From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #126 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, April 4 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 126 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Why are birds are active at night? [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Netflix - NJC [Bob Muller ] alternative film on 911 conspiracy filled with ver(gar)bage NJC [mags] Re: conspiracy theories, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Conspiracy theories/ 9/11 Commission Report (njc) [] Re: Conspiracy Theories (njc) [] Re: Netflix - NJC [Catherine McKay ] Politics? NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] time, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] bright nitegown [rsc1@humboldt.edu] Conspiracy Theories (njc) ["Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" ] Re: Politics? NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: Sheila chandra and joni [Randy Remote ] Re: time, njc ["gene" ] Re: Politics? NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: conspiracy theories njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Conspiracy Theories (njc) ["Lori Fye" ] Conspiracy theories (njc) ["Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" ] Re: conspiracy theories njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Conspiracy theories (njc) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Conspiracy theories (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Conspiracy theories (njc) ["mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Netflix - NJC Thanks for the tip - not only did I add it, I moved it to the top of cueue, so it'll ship to me tomorrow. That's another awesome thing about Netflix, I don't have to consolidate notes I get from magazines, email, conversations, etc and try to remember all those titles when I go to the video store - not that they would have them anyway, they have to keep room for a multitude of copies of all the latest box-office flops (the ones with numbers at the ends...) I just go to the site, find it, click on it, and there you go. Bob NP: Bright Eyes, "Arc of Time (Time Code)" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 17:44:19 -0700 (PDT) From: mags h Subject: alternative film on 911 conspiracy filled with ver(gar)bage NJC www.thatsjuststupid.com/video/911.conspiracy.wmv this link was posted as a gateway to an alternative view , perhaps meant as a challenge to the original film footage that Lori posted. I've just had a look at the above link to a 'much shorter film, (shorter duration necessary to compensate for lack of attention span?) and I must say that I am shocked that a piece of work such as this (see link above) would be taken seriously. First of all, the title "thatsjuststupid" sets itself up to NOT be taken seriously. In addition, the film (link posted above) utilises ver(gar)bage terms like: bullsh**, a**hole, f*** . The final bang (pun intended) for me was comparing the two towers to a red balloon. Yea. Right. critical analysis. as always, in my most humble opinion, Mags let us go then you and i ~t.s.eliot~ I'll keep on moving Things are bound to be improving these days These days- These days I sit on corner stones And count the time in quarter tones to ten, my friend Don't confront me with my failures I had not forgotten them ~jackson browne~ - --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1"/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:08:38 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: conspiracy theories, njc A Bush basher said: I do believe he is a dumb man.. . A dumbo? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 18:11:41 -0700 From: Subject: Re: Conspiracy theories/ 9/11 Commission Report (njc) Em wrote: > so what that video says, has no basis in reality? > Thats fine too, if that's the case then people *should* debunk it. And > I'd very much like to see a video or movie or TV show where someone I > trust says it to the whole country. Proves that this is all not true, > so we can go on with our lives. But at the moment it seems eerily natural, to maybe, sorta believe in > this all. I'd like to see, say, Anderson Cooper investigate, and tell us to our > collective face, that its not true and spell out the concrete reasons. Well, this whole discussion forced me to delve a little more deeply into the 9/11 conspiracy theories out there. All you have to do is Google 9/11 conspiracy or 9/11 truth movement. What I found was interesting. In some quarters, the video that was linked is considered a rip off of another video "In Plane Site" and I think the original "no plane at the Pentagon" theory and a video was first put forward by a guy in France. As you read through these various sites, it will boggle your mind - not because they have found the "truth" but because a number of the theories are actually originating from far right wing "theorists." There is also apparent "competition" among the left wing and right wing theorists and they spend hours debunking and refining each others theories. Anyway, you don't need Anderson Cooper to investigate and tell us what really happened. There is so much out there to read already that should give you many answers. As I recommended previously, you can start with the 9/11 Commission report which is available in a searchable Adobe pdf format here http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf Pop in some of the subjects raised in the video and see what the 9/11 Commission concluded. Here are just a few of the references and investigative conclusions to some of the questions posed: Stock purchases - pg.171-172 (pdf pg.189), and see note 130 on pg. 499 (pdf pg. 516) Flight 77 Cockpit voice recorder recovered but badly burned and not decipherable - pg. 456 (pdf pg. 473). Flight 77 telephone calls from passengers Barbara Olson and Renee May - pg. 9 (pdf pg. 26), and see note 57, pg. 455 (pdf pg. 472) Intelligence reports prepared during the 1990s regarding contacts and ties between Iraq and Al Qaida - pg. 468 (pdf pg. 485) notes 53 through 55, pg. 470 (pdf pg. 487, notes 74 through 76. It was not until 2002 - 2004 that reports of many (but not all) of these ties were thought to be erroneous. Here also is the official urban legends web page debunk http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 18:19:07 -0700 From: Subject: Re: Conspiracy theories/ Urban Legends (njc) Sorry, I gave the wrong link to urban legends debunk - here it is http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 18:37:33 -0700 From: Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theories (njc) Kate wrote: > In fact I was hoping for a reasoned argument about why it might not be > true. I have been trying to do that, but realized today that patience in some matters is not my strong suit. I watched the 9/11 coverage non-stop as it all unfolded and all the aftermath details for weeks. I read all the follow-up stories, watched or read transcripts of much of the 9/11 Commission investigation and still read about related issues. I very wrongly assume that everyone else did or does the same. Now I recall that many people did not want to watch it (for very understandable reasons) at the time so maybe now this video is the first bit of information they have reviewed. I thought it would be just impossible to succiently provide you with specifics of why people in the defense industry would think some things in the video were ludicrous. Besides, those who do work there or have in the past have to be careful what they say. But I think about how the video impies that crashing an aircraft was somehow practice for a 9/11 plot. Look at it this way - all the automobile manufacturers deliberately crash their products to learn about lots of things. So do aircraft manufacturers. The video producers imply that the fact the aircraft manufacturers would not give them details on their own controlled crashes is somehow indicative of a cover-up. You can google and see some examples. But look at it this way - if you are the aircraft manufacturer who produces both commercial and military aircraft, both of which may be tested at secured facilities, are you going to say "oh sure, Ill tell these documentarians what we were doing." They may not neccessarily be withholding information because they are involved in some nefarious government cover up but simply because they don't want their commercial competitors to know what they are up to! Much of the byzantine code of silence regulations in the defense industry do not have their roots in something nefarious. It's simply keep your mouth shut, no matter how mundane. Those mundane regulations permeate everything but if you think about them they make sense. We saw millions of papers and documents fall from the Twin Towers and blanket Manhattan. Many were blown out by the initial explosions and the rest in the collapse of the buildings. Same deal happened at the Pentagon, although on a smaller scale. Any video of the area could include highly classified government documents and with the technology we have nowadays, those video frames could be enlarged to probably read those documents. But we want to know! Well, not at the expense of classified materials being accessible to those who are not our friends. Yes these are somewhat simple examples, but sometimes the explanation is mundanely simple. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 22:02:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Netflix - NJC - --- Bob Muller wrote: > "Everything is illuminated." > > > Thanks for the tip - not only did I add it, I > moved it to the top of cueue, so it'll ship to me > tomorrow. Synchronicity strikes again. I'm sitting at the computer and Sarah is watching MuchMusic on TV. She calls me to come in quickly, and I do, and who are they interviewing on TV but Eugene Hutz, the young Ukrainain guy who plays the translator in "Everything..." He also did the whacked-out music for the film, as front man for Gogol Bordello, a group that has been described, pretty accurately IMO, as gypsy punk. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 22:56:14 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Politics? NJC I just read my post from earlier today to my sister.... involving conspiracy theories. I also read to her other posts..Kate..kakki...Em..Lori..Debra..and I told her about the video from which all this talk has arrived. Her question to me was: IF democrats would have been in power at the time of 9/11... and having the same facts you have now.... would you believe the possibility of government involvement credible, or just a far out Kooky idea? I told her I would ask the question. Bree ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 22:57:32 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: time, njc On Wednesday of this week, at two minutes and three seconds after 1:00 in the morning, the time and date will be 01:02:03 04/05/06. That won't ever happen again. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 20:13:33 -0700 (PDT) From: rsc1@humboldt.edu Subject: bright nitegown I'm with you on this one Bob! First time I listened to the CD, I kept wondering to myself "When is this going to end?". IMO it's WAYYYYY too long.... a generic riff and simpistic chorus that is repeated over and over. Donald should've faded it during the guitar solo... Gus >> Re: Morph the Cat >> and the unbelievably funky 'Bright Nightgown'. The last could easily >> be a dancefloor hit if anyone had the wit to market it. >> Rob > And funny that you mentioned "Brite Nitegown" as > one of your 4 classics as it's the only tune on > the CD that I think is on the weak side. Well, to > each their own after all. > > Bob > NP: Drive-By Truckers, "Marry Me" (new one from > them this month - can't wait!) It's good! We have it at the radio station where I do a weekly show, and I played some on Saturday night. The epitome of solid modern Southern rock!! best, Gus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 23:15:20 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" Subject: Conspiracy Theories (njc) Em said, >I'd like to see, say, Anderson Cooper investigate, and tell us to our collective face, that its not true and spell out the concrete reasons.> I think you should reject the conspiracy film makers until they can "spell out concrete reasons" of their own. But then, it would be a real short film. Apparently they made a ghost story. There's no intellect there, but everyone leaves thinking, "Ooooh, that's soooo scary!" The Fundamentalists manipulate their flock with fear. Micheal Moore and others use exactly the same technique on the Left. Michael Stipe said, "I decline." We all saw those aircraft hit WTC1 and WTC2. Kakki challenged, "Wouldn't a really good documentary provided answers, not questions?" Exactly. Kakki girl, you've still got it. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 20:18:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: time, njc - --- Laura wrote: > On Wednesday of this week, at two minutes and three > seconds after 1:00 in > the morning, the time and date will be 01:02:03 > 04/05/06. > > That won't ever happen again. > And it won't happen at al in those places in the world where it'll be 01:02:03 05/04/06 as they're argiung about the events of 11/9/01! - --Smurf Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 20:53:07 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Politics? NJC > Her question to me was: IF democrats would have been in power at the time > of 9/11... and having the same facts you have now.... would you believe > the possibility of government involvement credible, or just a far out > Kooky idea? > > I told her I would ask the question. > > > Bree Hmm...maybe they would've put some effort into preventing it from happening in the first place. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 21:01:31 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Sheila chandra and joni - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Smurf" > I know nothing about Sheila > Chandra, so I just googled and found out a bit. I'd > like to check out more of her music. Anyone have any > recommendations? "Weaving My Ancestors Voices" on Peter Gabriel's Real World label is a good one. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:01:26 -0700 From: "gene" Subject: Re: time, njc maybe not in our lifetime, but it will happen again. history repeats itself----------but then again if there is anything that we have learned from history---------is that we haven't learned from history. "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security" anybody remember where this passage was taken from? no, it's not one of joni's songs. take care gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 7:57 PM Subject: time, njc > On Wednesday of this week, at two minutes and three seconds after 1:00 in > the morning, the time and date will be 01:02:03 04/05/06. > > That won't ever happen again. > > !DSPAM:144,4431e50b16293659113977! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:09:43 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Politics? NJC > Her question to me was: IF democrats would have been in > power at the time of 9/11... and having the same facts you > have now.... would you believe the possibility of > government involvement credible, or just a far out Kooky > idea? > > I told her I would ask the question. My thought is that these events would have required so much planning over so many years that it's probable that some Dems would have to have been involved in some way too. Heresy, huh? When it comes to money and power, though, I think people are all pretty much the same, regardless of party affiliation. And isn't there some talk going around about how chummy Clinton and GHWBush were (are?), meeting "in secret" a bunch of times? I'll have to find where I saw that. In the meantime, for the record: NOTHING would surprise me. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:13:43 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: conspiracy theories njc JR wrote: > It wouldn't be "our" gov't, Lori. It's the Repubs, the party of > the plutocrats, by the rich for the rich, which would be gone > forever. That, I'd LOVE to see. See my previous post, JR. I hate to be a party pooper (as it were), but I don't really think there is a huge difference between the two dominant parties. The Dems talk a good game, sometimes even do the "right" thing. But they are (as my mother would've said) "rich bastards," too, don't make any mistake about that. Besides, it's still "our" gov't, because, even if you didn't vote the Repubs in, as long as you live in the U.S. the gov't in place is your gov't. Like it or don't, that's the way it is unless maybe you're actively trying to overthrow them -- and I don't see anyone trying to do that. Hell, half the population won't even VOTE. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:25:44 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theories (njc) > We all saw those aircraft hit WTC1 and WTC2. Yes, Jim, we did. Have you noticed that most of what we've been discussing is the aircraft that did or did not hit the Pentagon? Also check out the lack of debris in Shanksville. That aircraft hit the towers in NYC has never been in question. What TYPE of aircraft might be in question, but not that planes hit. However, there are BIG questions about why the planes and their attendant fires brought down those towers, and why WTC7 fell at all. Have you watched the video????? At least watch it, Jim, before giving answers to the new questions it asks. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 00:23:41 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" Subject: Conspiracy theories (njc) Lori said, >Don't you think the most newsworthy event in recent U.S. history would have SOME sort of video that shows plane wreckage?> I don't **want** to see bits of aircraft, burning jet fuel, iron girders, random baggage, and dying passengers. Lori, you don't want to see military personnel burning on TV, and neither do their families. How can you think it would comfort you to see more details? We all saw the towers collapse and heard an endless list of dead at the memorial services. Furthermore, I don't want al-Jezerra broadcasting it over and over again. In the US, we are better off when we don't give promotional videos to crackpots. Why would we help them recruit more people? The president served, just like you did. He flew jets in the Air Force, for God's sake. I didn't vote for him but I understand very plainly he did NOT authorize "hits" on the White House and the freakin' Pentagon! Two thousand dead is nightmare enough. You know that PBS isn't a mouthpiece for neo-cons, so will you please read what their science program, NOVA, said about the WTC collapses? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/collapse.html The governement is not the enemy. Fear and hatred are the enemies. Don't give in to fear. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:42:52 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Conspiracy theories (njc) > I don't **want** to see bits of aircraft, burning jet fuel, iron > girders, random baggage, and dying passengers. Lori, you > don't want to see military personnel burning on TV, and > neither do their families. How can you think it would comfort > you to see more details? I'm not looking for comfort, Jim. None of this is comfortable. But we see worse grossness on TV all the time, both reality and fantasy. If you don't want to see it, turn it off. Your desire to bury your head in the sand is disturbing to me, but it's your business to ignore it if you want. However, don't demand and expect that others don't want the answers, even if the evidence makes them sick. > We all saw the towers collapse and heard an endless list of > dead at the memorial services. What we're asking is WHY and HOW the towers collapsed. That they fell down has never been in dispute. > Furthermore, I don't want al-Jezerra broadcasting it over and > over again. In the US, we are better off when we don't give > promotional videos to crackpots. Why would we help them > recruit more people? Anyone who was aware of what happened and wants to join "them" can make that decision without added video footage. I doubt that added footage is going to push them over a line they weren't already willing to cross. > The president served, just like you did. He flew jets in the > Air Force, for God's sake. I didn't vote for him but I > understand very plainly he did NOT authorize "hits" on the > White House and the freakin' Pentagon! You are such a hopeful sort, Jim. That's nice. What about Cheney, who got - -- what? -- 5 deferments and who didn't serve? Besides, "He flew jets in the Air Force, for God's sake" is laughable on so many levels it hurts me to think about about. Bush was in the friggin' Air Guard, not the Air Force (and I served in both so don't tell me how they're the same; they're not), and he avoided Vietnam like the good little rich boy he is. He didn't fly jets in war. And he sure as shit didn't fly them "for God's sake." Bush doesn't do anything "for God's sake," despite all of his claims to the contrary. He is about as far from being a truly religious person as I am, probably farther. > Two thousand dead is nightmare enough. I agree. So why are we adding to that number by killing in Iraq and Afghanistan?? > You know that PBS isn't a mouthpiece for neo-cons, so will > you please read what their science program, NOVA, said > about the WTC collapses? > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/collapse.html I will. In the meantime, will you please watch the video we're discussing? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848 > The governement is not the enemy. Fear and hatred are the > enemies. Don't give in to fear. I'm not afraid, Jim. I simply want the gov't to provide answers and tapes and footage to answer the questions. It's not that difficult. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:49:35 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: conspiracy theories njc Debra wrote: > I expect Cheney, Bush and Co to have plenty of money in > Swiss bank accounts, but murdering U.S. citizens? Although > why would I think that's so strange considering they've > not had any problem sending kids over to Iraq to be > slaughtered and maimed. That's EXACTLY why I think their complicity in 9/11 is entirely plausible. Exactly why. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:51:26 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Conspiracy theories (njc) I wrote: > it hurts me to think about about. Apparently it hurts so badly I can't even compose a sentence correctly. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 23:13:06 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Conspiracy theories (njc) This is the most amazing timeline. Beware it is immense & detailed & often fascinating. I suspect the loose change documentary makers got a lot of their information from this site. Truly there are about 10 different documentaries you could make from all of this information. http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 00:28:37 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Conspiracy theories (njc) > The president served, just like you did. He flew jets in the Air Force, for > God's sake. - --Now that is sickening. Almost makes him look honorable except we know better, at least some of us. Mack ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #126 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------