From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #129 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, April 5 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 129 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc [J Kendel Johnson ] Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc [J Kendel Johnson ] Re: Brokeback Mountain, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc [J Kendel Johnson ] energy conservation, njc ["Marianne Rizzo" ] RE: energy conservation, njc [Smurf ] Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: sacred earth ["Cassy" ] RE: Conspiracy theories/Heads in sand [Allmanfan54@aol.com] Re: Brokeback Mountain, njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc [vince ] life is for learning -- njc [vince ] Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc [J Kendel Johnson ] Re: car audio question njc ["ron" ] Re: energy conservation, njc ["Lori Fye" ] Page describes Joni, metaphorically ["Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" ] Re: energy conservation, njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: sacred earth [Catherine McKay ] Re: sacred earth ["Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" ] Bob Dylan njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Joni photo ["Patti Parlette" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:21:36 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc Since I was: Born in 1956 and grew up in the wide open plains of western Oklahoma, 45 minutes north of Larry McMurtry across the Red River in Texas, and about 90 minutes from Childress, Texas, where some of Brokeback Mountain is set Fell in love with a young man when I was 19, who was found dead in a ditch after he disappeared on his way to see me the day after Thanksgiving 1976 Married a girl from my highschool at 21, divorced her at 31, and remain the best of friends with her today Fathered two beautiful sons with her, who often express their deep and abiding affection for me, even in public, though they're now into their 20's And I live openly with my beautiful and also deeply loving partner David today, Here's the Letter to the Editor I wrote to the New York Times today: From New DVDs, in April 4s Times: BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN Two bisexual ranch hands, Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal, conceive a doomed love for each other in Ang Lees critically acclaimed drama. Universal, $29.98, R. Bisexual? Youve got to be kidding! Doing ones best to avoid self-loathing and public humiliation and go along with societal conventions and pressures does not make one bisexual! J P.S. It is my observation that Ennis and Jack were not encountering a duality of attraction to both sexes, but the -- for them -- devastating reality that being with a man who loves them back was "the ticket" for them. Hence, they are gay characters, not bisexual. However, in the end, it is the Romeo and Juiliet story retold -- of two star-crossed lovers who long profoundly to be with each other, in spite of their social surroundings -- and regardless of who else in the world might hold some level of attractiveness for them as well. Therefore, it's not about Jack and Ennis's sexual orientations nearly so much as how the love of your life can show up in the most unexpected and cruelly perplexing places. And I hope it nudges many human beings on the planet to think about the destruction created when we isolate ourselves from one another and label each other without engaging as inquisitive individuals. Smurf wrote: From today's gawker.com: Brokeback on DVD: Now With Less Gay From New DVDs, in yesterdays Times: BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN Two bisexual ranch hands, Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal, conceive a doomed love for each other in Ang Lees critically acclaimed drama. Universal, $29.98, R. (GAWKER'S COMMENT) Oh, so theyre bisexual ranch hands now? We eagerly await the anniversary release, then, by which point theyll be ranch hands who arent gay at all, man, but it was just after a party and they were really fucked up and, well, well never mention this again, right dude? Right. - --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:30:06 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc I respectfully disagree, and I think Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana would disagree, too. I think Ennis was more frightened of their love than Jack. And -- I know the last words of the film are controversial to a legendary degree, but... -- I believe Ennis exhibited a deep recognition of having paid the price for giving into his fears when he spoke the words "Jack, I swear..." at the end of the film. J "bluejr@adelphia.net" wrote: Original Message: - ----------------- From: mack watson-bush mackwatsonbush@charter.net Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:14:34 -0500 To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc >Jack obviously had more feelings for Ennis than vice versa. Oh now the trials and trumpets scored or will we pass this test For just as one loves more and more Will one love less and less. JR in NH - -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:47:17 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc J wrote: > P.S. It is my observation that Ennis and Jack were not encountering a duality of attraction > to both sexes, but the -- for them -- devastating reality that being with a man who loves > them back was "the ticket" for them. Hence, they are gay characters, not bisexual. In the "emotional" sense of the word bisexual -- if there is such a thing because, etymologically speaking, "bisexual" would not really be the correct word (Jerry or someone else, please correct me if I'm wrong) -- perhaps they were gay. In the "functional" sense of the word bisexual, they were ... bisexual. Afterall, wasn't Ennis more or less bragging to Jack about "putting the blocks" to a woman? (Or was he just stating a fact? I did love that phrase though; when was the last time you heard it used?) Or maybe it's just that the characters are like so many men who can stick it pretty much anywhere for satisfaction. (Mack excluded, of course.) REALLY ducking now, Lori ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:06:27 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc I think maybe you guys are forgetting the flashback to Ennis's childhood, when his father made a point of taking him to see very clearly what happened to gay men who lived together as lovers. He was emotionally scarred, yes, and not an emotionally healthy person, but I think the authors intended us to see that he was very much in love -- much more than just having found a longterm fuck buddy -- and also hopelessly imprinted by a traumatic childhood experience, reinforced by social pressures. Also, people in the Texas panhandle are no more all anything than any other group of people, so I celebrate the fact that Mack was able to live openly with his lover there in the 70s. I also know a man who feared living with his lover in rural Idaho because of an experience of two gay men being assaulted near his parents' farm when he was growing up in the 70s. There's some "live and let live" attitude in west Texas, and some hate, prejudice and homophobia in west Texas to this day. We make progress in staggered, uneven steps. I graduated from highschool in western Oklahoma in 1974, and my experience was that I was indoctrinated with much prejudice and homophobia. After my lover was killed at 19, I wrote a beautiful song about it, and my mother listened politely to it and then proclaimed "My son does not write a song like that". Later at 33, when I finally said the words to them "I am gay", my parents said, "Our son is not gay, never say that again, and never bring any of those people around here." Ennis rings absolutely true to me from the aspect of knowing for myself how excruciating it can be to be taught to derive my self-esteem and self-respect from being the best person I can possibly be and have part of "being the best" defined as never, under any circumstances engaging in disgusting, perverted homosexual attractions, or, God forbid, actual lovemaking." My parents and I did not speak for 6 months, and then, only after 6 years, when their dear freinds' son died of AIDS and they saw how deeply their friends regretted having been ashamed and secretive about their beautiful son, did they begin to wake up and navigate their way out of much culturally reinforced homophobia. Also, I did not have to wait to hear my parents' loathing and fearful reactions to my announcement at 33. I had known how taboo my sexual orientation was since I was 15. So I'm truly glad Mack had a very different experience right about the same time. My silver lining is that I have excavated that song, and I am putting together a compilation album project, to which Sara Hickman is contributing a song called "Juliet & Juliet", about being arrested in not-rural Houston, Texas in the 80s for kissing a girl, and Ben Taylor is contributing a song by his pal David Saw called "Boyfriend", about a guy who discovers he's not jealous of a girl's boyfriend because he finds him attractive himself. J mack watson-bush wrote: Lori wrote: Jack and Ennis were > basically little more than fuck buddies for a very long time. Yes, they > were in love, but that love didn't transcend quite enough. Yes, it was 1963 > (and 1973 and 1983), but plenty of other men took greater risks to be > together during those same times. - -- Growing up and then living most of my early life, 25 years, on the other side of the Texas Panhandle from Childress, Tx. (not a far distance) I don't know exactly what their, Jack & Ennis, problem was. I graduated from high school in 1975 and lived with my first love not long after in Canyon, Tx. Never had a bit of a problem from anyone. Makes the premise of the movie not quite ring true to me and wonder what kind of research the writer did to write the book. True, if you approached the wrong person you might have been beaten up but can't remember only one instance of that happening and nothing more severe ever occurred, to my knowledge. Ennis was an emotionally retarded individual who could not allow himself to be who he was, for whatever reason. He loved himself much more than he loved Jack. If they were in love, it wasn't much love as far as I can reason. So no need to duck as far as I am concerned Lori. Awful long way to go to get a fuck. Jack obviously had more feelings for Ennis than vice versa. That movie left a really sour taste in my mouth. mack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 18:21:43 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" Subject: car audio question njc Ron asked, >i just bought a car (only 16 years old!!!) Do i really need a head unit can't i just install an amp & speakers & use my i-pod as the head unit?> Ron, Yes, you can use the iPod's headphone jack in place of a head unit (the in-dash part that holds the controls and display). You could get a dash mounted holster for the iPod, and attach a adapter cord to reach a power amp. A few years ago, I bypassed the radio and attached a portable CD player to the car's power amp. I adjusted the volume from the CD portable. Rather than run the portable from AA batteries, I bought the correct adapter to reduce the vehicle's 12 volts to 3.5. If you have the wiring diagram for the car, or experiment for a few minutes, you can provide the power to the amp from a circuit which is on only when the engine is running, as long as it's a sizable wire, like #12. For example, you could tap into the circuit for the headlights. Be sure to put an in-line fuse on the power amp. You don't want to burn up the whole car if the amp shorts out. All of this is possible but you'd still have to buy a holster, a bunch of cables, adapters, a power amp, and speakers individually and... 1. When you're finished you will have a bundle of wires in your car. 2. You won't get traffic or weather reports when driving. Crutchfield says there are at least 10 ways to attach an iPod to your car stereo. I'll bet none of them involve duct tape or withering stares from the ladies: http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/S-ML5r1PbY3RL/reviews/2006/0321/ipod_mobil e.html Yeah, bypassing the head unit has a geek appeal, but here's my call: I'd do some oil changes myself and put the "savings" into a simple head unit and speakers. I'd get a deeply discounted package price and let some kid install the whole thing. It's no fun crawling under the dash once you've passed a certain age. Be sure to inspect the job closely *before* you pay for it. Who has the next question for the Playboy Advisor? Jim L'Hommedieu PS, I hope your 16 year old car is a Volvo 240 or 740. npimh: David Crosby singing, "I'm the worrrrrld's most opinionated man." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 18:24:33 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Brokeback Mountain, njc Smurf wrote: What Gawker is making fun of is the NY Times calling the two lead characters bisexual, rather than gay . . . which reminded me of some discussion here. So what were they? Gay or bisexual? I didn't see the movie. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:28:54 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc I also admit that, with regard to my sexual orientation, I was emotionally retarded and a coward in my 20s. mack watson-bush wrote: Lori wrote: Jack and Ennis were > basically little more than fuck buddies for a very long time. Yes, they > were in love, but that love didn't transcend quite enough. Yes, it was 1963 > (and 1973 and 1983), but plenty of other men took greater risks to be > together during those same times. - -- Growing up and then living most of my early life, 25 years, on the other side of the Texas Panhandle from Childress, Tx. (not a far distance) I don't know exactly what their, Jack & Ennis, problem was. I graduated from high school in 1975 and lived with my first love not long after in Canyon, Tx. Never had a bit of a problem from anyone. Makes the premise of the movie not quite ring true to me and wonder what kind of research the writer did to write the book. True, if you approached the wrong person you might have been beaten up but can't remember only one instance of that happening and nothing more severe ever occurred, to my knowledge. Ennis was an emotionally retarded individual who could not allow himself to be who he was, for whatever reason. He loved himself much more than he loved Jack. If they were in love, it wasn't much love as far as I can reason. So no need to duck as far as I am concerned Lori. Awful long way to go to get a fuck. Jack obviously had more feelings for Ennis than vice versa. That movie left a really sour taste in my mouth. mack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:23:23 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc Lori, thank you for this discussion, because, since seeing the movie, I have been saying "At last! Now I can have a DVD I can hand to people who seem to have so many questions about my romantic history." It's difficult for me to draw the picture very completely, but I totally understood Jack and Ennis having sex with women -- in some ways the way straight women sometimes have sexual encounters with other women. Yes, it works phsysiologically, but, as Ennis referred to when asking Jack if he ever felt like people were looking at him funny when he walked down the street -- and, also, as all of us experience to some degree as children -- once you buy into presenting a lie, where does it end? And, if a lovely, loving creature accepts the lie and wants to give you comfort and love, and you're trying so hard to "be right", it's very hard not to give it your very best try. So I understand all too well what you're saying about them being phsyically (physiologically?) bisexual, but lumping two gay men caught in a social nightmare in with people who really do find themselves to be bisexual -- which is also not always a walk in the park, by the way -- that's kind of insulting, isn't it? I agree there's got to be a much better word for it, though I haven't thought of it yet either; I just wouldn't use that one. J Lori Fye wrote: J wrote: > P.S. It is my observation that Ennis and Jack were not encountering a duality of attraction > to both sexes, but the -- for them -- devastating reality that being with a man who loves > them back was "the ticket" for them. Hence, they are gay characters, not bisexual. In the "emotional" sense of the word bisexual -- if there is such a thing because, etymologically speaking, "bisexual" would not really be the correct word (Jerry or someone else, please correct me if I'm wrong) -- perhaps they were gay. In the "functional" sense of the word bisexual, they were ... bisexual. Afterall, wasn't Ennis more or less bragging to Jack about "putting the blocks" to a woman? (Or was he just stating a fact? I did love that phrase though; when was the last time you heard it used?) Or maybe it's just that the characters are like so many men who can stick it pretty much anywhere for satisfaction. (Mack excluded, of course.) REALLY ducking now, Lori ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 18:29:14 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: energy conservation, njc I love them! I am making posters out of these. : -) - ----Original Message Follows---- From: Catherine McKay These aren't slogans but, because, as a nagging mother, I'm always saying them at home, they probably should be, because some people JUST DON'T GET IT! - - If you're not watching TV, turn the damn thing off!!! - - Why are there lights on in this room if there's no one in there??? (The lights are on, but nobody's home?) - - Who put the regular garbage in the recycling bin? - - Paper goes in recycling, not garbage-garbage! - - Food goes in the organic recycling bin, not the regular garbage! - - Walk, dammit! The exercise will do you good! and so on. - --- Bree Mcdonough wrote: > sun power...such a bright ideal!! > > > Not too original...but says a lot.. > > > good luck...babe.. > > Bree > > > >From: "Marianne Rizzo" > > > >Hi joni friends, > > > >We are making energy conservation posters in class > this week (right now). . > >. > > > >so if anybody has any ideas for energy conservation > slogans. . > > > >please send them to me. . . > > > > > >XOXOX > > > >Marianne > > > Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 18:30:47 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: energy conservation, njc that's beautiful honey. : -) - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Bree Mcdonough" sun power...such a bright ideal!! Not too original...but says a lot.. good luck...babe.. Bree >From: "Marianne Rizzo" >Reply-To: "Marianne Rizzo" >We are making energy conservation posters in class this week (right now). . >. > >so if anybody has any ideas for energy conservation slogans. . > >please send them to me. . . _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:25:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: RE: energy conservation, njc Marianne says: > if anybody has any ideas for energy > conservation slogans. . > > > > > >please send them to me. . . How about, "Phew! Couldn't you have found a way to recycle that methane?' Just trying to help, - --Smurf Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:33:33 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc > lumping two gay men caught in a social nightmare in with people who really do find > themselves to be bisexual -- which is also not always a walk in the park, by the way -- > that's kind of insulting, isn't it? THAT is an excellent point, J! Thank you for making it. Lori, who (in case you don't know, although most here do) is lesbian ... mostly ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 18:36:24 -0400 From: "Cassy" Subject: Re: sacred earth From: "Marianne Rizzo" <<< What are some of the many Joni references to the earth and such? >>> These are the lyrics that come to mind regarding environmental references of one kind or another: Woodstock I have come here to lose the smog Big Yellow Taxi "Hey Farmer Farmer Put away that D.D.T. now Give me spots on my apples But leave me the birds and the bees Please" Lakota (One of my favorites) I am Lakota! Lakota! Looking at money man Diggin' the deadly quotas Out of balance Out of hand We want the land! Lay down the reeking ore Don't you hear the shrieking in the trees? Everywhere you touch the earth she's sore Every time you skin her all things weep Your money mocks us Restitution what good can it do? Kennelled in metered boxes Red dogs in debt to you I am Lakota! Lakota! Fighting among ourselves All we can say with one whole heart Is we won't sell No we'll never sell We want the land! The lonely coyote calls In the woodlands footprints of the deer In the barrooms poor drunk bastard falls In the courtrooms deaf ears sixty years You think we're sleeping but Quietly like rattlesnakes and stars We have seen the trampled rainbows In the smoke of cars I am Lakota Brave Sun pity me I am Lakota Broken Moon pity me I am Lakota Grave Shadows stretching Lakota Oh pity me I am Lakota Weak Grass pity me I am Lakota Faithful Rocks pity me I am Lakota Meek Standing water Lakota Oh pity me I am Lakota! Lakota! Standing on sacred land We never sold these Black Hills To the missile heads To the power plants We want the land! The bullet and the fence broke Lakota The black coats and the booze broke Lakota Courts that circumvent choke Lakota Nothing left to lose Tell me grandfather You spoke the fur and feather tongues Do you hear the whimpering waters When the tractors come? Sun pity me Mother earth Mother Moon pity me Father sky Father Shadows Stretching on the forest floor Mother earth Oh pity me Father sky Father Grass pity me Mother earth Mother Rocks pity me Father sky Father Water Standing in a wakan manner Mother earth Oh pity me Sex Kills The ulcerated ozone These tumors of the skin This hostile sun beating down on This massive mess we're in! And the gas leaks And the oil spills And sex sells everything And sex kills No Apologies As druglords buy up the banks And warlords radiate the oceans Ecosystems fail Furry Sings The Blues Diamond boys and satin dolls Bourbon laughter ghosts history falls To parking lots and shopping malls As they tear down old Beale Street The Three Great Stimulants Last night I dreamed I saw the planet flicker Great forests fell like buffalo Everything got sicker And to the bitter end Big business bickered ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 18:46:28 EDT From: Allmanfan54@aol.com Subject: RE: Conspiracy theories/Heads in sand ......................Lemmings......................... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 16:14:51 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Brokeback Mountain, njc > So what were they? Gay or bisexual? I didn't see the movie. No fair asking. You have to see the movie and decide for yourself. (If Jim could cave and watch 9/11 Loose Change, you can watch Brokeback Mountain.) ; ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 16:16:11 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc > I also admit that, with regard to my sexual orientation, I was emotionally retarded and > a coward in my 20s. You weren't alone. Some might even say I'm STILL emotionally retarded! : ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 19:24:54 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc Lori Fye wrote: >My pov: yes, the characters were bisexual. Even if they were "numb" while >having sex with women (I got that from a local review of the DVD), they were >certainly and nonetheless doing it. They were able to achieve erection and >climax with women, hence they were -- technically and functionally -- >bisexual. > > I don't agree with this. "Functionality" is not orientation. >Or ... were they fantasizing about each other while having sex with women? >If the movie offered that as a possible explanation, I missed it. > Yes, you missed it. The movie showed the scene from the book: "I guess," said Ennis, slipping his hand up her blouse sleeve and stirring the silky armpit hair, then easing her down, fingers moving up her ribs to the jelly breast, over the round belly and knee up to the wet gap all the way up to the north pole or the equator depending on which way you were sailing, working at it until she shuddered and bucked against his hand, and he rolled her over, did quickly what she hated. > I >couldn't help but come away with the thought that Jack and Ennis were >basically little more than fuck buddies for a very long time. > You could have helped that. That was total love and passion by two people who struggled with who they loved in their separate ways. Ennis threw up and pounded the wall when Jack drove away the first time, after Brokeback. That kiss. That ain't fuck buddies. The only time Ennis' anger flared against Alma was when she reduced Jack and Ennis' relationship to fuck buddies. Many people have posted here as to how the book and movie captured their own lives. Are these people just fuck buddies or is there a hell of a lot more? Jack wanted them to be together. Ennis was scared, profoundly, of that. He also loves his daughters, and as well, loved his wife (as I did, which don't make me bi) - the movie phrases at as approximately from memory, "don't you talk about Alma, it ain't her fault" the last four words from the book as well. The movie phrased it, again from memory, "if this thing grabs ahold of us at the wrong time we'll be dead." That follows the book very closely, with Ennis adding "There's no reins on this one. It scares the piss out a me." The movie did not contain that last line, but conveyed it visually - Ennis first noticed each other as Jack rode the horse, Jack showing off for Ennis. Contrast that to Jack meeting his wife. If their only relationship was at Brokeback, then you could argue they were fuck buddies. The point is, their love compelled them to be together. That is all Jack wanted. That is what Ennis knew too late: "Jack, i swear..." That their love was the compelling factor could not be more clear, as well as the book ad movie do not dwell on the sex, they dwell on the love, on the relationship, on the struggle. > Yes, they >were in love, but that love didn't transcend quite enough. Yes, it was 1963 >(and 1973 and 1983), but plenty of other men took greater risks to be >together during those same times. > > Lucky other guys. Big fucking deal, other guys did this or that. Which one of us here has such great heroic sexual breakthroughs of which to boast? Who here has not known fear, has ever been reluctant to proclaim their sexuality in every situation, or on the other hand, felt it was no one else's business? People live in their own time and space with their own strengths and weaknesses. Shall we put down other singers because they do not take greater risks than the risks of their own lives - because they are not Joni or Judy or Joan we may despise them, put them down? Some one has to stay at home and raises the food that those revolutionary city slickers are eating. A point of Brokeback was these were not people who struggled with society, they struggled with love in the place where they were, in the reality of their lives. Jack and Ennis were not capable of going to San Francisco or New York, nor, should they be. There is more to life than one way to live it, and these people struggled to find it. They did not have a safe haven in where they lived - Annie Proulx wrote the story two years before the murder of Mathew Shepherd in Wyoming. How did hit on that when she wrote of Jack being killed? Maybe because reality for many people is different than it is for some, and she wrote of that reality, the movie showed that reality, which many people have claimed as their own. Go figure. Maybe they are just a bunch of gutless coward shallow fuck buddies? >So, for me: fuck buddies. > >Ducking now, > > You should. We have been great friends a long time. I don't think I ever noticed you being wrong before, but you are in this post, Lori. Many have claimed the emotional reality of Brokeback. Some have not, and have put down the movie (and thus, the beautiful short story) because it does not match the concepts that they have lived by. I find that very limiting. If we are not open to accepting the realities of others, if we put down and think of less of characters in a book/movie and for the arts lovers here, any character who expresses those realities, then we are defining others by our own parochialism and narrowness. J. Kendel Johnson in this place has written eloquently of how he found his place in this story. So has Mark in Seattle. So have others. So have I. If our lives, and our identification with the story of Jack and Ennis on whatever level, does not match the heroic archetypes of others, than whose problem is it, ours, or the others? And what have these holders of heroic archetypes done in their own lives that we should be so awed and cowed that we can thus put down Brokeback and its characters? If this story was not Truth enough, emotionally stated in words and on film, for some, then there are stories, other characters, other art, that they can lay claim to. That's cool. We all don't live by the same things. We all don't like the same movies. Some of us see art in places where it is and others have no artistic taste at all - oops, I meant to say, other people see art in different places. That is good, it keeps us all out of the same art museum gallery at the same time, and allows me to find seats in the theatre. You don't like the brilliant screenplay, fine, we can live our friends being wrong, and you weren't moved by stunning acting, then fine, same thing! :-) But fuck buddies? Rejecting the truth of some because "that love didn't transcend quite enough?" Frankly, that thought, expressed by several here, pisses me off. That is very judgmental. Show me your transcendent love. And since are we called to lead transcendent lives? Is not our own reality enough? Lori, others have said what you have said and I am responding to you, not them. That is because our friendship is deep enough to know that I don't write to attack you but to engage in the conversation, and you don't write to attack me, but to engage in that same conversation, not with wimp words, but with words that are - dare I say - transcendent. We can write hard because we do not write to hit hard, but to think hard, think together, and if not all agree, understand the lives and realities of others. And that is what Brokeback is about. Vince And I have seen the movie five times, which allowed me to spend a few viewings analyzing the quality of the film making in every aspect. There is one lack of continuity in one scene, and other than that, it is one of the finest films I have ever seen, incredibly crafted. Not one person here has said, I can identify with Jack and Ennis but I thought the movie was poorly made. No - every single criticism of the movie in the JMDL has featured the same thing: we did not like the story of Jack and Ennis, and the movie was not good. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 19:31:30 -0400 From: vince Subject: life is for learning -- njc J Kendel Johnson wrote: >I also admit that, with regard to my sexual orientation, I was emotionally retarded and a coward in my 20s. > > > Don't you ever saw that. Not ever. The song says: life is for learning. It does not say: I had all knowledge and understanding at age 20 and have lived accordingly. And just between you and me, no one else can read this: let's face it, a lot of people who had it together about their sexuality at age 20 are pretty fucked up in other ways. Your life took the path it took because it was your life; consider what you would have gained, yes, but what else of your life, of you, what would you have lost had you had different awarenesses at different times than you did? Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 16:43:55 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc Lori Fye wrote: Lori, who (in case you don't know, although most here do) is lesbian ... mostly ; ) Yes, maybe it's been mentioned before, but we *have* totally left out the Kinsey Scale out of our discussion today. Funny how human beings seem to like to pigeon hole each other so much, huh? J ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 17:51:34 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc Vince, thank you for saying you have never known me to be wrong here before, even though I know I have been. And I'm apparently wrong now. You wrote a brilliant post. Perhaps it takes seeing Brokeback Mountain through the eyes of a gay man to get it, I don't know. I just know that I wasn't overwhelmed by the story. (Neither was my partner nor one of my best friends, but they are both lesbians too.) However ... > No - every single criticism of the movie in the JMDL has featured the same thing: we did > not like the story of Jack and Ennis, and the movie was not good. I didn't say either of those things. Regardless of whether or not it satisfied what *I* was looking for, the story is quite good, and I thought the movie was extremely well crafted and acted. I still think that Jack and Ennis seemed more like fuck buddies, but that means I just have to see the movie again, and I don't mind. I do recall the puking scene, though, and I remember being touched by that. I also remember Ennis flipping Alma over to take her from behind, and that struck me at the time as something a gay man might do if he were about to have sex with a woman. (So maybe I didn't miss it afterall?) Thank you for your honest and heartfelt response, Vince. My hat is off to you. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 01:37:54 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: car audio question njc hi >>>jerry wrote >>>>Try Crutchfield >>>jim elaborated > Crutchfield says there are at least 10 ways to attach an iPod to your car > stereo. I'll bet none of them involve duct tape or withering stares from > the ladies: > Yeah, bypassing the head unit has a geek appeal, but here's my call: I'd > do > some oil changes myself and put the "savings" into a simple head unit and > speakers. thnaks for the info - and for letting me know about the crutchfield site - quite useful with some good info. after shopping around & looking at the site i have decided to go with your suggestion jim - i have found a head unit (kenwood) with an ipod adapter / docking station which will let me plug the ipod in in my cubbyhole, & control it from the head unit. it will give me a display on the head unit as well which. all the other shops i went to tried to sell me head units with a mini jack auxilliary input on the front panel - which i wasnt too keen on. i will also be having it installed by the shop cause it will involve cutting metal away so that the sound from the sub can reach through into the passenger compartment. >>>>>>> PS, I hope your 16 year old car is a Volvo 240 or 740. nope - sorry :-) its an bmw 325. complete with a personalised muslim no. 786 numberplate. (786 is apparently a muslim holy number). ill have to be careful if i drive it anywhere near a 911 :-) ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 18:19:54 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: energy conservation, njc > How about, "Phew! Couldn't you have found a way to recycle that methane?" This reminded me of something I read yesterday, in last week's SF Weekly, regarding the issue of San Francisco's sewers and what to do about them. From that article (at http://www.sfweekly.com/Issues/2006-03-29/news/apologist.html), part of a questionnaire: 4) According to the PUC [Public Utilities Commission], the worst-smelling areas in town are Chinatown and Fisherman's Wharf, where restaurant owners dump excess grease directly down the drains into the sewers. Have you noticed other areas of the city that are especially rank? A) Ha. They actually believe that's *grease?!? *B) Excuse me, but there are intersections in the Financial District that make me literally pass out  or maybe that's just the smell you get when you mix hair gel, Starbucks, and gym sweat. C) Remember your last trip to the zoo? When your little tyke asked if that was the smell of animal poop, and you couldn't honestly say? That's the definition of "rank." I thought B) was particularly funny because I work in the Financial District (although only for 2 more days! yippee!), and I believe the noted observation to be true. ; ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 21:38:48 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" Subject: Page describes Joni, metaphorically In the October 15th 1992 issue, Cameron Crowe wrote about trying to convince Jimmy Page to grant an interview to the hated Rolling Stone. Page kept saying 'no'. Crowe picks up the story: >I told him his fans deserved to read about the band in the magazine (didn't work). Then I told him that I used to work at a record store, and our behind-the-counter joke was that if you bought only the records ROLLING STONE gave good reviews to, you'd have the worst collection of anyone you knew. This worked. "All right," he said finally, "I'll do the interview. But I won't pose for the cover." We completed the interview two nights later at the Plaza Hotel, in New York City, where he alternately discussed his life with Led Zeppelin and listened with rapture to a rare Joni Mitchell radio interview I'd borrowed from a friend ("Her voice . . . her voice . . . just listen to her voice"). Sitting on the floor of his presidential-sized suite, suitcases half-unpacked all around him, Page ended the interview on an oddly enigmatic note. He was still searching, he said, for an "angel with a broken wing." He asked to keep the Joni Mitchell tape, I said all right, and somewhere about three hours into sunrise he agreed to pose for the cover, too.> It was news to me. Jim L'Hommedieu http://www.cameroncrowe.com/eyes_ears/crowe_eyesandears_story.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 21:52:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: energy conservation, njc - --- Smurf wrote: > Marianne says: > > > if anybody has any ideas for energy > > conservation slogans. . > > > > > > > >please send them to me. . . > > > How about, "Phew! Couldn't you have found a way to > recycle that methane?' > > Just trying to help, > > --Smurf Speaking of brain farts... Marianne teaches kids, so I'd say that would be the perfect way to have them figure out environmental/ecology/energy conservation issues, while being gross at the same time. Entertaining while enlightening! Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 21:54:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: energy conservation, njc - --- Marianne Rizzo wrote: > I love them! > > I am making posters out of these. > > : -) And your students will say, "What are you? My mother???" Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 21:58:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: sacred earth - --- Cassy wrote: > From: "Marianne Rizzo" > > <<< What are some of the many Joni references to > the earth and such? >>> > > These are the lyrics that come to mind regarding > environmental references of > one kind or another: > > Woodstock > > I have come here to lose the smog > > Big Yellow Taxi > > "Hey Farmer Farmer > Put away that D.D.T. now > Give me spots on my apples > But leave me the birds and the bees > Please" > > Lakota (One of my favorites) > etc.... And the entire song, "Ethiopia". Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 22:08:17 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" Subject: Re: sacred earth In a highway service station, over the month of June, was a photograph of the earth taken coming back from the moon. You couldn't see a city on that marbled bowling ball, or a forest or a highway, or me here least of all. You couldn't see these cold water restrooms, or this baggage overload. Westbound and rolling taking refuge in the roads. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 22:36:35 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Bob Dylan njc Someone on one of my Bruce boards mentioned they had seen Dylan last night, and he wasn't playing guitar, only keyboards and harmonica. There are rumors that he can't play guitar anymore because of arthritis in his hands?!? This is the first I'm hearing of this, does anyone else have any knowledge of this, Jim? rosie in nj ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 20:39:42 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: 'Brokeback' revisited -- njc Vince wrote: The only time Ennis' > anger flared against Alma was when she reduced Jack and Ennis' > relationship to fuck buddies. - --First of all, these are fictional characters. The only one that could know their motivations would be the author, if the author even knew. Have to disagree with you on this one Vince, respectfully. I think he was angry because she knew and she told him that she had known. He didn't want to be found out and to have the mother, your (ex) wife tell you, in such tones, that she knows (knew) all along what you were doing. Pretty traumatic business, emasculating a revelation. What if she told others? What if she told his daughters? His lie was over and she knew. Somewhat irrational to be angry about it but human beings do react that way. That was my take on that scene. > You should. We have been great friends a long time. I don't think I > ever noticed you being wrong before, but you are in this post, Lori. - --I don't think she is wrong anymore than you or others that liked, loved this movie are. These are fictional characters. Subjective whether or not she is wrong. If that is the impression, what the movie gave her, she got from watching that flick, then it is right (for her). > > Many have claimed the emotional reality of Brokeback. Some have not, > and have put down the movie (and thus, the beautiful short story) > because it does not match the concepts that they have lived by. I find > that very limiting. If we are not open to accepting the realities of > others, if we put down and think of less of characters in a book/movie > and for the arts lovers here, any character who expresses those > realities, then we are defining others by our own parochialism and > narrowness. - --No, we are discussing a movie, not people, not living human beings, fictional characters made up in the minds of writers, the main being a woman I do believe. > > J. Kendel Johnson in this place has written eloquently of how he found > his place in this story. So has Mark in Seattle. So have others. So > have I. If our lives, and our identification with the story of Jack and > Ennis on whatever level, does not match the heroic archetypes of others, > than whose problem is it, ours, or the others? And what have these > holders of heroic archetypes done in their own lives that we should be > so awed and cowed that we can thus put down Brokeback and its characters? - --No one here has put down anyone. We are discussing a movie. > Some of us see art in places where > it is and others have no artistic taste at all - oops, I meant to say, - --An artist realizes that some will appreciate their art, others will not. Just because someone doesn't like something another person does, does not mean they have no taste. One could argue that anyone that listens to Eminem has no taste. Couldn't be farther from the truth. We all have different tastes and each and every thing affects us all differently. > fine, we can live our friends being wrong, and you weren't moved by > stunning acting, then fine, same thing! :-) - --Found the movie good, not great, performances average, not great. Perhaps that is just me. I'll live with my taste and let others have theirs. One should not condemn another for finding fault with a movie, fictional characters because of what the viewer has had in their life experience that led them to draw that conclusion, anymore than someone should be condemned for appreciating art, a movie because of their experiences. I am glad you enjoyed the movie Vince and it touched you so much. > But fuck buddies? Rejecting the truth of some because "that love didn't > transcend quite enough?" Frankly, that thought, expressed by several > here, pisses me off. That is very judgmental. Show me your > transcendent love. - --This was a movie. We judge movies. That is why some are hits and others are flops. Some of my favorites were great flops; they still touched me. Whether or not someone else liked, likes, them doesn't affect me one way or the other. movie in the JMDL has featured the same thing: we did not like the story > of Jack and Ennis, and the movie was not good. - --That is how some people saw it. Not a crime, most certainly not a personal attack on any living human being. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 22:52:33 -0400 From: Doug Subject: Re: Page describes Joni, metaphorically Coincidentally, I was watching a Led Zeppelin Bootleg DVD (Earls Court May 1975) I got in the mail today, and in the middle of Dazed And Confused They break into a verse from Woodstock in a way only Led Zeppelin could. Plus, of course Going To California which is at least partly about Joni. Doug Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama wrote: > In the October 15th 1992 issue, Cameron Crowe wrote about trying to convince > Jimmy Page to grant an interview to the hated Rolling Stone. Page kept > saying 'no'. Crowe picks up the story: > > > >> I told him his fans deserved to read about the band in the magazine (didn't >> > work). Then I told him that I used to work at a record store, and our > behind-the-counter joke was that if you bought only the records ROLLING > STONE gave good reviews to, you'd have the worst collection of anyone you > knew. This worked. "All right," he said finally, "I'll do the interview. But > I won't pose for the cover." We completed the interview two nights later at > the Plaza Hotel, in New York City, where he alternately discussed his life > with Led Zeppelin and listened with rapture to a rare Joni Mitchell radio > interview I'd borrowed from a friend ("Her voice . . . her voice . . . just > listen to her voice"). Sitting on the floor of his presidential-sized suite, > suitcases half-unpacked all around him, Page ended the interview on an oddly > enigmatic note. > > He was still searching, he said, for an "angel with a broken wing." He asked > to keep the Joni Mitchell tape, I said all right, and somewhere about three > hours into sunrise he agreed to pose for the cover, too.> > > > It was news to me. > > Jim L'Hommedieu > > http://www.cameroncrowe.com/eyes_ears/crowe_eyesandears_story.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 02:53:26 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: Joni photo Our Cassy wrote: "I don't know if anyone has seen the photograph Annie Leibevitz took of Joni for her book "Women" but it's so moving to me I had to share the knowledge of it's existence. The book contains photographs of only women; some are of famous people and some of everyday women. The accompanying text is written by Susan Sontag and the entire book is well worth a look even if it didn't have the most beautiful photo I've ever seen of a more recent Joni." Yes, I've seen it, because Cassy sent me the whole beautiful book! I regret not having shared this with you sooner. Forgive me...I'm always running behind the times! Here is part of the thank you I wrote her on March 17th, the day I received it. I'm pasting it here to show my first reaction: "My dearest Cassy: I got home from work and saw a package on my doorstep. I was very tired. I came in, opened it, flipped through it, thought "hmmm...great joni picture...great other pictures....i love cassy..." and then went on to feed the dogs and myself and answer phone messages and emails and open bills and all the other stuff we do when we single over-stressed moms get home. i've been exhausted, staying up too late, etc.....you know the drill. And then there's the grief over my dad, and Marianne's dad, and you know.... Finally, I got to sit on my bed in my nightgown and REALLY look at that Joni picture. I just stared and stared and stared and saw the essence of Joni. That is the most beautiful photo I have ever seen of her. God, I cannot express to you how beautiful it is....the hope and the hopelessness we've witnessed all these years. The strength of us women folk. The love. I can't wait to stare and stare and stare at these pictures some more......" Well, since then, I have looked at this book often,carefully and thoughtfully. It's filled with really moving and realistic portraits of everyday women and working women and famous women. From the music world there is: Yoko and all her experiences etched on her face, Laurie Anderson, Patti Smith, Courtney Love, Melissa Etheridge and her partner and their kids. Then there is Natalie Portman (didn't you just see her in that "V is for..." movie, Cassy, that you enjoyed so much?) and a really interesting photograph of the imperial and imperious Barbara Bush (I notice that she has two beady beads in each eye...creepy to me....I wonder how Annie captured THAT!). Susan Sontag writes: "Each of these pictures must stand on its own. But the ensemble says, So this is what women are now -- as different, as varied, as heroic, as forlorn, as conventional, as unconventional as *this*." But of course it is the photograph of Joni that steals the show pour moi! How can I do it justice? You have to see it for yourselves, of course, if you haven't yet. Next time you're in a bookstore, check it out. "Women" by Annie Liebowitz, with a great essay by Susan Sontag. If you want to experience it first on your own, stop reading now. Joni's photo takes up two pages (pp. 216 and 217). To me, it conjures up the photo on the cover of the novel "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" (duality!). It is a rather dark photograph. Joni is sitting on a round stone fountain, surrounded by lush but dark greenery. She is wearing and is draped in dark clothing. Only her face and her impossibly gentle hands are illuminated, and of course one of her hands holds a cigarette, although there is not much left to it. Her face shows the wisdom of the ages -- the hope and hopelessness she's witnessed nearly 60 years (the book came out in 1999, I believe). The look on her face says to me: "There's comfort in melancholy." Thank you again, Cassy. I treasure this gift -- and you. And you know.... Love, Patti P., feeling grateful ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #129 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------