From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2006 #20 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, January 20 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 020 Win a free VIP ticket to Carnegie Hall! details: jmdl.com/winvip.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: a secret post NJC ["mike pritchard" ] Re: a secret post NJC [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Best "Old" Album of 2005 (sjc) [Catherine McKay ] RE: njc, (people's) park central ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Truman and the Bareback Mountain guys - njc [Jerry Notaro ] Living Brokeback Mountain vljc [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] Re: a secret post NJC ["mike pritchard" ] RE: COUNTDOWN ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: a secret post njc ["Mark Scott" ] Re: a secret post njc [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: a secret post njc ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Re: a secret post njc [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: a secret post njc [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: a secret post njc ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Brokeback Mountain njc (contains possible spoiler) [atel79@dsl.pipex.com] Re: a secret post njc [Blair Fraipont ] Re: Brokeback Mountain njc (contains possible spoiler) [revrvl@comcast.ne] Re: a secret post NJC [Randy Remote ] Virus alert ["Les Irvin" ] njc Wyoming Cowboy [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] We are stardut, we are golden reggie (the royal we) [Gordon G Mackie ] trying to catch fecking Hell (NJC) ["Kay Ashley" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:43:28 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: RE: a secret post NJC 'Brokeback Mountain' opens tomorrow in Barcelona, I haven't seen the title yet (all my students will ask me what it means, same as with 'Blowing for Columbine') but in all likelihood it will retain the original title and add a subtitle which (may) help the Spanish audience to get an idea of what the film is about. I imagine the same situation (Hi Patty ;-)) will occur with 'Capote', of which I have seen nothing yet to suggest it will open here soon. Obviously I cannot comment yet on either film but I will say that I usually like Hoffman's acting very much. So there. Remember when white actors (Laurence Olivier, for example) used to be criticised for 'blacking up' for Othello, and other roles but especially that one, given that Black actors, Paul Robeson for example, and more recently Lawrence Fishbourne, are and were totally capable of playing that role to perfection? Has there been any suggestion (on Vince's lists, for example) that the roles of the two protagonists of Brokeback Mountain could have / should have been played by homosexuals? Are we now at a time where this question is indeed a stupid question and where (many, but I guess not all) 'straight' actors are prepared to play gay roles, or at least roles which are less 'virile', or 'manly' (whatever that means)? My point? Are there still any actors who are afraid to play gay roles, as it would harm their box office appeal, or have the bad old days finally disappeared? mike in barcelona np Asian Dub Foundation: Enemy Of The Enemy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:17:32 EST From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: a secret post NJC > My point? Are there still any > actors who are afraid to play gay roles, as it would harm their box office > appeal, or have the bad old days finally disappeared? > mike in barcelona > Interesting point, mike. I dunno. Can't help but think that maybe the time has come to consider the converse view of your question though. To wit: Are there any actors who are afraid to play *straight* roles, as it would harm their appeal...? Haha! No. Think of Rosie O'Donnell, Leonardo DiCaprio, Madonna, Ellen Degeneres, Portia De Rossi and you can be sure there are many more. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:40:29 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Best "Old" Album of 2005 (sjc) - --- PassScribe@aol.com wrote: > I thought you folks might be interested in a review > I just wrote for my > Writers' Journal: > > Ken Finds A Classic From 1971 > > Bruce Cockburn - High Winds White Sky [...] > Ibd guess itbs long out-of-print but, if you > can find it, Ibd > highly > recommend this collection to anyone seeking > intelligent, easy-listening music > from a singer-songwriter with something to say. > Au contraire, it has been reissued (along with many of Bruce's other earlier works). You can find it here: http://www.maplemusic.com/dept.asp?dept_id=1051 Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 04:57:26 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Best "Old" Album of 2005 (sjc) Kenny, I adore this album. Nice review! It's not out of print. There's also a reissue that came out in the past year or so with 2 bonus tracks. You can listen to most of the songs here: http://brucecockburn.com/highwinds.html True North Records is doing a nice job reissuing all of his albums..remastered, original artwork and previously unreleased bonus tracks. Wish Joni would do something like that. Jenny PassScribe@aol.com wrote: I thought you folks might be interested in a review I just wrote for my Writers' Journal: Ken Finds A Classic From 1971 Bruce Cockburn - High Winds White Sky During the course of 2005, I was constantly hearing music from various artists that I liked and wanted to check out further. Sometimes, I visit the East Meadow Public Library and borrow CDbs from their vast inventory that I may like enough to buy or make copies of. A recent album by Bruce Cockburn (pronounced Co-burn) had some good tunes on it but I wasnbt impressed enough to add it to my collection without hearing more; I checked with the library and found they didnbt have it. While I was browsing through the many titles at the library, however, I came across an early album by Cockburn entitled, High Winds White Sky, so I brought that home to listen to. Ironically, I loved this collection of sensitive and finely crafted tunes that are somewhat simpler than his newer material, and I was glad I found it. There are ten original songs in all and I think every one is a keeper. The vocals and acoustic guitar on the first tune, bHappy Good Morning Bluesb, reminded me of Paul McCartneybs upbeat style from his Red Rose Speedway days. bLet Us Go Laughingb is a slower, more deliberate ballad, and therebs a great, lilting piano riff throughout bGolden Serpent Bluesb butbironicallyb no one is credited in the liner notes as playing piano on this album. Fine acoustic guitar work, neat chord changes and thoughtfully poetic lyrics in the title cut, bHigh Winds White Skyb, bLifebs Mistressb, and bShining Mountainb , remind me of early Joni Mitchell on her JM/Song To A Seagull, Clouds, or Ladies Of The Canyon albums. Ibd guess itbs long out-of-print but, if you can find it, Ibd highly recommend this collection to anyone seeking intelligent, easy-listening music from a singer-songwriter with something to say. Kenny B - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:15:54 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: a secret post njc Mark Scott wrote: > Gerald A. Notaro wrote: >> Mark Scott wrote: >>> Gerald A. Notaro wrote: >>> He didn't stay in that bigoted Southern town, though, did he? >>> Living an 'out' life among the New York glitterati is hardly the >>> same thing, is it? >> >> No, that is exactly why he left. > > And my point is that not everybody has the option of escape. Some people > are not equipped to leave the environment they find themselves in and some > just plain don't want to. Why should they have to? So that they don't end up lonely, miserable, and having lived a lie as Ennis did. > I do see your point here. Thanks. It is the one I have been getting at from the beginning. It's a no-brainer that a movie that features > the > likes of Jake Gyllenhall in and out of cowboy drag is going to have a lot > more appeal on a purely sensual level than a movie that focuses on pudgy > Philip Seymour Hoffman in bald pate and thick-rimmed classes talking in an > effeminate, lispy voice. Most people don't go to the movies to be > intellectually stimulated. They go to be entertained and pretty people > usually draw more than unpretty people at the box office. Whether this is > a > good or a bad thing, it is unfortunate that films like 'Capote' and > 'Transamerica' tend to be banished to the arthouse circuit and too many > people miss out on experiences that just might enrich their lives and > change > their point of view. > > *However*, to dismiss 'Brokeback Mountain' as a beefcake movie is to do it > a > horrible disservice and to grossly underestimate it. I'm not. My comments have always been about MY reaction to the movie, not whether is was good ot not. But I am saying that it has a lot to do with the attention it is getting. Hey guys. Finally. A love story about us and they are hunky and macho and masculine, not some lispy queen. Sorry, but I think we were baited and we bit. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:18:11 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: RE: njc, (people's) park central Smart choice, Sherelle. The last time I flew to NY it cost me only $59, but then $60 to get into the city from the airport! Have fun, all. Jerry Sherelle Smith wrote: > Dear Patti, > > "All the people at this party, they've got a lot of style...." > > I plan on pulling into Penn Station around 11:15 or 11:30, I forgot which > time! I'll be dragging my luggage around with me but since I can only stay > one day, I wanted to make the best of it! I'll be a little lost puppy so > I'm going to try to get to the Park Central lickety split and stay as put > as > possible! > > Sherelle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:40:42 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: Best "Old" Album of 2005 (sjc) now NJC Hi Kenny I adore that album. Are you familiar with his "Sun Wheel Dance" album? More of the same jewel-like stuff as High Winds. Dee-lish! Smear it all over me! :) Em - --- PassScribe@aol.com wrote: > I thought you folks might be interested in a review I just wrote for > my > Writers' Journal: > > Ken Finds A Classic From 1971 > > Bruce Cockburn - High Winds White Sky > During the course of 2005, I was constantly hearing music from > various > artists that I liked and wanted to check out further. Sometimes, I > visit the > East Meadow Public Library and borrow CDbs from their vast inventory > that I > may like enough to buy or make copies of. A recent album by Bruce > Cockburn > (pronounced Co-burn) had some good tunes on it but I wasnbt > impressed enough > to add > it to my collection without hearing more; I checked with the library > and > found they didnbt have it. > While I was browsing through the many titles at the library, > however, I > came across an early album by Cockburn entitled, High Winds White > Sky, so I > brought that home to listen to. Ironically, I loved this collection > of > sensitive > and finely crafted tunes that are somewhat simpler than his newer > material, > and I was glad I found it. There are ten original songs in all and I > think > every one is a keeper. > The vocals and acoustic guitar on the first tune, bHappy Good > Morning > Bluesb, reminded me of Paul McCartneybs upbeat style from his Red > Rose > Speedway > days. bLet Us Go Laughingb is a slower, more deliberate ballad, and > therebs > a great, lilting piano riff throughout bGolden Serpent Bluesb > butbironicallyb > no one is credited in the liner notes as playing piano on this album. > Fine > acoustic guitar work, neat chord changes and thoughtfully poetic > lyrics in the > title cut, bHigh Winds White Skyb, bLifebs Mistressb, and > bShining > Mountainb > , remind me of early Joni Mitchell on her JM/Song To A Seagull, > Clouds, or > Ladies Of The Canyon albums. > Ibd guess itbs long out-of-print but, if you can find it, Ibd > highly > recommend this collection to anyone seeking intelligent, > easy-listening music > from a singer-songwriter with something to say. > > Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:39:45 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Truman and the Bareback Mountain guys - njc From Michael Musto9s column in the Village Voice. Highly amusing :) Before the ceremony, I was so happy to meet Capote director Bennett Miller so I could be the company asshole and ask, "Who's sexier, Truman Capote or the Bareback Mountain guys?" After mock strangling me and saying, "Bareback?" he replied, "Well, Truman certainly knew how to seduce better than those guys did. He was interested in straight guys. When he put his mind on somebody, it's seldom he didn't get that person. Sometimes some young beefcake would approach him and basically offer himself, and Truman shunned him. He wasn't into simple pretty faces. He was into substance." Rather than ingest some, I hit PHILIP SEYMOUR HOFFMAN up with the same kooky query. "I haven't seen Bareback Mountain," he answered, sincerely. "It's actually Brokeback," I admitted. "I keep slipping. Well, on purpose." "Do you really keep saying that to get the people to say it?" he wanted to know. "Um, yes," I confessed. "But anyway, was Truman sexier than the Memoirs of a Geisha crew?" "I have no idea," Hoffman said, looking horrified. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:10:58 -0500 From: Blair Fraipont Subject: Re: a secret post NJC Your post reminded me of the turmoil most gay actors have when they are out of the closet or have been forced out. Once they are out can they be taken seriously as playing straight characters? I know there are examples of gay actors who can play either way and perform wonderfully. But, one can't help admit that they are pigeon-holed once they are out. It is great though that these big name stars are willing to portray homosexuals. Yet, aren't there enough homosexual/transexual undiscovered stars just waiting in the wings ready to be discovered that could have done the job and thusly received the exposure they deserve? Blair NP: (In honor of Bareback Mountain) Truck Driver Divorce----Frank Zappa On 1/19/06, mike pritchard wrote: > > 'Brokeback Mountain' opens tomorrow in Barcelona, I haven't seen the title > yet > (all my students will ask me what it means, same as with 'Blowing for > Columbine') but in all likelihood it will retain the original title and > add a > subtitle which (may) help the Spanish audience to get an idea of what the > film > is about. I imagine the same situation (Hi Patty ;-)) will occur with > 'Capote', of which I have seen nothing yet to suggest it will open here > soon. > Obviously I cannot comment yet on either film but I will say that I > usually > like Hoffman's acting very much. So there. > Remember when white actors (Laurence Olivier, for example) used to be > criticised for 'blacking up' for Othello, and other roles but especially > that > one, given that Black actors, Paul Robeson for example, and more recently > Lawrence Fishbourne, are and were totally capable of playing that role to > perfection? Has there been any suggestion (on Vince's lists, for example) > that > the roles of the two protagonists of Brokeback Mountain could have / > should > have been played by homosexuals? Are we now at a time where this question > is > indeed a stupid question and where (many, but I guess not all) 'straight' > actors are prepared to play gay roles, or at least roles which are less > 'virile', or 'manly' (whatever that means)? My point? Are there still any > actors who are afraid to play gay roles, as it would harm their box office > appeal, or have the bad old days finally disappeared? > mike in barcelona > np Asian Dub Foundation: Enemy Of The Enemy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:15:15 EST From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Living Brokeback Mountain vljc I spent my childhood growing up in the Midwest knowing at age 5 that I had a great passion for men. However dating in school seemed the norm in surpressing my inner desires. I married a girl whom I told at age 16 that I thought I was gay. Living in fear in a redneck school I was quite popular among the jocks because I was the chief photographer for the school and that meant their picture ended up in the news paper. Had they known I'd be dead for sure. My marriage lasted 4 years living with a continual ache of longing to be with a man. My lover before David was a crane operator on a construction job where I worked in Houston. He was a great combination of redneck Texan, Archie Bunker/Michael Angelo mentality. He would say you love me don't you, to which I would say yes and his reply was I don't love you that way I can't, A very Ennis approach. Three of my closest friends were violently murdered by straight men acting to be gay. Only one of the murdered friends killer ever was prosecuted due to a police department who chose to look the other way. So I know the pain and agony felt by both Jack and Ennis. It is a fear most straight people never have to deal with. Brokeback Mountain was by far a more compelling movie to me then any movie about a selfserving,self indulgent little prick like Truman Capoyte. A move that wins an Oscar should have an impact that leaves you rehashing scenes over and over when you leave the theater. One that gets your gut weeks after seeing it. I know these characters and still see this all of the time living in this hate filled Christian community where I live. Driven home by preachers and lawmakers pushing this bigoted agenda. By far Brokeback hits home for me and is by far the best pick. You know hanging out with Joni and her friends in Saskatoon I learned from her that she chooses to hang mostly with gay men because of their sensitivity and their quest to always have fun. I guess they share some similar "Shame& Blame" she always felt. That's my rant for the day. Peace Mingus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:26:52 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: a secret post NJC Blair added >>It is great though that these big name stars are willing to portray homosexuals. Yet, aren't there enough homosexual/transexual undiscovered stars just waiting in the wings ready to be discovered that could have done the job and thusly received the exposure they deserve? << Well Blair, that's exactly what I was thinking and the basis for my question. I would not like to (be in a position to) insist that straight actors play only straight roles and gay actors only gay roles, but there is this nagging Othello thing in my mind. I don't know if Othello was played by any of the great black actors of the past, except Robeson and Fishbourne, but I am sure some black actors, and maybe others, found it strange/degrading/racist to be denied the role of a black man and to see that role played by a white man. There again, why shouldn't all actors (male and female) be able to play all roles? We've seen women playing Hamlet, indeed Shakespeare is rife with cross-gender acting, and so although I feel that everyone should play anything they want (if they are capable), we should, IMHO, encourage the discriminated minorities to make themselves heard, whether it be black actors, gay actors, female musicians in some prestigious orchestras, all of whom have not had a fair crack of the whip. mike in barcelona ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:08:14 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: RE: COUNTDOWN Hi Laura, I told husband Rob how you are counting down and it really made him smile. He thought he was the only one who did this!!!! Laura wrote: 14 DAYS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 06:30:23 -0800 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: a secret post njc Gerald A. Notaro wrote: >> And my point is that not everybody has the option of escape. Some >> people are not equipped to leave the environment they find >> themselves in and some just plain don't want to. Why should they >> have to? > > So that they don't end up lonely, miserable, and having lived a lie as > Ennis did. Apparently you misunderstood me. What I was trying to say is that people should be able to live an 'out' life wherever they want and not be ostracized for it. But I was also trying to say that Ennis would have been miserable in other ways if he had tried to live in NYC. And as far as that goes, there have been many times when I have felt very lonely in the midst of a whole bar full of gay men. Hey guys. Finally. A love story > about us and they are hunky and macho and masculine, not some lispy > queen. Sorry, but I think we were baited and we bit. Well the movie was an adaptation of a short story about two cowboys in Wyoming. I guess you can fault Annie Proulx if you like. To be fair to her, though, her physical descriptions of the two men don't exactly jive with what the two actors in the movie look like. I suppose they could have chosen less attractive guys for the parts. But I don't think lispy queens would have fit the bill. Lispy queens would have elicited charges of stereotyping, anyway, so I guess you can't please everybody. Would people have liked 'Dr. Zhivago' so much if it had not starred people who looked like Omar Shariff and Julie Christie? I don't know if this was meant to be a 'love story about us' or about repression or what. We all take away something a bit different from it, just like with Joni or any other work of art. Maybe you're right and I will think about this some more. But I'm still haunted by this film. Maybe I was manipulated. But doesn't any movie that makes some kind of point manipulate us to a certain degree? Enough. I could go on forever speculating about this but I won't. Thanks for all the discussion. Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:58:14 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: a secret post njc I don't know about "finally" as there have been other movies before, I have a shelf fulkl at home, just none that have been been this good and receiving some acclaim that may be due to the fine quality of the Annie Proulx source. And some of starred lispy queens. I resent the concept that a love story between men has to be lispy queens to be accurate. Far, far, far more men I know resemble Heath and Jake than any lispy queen. In fact, I don't know any gay lispy queens. Maybe if Wally Cox and Don Knotts had played the roles you'd feel better? There is nothing in the movie that yells out "stud" for Heath or for Jake. Did you notice at all Jake's Jack getting a stomach as the movie progressed? Heath and Jake portrayed two guys who wore a lot of flannel, jeans, and cowboy hats, they did not play hunk stud muffins. I can walk 500 feet from my office and find a bar full of men in a downtown urban bar wearing flannel,jeans, and a cowboy hat, and they are all straight. What Brokeback is saying is that it could be any two guys, any two "normal" regular males who find their self in love with another man as a bolt of the blue. Placing the story in Wyoming underlines that even more. You want a love story with lispy queens, you have Torch Song Trilogy and the Bird Cage. Sorry Jerry, I totally disagree with you in your "we were baited comment." Finally, a love about us and it is not lispy queens but people like us. Thank God. Vince - -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Gerald A. Notaro" >Hey guys. Finally. A love story about us and > they are hunky and macho and masculine, not some lispy queen. Sorry, but I > think we were baited and we bit. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:21:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: a secret post njc vince wrote: > I don't know about "finally" as there have been other movies before, I > have a shelf fulkl at home, just none that have been been this good and > receiving some acclaim that may be due to the fine quality of the Annie > Proulx source. And some of starred lispy queens. > > I resent the concept that a love story between men has to be lispy queens > to be accurate. Far, far, far more men I know resemble Heath and Jake > than any lispy queen. In fact, I don't know any gay lispy queens. Maybe > if Wally Cox and Don Knotts had played the roles you'd feel better? There > is nothing in the movie that yells out "stud" for Heath or for Jake. Did > you notice at all Jake's Jack getting a stomach as the movie progressed? > Heath and Jake portrayed two guys who wore a lot of flannel, jeans, and > cowboy hats, they did not play hunk stud muffins. I can walk 500 feet > from my office and find a bar full of men in a downtown urban bar wearing > flannel,jeans, and a cowboy hat, and they are all straight. What > Brokeback is saying is that it could be any two guys, any two "normal" > regular males who find their self in love with another man as a bolt of > the blue. Placing the story in Wyoming underlines that even more. > > You want a love story with lispy queens, you have Torch Song Trilogy and > the Bird Cage. Sorry Jerry, I totally disagree with you in your "we were > baited comment." > > Finally, a love about us and it is not lispy queens but people like us. > Thank God. US? When was the last time you were a cowboy in Wyoming?????????? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:24:14 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: a secret post njc try this with me maybe editing it - sorry - the pressure of being at work - embarrassing to see my poor typing skills - -------------- Original message -------------- From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) > I don't know about "finally" as there have been other movies before, I have a > shelf full at home, just none that have been been this good and receiving some > acclaim that may be due to the fine quality of the Annie Proulx source. And > some of them starred lispy queens. > > I resent the concept that a love story between men has to be lispy queens to be > accurate. Far, far, far more men I know resemble Heath and Jake than any lispy > queen. In fact, I don't know any gay lispy queens. Maybe if Wally Cox and Don > Knotts had played the roles you'd feel better? There is nothing in the movie > that yells out "stud" for Heath or for Jake. Did you notice at all Jake's Jack > getting a stomach as the movie progressed? Heath and Jake portrayed two guys > who wore a lot of flannel, jeans, and cowboy hats, they did not play hunk stud > muffins. I can walk 500 feet from my office and find a bar full of men in a > downtown urban bar wearing flannel, jeans, and a cowboy hat, and they are all > straight. What Brokeback is saying is that it could be any two guys, any two > "normal" regular males who find their self in love with another man as a bolt out of > the blue. Placing the story in Wyoming underlines that even more. > > You want a love story with lispy queens, you have Torch Song Trilogy and the > Bird Cage. Sorry Jerry, I totally disagree with you in your "we were baited" > comment." > > Finally, a love about us and it is not lispy queens but people like us. Thank > God. > > Vince > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Gerald A. Notaro" > > >Hey guys. Finally. A love story about us and > > they are hunky and macho and masculine, not some lispy queen. Sorry, but I > > think we were baited and we bit. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:39:02 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: a secret post njc Come on Jerry, I was using your line about "people like us" and what you referred to. I have never knoiwn you to take a shot like this before. I have never been a gay lisping queen on Broadway and yet found connection with Torch Song Trilogy. Maybe us midwestern hicks are capable of analogy a lot more than the lispy queens and their devotees. For the record: first time I rode horse in Wyoming, maybe 5 or 6, and been back at a number of times, my cousins Moses and Estelle Paumer had a ranch there and my cousin Pamela had the Wyoming Grand Champion Steer one year, I helped brush it as few weeks before the show. Last time I was there was 1983. Spent time at Fort Laramie. Has been too long. But that is not the point, and you know it. Don't cheap shot me on using the word "us" the same way that you did - unless you were referring to gay lispy queens only. Having grown up in Chicago, having lived in rural western Michigan and now urban rural western Michigan for the last 30 years, and based on the number of off list emails I have gotten where people have shared some very moving stories, us includes a lot of Jack and Ennis types. Not all of us are Nathan Lane wannabees, not that there is anything wrong with that and wouldn't it be cute if Natahn Lane and Matthew Broderick made a gay movie together, since the gay lane has (Birdcage) and straight Broderick kissed as a non lispy queen how many men in Torch Song Trilogy, I lost count. And he got murdered, just like in Brokeback, for being gay. Stop drawing the lines between who us is and we all do better. Vince - -------------- Original message -------------- > > Vince posted: > > Finally, a love about us and it is not lispy queens but people like us. > > Thank God. > From: "Gerald A. Notaro" > US? When was the last time you were a cowboy in Wyoming?????????? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:44:03 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: a secret post njc vince wrote: Stop drawing > the lines between who us is and we all do better. Funny coming from someone who in the very same post writes: Maybe us midwestern hicks are capable of analogy a lot more than the lispy queens and their devotees. And that, will be my last word on it to the list on the matter. All of you who say you support diverse opinion should be amused...... Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:37:03 +0000 From: atel79@dsl.pipex.com Subject: Brokeback Mountain njc (contains possible spoiler) Well, I just thought it was a terrific film. It's the first I've seen since Amelia was born, so I was minded to enjoy it regardless, but it exceeded my expectations - and these were high, given that the source material was from one of my favourite authors and the director one of the best working today, nearly all of whose films I have enjoyed (can we draw a veil over Godzilla, which I didn't bother with?!) Obviously, it would be as disingenuous to say it was simply a love story that happened to involve two men as it would be reductive to say that it's *only* a 'gay cowboy movie.' It was peopled by flesh and blood characters, not ciphers; it was not only the two leads who gave great performances, but the women in their lives too, especially Michelle Williams. And the film was stunning to look at, from the outdoor shots to the unforgettable final frame. Like some of the previous posters, I struggled with Heath Ledger's diction at times, missing a fair bit of what he said. But hey, life's like that, we often miss what people say. One point of intrigue, and maybe I'm being a bit simplistic: Ennis's last words are "Jack, I swear..." How do people imagine that sentence might have continued? The most obvious way would be the "I love you" that neither managed in the film, though I'm sure there are other suggestions. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:03:21 -0500 From: Blair Fraipont Subject: Re: a secret post njc I think it is a shame that most of the public is unaware of the plethora of great movies that happen to have gay central themes or characters and that maybe this movie can prove to others that there is more worth in this subject and characters than from what they first thought. I think to have a film that showcases stereotypical effeminte gay men and then one such as Brokeback Moutain where the characters are closer to the common man are equally important and enjoyable. When you look at the gay community from a far it really is more interesting than just a lispy queen; it is this ever expanding amalgm of experiences, people and places. Yea, I don't really agree that we were baited either. Blair NP: Lonesome Cowboy Burt--Frank Zappa On 1/19/06, vince wrote: > > I don't know about "finally" as there have been other movies before, I > have a shelf fulkl at home, just none that have been been this good and > receiving some acclaim that may be due to the fine quality of the Annie > Proulx source. And some of starred lispy queens. > > I resent the concept that a love story between men has to be lispy queens > to be accurate. Far, far, far more men I know resemble Heath and Jake than > any lispy queen. In fact, I don't know any gay lispy queens. Maybe if > Wally Cox and Don Knotts had played the roles you'd feel better? There is > nothing in the movie that yells out "stud" for Heath or for Jake. Did you > notice at all Jake's Jack getting a stomach as the movie progressed? Heath > and Jake portrayed two guys who wore a lot of flannel, jeans, and cowboy > hats, they did not play hunk stud muffins. I can walk 500 feet from my > office and find a bar full of men in a downtown urban bar wearing > flannel,jeans, and a cowboy hat, and they are all straight. What Brokeback > is saying is that it could be any two guys, any two "normal" regular males > who find their self in love with another man as a bolt of the blue. Placing > the story in Wyoming underlines that even more. > > You want a love story with lispy queens, you have Torch Song Trilogy and > the Bird Cage. Sorry Jerry, I totally disagree with you in your "we were > baited comment." > > Finally, a love about us and it is not lispy queens but people like > us. Thank God. > > Vince > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Gerald A. Notaro" > > >Hey guys. Finally. A love story about us and > > they are hunky and macho and masculine, not some lispy queen. Sorry, but > I > > think we were baited and we bit. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:19:40 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: Brokeback Mountain njc (contains possible spoiler) Azeem, the story is what informs me more on that and somewhere I posted it early on in all the calvary charge of posts: I see it as: Jack, I swear if I had known you would of ended up dead and I'd lose you forever I would have lived with you and never let you go. That is what to me is implied in the Proulx story in that scene, the penulitmate page of the sory I guess depending on your edition. In the movie (as in the story), Ennis is looking at their shirts and the postcard of Brokeback which was "all we got" - the reference is to their prior discussions about Ennis and Jack living together on top of Ennis seeing Jack's parents and realizing that Jack had spoken of that all his life, sand it ties in the line in the first reunion after four years, I never should have let you ot of my sight. Maybe the 4th of July fight scene in the movie (not in the story) is meant to add that Ennis was devatstated that he was not there to protect Jack and he would have taken on anyone for the ones he loves, and that makes their not living together, and Ennis' not being there for Jack, all the more painful. But it is clear to me, my opinion, that it is Jack I swear if I had known, I never would have let out of my sight, my life is empty without you and if I had listened to you from the beginning, our lives would have had so much more joy. They never needed to say I love you, that was understood. Vince - -------------- Original message -------------- > One point of intrigue, and maybe I'm being a bit simplistic: Ennis's last words > are "Jack, I swear..." How do people imagine that sentence might have > continued? The most obvious way would be the "I love you" that neither managed > in the film, though I'm sure there are other suggestions. > > Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:40:11 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: a secret post NJC > 'Brokeback Mountain' opens tomorrow in Barcelona, I haven't seen the title > yet > (all my students will ask me what it means, same as with 'Blowing for > Columbine') ...I'm not sure how old your students are, but.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:43:59 -0700 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: Virus alert Joniphiles - It's come to my attention that spam with a virus attached is being generated from the address les@jmdl.com. If you receive this please know that this isn't coming from me! That address has been dead for about two years now as it was taken over long ago by spammers. Here is all the info on the virus it is spreading and a tool with which to remove it: http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.blackmal.e@mm.ht ml My apologies for any problems this may have caused you. Les ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:26:12 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: njc Wyoming Cowboy In light of the question from my good buddy Jerry - a friend of long standing who is important to me - about when I was last a Wyoming cowboy, I called my father to see if he can find some pictures of me (these would be 1957-1962 era) on horseback in Wyoming, preferably with cattle in the same shot. He has those all packed away and thought my request was looney but he mentioned he also has home movies of me on the ranch, also packed away, and he still thinks I am looney. He did remember that I insisted on a new cowboy hat every summer and also insisted on cowboy shirts with simple striping across the chest and hated, refused to wear, the cowboy shirts with fringes. I guess I was never into queeny stuff. My chaps and vest are long gone and as are my boots from my cowboy period (I guess I was into leather). In my closet (neat alluision) right now are my current set of cowboy boots in case I get the urge to ride the range again. Dad said I was never very good with the gun, which I kind of recall too. However, that is where I first developed my rifle skills. Alhough I never shot at a living thing, I remain a very good shot. It would be fun if we could all post action shots of our years gone by - yip pi ki yo ki yah, ride 'em, Bronocs. Cowboy Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:05:22 +0000 From: Gordon G Mackie Subject: We are stardut, we are golden reggie (the royal we) Hi All At my Philosphical Inquiry group last night ( I know, I know...but actually it's lots of fun), the leader decided to turn the tables on me. Instead of me slipping in a Joni reference or two, she used the words of 'Twisted' as the opening reading. Good chat all round about madness, normality, eccentricity, artists, genius, etc. I did complain that she should have chosen something written by Joni but it was still an interesting discussion. Oh..btw, jsut to clear things up, I am Sparticus....I mean...I am Golden Reggie. Just thought I should clear it up once and for all. Any reference to Reg Dwight..aka Elton thingy (Mrs David Furniture) is just madness. ...and another thing....oops ,my analyst told me... Peas be with you Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:57:38 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: wilson pickett has died njc Just heard on NPR always loved him Vince - -- http://www.southsiders.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:52:03 -0800 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: We are stardut, we are golden reggie (the royal we) Oops, forgot the NJC!! Sorry!! TVC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:51:42 -0800 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: We are stardut, we are golden reggie (the royal we) > Peas be with you All we are saying ... is give peas a chance. Sincerely, The Vegetable Council ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:28:15 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: wilson pickett has died njc me too Vince...loved Mustang Sally...so sad, way too young:~( RIP Wilson Rosie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:39:41 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Muller Subject: Joni Painting on ebay Got extra Christmas money lying around? Hit the lottery? Got a rich friend? If so, you can bid on this 1978 Joni oil painting: http://cgi.ebay.com/Artist-Joni-Mitchell-1978-Painting-on-Canvas-Board_W0QQitemZ7383863769QQcategoryZ20135QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Bob NP: John Mellencamp, "Your Life Is Now" - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:09:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Kay Ashley" Subject: trying to catch fecking Hell (NJC) Desperately Seeking Hell! Hallo Hell, Could you please contact me off-list at kay@kayashley.com? I have a question for you about the artwork you did for JoniFest a few years back... :-) Kay ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2006 #20 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------