From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #218 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, June 8 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 218 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [JRMCo1@aol.com] Subject: Re: The Greek Do What They Can ["mike pritchard" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:19:00 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics Hi Nuri, I'd like to take a crack at presenting some alternative perspective on your Joni lyrics and the extent gay men are reflected in them in particular, or not. You wrote: > I think the first time a gay character is mentioned in her lyrics (but for > the child in The Circle Game - hehe, just kidding!) is David Geffen's one in > Free Man In Paris (and we all know he's the man in that song). > It's very popular these days to talk about gay men (not all of them for sure > but still some and maybe a lot) as being succesful, well dressed, organised > etc', and Joni, i think, was clever enought to spot that image way back in > 1973, when the song was written. I actualy know and have met several gay men > who reminded me of the man in the song. Workoholics, loaded with money, gay men > who controled other people's lives and careers - and they were all waiting > for their next vacation abroad where they were less known and could go wild. I > for one don't find anything that's too gay in that song (well maybe the > Paris thing), but for the lines: > "Going cafe to cabaret > Thinking how I'll feel when I find > That very good friend of mine". > If that's the only gay thing you find in the song, I'd say there's none at all. "Going cafe to cabaret..." could just as precisely describe a hetrosexual man going from place to place dreaming of finally realizing an idealized friendship, for instance. With a man or a woman. Further, I'd say the character you described smacks of someone with self-absorption issues. These types of people can be straight or gay, male or female. All are defined by a subconscious need to dominate and control. With regard to "going abroad and going wild," that could well be a very good example of grandiosity...it's the flip side of the depression coin. At any rate, these traits are not sexual preference related, in my opinion. > Then comes the lyric from Underneath The Streetlight: > "Gayboys with their pants so tight > Out in the neon light". > Though i guess that that was indeed the fashion those days (for some gay men > or boys) i must say that this lyric "smells" a bit cheap to me and reminds > me of the way gay men were presented in porn, walking the streets at night > with tight pants to show off their goodies for sexsual purposes. I find that the > gay community still suffers from a very low image of sex hunting men, and > though that lyric may be considered as cool, i for one never liked it too much. > Hmmm. I'd say don't watch porn, Nuri. Especially if you're looking for character realism. I'd also remind you that clothing, from a sociological perspective, has a great deal to do with dignity and empowerment. The point the characters under the streetlight make to me as a listener/reader is, basically, "what the fuck do *you* care what *I'm* wearing? And what does that say about *you*? We're here, we're queer, etc..." Also, one can be sure that, without exception, we dislike things we see in others that we first recognize and don't like first in ourselves. Who specifically in the gay community suffers so, by the way? Have you? > Then comes Tax Free with the lyric: > "Tonight I'm going dancing > With the drag queens and the punks". > I like the fact that the drag queens here are a symbol for everyhting > that's opposed to the sanctimonious skunks and religious fascists, the ones who > dared to celebrate life no matter what. Mind you, i know for sure that punks > totaly dislike the gay scene and drag queens, and i've no idea where Joni got > the impression that they go so well together. > Did you consider that maybe she was going club-hopping? First a gay club, then a punk joint? You know, in a cafe to cabaret way? Just a thought. We all recognize the songwriter for her eclecticism. I'm not sure I understand the premise of your symbol analysis though, if you'd care to elaborate. > Then comes Two Grey Rooms. It's such a beautiful song...So warm and > emotional it never fails to bring tears to your eyes. The only problem i have with > this song - and i've seen this happening in too many art works that deal with > gay men - is that it's tragic. Like most sexualy active women characters in > art who usualy get "punished" at the end by death or illness or loneliness - > it seems to me (sometimes) that most artists can't "imagine" or maybe they're > not interested, which is even worse, in dealing with happy-endings > relationships between gay men. But the song is lovely, no matter what i'll say... > > If you don't have an opinion on a song, you never have to have a problem > with it. That's what I've learned. Try not judging intent of the > songwriter, because absolutely everything is filtered through the unique individual > perception of the listener, I remind myself. We can't know Joni's 'real' > intent with those images. Chances are, she doesn't even know, sometimes. But > there is most assuredly always beauty and profound meaning there for > everybody. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Nuri. You're loved back. > - -Julius > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:52:04 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Subject: Re: The Greek Do What They Can >>...Shakespeare knew this - you can only get intellectual so long and then you have to send fall staff in or you get the rotten tomatoes...<< Maybe it is time for somebody to put 'Falstaff' back into the story, and cut 'fall staff' out. mike in bcn np photek - solaris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:54:48 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: great job everyone Very interesting reading on today's list (#217). Great job everyone. Keep 'em comin'. mike in bcn np photek ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #218 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------