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JMDL Digest        Saturday, November 5 2005        Volume 2005 : Number 415



==========

TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
  Hidden Agenda NJC                    ["mike pritchard" <ink08@hotmail.com>]
  Toronto Star article on Kate Bush with a tiny Joni mention  [Catherine McK]
  'Now Playing'               [Chuck Eisenhardt <c.eisenhardt@earthlink.net>]
  Re: Hidden Agenda NJC             [Brian Gross <briangross@rocketmail.com>]
  Honesty, njc                                           [LCStanley7@aol.com]
  Re: Fw: Hidden Agenda NJC                     [mags h <magsie_h@yahoo.com>]
  For free                            ["Kate Bennett" <kate@katebennett.com>]
  Re: Fw: Hidden Agenda NJC encore une fois     [mags h <magsie_h@yahoo.com>]
  Re: Banquet - a drug song???        ["Kate Bennett" <kate@katebennett.com>]
  Re: 'Now Playing'                      ["Mark Scott" <mark.travis@gte.net>]
  Re: Honesty, njc                       ["Mark Scott" <mark.travis@gte.net>]
  Re: Toronto Star article on Kate Bush now njc  ["Mark Scott" <mark.travis@]
  njc, another round for these creeps and these poor soldiers  ["Patti Parle]
  Re: Fw: Hidden Agenda NJC encore une fois  [Catherine McKay <anima_rising@]
  Re: Fw: Hidden Agenda NJC encore une fois          [Em <emzdogz@yahoo.com>]
  Re: Honesty, njc                         [Bob Muller <scjoniguy@yahoo.com>]
  a Joni mention, and some segues  ["Patti Parlette" <loveuconn@hotmail.com>]
  RE: Honesty, njc                                 ["hell" <hell@ihug.co.nz>]
  Re: Honesty, njc                                       [LCStanley7@aol.com]
  Re: Honesty, njc                       ["Mark Scott" <mark.travis@gte.net>]
  Re: Honesty, njc                       ["Mark Scott" <mark.travis@gte.net>]
  Re: Fw: Hidden Agenda NJC encore une fois now Dylan's juvenile works  [Cat]
  Re: a Joni mention, and some segues      [Bob Muller <scjoniguy@yahoo.com>]
  Re: a Joni mention, and some segues        [Smurf <smurfadelica@yahoo.com>]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:31:02 +0100
From: "mike pritchard" <ink08@hotmail.com>
Subject: Hidden Agenda NJC

I haven't responded to Brian Gross's recent mail about guns, partly because I
no longer live in the UK but more because I suspect he is not looking for a
real debate, as he himself admits. For what it's worth, both my father and one
of my brothers were hunting and fishing types, although only and always for
food; rabbits, pheasant, duck, salmon, bass etc. I only once used my father's
12 bore shotgun, simultaneously killing a pigeon and ending my hunting days in
a violent flash. I sometimes used my brother's 4/10 for beer can practice
shooting, but nothing more beyond that. My position on guns in the UK overlaps
Lucy's seamlessly, although she expresses it more eloquently than I could have
done. Well done, Lucy.
Neither have I responded to Brian's next question, specifically addressed to
Laurent, about Arab immigrants rioting in France, for similar reasons, namely
because it seems obvious to me that Brian is again not looking for debate, he
is merely stirring things up. It is well known (to many on the list) that
Laurent and I have very different opinions on some matters, principally the
Israel -Palestine situation and I did not want to get into that again. Laurent
and I managed to avoid this subject in France Fest without any problems and we
both enjoyed the music and company as a result.
I have seen Laurent's response to Brian's question and it is exactly the
response I would expect, given what I know of his position in general, and I
have absolutely no problem with this. He is entitled to hold opinions that are
not in line with mine, obviously. Laurent explained his thoughts, as Azeem did
in a more balanced manner earlier. Laurent ends his mail by quoting the words
of an Israeli woman who said: "don't be fooled, the arabs won't be satisfied
with just all of Israel. They already have France and Belgium and the next
step is the
U.S." Laurent said "That's my opinion too and I'm sorry if it hurts some
people's feelings and makes me look like a right wing extremist. Brian, just
don't get me started next time if you don't want to hear this." Laurent,
sincerely, my argument here is not with you, but with Brian.
Brian, what are you playing at here? Why are you asking these questions? You
ask 'loaded' questions about gun ownership when you admit you are not looking
for debate, then you specifically ask a fellow Jew whose views on Arabs are
well-known on this list for his views on rioting Arab immigrants, and who says
'don't get me started if you don't want to hear this'. What are you trying to
start? What is it you want to hear Brian? What are you up to? Why are you
starting these fake 'debates'? What is your next question going to be, and to
whom? What's your problem?
mike in barcelona
np Tom Waits - Muller Mix (thanks Bob)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 08:39:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Catherine McKay <anima_rising@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Toronto Star article on Kate Bush with a tiny Joni mention

This article is from today's Toronto Star.

_____________________________________________________

Lost and found
After a 12-year absence, British rock enigma Kate Bush
returns to the fertile musical landscape she helped
create

GREG QUILL
ENTERTAINMENT COLUMNIST

In the weird cast of eccentric, renegade geniuses
credited with having influenced the course of late
20th-century pop music, Kate Bush is perhaps weirder,
more eccentric, more of a renegade and more
influential than most.

Not that she cares.

"I've never been aware of inspiring others," she says
over the phone from her home in Reading, England, on
the eve of the release this Tuesday of Aerial, her
first album in 12 years.

"That was never my intention. You do the best you can
... that's all I care about."

A child prodigy who burst into public view in 1978,
Bush churned out seven extemporaneous, genre-defying
albums in the following 15 years.

She also released a string of groundbreaking videos,
undertook one strange and fantastic tour before
retreating, apparently forever, to her home studio,
and in 1993, disappeared completely, leaving a legion
of mythically devoted fans puzzled and gasping for
more.

Bush might have remained one of the curiosities of the
1980s Britpop explosion had it not been for a steady
stream in subsequent years of performers who clearly
owe much to her vision and style. Hip-hop star Antwan
"Big Boi" Patton of OutKast has called Bush his "No. 1
musical influence next to Bob Marley." And if that's
hard to believe, try listening to Bjvrk, Sarah
McLachlan, Dido, Fiona Apple or Tori Amos without
conjuring Kate Bush.

Her passion, frankness and musical daring with
electronic and symphonic structures has its roots in
1970s British prog rock, but Bush, who's now 47, is
one of those rare and preternaturally gifted artists
whose work stands outside time, impervious to musical
trends and changes in social, economic and political
patterns.

In fact, the time away from the music biz whirl has
passed so quickly for her that she barely feels it,
she says.

"I've been having a good time. I've been raising my
son (Bertie, aged 7), and living a quiet life,
shopping, cleaning my house, going to movies with
friends. And I've been recording, taking my time. Once
I start recording, I have to make it as good as I can.
This album didn't start out to be as big as it is, but
by the time it was finished, I'd been at it for almost
five years. I have a reputation for being
overambitious."

Cheerful and talkative  except when it comes to
details of her personal life  Bush sounds genuinely
at a loss to explain her reputation in the media as a
wacky recluse.

"Reclusive, mysterious and weird  it's ridiculous,
isn't it? Just because I've chosen to live a normal
life, and not in the public eye. I've never promoted
myself, I'm not a celebrity, I'm a worker, and I don't
see a reason to do interviews unless there's something
to talk about, a piece of work.

"I don't hide from people. I go shopping, I go to
restaurants and movies ... yet somehow I'm made out to
be some mad hermit. It's too much.

"I think my cult following got grumpy waiting so
long," she laughs.

That all sounds a bit disingenuous in light of the
number of high-end European art and fashion
photographers whose ubiquitous images of Bush created
at least the impression of a showbiz diva between 1978
and 1990, when an eight-CD anthology appeared in the
box set This Woman's Work  complete with a colour
booklet containing nothing but these extravagant
portraits.

`Reclusive, mysterious and weird ... Just because I've
chosen to live a normal life.'

In lieu of personal appearances  erroneous reports of
stage fright that have apparently prevented her from
touring after 1979 are another bone of contention with
her  fans have had nothing to fuel their addiction
other than Bush's wild, rich and allusive music, and
magnificent, stylized graphics.

"I never consciously gave up touring," she explains.
"I only did just one, in 1979 and 1980, and I think
other people gave up on me. I remember it as a
fantastic experience, like being on the road with a
circus. We're working on some ideas about doing some
shows to promote this album, but it's early days."

And she says she has no regrets about the image she
helped create, though Aerial comes unadorned with
large and ornate likenesses of her, and instead
features realistic images of the ornaments of an
ordinary village life  washing on the line, a view
from the kitchen window, a placid seashore, pigeons in
the yard.

"Graphics are important," she adds, by way of
explaining the effort that went into designing the
honeyed landscape artwork for Aerial. "This may sound
pompous, but I'm uncomfortable working with the CD
format. I used to work in vinyl, when the artwork was
big, and said something significant about an artist.

"And I loved double albums. They indicated that the
music was conceptual, too important to be reduced, and
you could open up the covers and get lost in the
pictures and information inside.

"I liked it when an album was 20 minutes of music a
side, with a breathing space in the middle. I think
CDs are too long for people with short attention
spans, people who are distracted by all the
technological tools we have these days."

The Aerial format, she explains, is a respectful nod
to the great days of vinyl. The package contains two
discs, both around 40 minutes in length, the first a
collection of single songs, the second a conceptual
piece that unfolds as a musical panorama encompassing
the span of a single day, with vast dreams and
powerful reminiscences inspired by simple sounds of
nature, the words of passers-by and routine chores.

The album lacks the frenetic pace and bluster of her
last conceptual effort, 1985's Hounds Of Love, and
achieves an almost elegiac, English pastoral grace.
Several songs feature just vocals and piano, and
expose matters closer to her heart than the turgid
melodramas of her earlier work: the joy childhood
brings in "Bertie," memories of her late mother in the
eerie but strangely comforting waterscape "A Coral
Room," the bucolic "Sky Of Honey" with its compelling
echoes of Vaughan Williams. Orchestral charts were
written by award-winning composer Michael Kamen, who
died of a heart attack at age 55 in 2003. They were
recorded just weeks before his death.

"He was a lovely person, very talented and brave,"
Bush recalls. "I'd worked with him on other albums,
and he was never offended if I suggested changes 
he'd rewrite arrangements on the spot, even with the
orchestra waiting in the studio. I admire his work for
its visual qualities."

While it's debatable, as acolytes claim, that Kate
Bush's impact on Western music and female artists in
particular is as profound as Joni Mitchell's, it can't
be denied that Bush has attracted more than a fair
share of serious attention from new artists in the
years since her so-called self-exile began. This
includes R&B singer Maxwell, whose reworking of Bush's
childbearing chronicle "This Woman's Work" was a hit
in 2001, as well as male-dominated British rock acts
Placebo and The Futureheads, who scored a hit last
year with a version of her "Hounds of Love."

Her beginnings were more than auspicious. Bush was
"discovered" at age 16 by Pink Floyd guitarist David
Gilmour. He who paid for an orchestra to back her
distinctive, hyperbolic soprano on demos of several
elaborately theatrical, sexually loaded romantic
fantasies that would become the core, three years
later, of her hair-raising debut, The Kick Inside.

Though she had nothing in common with the post-punk,
new wave acts with whom she shared the high end of the
charts  she was genteel, well educated, and possessed
of aesthetic and artistic sensibilities that had less
to do with rock than with the progressive side of
opera, world music, jazz, musical theatre and epic
cinema  she became the darling of British prog-rock.
Peter Gabriel gave her a nod by recording the moving
duet, "Don't Give Up" with her in 1986. Procol Harum
member Gary Brooker's organ and vocal contributions
anchor Aerial, an exotic two-CD set.

Some pieces on Aerial will remind fans of the daring
Kate Bush of old: "Pi" is little more than a series of
numbers sung with dramatic extremes of emotion; "King
Of The Mountain," the first single, is a contemplation
on celebrity and its cost, with direct references to
Elvis; in "Mrs. Bartolozzi," a washing machine becomes
a sexual allegory in the romantic fantasies of a
cleaning woman.

"After seven years with Bertie, I know a lot about
washing machines," Bush chuckles. "He keeps me normal.
I never wanted to be famous. I just want to create
nice music, and I believe celebrity threatens
creativity.

"What's important to me is to have a soul  and my
lovely little boy."

Catherine 
Toronto
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 
 

 










	

	
		
__________________________________________________________ 
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:41:47 -0500
From: Chuck Eisenhardt <c.eisenhardt@earthlink.net>
Subject: 'Now Playing'

I was thinking about a range of possibly usual variants of 'Now playing'
for use in signing off a post.

Actually, since I sometimes wonder REALLY if such and such a song
WERE truly playing in the moment (and not just ended a while back), I 
think
employment of various related acronyms might even improve truth
in messaging....Lord, knows I've fibbed a little here....so.....

NP: 'now playing'
NPIMH 'now playing in my head' (seen this one actually used)
JFPAWA: the above-mentioned 'just finished playing a while ago'
PY: 'played yesterday'
PSR: 'played sometime recently'
IOIWNPIMH: 'if only it were NOT playing in my head, as in 'IOIWNPIMH 
'American Pie'
POPS: 'plan on playing soon'
NPITUA: 'now playing in the upstairs apartment'
BICOHTB: 'but I can only hear the bass'

well, you get the idea. there may be more.

NPIMH: I Will Not Be Broken, Bonnie Raitt

Chuck

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 07:20:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Gross <briangross@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Hidden Agenda NJC

- --- mike pritchard <ink08@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I haven't responded to Brian Gross's recent mail about guns, partly because I
> no longer live in the UK but more because I suspect he is not looking for a
> real debate, as he himself admits.

That's correct Mike. I'm not looking for a debate here. I was soliciting
individual responses (preferably offlist due to the overwhelmingly anti-gun
position of many jmdlers) from UK jmdlers witb respect to a link I posted on
the subject of the loss of the right of self-defense from criminals in the UK.

> For what it's worth, both my father and one
> of my brothers were hunting and fishing types, although only and always for
> food; rabbits, pheasant, duck, salmon, bass etc. I only once used my father's
> 12 bore shotgun, simultaneously killing a pigeon and ending my hunting days
> in
> a violent flash. I sometimes used my brother's 4/10 for beer can practice
> shooting, but nothing more beyond that. My position on guns in the UK
> overlaps
> Lucy's seamlessly, although she expresses it more eloquently than I could
> have
> done. Well done, Lucy.

Thank you for expressing your opinions. That is precisely what I was after.

> Neither have I responded to Brian's next question, specifically addressed to
> Laurent, about Arab immigrants rioting in France, for similar reasons, namely
> because it seems obvious to me that Brian is again not looking for debate, he
> is merely stirring things up. It is well known (to many on the list) that
> Laurent and I have very different opinions on some matters, principally the
> Israel -Palestine situation and I did not want to get into that again.
> Laurent
> and I managed to avoid this subject in France Fest without any problems and
> we
> both enjoyed the music and company as a result.
> I have seen Laurent's response to Brian's question and it is exactly the
> response I would expect, given what I know of his position in general, and I
> have absolutely no problem with this. He is entitled to hold opinions that
> are
> not in line with mine, obviously. Laurent explained his thoughts, as Azeem
> did
> in a more balanced manner earlier. Laurent ends his mail by quoting the words
> of an Israeli woman who said: "don't be fooled, the arabs won't be satisfied
> with just all of Israel. They already have France and Belgium and the next
> step is the
> U.S." Laurent said "That's my opinion too and I'm sorry if it hurts some
> people's feelings and makes me look like a right wing extremist. Brian, just
> don't get me started next time if you don't want to hear this." Laurent,
> sincerely, my argument here is not with you, but with Brian.
> Brian, what are you playing at here? Why are you asking these questions? You
> ask 'loaded' questions about gun ownership when you admit you are not looking
> for debate, then you specifically ask a fellow Jew whose views on Arabs are
> well-known on this list for his views on rioting Arab immigrants, and who
> says
> 'don't get me started if you don't want to hear this'. What are you trying to
> start? What is it you want to hear Brian? What are you up to? Why are you
> starting these fake 'debates'? What is your next question going to be, and to
> whom? What's your problem?
> mike in barcelona

The urban rioting situation in Paris (and now spread to other parts of France)
has been largely glossed over by the news media here in the US. Coverage by the
BBC World Service has been somewhat more extensive. Laurent is the only
Parisian whith whom I've ever had any contact, so it seemed logical to ask him
for his local 'take' on the goings-on.

Again, I'm not looking to start any debates, real or fake. I'm not looking to
'start' anything. There is no hidden agenda. If you don't like the questions I
ask, you are free to block my address from your email, as your Canadian
correspondent already has. That is your choice, Mike. 

I don't know what my next question is going to be. Does anyone? And as to
*your* final question, it is so out of line I won't even dignify it with a
response.

Have a good weekend everyone,
Brian in south jersey usa





I've looked at love from both sides now
From give and take, and still somehow
It's love's illusions I recall
I really don't know love at all

  --Joan, with the wisdom of the ages


	
		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:07:13 EST
From: LCStanley7@aol.com
Subject: Honesty, njc

Marianne wrote:
 
I want another decade ful of honesty. .
how about an  eternity full. . .
 
 
 Hi Marianne,
 
    The political leadership back in the  60's - 70's were not perfect in the 
realm of honesty.  But, yes there was a  movement of people back then who 
were pushing for honesty by their  example and voice.  Today we bear the fruits 
of that effort and  do need to keep the gentle revolution going.  The color of  
honesty is acceptance and tolerance of others in my opinion, and we have that 
in  ways we didn't in the 60's and 70's.  
 
    I see the fruits with the  increasing number of women doctors today.  In 
the 60's and 70's, there  were only a few women in the med school classes.  In 
the 80's, I remember I  was the only woman in a room full of men in our 
department.  Today,  the number of men and women is closer to equal.  We have a 
woman  chair person and lots of women faculty.  Last year was the first year  the 
med school class had more women than men students in the history of the  
school.  
 
    A few days ago I was talking to a  couple of med students about this.  
One student loves the heart and  would like to be a cardiologist but didn't 
think she could do that  specialty because of her desire to have children which 
she thought wouldn't  be possible with the long hours as a cardiologist.  That 
kind of thinking  is prejudice based, something that has been dissolving as 
more variety  occurs in the population of doctors and as less rigid thinking 
happens regarding  which hours a doctor should work.  The other student said being 
 a white male like himself is less favorable than it is to be a woman in med  
school... a rebound prejudice effect resulting from overcoming a  prejudice.  
It will eventually balance out so all are treated  equally.   
 
    The times they were a changin'   toward more honesty, and change is still 
happening with good results.   Slowly but surely.  Truth prevails.  May all  
your wishes come true.
 
Love,
Laura

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:31:15 -0800 (PST)
From: mags h <magsie_h@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Hidden Agenda NJC

well welll well...it's high time that someone did an expose on the Jack behind the Joker.
well done Mister Mike.
 
your Canadian Correspondent.... ROFL. 

npmih: gee I wonder WHY i blocked his email?????????????/


let us go then you and i
~t.s.eliot~
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:36:58 -0800
From: "Kate Bennett" <kate@katebennett.com>
Subject: For free

>From the Economist style guide:
"Free is an adjective or an adverb, so you cannot have or do anything for
free. Either you have it free or you have it for nothing."
What would Joni say?
mike in barcelona
NP Solaris - Photek<

Artistic license allows you to use words anyway you please including the
making up of words :~} 
Npimh jahmobethere

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:41:20 -0800 (PST)
From: mags h <magsie_h@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Hidden Agenda NJC encore une fois

Encore une fois,  i feel it is important to express this clearly.  what I meant to say is that it's high time someone stepped up to the plate to challenge this behaviour. It's not okay, nor is Complicit silence. 
 
the canadian correspondent, who wears it well.
 


 


let us go then you and i
~t.s.eliot~
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:42:21 -0800
From: "Kate Bennett" <kate@katebennett.com>
Subject: Re: Banquet - a drug song???

WATCHING kids grow?! Not exactly how I'd describe raising kids but then
again joni is on the outside looking in for this one... 

>"Some turn to Jesus
Some turn to Heroin
Some turn to rambling round
Looking for a clean sky and drinking stream.
Some watch the paint peel off
Some watch the kids grow
Some watch their stocks and bonds
Waiting for that big deal American Dream."

What I love about these lines is that Joni really nails human choices in a 
nutshell kinda way:

Religion
Drugs
Nature
Family
Simplicity
Goals

Mia<

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 10:07:51 -0800
From: "Mark Scott" <mark.travis@gte.net>
Subject: Re: 'Now Playing'

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Eisenhardt" <c.eisenhardt@earthlink.net>
> POPS: 'plan on playing soon'
> NPITUA: 'now playing in the upstairs apartment'
> BICOHTB: 'but I can only hear the bass'
> 
> well, you get the idea. there may be more.
> 
> NPIMH: I Will Not Be Broken, Bonnie Raitt
> 
> Chuck


With me it's usually:

IBPTIMC- I've been playing this in my car

Mark E.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 10:21:28 -0800
From: "Mark Scott" <mark.travis@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Honesty, njc

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <LCStanley7@aol.com>
The color of
> honesty is acceptance and tolerance of others in my opinion, and we have 
> that
> in  ways we didn't in the 60's and 70's.
>

Acceptance is a nice concept.  I don't have a problem with that word.

But as I get older I find I have more and more of a problem with the word 
'tolerance'.  To me 'tolerance' implies that there is something negative 
that has to be tolerated.  Like cracking one's knuckles or BO.  A person's 
religious beliefs, race or sexuality are not bad habits or something that 
smells or in some way causes physical discomfort.  Why is tolerance called 
for?  What is there to tolerate?

Just a pet peeve.  Not meant as any kind of negative comment about Laura or 
anybody else.

Mark E. in Seattle 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 10:39:54 -0800
From: "Mark Scott" <mark.travis@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Toronto Star article on Kate Bush now njc

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Catherine McKay" <anima_rising@yahoo.ca>

> This article is from today's Toronto Star.
>

Thanks for posting this, Catherine.  I have been playing 'Hounds of Love' 
continously in my car for a few days now.  It is sinking in and I am finding 
a lot of things I like about it.  I picked up 'The Kick Inside' yesterday 
and last weekend managed to get 'The Sensual World' for a good price.  I 
think I am becoming a convert and will probably end up buying 'Aerial'. 
This article has really piqued my interest.

Mark E. in Seattle 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 19:12:35 +0000
From: "Patti Parlette" <loveuconn@hotmail.com>
Subject: njc, another round for these creeps and these poor soldiers

Dear Joniamigos:

Reading the news and it sure pisses me off today!!!  If I'm feeling 
contempt, I'm gonna tell it!

From the Washington Post:  "The Pentagon just launched a $10 million 
marketing campaign aimed at encouraging parents to be more open to allowing 
their children to enlist."

I'm going to roar like forest fire!  Out of the fire like Catholic saints
Comes Parlette and her deep complaint:

How DARE they abuse MY tax dollars to convince ME to allow MY SONS to join 
THEIR war machine!!!!!  This administration never ceases to outrage me, but 
this one is beyond the beyond.

The money alone makes me nuts (could anyone in your community use TEN 
MILLION DOLLARS, Brother Paz?), but their purpose here is just so....I don't 
know the word.  I really don't know.  There is no word to express my 
outrage.  (Julius, Smurf, Catherine -- ye word meisters of marvelous 
succinctness -- can you find one word?)

Mamas and papas, don't let your children grow up to be soldiers.  Love is a 
story told:  recently one of our student workers came in to see me, in 
tears.  She was freaked out.  She told me that one of her best friends from 
high school just returned from Iraq.  They were sitting around drinking beer 
one night, just chillin',  when all of a sudden Jason jumped up and ran 
across the street.  He threw off all his clothes and jumped in the lake, 
screaming:  "I am a finely honed KILLLING MACHINE!  I am a professionally 
trained f@#$ing KILLING MACHINE!"  He ranted and raved until the police 
came.

He got out of Iraq alive, but what is he now?  He got wasted on the way, 
staying the course for this evil, immoral, disgusting, corrupt "and you know 
there may be more adjectives" inhuman administration.

How do you stop?  How do we stop them?

Parents, please keep these evil-doer warmongers away from your children by 
going to leavemychildalone.org.  Opt your kids out of the Pentagon's 
database.

And here is another great place for blue Americans to express themselves -- 
go to Harry's house:

http://www.giveemhellharry.com/page/s/Iraq

Give 'em hell, Harry, and aim the hoses on 'em!  Show them we won't expire!

Love,

Patti P., pretty pissed off, yet helplessly hoping

NPIMH:

Still I sent up my prayer
Wondering who was there to hear
I said Send me some President
Who's strong and somewhat sincere
With the millions of the lost and lonely ones
We called out to be released
Caught in our struggle for higher achievements
And our search for peace
That don't seem to cease

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:18:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Catherine McKay <anima_rising@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Fw: Hidden Agenda NJC encore une fois

- --- mags h <magsie_h@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Encore une fois,  i feel it is important to express
> this clearly.  what I meant to say is that it's high
> time someone stepped up to the plate to challenge
> this behaviour. It's not okay, nor is Complicit
> silence. 
>  
> the canadian correspondent, who wears it well.
>  

I told Mike privately that I agreed with what he said
but that he said it much more succinctly than I might
have done. I wondered if responding to Brian's
provocation might be just giving him what he wanted
and didn't want to rise to the bait. And yet, I can
understand how you might think that staying silent
somehow condones the behaviour, so I'm gonna speak up.

It seems that every so often, some people feel the
need to stir up the shit. Maybe it's because they're
bitter, maybe it's because they're bored, or maybe
it's because they just don't get it.

Hmm. I'm feeling bitter and just a little bored today.
Let's see.... Oh, I know! Let's bring up the guns
thing and see who bites. Oh, how about the Arabs vs
Jews thing (NPIMH - Michael Franks singing, "Every
night we fuss and fight like Arabs and like Jews")"

That's how it strikes me, but some people like to play
all innocent about it. (What, lil ol' me? try to start
something? Nothing could be farther from the truth - I
just wanted to have a little private conversation,
with 800 or so people...)

Another Canadian correspondent (where they actually
have been covering the Paris riots in the news.)


Catherine 
Toronto
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 
 

 










	

	
		
__________________________________________________________ 
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:34:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Em <emzdogz@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Hidden Agenda NJC encore une fois

I try to remember this, from writer James Baldwin:

"Incontestably, alas, most people are not, in action, worth very much;
and yet, every human being is an unprecedented miracle. One tries to
treat them as the miracles they are, while trying to protect oneself
against the disasters they've become."

and I try to remember this from my man Bob D. - what he wrote about
"distances" between people:

"You'll never know the hurt I suffered nor the pain I rise above,
 And I'll never know the same about you, your holiness or your kind of
love,
 And it makes me feel so sorry."

...and, I don't know people's reasons, but, based on my own actions, I
think sometimes posting something online, about a topic that tortures
your soul, is the equivalent of shouting into the void....only instead
of just echoes, you occaisionally get some really fine dialog going on.
And then sometimes a total bloody train wreck occurs.
Its a risk.
Its like fishing: sometimes you pull out a lovely fresh grouper,
sometimes you pull out a dead horse's head teeming with eels and
sometimes you pull out something so toxic and vile you swear you will
never dip your pole in THAT water again.

Just wishing everyone peace.

Em



 


- --- Catherine McKay <anima_rising@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> --- mags h <magsie_h@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > Encore une fois,  i feel it is important to express
> > this clearly.  what I meant to say is that it's high
> > time someone stepped up to the plate to challenge
> > this behaviour. It's not okay, nor is Complicit
> > silence. 
> >  
> > the canadian correspondent, who wears it well.
> >  
> 
> I told Mike privately that I agreed with what he said
> but that he said it much more succinctly than I might
> have done. I wondered if responding to Brian's
> provocation might be just giving him what he wanted
> and didn't want to rise to the bait. And yet, I can
> understand how you might think that staying silent
> somehow condones the behaviour, so I'm gonna speak up.
> 
> It seems that every so often, some people feel the
> need to stir up the shit. Maybe it's because they're
> bitter, maybe it's because they're bored, or maybe
> it's because they just don't get it.
> 
> Hmm. I'm feeling bitter and just a little bored today.
> Let's see.... Oh, I know! Let's bring up the guns
> thing and see who bites. Oh, how about the Arabs vs
> Jews thing (NPIMH - Michael Franks singing, "Every
> night we fuss and fight like Arabs and like Jews")"
> 
> That's how it strikes me, but some people like to play
> all innocent about it. (What, lil ol' me? try to start
> something? Nothing could be farther from the truth - I
> just wanted to have a little private conversation,
> with 800 or so people...)
> 
> Another Canadian correspondent (where they actually
> have been covering the Paris riots in the news.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:55:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Bob Muller <scjoniguy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Honesty, njc

I agree with you, Mark - there is a component of "tolerance" that makes it, well, unacceptable
in this context. Just for the heck of it, I looked up the two words on dictionary.com, and this
is what it says:
 
Acceptance:

   The act or process of accepting.
   The state of being accepted or acceptable.
   Favorable reception; approval.
   Belief in something; agreement.

Tolerance: 

   To allow without prohibiting or opposing; permit.
   To recognize and respect (the rights, beliefs, or practices of others).
   To put up with; endure.

Even though #1 and #2 for tolerance sound OK, there's almost an implied superiority there. And #3 is right in line with your thoughts; tolerance is "putting up" with something or someone,

which is not a healthy attitude at all.

 

Which is not to say that "tolerance" is a bad word - we all have things that we have to put up

with (rude cell phone usage, the high price of fuel, Dubya, etc). But if we're talking about groups of people I agree that acceptance is the better choice.

 

Bob

 

NP: Joe Jackson, "Cancer"



		
- ---------------------------------
 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 20:57:10 +0000
From: "Patti Parlette" <loveuconn@hotmail.com>
Subject: a Joni mention, and some segues

My friend Judy, who is a great environmentalist (she works for the DEP) and 
is always teaching me good new things, sent me an article from an 
environmental magazine.

Here's the Joni part:

"There are other social and economic arguments about the virtues and vices 
of chain stores, of course, all of them beyond the scope of this column. But 
at base, I think, a large factor in our objections to these stores -- 
particularly in the environmental argument against them -- is aesthetic. And 
there's no denying that looks matter; our love of nature's beauty is a big 
reason we care about the environment, after all. Squatting dumbly behind 
their vast aprons of blacktop, America's suburban chain stores are as ugly 
as they are banal, together comprising a built environment that exemplifies 
Joni Mitchell's song about paving paradise for a parking lot. And she didn't 
even have a verse about runoff."

(Entire article is at:  
http://www.grist.org/comments/soapbox/2005/11/03/akst/index.html  )

Yay!  Don't you just love to see her name in print?

I think "paved paradise" may be her most famous, oft-quoted 
chicken-scratching.  Do you agree?

Which reminds me....last year it was comin' on Christmas and I was 
travelling in my son's vehicle.  Chris and Michael were listening to some 
sports radio show (w/ Chris Berman, I think) when all of a sudden Mama lets 
out a big Joni whoop.  "Oh my God, he just mentioned Joni Mitchell!"   My 
boys exchanged glances and start shaking their heads ("Uh oh....there she 
goes again!"l) as I continued:  "Joni MItchell wrote that!  Joni Mitchell 
wrote "they paved paradise and put up a parking lot" and even your sports 
guys know that.  See how great she is?  Even Chris Berman quotes Joni!"

My sons tease me all the time about my JMOCD.  I have so many stories to 
share, but here's just one quick one.  Michael (21) had a tonsillectomy AND 
deviated septum surgery last June.  Both at once...ouch!  Well, he took a 
while to come out of the anesthesia, and I was getting a little worried.  (I 
worry sometimes.).  FINALLY, the doctor said he was awake and we could go 
see him.  He looked awful...all bandaged and swollen and red eyed, with 
parched lips.  Well, I can't conceal emotion -- what I'm feeling is always 
written on my face -- and he must have seen the concern.  So my sweet boy 
used some heart and humor to comfort his mom.

He said, in a horribly raspy hurting voice:  "Mom.  I meant to ask you a 
favor."

Me, totally open and at his disposal:  "What, honey?"

Michael:  "I meant to ask you to bring me some Joni Mitchell CDs."

Me, coming on as bright as a neon light:  "Really???  You want some Joni 
CDs?"  (thinking: "He's *finally* getting it!  The anesthesia is bringing 
out his deepest feelings"!)

Michael rasps:  "Yeah, I need them for a frisbee tournament."

Argh!  I thought I had him!  But the sweet part, of course, was seeing him, 
despite HIS pain, trying to erase the worry from my face.  And he succeeded.

Just thought I'd share!

Love,

Patti P.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:03:01 +1300
From: "hell" <hell@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Honesty, njc

Mark wrote:

> But as I get older I find I have more and more of a problem with the
> word 'tolerance'.  To me 'tolerance' implies that there is something
> negative that has to be tolerated.  Like cracking one's knuckles or BO.
> A person's religious beliefs, race or sexuality are not bad habits or
> something that smells or in some way causes physical discomfort.  Why
> is tolerance called for?  What is there to tolerate?

I agree entirely.  I don't like the word tolerance, especially when it's
used in reference to sexuality.  I don't want to be "tolerated" - which to
me implies I'm doing something wrong - I want to be "accepted".

Amy Ray says it really well in her song Laramie, about Matthew Shepherd:

Poor man do the bidding for the rich man
Those rednecks are just doing
what the classy f--kers' thinking.
And tolerance it ain't acceptance;
I know you wanted it to be,
when you're out in Laramie.


Hell
___________________________________
"To have great poets, there must be
great audiences too." - Walt Whitman

Hell's Pages - a WHOLE NEW EXPERIENCE!
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 16:23:56 EST
From: LCStanley7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Honesty, njc

Mark wrote:

To me  'tolerance' implies that there is something negative that has to be  
tolerated. 


Hi Mark,
 
    In my understanding, with acceptance,  a person claims whatever it is as 
their own.  With tolerance, they respect  whatever it is but don't claim it as 
their own.  Like with beliefs, one can  tolerate another's beliefs which 
would mean respect them without sharing  them.  With acceptance of each other's 
beliefs, both people believe the  same thing.
 
    I understand where you are coming from  though.  Society does tend to use 
the word tolerance  negatively.
 
Love,
Laura

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 13:28:58 -0800
From: "Mark Scott" <mark.travis@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Honesty, njc

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Muller" <scjoniguy@yahoo.com>


Just for the heck of it, I looked up the two words on dictionary.com, and 
this
> is what it says:

Thanks for posting these definitions, Bob.
>
> Tolerance:
>
>   To allow without prohibiting or opposing; permit.
>   To recognize and respect (the rights, beliefs, or practices of others).
>   To put up with; endure.
>
> Even though #1 and #2 for tolerance sound OK, there's almost an implied 
> superiority there. And #3 is right in line with your thoughts; tolerance 
> is "putting up" with something or someone,
>
> which is not a healthy attitude at all.
>

I can live with #2 although there is still an implied superiority there as 
you say.  The first definitely carries a connotation of oppressive authority 
allowing something that is considered to be inferior in some way.  #3 is the 
one that sticks in my head whenever I hear the word and is very offensive to 
me in the context we're talking about here.

Mark E. 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 13:32:01 -0800
From: "Mark Scott" <mark.travis@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Honesty, njc

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "hell" <hell@ihug.co.nz>

> Amy Ray says it really well in her song Laramie, about Matthew Shepherd:
>
> Poor man do the bidding for the rich man
> Those rednecks are just doing
> what the classy f--kers' thinking.
> And tolerance it ain't acceptance;
> I know you wanted it to be,
> when you're out in Laramie.

Or as Dylan put it, 'They're only a pawn in the game'.

Thanks for the lyric and for the response, Hell.  I'm glad I'm not the only 
one who doesn't have much tolerance for the word tolerance.  ;-)

Mark E. 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 16:55:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Catherine McKay <anima_rising@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Fw: Hidden Agenda NJC encore une fois now Dylan's juvenile works

- --- Em <emzdogz@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I try to remember this, from writer James Baldwin:
> 
> "Incontestably, alas, most people are not, in
> action, worth very much;
> and yet, every human being is an unprecedented
> miracle. One tries to
> treat them as the miracles they are, while trying to
> protect oneself
> against the disasters they've become."
> 
> and I try to remember this from my man Bob D. - what
> he wrote about
> "distances" between people:
> 
> "You'll never know the hurt I suffered nor the pain
> I rise above,
>  And I'll never know the same about you, your
> holiness or your kind of
> love,
>  And it makes me feel so sorry."
> 
> ...and, I don't know people's reasons, but, based on
> my own actions, I
> think sometimes posting something online, about a
> topic that tortures
> your soul, is the equivalent of shouting into the
> void....only instead
> of just echoes, you occaisionally get some really
> fine dialog going on.
> And then sometimes a total bloody train wreck
> occurs.

I will try to be a kinder person. Tomorrow.

Here's another Toronto Star article for you, Ms Em,
about Bobby D's not-so-great early poetry. We all
start somewhere, don't we?

- -----------------------------------------------------

Portrait of an artist as an 'idiot child'
Dylan's teen poetry crude, banal, misspelled
So count on it to fetch $60,000 at auction this month

PETER HOWELL
ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER

I have to quit smoking / But I can't quit smoking
I love to smoke / Almost as much / As I love to love
Bob Dylan, poet in training, 1960.

Great poetry, it isn't. Nor is it much good as a
motivational message, since the man who scribbled
these words is still puffing away, 45 years later.

But these and other raw and earthy verses, recently
discovered, offer fascinating glimpses into the
artistic formation of a scrawny and shy young
University of Minnesota student named Robert
Zimmerman, age 19, whom the world would soon come to
know as the rock legend Bob Dylan.

Decades later, people are about to see him in a new
light, perhaps to smile at the thought that the
distance between fool and genius isn't so far, after
all.

A tattered notebook used by Dylan during his freshman
year at the university, 1959-60, titled "Poems Without
Titles" and containing 16 pages of surrealistic stabs
at poetic profundity, are being offered for sale Nov.
21 in New York by the auction house Christie's.

They're expected to fetch between $60,000 and $80,000
(U.S.), in a year when the artist's career and legacy
are being scrutinized more closely than ever, through
new books and the Martin Scorsese documentary No
Direction Home: Bob Dylan.

Billed as the earliest Dylan manuscript ever to be
offered at auction, and unknown to fans until very
recently, the poetry book is the highlight of a
collection of rock and pop memorabilia that will also
see Jimi Hendrix's Monterey Pop medallion, guitars
once used by Eric Clapton, and scrawled song lyrics by
the Doors' Jim Morrison go under the gavel.

A Christie's spokesman said the poems were offered for
sale by a private collector, but declined to
elaborate. No one from Dylan's management could be
reached for comment.

Sprinkled with scatological references, lamenting
failed romances and referring to himself as "idiot
child," Poems Without Titles reveals Dylan at his most
banal and most crude, words not generally used to
describe the artist who penned such 20th-century pop
song landmarks as "Like a Rolling Stone," "Desolation
Row" and "Subterranean Homesick Blues."

Sometimes he's both banal and crude at the same time,
as seen in this ode to his motorcycle:

The motorcycle swerves
The motorcycle drags
The motorcycle doesn't
Give a damn
Who gets his nuts
Stomped on ...

It is hard to believe that this is the same writer
who, less than a year after scrawling these lines and
dropping out of school, will be winning raves as a
folk singer in New York City, hailed for the clarity
of his vision and the honesty of his expression. The
same songwriter and poet who, by the mid-1960s, will
be treated as a latter-day saint and revolutionary
prophet by rock fans and who will be influencing such
fellow musical heroes as John Lennon and Paul Simon.

But Poems Without Titles also reveals a young and
questioning mind, beginning the soul-searching that
will soon lead Dylan to write some of the most admired
and socially significant songs of the 20th century.
The poems are undated, but Dylan wrote them in the
spring of 1960, around the time of his 19th birthday
on May 24 of that year. The timing can be verified by
how he signed them, either as "Dylan" or the
intriguing "Dylanism," a name assumed to have been
taken in tribute to the poet Dylan Thomas.

When he arrived at the University of Minnesota in the
fall of 1959, he was still plain Robert Zimmerman from
the mining town of Hibbing, Minn., the son of a father
who ran an appliance store. His Jewish faith was still
important to him  he joined the Jewish fraternity
Sigma Alpha Mu, and his writings employed the Hebrew
greetings "Shalom Aleichem" and "Good Shabbos," both
of which he managed to misspell.

By the spring of 1960, Dylan had left his frat house
and was living off-campus, atop a drug store in a
bohemian neighbourhood called Dinkytown, where he was
a regular performer at a small nightclub called the
Ten O'Clock Scholar, a favourite haunt of folk singers
and beat poets. The latter group, who favoured surreal
verse, vulgar humour and provocative thinking, seem to
have had the most profound influence on Dylan at age
19. In his autobiography Chronicles: Vol. 1, published
last year, he acknowledged that beat author Jack
Kerouac's novel On the Road was "like a bible to me"
before he moved to New York City in early 1961, and
began to dabble in longer-form poetry after reading
epic works like Coleridge's Kubla Khan and Lord
Byron's Don Juan.

Ian Lancashire, a professor of English at the
University of Toronto who specializes in poetry,
examined a few samples of Poems Without Titles for The
Toronto Star.

Lancashire said that, unlike other undergrads of the
1950s who felt they had to deal with serious issues,
Dylan wasn't afraid to write about everyday things.
"Each poem obsesses over one or two words: smoking and
love, motorcycle, coffee, answers, and pissing. He
likes the music of these words, although he avoids
rhyming as if it were an embarrassment. I can see a
future folk-song-writer in these word-obsessed poems,"
he said in an email interview.

- --------------------------------------------

"Perhaps what we should do is give each person a gun,
and when we see a migrating bird, we can just shoot it
down, so Hong Kong would be a much safer place." 

 --Tommy Cheung, Hong Kong legislator, on how to deal
with avian flu.


Catherine 
Toronto
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 
 

 










	

	
		
__________________________________________________________ 
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:23:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Bob Muller <scjoniguy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: a Joni mention, and some segues

<I think "paved paradise" may be her most famous, oft-quoted 
chicken-scratching.  Do you agree?>
 
Without a doubt - between "paved paradise, put up a parking lot" and "you don't know what you got 'til it's gone", there's typically 3-4 articles every week that quote it.
Les was keeping track of them for awhile:
http://www.jmdl.com/yellow/
But I think he must have thrown in the towel because the most recent one shows to be from May of this year. (And I ain't knocking Les, to be sure - he's the hardest working man in cyberspace as far as I can tell.)
 
Also, I'm sure that Smurf was delighted to see Google's newest search engine, Google Print, that searches entire texts of books. It's been a little controversial, but for now it's a good tool to find lots of new "Joni in Fiction" entries. 
http://print.google.com/
(2,270 returns when searching for "Joni Mitchell", of course most of them are non-fiction.)
 
Bob
 
NP: The Postal Service, "Nothing Better"
 

		
- ---------------------------------
 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:35:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Smurf <smurfadelica@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: a Joni mention, and some segues

- --- Bob wrote:
 
> Also, I'm sure that Smurf was delighted to see
> Google's newest search engine, Google Print, that
> searches entire texts of books. It's been a little
> controversial, but for now it's a good tool to find
> lots of new "Joni in Fiction" entries. 
> http://print.google.com/
> (2,270 returns when searching for "Joni Mitchell",
> of course most of them are non-fiction.)


Thanks so much, Bob. I was looking for somehing to do
with the rest of my life.

- --Smurf




	
		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
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------------------------------

End of JMDL Digest V2005 #415
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