From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #51 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, February 9 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 051 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The Wembley Concert Vine [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: Obligatory Award Show Rant njc [Bob Muller ] winningest NJC ["mike pritchard" ] Re: winningest NJC ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Re: winningest NJC [Em ] Re: winningest NJC [atel79@dsl.pipex.com] Re: delurking for suzanne vega njc [atel79@dsl.pipex.com] Re: "Mini-tribute" Feb 13 in Austin [Michael Paz ] Re: winningest NJC [Janet Hess ] Re: njC cohen interview on CBC ["Michael O'Malley" ] Re: njc: mohammed cartoons ["Sherelle Smith" ] `Patti? NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Joni and Carnegie ["Les Irvin" ] Obligatory Award Show Rant njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Joni and Carnegie [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Joni and Carnegie [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Obligatory Award Show Rant njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] njc Mohammed cartoons [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] shawn's fashion statement at carnegie njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: njc: mohammed cartoons [LCStanley7@aol.com] Obama Optimism NJC [Bryan ] RE: njc Mohammed cartoons ["Sherelle Smith" ] RE: njc Mohammed cartoons [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] RE: njc Mohammed cartoons ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: Obligatory Award Show Rant njc [Randy Remote ] Tre Cool is Randy's homie!!!!!!!! njc [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: RE winningest NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni and Carnegie ["Snatch N. Grabster" ] Re: Joni and Carnegie ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Obligatory Award Show Rant njc [Catherine McKay ] dolly and both sides now. ["clive sax" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 20:03:41 +1100 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: The Wembley Concert Vine < Just to let you all know the copy I have is going to Mark-Leon in Australia; shipping out Thursday. He says his brother may be able to convert it so that USA fans will be able to view it on their TV/DVD (Mark... if that happens, I will be SO grateful!); even if that doesn't happen, he will make PAL copies and/or copies to be viewed on computers as it originally was supposed to be (although I could not view the copy I had on my Mac G4 nor two friends' PC's). Kenny B (Having Night In The City Withdrawal Syndrome... I need another FIX...)> That's right Jonilistas. My brother rips DVDs all the time (for personal use only). I know his software removes the region codes because he has helped me out with some DVDs I bought on eBay. I asked him if it also removes or converts the format too. He said it does but he has never used it so, he can't guarantee it will work. As soon as I give it a try and it works, I will announce it to the list and send the NTSC copy to the first North American lista to request it. The original PAL version, I will send to the first UK, Australian, New Zealander or Japanese lista who requests it. Mark in Sydney NP Such a Shame (Gary Miller Remix) - Talk Talk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 03:23:39 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Obligatory Award Show Rant njc I was busting a gut when he walked out - I thought it was the dude from The Plasmatics with his white mohawk and alien spacesuit. And to think that somebody probably told him "Sly, you look great!" I was really just wanting to catch Bruce, which I did and his performance was very affecting, especially when he simply said "bring them home" after it and walked into the darkness - a great Bruce moment and in stark contrast to the fluff that had proceeded it. What is up with Mariah Carey and all that hand stuff she does? It was driving me batty. If I was deaf and thought she was signing I would be really twisted up. As always, the Grammys made me very glad I totally skipped listening to the radio in 2005. Bob NP: Sam Cooke, "Sad Mood" - --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:22:00 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: winningest NJC >>Krauss, the 34-year-old singer-fiddler who leads the band, has been credited with bringing bluegrass to a mainstream audience, but also criticized by some of the genre's purists. Nevertheless, Wednesday's wins lifted her total overall Grammy haul to 20 trophies, making her the music awards' winningest female performer ever. << Jerry, Deb, and/or anyone else interested in language; is the use of 'winningest' considered correct in US English? It is taken from CBS News' website. mike in bcn np Albert Bover - Esmuc Blues ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:11:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: winningest NJC mike pritchard wrote: >>>Krauss, the 34-year-old singer-fiddler who leads the band, has been >>> credited > with bringing bluegrass to a mainstream audience, but also criticized by > some > of the genre's purists. > Nevertheless, Wednesday's wins lifted her total overall Grammy haul to 20 > trophies, making her the music awards' winningest female performer ever. > << > Jerry, Deb, and/or anyone else interested in language; is the use of > 'winningest' considered correct in US English? It is taken from CBS News' > website. > Unfortunately, correct nowadays is whatever they make up or feel will draw readers. In this case, it is the youthful readers, who love what makes them feel good rather than what is grammatically correct. Do I sound like Joni? Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 05:27:27 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: winningest NJC I think people from Wisconsin say things like that. I remember when I was a kid (eons ago, in the 60's) our Wisconsin born and bred neighbor's kid told me we were the "mowingest" people they ever saw. LOL! as in my Dad mowed the lawn alot. seemed strange then, seems strange now. Em - --- "Gerald A. Notaro" wrote: > mike pritchard wrote: > >>>Krauss, the 34-year-old singer-fiddler who leads the band, has > been > >>> credited > > with bringing bluegrass to a mainstream audience, but also > criticized by > > some > > of the genre's purists. > > Nevertheless, Wednesday's wins lifted her total overall Grammy haul > to 20 > > trophies, making her the music awards' winningest female performer > ever. > > << > > Jerry, Deb, and/or anyone else interested in language; is the use > of > > 'winningest' considered correct in US English? It is taken from CBS > News' > > website. > > > > Unfortunately, correct nowadays is whatever they make up or feel will > draw > readers. In this case, it is the youthful readers, who love what > makes > them feel good rather than what is grammatically correct. Do I sound > like > Joni? > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 13:32:48 +0000 From: atel79@dsl.pipex.com Subject: Re: winningest NJC Quoting mike pritchard : > Jerry, Deb, and/or anyone else interested in language; is the use of > 'winningest' considered correct in US English? It is taken from CBS News' > website. > Technically, 'winningest' is indefensible. As colourful idiomatic English, however, I find it, and its antonym 'losingest', rather wonderful! Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 13:58:01 +0000 From: atel79@dsl.pipex.com Subject: Re: delurking for suzanne vega njc Quoting Sharon G : << Suzanne is known to be painfully shy but she is [not - I assume you omitted this word Sharon!] ungrateful or refusing of fans... i never seen her to refuse a picture or a signature [snip] Suzanne has more in common to joni mitchell than most songwriters. she is a paint artist, poet and songwriter. >> As I haven't met Suzanne Vega, I can't offer a personal anecdote, but the part about her being shy resonates with every interview I've seen, heard and read with her; and indeed it resonates with my experience of seeing her live on a number of occasions. While articulate and clearly highly intelligent, she did not strike me as a naturally gregarious person. I'd add that she is a superb live performer: she plays guitar beautifully; her singing is as clear as a bell; and she has a delightful, bone-dry sense of humour. I've even seen her doing an extended dance on stage! When you talk of her having something in common with Joni, I think you're really on to something. I've long had a faint suspicion that Joni felt slightly threatened by someone like Suzanne Vega, even though she has no real need to be, at least as far as the big picture is concerned - for all Suzanne's talent, I can't see her ever have a body of work to rival Joni's. On a smaller picture, and I accept this may be highly contentious, I think Joni has every reason to feel threatened, as I believe she's been overtaken by Suzanne Vega and a lot of other female singer-songwriters since Vega appeared in the mid 80s, in terms of the music they have produced *since then*. I could happily never hear Dog Eat Dog, Chalk Mark, Turbulent Indigo etc again; but make me go without Vega's 1st, 2nd and 4th albums, most of Shawn Colvin's and Jane Siberry's, Bjork and many others, and I'd suffer. I think Joni's oft-remarked ungraciousness towards other female singer- songwriters is her raging against the dying of the light - which makes it very poignant. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 08:08:23 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: "Mini-tribute" Feb 13 in Austin Jack and I will both be playing at this event on Monday. I am really excited about it and I am leaving ffor Austin later this afternoon. Have a great weekend everyone! Love Paz > FYI, for anyone who might be attending the Folk Alliance conference in Austin > later this week: > > Monday, Feb 13th, 1:00 pm > Joni Mitchell Tribute: > SONiA and others TBA! > > Music Room at the Austin Hilton TBA this Friday. > > www.folk.org > www.marketmonkeys.com/guerilla.html > www.soniadf.com > > J ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:11:01 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: winningest NJC The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Dictionary calls the word "informal:" "Informal More successful or winning more often than any others of its kind." I think most English teachers would say that the designation "informal" is being kind; bear in mind that the American Heritage Dictionary includes the f-word as well. I wouldn't use the word in any context, because to me it sounds corny and faux-breezy. At 07:22 AM 2/9/2006, you wrote: >Jerry, Deb, and/or anyone else interested in language; is the use of >'winningest' considered correct in US English? It is taken from CBS News' >website. > >mike in bcn >np Albert Bover - Esmuc Blues - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- dlmessling@rcn.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:11:09 -0500 From: Janet Hess Subject: Re: winningest NJC "Winningest" is a word that I've heard for years in sports reporting. As an example, the local Orioles broadcasts used to describe Earl Weaver as "the winningest manager in baseball." (OK, that one goes back maybe a generation or so, but still...) At least in sports, the term "winner" is still used; as we all know, the Grammy "goes to" someone, and the phrase "the winner is" seems to have disappeared from award shows. I must note, however, that the spell check feature of my version of Eudora has flagged "winningest" each time I've included it in this message. Ms. Welty must be proud up there in writer's heaven. Cheerz, Janet and Deanna Ivy the Wonderkitty, who ALWAYS keeps score ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:18:24 +0000 From: "Michael O'Malley" Subject: Re: njC cohen interview on CBC One last thing, the Feb 7th Cohen interview has beed archived online here : ) 42 mins. http://www.cbc.ca/soundslikecanada/interviews.html Michael in Quebec _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft. SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN. Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:38:14 -0600 From: "Arkay O'Malley" Subject: Re: Obligatory Award Show Rant njc I also have to add myself to the kelly clarkson fandom. she is a talented writer and has the ability to get her feelings across-she may seem trite, or played out or jsut unwelcome because of her american idol win, but her words speak volumes to me-jsut like another female songwriter i am very fond of. arkay > my annual unwelcome response :-) > > Randy Remote wrote: > >>re: 48th annual Grammy Awards >>I'm still in shock from the travesty of seeing Kelly Clarkson win out over >>Fiona Apple*, Sheryl Crow, Gwen Stefani and Paul McCartney. Hell in a >>bucket. >> > On reputation, yes, but Kelly Clarkson shocked everyone by earning this > victory - a great triumph of a true artist (who knew? who suspected?) > emerging from unlikely places to best the big names ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 06:47:11 -0800 (PST) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: delurking for suzanne vega njc Wow, Azeem, what responses you stand to receive re: "Dog Eat Dog, Chalk Mark, Turbulent Indigo etc" and Joni's "raging against the dying of the light", but I'm sure you've anticipated that! As for Suzanne Vega, I have a friend who's toured with her as an opening act, and I've had my own opportunities to observe her backstage/off stage, and she is quite a conundrum to me. I can concur that, in my observation, she is totally gracious with her adoring fans -- both on and off stage -- but in every instance I have seen myself, and in many described to me by others, she comes across as incredibly cold and unresponsive in her interactions with everyone else. I have seen her be warm and gracious with adoring fans who've bought tickets to the show, and then it's like her whole personality just drops, and anyone involved with the house, stage hands, fellow performers, etc.hardly gets an acknowledgement that they exist. There's something that, at least initially, I read as ill-tempered and irritated, like she's agitated and stressed and may go off any minute if everybody doesn't just leave her alone. The only guess about her that makes sense to me is that she must have an unimaginably low self-esteem (unimaginable to us, for someone so talented and successful), which is not unusual for performing artists, and, like a lot of others, she feels safe onstage, but extremely vulnerable and insecure offstage. I'm guessing she's a classic case of the shy person whose shyness comes across to most people as arrogant and callous. Or maybe that's not it at all! Who knows... And, as for her perfomance at Carnegie Hall, from my perspective on the 5th row, she totally phoned it in. I didn't experience her performance as in "her style", but with no style, no substance, no feeling. Then, true to her conundrum self, she is the one who said "Thank you for having me." as she accepted her applause, if I'm not mistaken. Now, about Dog Eat Dog... J atel79@dsl.pipex.com wrote: Quoting Sharon G : << Suzanne is known to be painfully shy but she is [not - I assume you omitted this word Sharon!] ungrateful or refusing of fans... i never seen her to refuse a picture or a signature [snip] Suzanne has more in common to joni mitchell than most songwriters. she is a paint artist, poet and songwriter. >> As I haven't met Suzanne Vega, I can't offer a personal anecdote, but the part about her being shy resonates with every interview I've seen, heard and read with her; and indeed it resonates with my experience of seeing her live on a number of occasions. While articulate and clearly highly intelligent, she did not strike me as a naturally gregarious person. I'd add that she is a superb live performer: she plays guitar beautifully; her singing is as clear as a bell; and she has a delightful, bone-dry sense of humour. I've even seen her doing an extended dance on stage! When you talk of her having something in common with Joni, I think you're really on to something. I've long had a faint suspicion that Joni felt slightly threatened by someone like Suzanne Vega, even though she has no real need to be, at least as far as the big picture is concerned - for all Suzanne's talent, I can't see her ever have a body of work to rival Joni's. On a smaller picture, and I accept this may be highly contentious, I think Joni has every reason to feel threatened, as I believe she's been overtaken by Suzanne Vega and a lot of other female singer-songwriters since Vega appeared in the mid 80s, in terms of the music they have produced *since then*. I could happily never hear Dog Eat Dog, Chalk Mark, Turbulent Indigo etc again; but make me go without Vega's 1st, 2nd and 4th albums, most of Shawn Colvin's and Jane Siberry's, Bjork and many others, and I'd suffer. I think Joni's oft-remarked ungraciousness towards other female singer- songwriters is her raging against the dying of the light - which makes it very poignant. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:55:46 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: RE winningest NJC >>Technically, 'winningest' is indefensible. As colourful idiomatic English, however, I find it, and its antonym 'losingest', rather wonderful!<< 'winningest' has 692,000 hits on Google, 'losingest' has only 23,000, although I note that the great sax player Archie Shepp has 154,000 and his misspelled alter ego Archie Sheep has 752. What does this tell us about literacy, or jazz fans in general? My gut feeling here, along with Azeem, is that it is indeed 'indefensible', and others have pointed out that it is considered 'informal', but I wonder if it is 'technically' indefensible. Why? It is, or at least has the same form as (and this is possibly the heart of the matter), a participle derived from the verb 'to win' and thousands of adjectives have the same form as past and present participles (annoyed, annoying, disappointed, disappointing etc). That doesn't make it a universal rule, and of course there are many exceptions, too many to name but you can all think of your own favourite examples. Not all adjectives are formed from participles, it goes without saying. I also agree with Azeem that it is colourful and idiomatic and if, as Suzanne Vega says, 'language is liquid' then there may point in trying to stop this kind of 'invention', and even if there were a point, the battle is already lost. All that remains is the debate, which is the best fun anyway. I recently saw the phrasal verb 'big up' for the first time and it startled me somewhat, but then I have a nervous disposition. mike in bcn np Josh Rouse - Winter in the Hamptons PS Is there a technical name for paradoxical expressions like 'it goes without saying', or 'not to mention' when you have just said, or mentioned something? And you know there may be more... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:59:40 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: njc: mohammed cartoons Hi Jennifer, I have a Danish friend who wrote to me about this controversy before it really took off and was heartsick about the situation. There was no real news coverage about it yet so I was a little baffled. Then it blew up like an explosion into what we are seeing now. While I have a healthy respect for those who are offended when something they take seriously is made fun of, I don't understand the need for violence and revulsion. This cartoon came from a newspaper that did it on their own. I think something is way out of proportion here. Sherelle Jennifer wrote: so what does everyone think of this controversy? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 10:31:26 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: `Patti? NJC While contemplating dipping potato chips in chocolate this morning...I'm wondering about Patti. Are you okay? Still on cloud nine? I was looking forward to your post tribute report..but nothing. Busy...I'm sure. VEGA: I'll have to give her another chance. I never cared for that little whiny voice..but have to admit... I never heard her body of work..just her hit. The equivalent of hearing only Joni sing BYT and nothing else...no Hejira..no Court & SPark..NO Blue... Bree ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:27:30 -0700 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: Joni and Carnegie Joniphiles - I spoke with the the director of the Music for Youth Foundation this morning and asked him for the real story on Joni and the tribute event. He told me that Joni had committed from day one to be in attendance. Throughout the planning process she was very supportive of the event - donating her painting for the promotional material and even approving the artists that were to appear (including nixing one unnamed artist). Four days before the event, they received the exact letter that was read to the audience regarding her sick cat. No other explanation was given. Discuss. :-) Les NP: Mark Lanegan "Carry Home" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:30:08 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Obligatory Award Show Rant njc >re: 48th annual Grammy Awards randy I always look forward to your post show comments! I hadn't even realized they were on tonight until just before the show... I wandered in & out so didn't catch the entire show... >I'm still in shock from the travesty of seeing Kelly Clarkson win out over Fiona Apple*, Sheryl Crow, Gwen Stefani and Paul McCartney. Hell in a bucket. Perhaps but it has been at least a decade plus (somewhere around the time when bonnie raitt & shawn colvin were recognized) since I've had any interest in these awards... so in theory it seems pretty right on as far as the shape of this "cesspool" biz (LOL) for someone from american idol to win a grammy... >Madonna is the hottest 47 year old on this jumpin' green sphere. Hmm, she's just one year younger than the awards... yes her strongest suit IMO has always been a dancer... >Alicia Keys looked so hot. Oh...uh...the music, yeah.. Actually, this was far from the worst grammy show ever, or I'm just getting old and less cranky. They all blur to me as mostly boring... however I will say that I did really enjoy many of the women's dresses this year... a bit of a nod to the 60's / early 70's flowing dresses styles... >Coldplay, boring U2 copy. > U2, you're starting to grow on me. Is there an ointment for that? U2 is a boring U2 copy IMO... I was an early U2 fan but haven't bought an album in years ... the 'hits' I've heard from them lately (meaning many years) have not done a thing for me... valium for the masses (maybe cuts off their albums are better?)... I do admire the band for still being together & have hopes they'll be great again plus I admire Bono for his amazing humanitarian work & influence >McCartney, not half bad for an old guy...great singing on Helter Skelter. I find "Fine Line" a bit of a snooze. Yes refreshing to hear him rocking out even if he wasn't my favorite Beatle :~} >Faith Hill/John Legend/Kelly Clarkson...I'm running to the fridge for a mayonnaise on white bread sandwich. Is that the best song they could find for her? yikes... talk about valium... >Bruce-excellent Dylan imitation. Highlight of the show! Powerful example of what just a solo performer can do (hi Rosie!)... I think Bruce has earned the right to be just his own excellent self although the camera angle & his hair did remind me of Dylan! >Cutest couple: Sting and Sheryl Crow Yes... although she is a little too skinny (I sound like my Mom... LOL) >2nd cutest couple: Bonnie Raitt and James Taylor. I think his hairline is receeding, though. Yes, Bonnie didn't dress up though (I still sound like my Mom) >Sly Stone, the legend appears. Nobody's seen this guy for 30 years. Kids, don't do drugs. Oy... this one made me uncomfortable & sad (with echoes of Brian Wilson)- he seemed frozen & at times not even playing his keyboard... the NYT must have been at a different show : "Mr. Stone did not disappoint. ... Resplendent in a silver overcoat and brightly colored Mohawk, he led the singers and band on the crowded stage in a rendition of "I Want to Take You Higher." Of all the amazing music at Woodstock 1969, Sly & the Family Stone energetic & uplifting set was the absolute peak of the entire experience (in a weekend that had many highpoints including Richie Havens extended evening set, CSN&Y's debut, Jefferson Airplanes morning set, Santana's debut & Jimi Hendrix's closing set) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:43:17 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Joni and Carnegie I think Julius' explanation earlier of a rift between the promoters and Joni's management is the best explanation. I'm surprised, though, that Joni didn't over ride it all. Also, it may have involved demands of her being allowed to smoke where and when she wanted. Jerry > Joniphiles - > > I spoke with the the director of the Music for Youth Foundation this morning > and asked him for the real story on Joni and the tribute event. > > He told me that Joni had committed from day one to be in attendance. > Throughout the planning process she was very supportive of the event - > donating her painting for the promotional material and even approving the > artists that were to appear (including nixing one unnamed artist). > > Four days before the event, they received the exact letter that was read to > the audience regarding her sick cat. No other explanation was given. > > Discuss. :-) > > Les > > NP: Mark Lanegan "Carry Home" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 11:52:10 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Carnegie She was not even in attendance for James Taylor's Tribute and I think she should have at least been there. After all, he was present for hers and given their history and all. This must be one poor sick little kitty. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 12:02:10 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Obligatory Award Show Rant njc In a message dated 2/9/2006 11:40:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: Highlight of the show! Powerful example of what just a solo performer can do (hi Rosie!)... I think Bruce has earned the right to be just his own excellent self although the camera angle & his hair did remind me of Dylan! reminded me more of Kramer:0) it's the hair plugs and or weaves.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 17:04:56 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: njc Mohammed cartoons I don't know that many of us can fathom the depth of the insult that bthese cartoons convey to conservative Islam. It is idolatry to make a representation of the Prophet, and to make demeaning representations of Mohammed is beyond inflammatory. In the same way, conservative Jews who understand the Decalogue in a certain way or follow traditional practice of not making any human attempt to replicaste the deity will never write the name of God, but G_d, nor pronounce the name of God (transliterated as YHWH) alound, instead, saying the word "Adonai" when reading a Scriptural passage. It is considered profane and idoltarous to make graven images - any represenatton - of the divine image and certainly profane for a human to say the name of the Holy One. Islam shares much of the same practice, especially as far as not making representations of Mohammed who is the Prophet but is not God, and thus not someone who is to be represented as if he were an object of worship. If some obscene cartoons blaspheming God were dropped into a Hasidic community, there would certainly be a reaction, although most probably not of this type and intensity. Judaism has in its history many examples of force being used to resist graven images in Jerusalem and elsewhere. But no Christian should say a critical word of the Islamic reaction to these cartoons considered the various Crusades, Inquisitions, burnings at the stake, Scopes Trials, bombings of abortion clinics and Planned Parenthood offices, and waging a generation of a Cold War against godless Commies, and other such things as Christians have done when they felt something holy was being profaned. And I say this as a Christian, and as a pastor. I am not proud of that history, but I cannot ignore it and then judge the Islamic reaction. In our more secular technological culture where we have so many images out there, it is easy for us to assume "artistic freedom" and "free speech" and "it's just an image, it means nothing." We casually delete all kindsof offensive images from our computers every day (or perhaps, get excited by them), for example. We forget the power of the image for those who are not bombarded by them constantly, as we are. Not so many years there was the famous "piss Christ" art and the African art where dung was used in religious representations. There were not riots in the streets - but there were people in the streets and a lot of Christians being offended and over reacting all over the place. Not that many years ago - early 90s maybe? - a group of black Chicago alderman stormed the student galleries at the Chicago Art Institute to destroy an artisitic representation of the late (and beloved, by me) Mayor Harold Washington, when they were offended by it. In our own culture, we have those who have made it illegal, or at least tried to, to see exhibits of Mapplethorp's work. And I bet I could conjure up ideas for an artistic display that could offend and cause violent, angry thoughts if not outright reactions from a number of people here - we all could, actually, if we gave it a little thought. What is going on in your state and community to ban video games deemed offensive? Try opening a porn shop across the street from a church. Chicago recently had problems when an art gallery across the street from a church displayed - damn them to hell - pictures of nekked people in the gallery. By a church! Zoning laws were introduced, not sure where that came out. I feel sorry for the Danes, having some knowledge of the Danish Lutheran Church and a lot of Danes, those are people who did not try and cause offense. Yet lets say that some Islamic artists portrayed King Christian giving a blow job to Hitler in Tivoli gardens while storm troopers castrate Jewish men and spear Jewish babies all around and put severed baby limbs around a statute of Hans Christian Andersen - there would be a reaction. Probably not of the scale we have seen - but a reaction, yes. Hell, go to the White House and stand on Pennsylvania Avenue and burn a US flag and see how tolerant we are of "its just an artistic expression" arguments. I am old enough to rememeber students shot at Kent State and hard hats attacking peace demonstrators. All depends on whose Mommahed is being mocked. My belabored point is that thee may be all other kinds of political games being played here but I don't think there are many who can sit in judgement and crtiticise. Trying to understand where others are coming from and how and why they are offended and seeing that in our own selves and our own cultures and religious backgrounds... using this as an time to examine our own selves and struggle with what artistic freedom means to us when our sensibilities are outraged - care to recall any Eminem threads here????? :-) --- seeing ourselves in others is what we need to do, rather than judging the others. Vince - -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Sherelle Smith" > Hi Jennifer, > > I have a Danish friend who wrote to me about this controversy before it > really took off and was heartsick about the situation. There was no real > news coverage about it yet so I was a little baffled. Then it blew up like > an explosion into what we are seeing now. > > While I have a healthy respect for those who are offended when something > they take seriously is made fun of, I don't understand the need for violence > and revulsion. This cartoon came from a newspaper that did it on their own. > I think something is way out of proportion here. > > Sherelle > > > Jennifer wrote: > > so what does everyone think of this controversy? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:10:06 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: shawn's fashion statement at carnegie njc She's so trendy. >The the first five days of Fashion Week were replete with upholstery and wallpaper patterns> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/09/fashion/shows/09DIARY.html?8hpib ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:37:37 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Joni and Carnegie At 08:27 AM 2/9/2006, Les Irvin wrote: >Four days before the event, they received the exact letter that was read to >the audience regarding her sick cat. Joni's devotion to her cats is well documented. "Man From Mars" comes to mind. She was distraught when her beloved Nietzsche disappeared. I don't think it was a snub, it was just as she stated in her note. A sick cat. You can debate whether a cat is more important than a tribute at Carnegie Hall but she is extremely attached to her pets. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:07:03 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: njc: mohammed cartoons Jennifer asked: so what does everyone think of this controversy? Hi Jennifer, Seen any good art lately? Want to go to Memphis with me sometime to see the Robinson photo gallery thingy? I haven't seen the cartoons you ask about so I can't say if I like them or not. Controversy can be good or bad depending on the reaction of people. I hope this isn't a case of 'Art Kills.' I see political and religious cartoons in the news papers here sometimes that are thought provoking and no doubt anger people . Freedom of expression is a good thing in my opinion, but there are certain sacred cows whose shit you have to step around for obvious reasons. I'm all for studying war no more and prefer tea leaves to prophets. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:03:48 -0800 (PST) From: Bryan Subject: Obama Optimism NJC >Not on the show, I don't believe: the next President of the United States, Senator >Barack Obama, won a grammy for best spoken word,beating out George Carlin, >Sean Penn, Garrison Keillor, and Al Franken. Obama the next president? This kind of unrealistic liberal optimism is the reason Democrats keep losing. He has about as much chance as Hillary Clinton, or George McGovern. Find the Democratic version of John McCain and you've got a credible candidate. Bryan - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:37:09 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: RE: njc Mohammed cartoons Thanks so much for the explanation Vince. I understand where you are coming from but I have to use my own standard of measure when I say that something is way out of proportion here. Yes, it would be offensive to me to use anything that I believe in and degrade, insult or ridicule it and I think most of us would be quite honest about having that reaction. However, my faith and my beliefs are not based external rules like that. I respect that someone else's are as they are all trying to give honor to God or their concept of God. I just think that as members of the human race, no matter what our beliefs, we cannot resort to violence to solve our differences. I think that's all I'm trying to say. Sherelle Vince wrote: > >I don't know that many of us can fathom the depth of the insult that bthese >cartoons convey to conservative Islam. It is idolatry to make a >representation of the Prophet, and to make demeaning representations of >Mohammed is beyond inflammatory. In the same way, conservative Jews who >understand the Decalogue in a certain way or follow traditional practice of >not making any human attempt to replicaste the deity will never write the >name of God, but G_d, nor pronounce the name of God (transliterated as >YHWH) alound, instead, saying the word "Adonai" when reading a Scriptural >passage. It is considered profane and idoltarous to make graven images - >any represenatton - of the divine image and certainly profane for a human >to say the name of the Holy One. Islam shares much of the same practice, >especially as far as not making representations of Mohammed who is the >Prophet but is not God, and thus not someone who is to be represented as if >he were an object of worship. > >If some obscene cartoons blaspheming God were dropped into a Hasidic >community, there would certainly be a reaction, although most probably not >of this type and intensity. > >Judaism has in its history many examples of force being used to resist >graven images in Jerusalem and elsewhere. But no Christian should say a >critical word of the Islamic reaction to these cartoons considered the >various Crusades, Inquisitions, burnings at the stake, Scopes Trials, >bombings of abortion clinics and Planned Parenthood offices, and waging a >generation of a Cold War against godless Commies, and other such things as >Christians have done when they felt something holy was being profaned. And >I say this as a Christian, and as a pastor. I am not proud of that >history, but I cannot ignore it and then judge the Islamic reaction. > > In our more secular technological culture where we have so many images >out there, it is easy for us to assume "artistic freedom" and "free speech" >and "it's just an image, it means nothing." We casually delete all kindsof >offensive images from our computers every day (or perhaps, get excited by >them), for example. We forget the power of the image for those who are not >bombarded by them constantly, as we are. > >Not so many years there was the famous "piss Christ" art and the African >art where dung was used in religious representations. There were not riots >in the streets - but there were people in the streets and a lot of >Christians being offended and over reacting all over the place. Not that >many years ago - early 90s maybe? - a group of black Chicago alderman >stormed the student galleries at the Chicago Art Institute to destroy an >artisitic representation of the late (and beloved, by me) Mayor Harold >Washington, when they were offended by it. In our own culture, we have >those who have made it illegal, or at least tried to, to see exhibits of >Mapplethorp's work. And I bet I could conjure up ideas for an artistic >display that could offend and cause violent, angry thoughts if not outright >reactions from a number of people here - we all could, actually, if we gave >it a little thought. What is going on in your state and community to ban >video games deemed offensive? Try opening a porn shop across the street >from a church. Chicago recently had problems when an art gallery across >the street from a church displayed - damn them to hell - pictures of nekked >people in the gallery. By a church! Zoning laws were introduced, not sure >where that came out. > >I feel sorry for the Danes, having some knowledge of the Danish Lutheran >Church and a lot of Danes, those are people who did not try and cause >offense. Yet lets say that some Islamic artists portrayed King Christian >giving a blow job to Hitler in Tivoli gardens while storm troopers castrate >Jewish men and spear Jewish babies all around and put severed baby limbs >around a statute of Hans Christian Andersen - there would be a reaction. >Probably not of the scale we have seen - but a reaction, yes. Hell, go to >the White House and stand on Pennsylvania Avenue and burn a US flag and see >how tolerant we are of "its just an artistic expression" arguments. I am >old enough to rememeber students shot at Kent State and hard hats attacking >peace demonstrators. All depends on whose Mommahed is being mocked. > >My belabored point is that thee may be all other kinds of political games >being played here but I don't think there are many who can sit in judgement >and crtiticise. Trying to understand where others are coming from and how >and why they are offended and seeing that in our own selves and our own >cultures and religious backgrounds... using this as an time to examine our >own selves and struggle with what artistic freedom means to us when our >sensibilities are outraged - care to recall any Eminem threads here????? >:-) --- seeing ourselves in others is what we need to do, rather than >judging the others. > >Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:54:19 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: RE: njc Mohammed cartoons Sherelle, I passionately agree. The non violent way of resolving this and similar situations begins I believe in identifying our commonalities, to understand, not to be judgmental, so that the conversation - much needed here - can begin. The history of Islam and the West has been violent for way too long. Vince - -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Sherelle Smith" I just think that as > members of the human race, no matter what our beliefs, we cannot resort to > violence to solve our differences. I think that's all I'm trying to say. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:04:56 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: RE: njc Mohammed cartoons Well said Vince! As I read your post I thought of the non-violent struggle of Dr. Martin Luther King along with his wife Coretta Scott King. I shudder to think would life would be like if Dr. Martin Luther King had not been there for the Civil Rights movement. It shows me that achieving accord can be done peacefully. Sherelle >From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) >To: "Sherelle Smith" , >levatorvelipalatini@yahoo.com >CC: joni@smoe.org >Subject: RE: njc Mohammed cartoons >Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:54:19 +0000 > >Sherelle, I passionately agree. > >The non violent way of resolving this and similar situations begins I >believe in identifying our commonalities, to understand, not to be >judgmental, so that the conversation - much needed here - can begin. The >history of Islam and the West has been violent for way too long. > >Vince >-------------- Original message -------------- >From: "Sherelle Smith" > >I just think that as > > members of the human race, no matter what our beliefs, we cannot resort >to > > violence to solve our differences. I think that's all I'm trying to say. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:15:20 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Obligatory Award Show Rant njc - ----- Original Message ----- From: "vince" > Randy Remote wrote: > >>re: 48th annual Grammy Awards >>I'm still in shock from the travesty of seeing Kelly Clarkson win out over >>Fiona Apple*, Sheryl Crow, Gwen Stefani and Paul McCartney. Hell in a >>bucket. >> > On reputation, yes, but Kelly Clarkson shocked everyone by earning this > victory - a great triumph of a true artist (who knew? who suspected?) > emerging from unlikely places to best the big names Kelly's a great singer and everything, and seems like a genuinely nice person as well, but the other names on the list are creative tours-de-force....okay, it was a vocal award, but I expected the grammy voters to have a little more....um, taste?.....while I was pulling for Fiona, who was a critic's fave this year, I fully expected Gwen Stefani to win this, or something at least, since her album was such a smash > I was not so impressed with all the U2 wins but Record of the Year > clearly was Boulevard Of Broken Dreams by Green Day and it won so I'm > happy. Not bad for a 2 year old song. Tre Cool grew up a few roads away from me. I did a gig with him once when he was in The Lookouts. They used to spray paint "Green Day" on the backs of the highway signs around here as a form of guerilla advertising. As B. Joe said, nice to hear rock music on the radio. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:28:07 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Tre Cool is Randy's homie!!!!!!!! njc You did a gig with Tre Cool???? Tre Cool is your homie???????? Wow!!!!!! Green Day is one group that I really want to see in concert. I am in awe of you now knowing that you appeared with Tre Cool. - -------------- Original message -------------- From: Randy who has been holding out on us Remote Tre Cool grew up a few roads away from me. I > did a gig with him once when he was in The Lookouts. They used to spray > paint "Green Day" on the backs of the highway signs around here as a form of > guerilla advertising. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 14:30:38 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: RE winningest NJC - --- mike pritchard wrote: > PS Is there a technical name for paradoxical > expressions like 'it goes without > saying', or 'not to mention' when you have just > said, or mentioned something? > And you know there may be more... > Redundancy? Here's something slightly related that drives me nuts: "Can I ask a question?" (Yeah, you already did, so get out!) I kinda like the sound of "winningest". As long as it's not used too often, I'd let it go. And Em, I thought "mowingest" was a good one. And then there's other weirdnesses: "You're a sight for sore eyes!" vs "You're an eyesore!" Vive la langue anglaise! Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:36:01 -0600 From: "Snatch N. Grabster" Subject: Re: Joni and Carnegie Tributes are a difficult thing. You can feel like you're attending your own funeral. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 11:38:15 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Joni and Carnegie Hmmmmm...??????. mack > Joniphiles - > > I spoke with the the director of the Music for Youth Foundation this morning > and asked him for the real story on Joni and the tribute event. > > He told me that Joni had committed from day one to be in attendance. > Throughout the planning process she was very supportive of the event - > donating her painting for the promotional material and even approving the > artists that were to appear (including nixing one unnamed artist). > > Four days before the event, they received the exact letter that was read to > the audience regarding her sick cat. No other explanation was given. > > Discuss. :-) > > Les > > NP: Mark Lanegan "Carry Home" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 14:40:49 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Obligatory Award Show Rant njc - --- Kate Bennett wrote: > >re: 48th annual Grammy Awards > > randy I always look forward to your post show > comments! I never watch the show but I always enjoy Randy's rants. I get all the news I need from Randy Remote! >Madonna is the hottest 47 year old on this jumpin' > green sphere. > > Hmm, she's just one year younger than the awards... > yes her strongest suit > IMO has always been a dancer... > She really needs to cover her ass though in that video they show on TV. I don't remember the name, but she's wearing only bum floss and wiggling her ass at the camera. My kids find it offensive because she's so old. On the other hand, there's the genius lyrics of "My humps." If that shite can make it to TV, what are we all doing out here writing pointless e-mails for no pay, to a group of only 800 or so? Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 14:34:17 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni and Carnegie - --- Les Irvin wrote: > Four days before the event, they received the exact > letter that was read to > the audience regarding her sick cat. No other > explanation was given. > I buy the sick cat excuse. Anyone who has, or has had, pets will understand this. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:59:21 +0000 From: "clive sax" Subject: dolly and both sides now. Hi all, I was just listening to Dolly Parton talk on BBC Radio 4 about her new album of 60's duets and she was chatting about Dylan and joni not dueting with her on their respective songs. Of Dylan she said he was absolutely not interested. Joni however was and the studio time had been booked, unfortunately joni's mum had a heart attack and Joni needed to go to Canada and arrange support etc for her parents. Dolly then went on to say that she intended to sing many more joni songs in the future and that she and Joni would be getting together. You can listen to the interview at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/frontrow/index.shtml and listen to tonights show again (Thursday) Clive xx - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fed up with spam in your inbox? Find out how to deal with junk e-mail here! ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #51 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------