some altered lyrics) bears that out. Bob NP: Sufjan Stevens, "The Predatory Wasp Of The Pallisades Is Out To Get Us!!" (love his music, hate to have to type his song titles out in an NP) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 17:41:04 +0200 From: Moni Kellermann Subject: VHS tape offer I have a VHS tape with the documentary "Woman of Heart And Mind" which was recorded from a satellite broadcast (British TV). The tape is as new. As I now own the DVD, I no longer have use for that recording. If anyone (preferably European) would like to watch this, I will mail it to someone who is paying the postage. To send a tape to the UK, it's 4.5 EUR from here (= 3.10 BP). Please contact me off-list if you are interested. moni ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 11:57:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics - --- Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > a drag queen is > usually a homosexual.> > > Doesn't the term "trannie" refer to a TRANSEXUAL as > opposed to a > TRANSVESTITE? > and transsexuals (one s or two?) are sometimes called transgendered (people). I prefer transsexual, since our sex is male, female (or something in between) and gender should be used for nouns. I guess people are afraid of the "S" word though, so you see "gender" everywhere. I didn't realize the difference between drag queens and transvestites, although I guess I always thought of the drag queens as the more over-the-top types with the more outrageous clothing, and usually performers, as opposed to people that just wear the other sex's clothing. You learn something every day! (Weird that we should make such an issue of clothing. Women can wear pants and no one says anything, but let a guy wear a dress... or dress a boy in pink... when you think about it, it's pretty arbitary, not unlike such concepts as "traditional" marriage.) Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 11:58:35 -0400 From: "Cassy" Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics NJC From: "Nuriel Tobias" <<>> 'See that tall girl? THAT'S A MAN!' In my world, there are several types of men who associate more closely with women in a non-sexual way. I'm not talking about homosexuals who have a preference for men in a romantic and sexual way, I'm talking about those men who enjoy women sexually but also enjoy the feel of sexy lingerie or sensual fabrics or just enjoy the frou-frou and glamour of dressing as a woman. Cross-dressers are people of either gender who enjoy wearing clothes specifically designed to be worn by members of the opposite sex. They are not necessarily homosexual though some homosexuals enjoy cross-dressing; they enjoy the dichotomy of being two people in one. Often cross-dressers have alternate names and personas when they are "dressed". Many cross-dressers enjoy sex with the opposite gender. Cross-dressers tend to attempt to "pass" in the real world and are subtle in their attire and make-up. Many cross-dressing men are also submissive and need to be "ordered" or "forced" to wear women's clothing as a humiliation, even though wearing women's clothing is something they crave they need to be given "permission" in order to handle the emotional fall-out. (boy we're getting into some heavy psychology now). Transvestites are as the word origin would imply... trans = cross vestite (from vestments) = clothing But in my world the difference being that transvestites are more drama-oriented, their clothing choices are more glamorous, their make-up more evident, their behavior is overt and mannerisms exaggerated even though they have no desire to become members of the opposite sex. The term transvestite is often also applied to men who do cabaret drag shows though they are more accurately "drag queens". Homosexuals who enjoy cross-dressing are more usually considered transvestites. Pre-op transsexuals are men and women who live their lives permanently as members of the opposite sex. They take the appropriate hormones to alter their given-biological bodies and undergo intense psychological evaluation and counseling to prepare them for the physical gender-transition. They work hard at "passing" and do everything in their power to be perceived as women or men in their daily lives even though they have their given genitalia. Post-op transsexuals have undergone radical surgeries to transform their biological bodies to those of the opposite sex. They continue to do long-term hormone therapies and undergo psychological therapy as long as they require it. I have a very close friend who was born a man. At the age of 73 he decided that his children were all grown, he had retired from a high profile, high-paying career and he had ALWAYS been a woman in his head so why not achieve his life's goal and go for it. He underwent hormone/psychological therapies and finally went to Thailand to have his Adam's apple removed and a penilectomy. The techniques in Thailand are the most advanced in the world of gender transformation and much of the nerve construction of the genitalia remains intact, though reversed. The head of his penis was re-fashioned into a clitoris so that in most regards she is still sexually functional. It has taken a number of years to adapt but she is now a fully matured woman and happier than she has ever been in her life. She recently had to undergo hip-replacement surgery and, with her permission, her surgeon brought all of his medical students to her room for a class. She said she'd paid enough for her parts she might as well show them off! I also have a number of female friends who identify as males. In their close BDSM circles they are addressed as "daddy" and they dress in the masculine gender style. I guess if I socialized in other circles they would be considered "butch". younger (and a few older) women identify as "bois". I feel lucky to have such a cosmopolitan group of people I consider friends. Warmly, Cassy P.S. Just read Bob's question regarding "trannies"... a "trannie" is a transvestite. To be politically correct a person who is transsexual is named by their new gender only. NP: Midnight Cruiser - Steely Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 09:20:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Another Drag Thingy While drag queens have become famous, most people are unfamiliar with the drag kings - women, usualy lesbian, who often perform as exaggeratedly macho male characters. Joni's "tribute" (well sort of anyway) to the drag kings can be seen on both DJRD's album cover and in the Beat Of Blackwings video. After checking out several drag kings pics on the net i must admit that Joni did it even better! Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 09:24:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: NJC Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics Muller wrote: > Doesn't the term "trannie" refer to a TRANSEXUAL as opposed to a TRANSVESTITE? D'oh! There goes the toaster oven. --Smurf . Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:49:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics NJC Cassy wrote: >P.S. Just read Bob's question regarding "trannies"... a "trannie" is a transvestite. To be politically correct a person who is transsexual is named by their new gender only. Woo-hoo! I get the toaster oven back! --Smurf NPIMH: "Lola" and "Walk on the Wild Side" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 11:06:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Bryan Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics >Nuri you forgot Harlem in Havana >'See that tall girl? >>THAT'S A MAN!' >That one too >With a yellow feather fan' Of course it's possible that the tall girls with fans were really straight men...it could happen. Bryan Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 18:38:04 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: njc, 28th amendment & a great cartoon Kate B. wrote: Congratulations to you & ed! I was thinking of you as I listened to the idiot minds who try to rationally defend marriage as between one woman & man... they speak of protecting the institution...gag me!...of course they ignore the fact that ... what... 50% of marriages end in divorce (been there done that) & they don't seem to care about multiple marriages as long as its one at a time... Oui, felicitations, Jimmy and Ed! Twenty-eight years...wow! : ) I was thinking of you two also, along with so many more. Like my friends from Chile who now live in a Western state. "Gina" is a professor and will get a green card, but her partner "Maria", a visual artist, might get deported. If they were hetero, they could get married and stay together. Oh, yes, we must amend the consititution to *protect* us from the likes of these two beautiful humanitarians! Yeah, protecting the "sanctity of marriage" -- give me a BREAK! Excuse me, but I think we have a WAR going on ("and you know..."), and they waste precious discussion time trying to write discrimination into our constitution? Idiot minds indeed. Mix them up with master manipulators and oh, what a tangled web they weave.... I know this is the "Joni-List" and not the "End the Evil Empire List", so I have been a little quiet here lately. Today, however, I just have to spout off a bit. Forgive me. I am just so completely outraged about what is happening these days. Kate (SB soul sister!), the link you sent from Rolling Stone about Ohio, and Lori, the one you sent from the SF paper about the Pentagon's suspending a tenet of the Geneva Conventions -- I could barely read them because the information contained therein makes me INSANE. (Marianne, thanks for telling me that "Insanity is a sane response to insanity." That helped me feel a little better.) Kate, you asked where the outrage is? Mine is all bottled up in my chest, so now I have to let a little out, by sharing with you a cartoon from my local paper. I think Bob Englehart is a brilliant cartoonist. You'll like this: http://blogs.courant.com/bob_englehart/2006/06/june_7_2006.html#more "About this cartoon, Bob says ... The Dixie Chicks are ashamed Bush is from Texas, and as a Christian, I have to say I'm ashamed he's one of ours. President Jimmy Carter, one of my favorite people, is a born-again Christian like Bush but he had the good sense, high class and decency to not force his beliefs on other people. Bush not only wants to force his beliefs on us, but he wants to codify his opposition to gay marriage in the U.S. Constitution. He and his self-righteous, intolerant, hypocritical supporters won't be satisfied until they turn the United States of America into an Evangelical summer church camp. I have on my desktop a program called "Dashboard." It's a bunch of toys and games for bored office workers. I don't know why I have it. I'm not bored, or an office worker, but The Courant bought it and gave it to me, and I keep everything The Courant gives me. It has programs called "widgets" you can download from the Internet. One of the widgets I have is "Countdown Plus." It counts down to any date in the future you choose. I've set it for Jan. 20, 2009, the day Bush leaves office if he's not impeached before then. Today starts the countdown: Two years, seven months, 13 days, and not a minute too soon." Love and peace, Patti P. NPIMH: "....Well there're so many sinking now You've got to keep thinking You can make it thru these waves...." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:38:17 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics Let me put it to you this way, Nuri. I don't believe in Kate Bush. I don't believe in Fassbinder. I don't believe in gay related books, movies and poetry. But I believe in you. I believe in me. "Don't be afraid of something because it's easy to do." -Brian Eno (Oblique Strategies) "God is a concept by which we measure our pain. I'll say it again. God is a concept by which we measure our pain." -John Lennon "Don't postpone joy." -from a bumper sticker I saw while driving around beautiful sunny San Francisco yesterday. :-) - -Julius In a message dated 6/8/06 6:34:49 AM, nurielt@yahoo.com writes: > But you see, Julius, i was talking about my unique perception as a > listener:) If you read the song i've added by the end of my post, the one by Kate > Bush, it's about a woman who is totaly fascinated by the amount of love and joy > she found in her gay neighbours. Rainer Werner Fassbinder (who's film was the > inspiration to this song) and Joni are also fascinated by the amount of > love, but what really fascinates them (and that's a theme in all of Fassbinder's > gay related films) is the tragic and the dark side of gay love, and i for > one, and as someone who is addicted to gay related books, movies, poetry or any > other form of art, am tired, if not sick, of this "cursed" attitude towards > gay love. Do forgive me for what i'm about to say, my friend, but i honestly > believe that it's "easier" and "more artistic" to deal with pain than with > happiness. Sometimes i feel that artists are "afraid" to deal with the brighter > sides of life and love for fear of being considered as childish > and cheap and naive, and thank God that gay culture is finaly changing > towards a brighter future and point of view, entering the light zone and leaving > the shadows behind. > > Love, > > Nuri ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 20:28:46 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Billy Preston has passed on, njc Thanks so much for sharing this Randy. Michael McDonald's guitarist, Bernie Chiaravalle who is also a HUGE Beatles fan spoke yesterday of how it broght him to tears when the realization hit him that he was on the same stage (2004 Michael McDonald Soundstage concert) with someone who worked so closely with a group he loved so much and how much of an honor it was for him to be in Billy's prescence. Billy Preston's influences in the music world will be thought of and talked about for years to come. I am so thankful that he gave us what he did. Love, Sherelle Randy wrote: - - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" >Did you know that he wrote Joe Cocker's hit, "You Are So Beautiful"? Or >was >a session man on Sly's "There's a Riot Goin' On", Dylan's "Blood On the >Tracks" and the Stones' "Exile on Main Street"? I didn't ! Also had to smile at this: By 19, he'd hit the U.S. charts with a solo album of gospel instrumentals, The Most Exciting Organ Ever. Also didn't know: Last year, in one of his final appearances, he performed at a reunion in Los Angeles for the release of the Bangladesh DVD with Ringo Starr and Harrison's son Dhani on guitar.More recently, Billy can be heard on the latest albums by Neil Diamond and Red Hot Chili Peppers. Thanks for all the great music, Billy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 22:48:25 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: "This Is Us", njc hi >>>hell wrote >>>> I just bought this album (All The Road Running) and can thoroughly >>>> recommend it. Their voices combine beautifully and Mark Knopfler's >>>> guitar work is superb as ever (and just as distinctive).<<<< i finally got a copy on saturday & have been listening to it quite a bit. i have mixed feelings tho. while there voices do combine superbly, & mark's guitar work is of course brilliant, it just somehow seems a little bit inconsistent & disjointed. songs like "this is us", "rolling on" & "all the roadrunning" just somehow dont fit in with "i dug up a diamond" & "red staggerwing" - they just seem a little too for me. mind you i have been listening to it & enjoying it consistently. especially in the car - it is really, really good driving music. one which i also got on saturday which i absolutely love is dave alvin's "west of the west". dave sings songs by various california songwriters, like jackson browne, merle haggard, tom waits, kate wolf & others. believe it or not it is my first dave alvin studio album ( i have two live albums). just about everything on this album is perfect. his singing is a lot more mellow & relaxed than the live albums, the musicians are great, greg leisz has done a great job on the production. only part i cant quite rave about is the last track surfer girl by the beach boys which i just cant quite get. i know i tend to get a bit over excited & rave about new music - but this album really is worth a listen ron np - dave alvin - loser ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 14:33:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: "This Is Us", njc Rave on, brother! I haven't heard that one by Dave Alvin but it sounds great. I've been a fan ever since that first Blasters LP way back when, and I've seen him live several times, a couple times at The Handlebar and once in Atlanta opening for a certain Joni Mitchell. Thanks for the news. Bob NP: Sting, "We'll Be Together" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 22:30:18 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Hem and Over The Rhine in a late-night smoke-filled dungeon NJC hi >>>joseph wrote >>>>I watched the Chapel Hill leg of the spring tour of two of my favorite >>>>bands -- Over The Rhine and Hem................... Oh well, time for me >>>>to sleep. <<<<<< you can sleep after that!?!?!? :-) thanks for the wonderful report. i am so jealous - id love to see them live ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:59:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: Hem and Over The Rhine (NJC) Thanks Ron -- You'll love them for sure. Whats nice about gatherings like these is you end up talking to another fan and need not preface your sentence with a background because they are more likely to catch your drift. I had a lovely time. Joseph np: Katharine Whalen "Deed I Do" ron a icrit : hi >>>joseph wrote >>>>I watched the Chapel Hill leg of the spring tour of two of my favorite >>>>bands -- Over The Rhine and Hem................... Oh well, time for me >>>>to sleep. <<<<<< you can sleep after that!?!?!? :-) thanks for the wonderful report. i am so jealous - id love to see them live ron En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la meilleure protection possible contre les messages non sollicitis http://mail.yahoo.fr Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:27:52 -0659 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?LESLI=20A=20WATTS?=" Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A=20Gay=20Men=20In=20Joni=27s=20Lyrics?= nuri some of us see the dark side of love and try anyway. that's my take on the song and joni's approach to life. i hear what you're saying but one doesn't have to be gay to feel this tragedy and see this travisty. this coming from me and i've been with my guy for 30 years. so hey! And the lines about "gay boys with their pants so tight, underneath the street light" and "tonight i'm going dancing with the drag queens and the punks" both of these lyrics were written during the time when joni hung out at the now defunct club Nucleus Nuance on Melrose here in la. there was a nice dance floor and she had an abstract hanging on the wall. well, it was right next to a very popular gay bath house. and at this time the punk music scene was still strong so maybe she simply went dancing and saw the dudes hanging out. i dont know that's my take and yes there is lots of negativity out there take care lesli - ---------- Original Message ------------- Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 12:39:17 -0659 From: JRMCo1@aol.com To: nurielt@yahoo.com, joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics >Let me put it to you this way, Nuri. I don't believe in Kate Bush. I >don't believe in Fassbinder. I don't believe in gay related books, movies >and >poetry. But I believe in you. I believe in me. > >"Don't be afraid of something because it's easy to do." -Brian Eno (Oblique >Strategies) > >"God is a concept by which we measure our pain. I'll say it again. God is >a concept by which we measure our pain." -John Lennon > >"Don't postpone joy." -from a bumper sticker I saw while driving around >beautiful sunny San Francisco yesterday. > >:-) > Fassbinder's >> gay related films) is the tragic and the dark side of gay love, and i for >> one, and as someone who is addicted to gay related books, movies, poetry or >any >> other form of art, am tired, if not sick, of this "cursed" attitude towards >> gay love. > the shadows behind. >> >> Love, >> >> Nuri ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:19:27 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: Great Joni Quote Thanks, anon anon! As a person who *sort of* likes Joni quotes (understatement!), I've been wishin' and hopin' that Joni were talking more these days. To borrow some Shakespeare, and change just a word: "...She speaks yet she says nothing: what of that?....." But then you come along with this pearl! ("But soft? What light through yonder window breaks? It is my lady, O, it is my love!") "We have a war dictator who was not elected, he snuck in. so he punishes people that threaten him in any way, or even say something he doesn't like. It has no resemblance to democracy." - -- Joni Mitchell "O, speak again, bright angel!" Does anyone know when she said that? Does anyone have any more recent Joni quotes? JMOCDed minds want to know! Love, Patti P. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:51:18 -0700 (PDT) From: mags h Subject: lori cullen sings two grey rooms received a wonderful gift last night from a friend in spirit.... CD entitled: calling for rain artist: lori cullen www.loricullen.com ...piano strings, heart strings, it's all the same to me...haunting, like a thick fog rolling across the moors, delicious moody two grey rooms....wow she does a feine job....beautiful, and on this cd are covers of Bruce Cockburn's Fall, (hi Jenny!!) as well as a Lightfoot song (title slips me mind at this moment). check it out and let me know.... Bob, is this in your collection? Mags np: lover lay down, tim reynolds along side dave matthews , at luther college. yum yum. Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 01:49:13 +0200 (CEST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Mandy Moore digs Joni hi jonilistas-- Just read this entry in Mandy Moore's blog: " i'm totally digging my sunday evening. sitting with my step-doggie (he's in a very handsome sweater). listening to joni mitchell (ladies of the canyon). just watched 60 minutes (adore mike wallace) and about to have some sugar-free hot chocolate (sooo yummy). " the girl has taste, no? joseph np: Ma Rainey "Hear Me Talkin' To Ya" En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la meilleure protection possible contre les messages non sollicitis http://mail.yahoo.fr Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:57:07 -0500 From: "Snatch N. Grabster" Subject: Re: Billy Preston has passed on, njc According to some sources, Dennis Wilson cowrote You Are So Beautiful, but when the credits were issued, his name got left off. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:24:39 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: "This Is Us", njc Ron >especially in the car - it is really, really good driving music.< yup, I've been listening to it when I drive into the big town from where I live... perfect songs for driving through the cow pastures, horse farms & over the mountain... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 02:28:12 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: njc, more on marriage Kate B wrote... "....of course they ignore the fact that ... what... 50% of marriages end in divorce (been there done that) & they don't seem to care about multiple marriages as long as its one at a time... - -------- I couldn't resist sending this, a snippet from a column by a local humorist at the Hartford Courant (full article is at: http://www.courant.com/entertainment/columnists/hc-raucous0607.artjun07,0,6578123.story ) "...While the president's gallant attempt to save marriage is commendable, I don't think it goes far enough. If we are going to rescue the institution then it is important that all of the social forces chipping away at its foundation also be banned by the Constitution. Toward this end I propose the following provisions be added to the president's same-sex marriage amendment. The Why Buy the Cow When You Can Get the Milk for Free Act: Would make one-night stands illegal because sex outside of marriage is a sin, and also takes a major incentive for getting married off the table (so to speak). The Shack-Up Act: Would make it against the law for a man and woman to live in a marriage-like situation - share home, bills, engage in petty bickering - - without the union being legally sanctioned by the government. The Celebrity Act: Would make it verboten for actors, writers, musicians, directors and people famous for being famous from getting married more than twice in any given calendar year. The Trophy Wife Act: Would prohibit men who have made it in the business world from ditching the woman who helped them climb the corporate ladder in favor of the sweet young thing from bookkeeping who finds mature men fascinating and comb-overs a turn on. The Old Coot Act: Would not recognize late-in-life marriages between octogenarian billionaires and the bodaciously ta ta-ed, even if the latter party's motivation is nothing other than true love. The Shotgun Marriage Act: Would give fathers the power to use all necessary force to require males with carnal knowledge of their daughters to make an honest woman of her. The Man on Dog Act: Would address a fear voiced by Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum that gay marriage ultimately could lead to sexual relations between humans and members of the canine community. (Note: No one is quite sure if this is a widespread problem, or something that goes on only in Pennsylvania.) - ---- Really now, where would they end? And what about the polygamists? "And you just have to laugh, cuz it's all so crazy..." Love, Patti P. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #219 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------