From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2005 #330 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, August 30 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 330 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- thank God I'm an atheist (njc) [frednow@aol.com] Re: "I never died," said he -- njc ["ron" ] Re: thank God I'm an atheist (njc) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Jonifest Pictures (NJC) [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: "I never died," said he -- njc [Em ] Re: New Orleans, LA njc ["Sherelle Smith" ] Bob Dylan's "No Direction Home": the details, njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama] Re: off the map, and job-related stress, or life's stress in general, njc ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Joni and Younger Musicians (SJC?) ["Azeem" ] Performing Songwriter magazine asks young artists to name their inspiration [Patti Witten ] Re: I love the VMAs njc [Em ] Re: I love the VMAs njc [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: "I never died," said he -- njc ["ron" ] Re: I love the VMAs njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: "I never died," said he -- njc [Jerry Notaro ] An essay by E. L Doctorow, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] its not the music, its you (and me) njc [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] New Orleans Update [michael@thepazgroup.com] Re: Happy Birthday JMDL! [Bob Muller ] njc Oh my God! vmas do suck! [vince ] Re: New Orleans Update njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: its not the music, its you (and me) njc [Randy Remote wrote: I had the, "What is UP with everyone thanking God?" discussion with a fellow cynic at work ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:23:45 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: "I never died," said he -- njc hi a touching review of joan's performance at camp casey http://198.65.14.85/News/2005/31-40/34news01.htm quote: " When Ms. Baez returned to her private area behind the trailer, she sat down at a table, dropped her head into her folded arms, and wept. " ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:05:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: thank God I'm an atheist (njc) - --- frednow@aol.com wrote: > Nietzsche said it best: "I cannot believe in a God > who wants to be > praised all the time." > > Amen. > If, as they say, people were made in god's image, then it might explain why so many of us have self-esteem issues. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:57:17 EDT From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Re:Happy Birthday JMDL Happy Birthday JMDL and thanks for your enormous effort and dedication Les! It looks like the Joni drawing "Daydreamer" was her first self portrait of her riding out to the prairie to have a smoke, she looks grounded (flat on her back). Happy to be here Mingus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:48:41 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: "I never died," said he -- njc She has been one of my heroes for 40 years. Her feeling are genuine and it made me proud to see her standing and singing next to Cindy last weekend. Jerry > hi > > a touching review of joan's performance at camp casey > > http://198.65.14.85/News/2005/31-40/34news01.htm > > > quote: > > " When Ms. Baez returned to her private area behind the trailer, she sat > down at a table, dropped her head into her folded arms, and wept. " > > > > ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:53:50 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Jonifest Pictures (NJC) In a message dated 8/29/2005 9:44:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, RoseMJoy writes: Happy belated Birthday wishes. Can you or someone post the link to Chris's picture site. I'm on a machine at work and I no longer have it. Here ya go, Rosie, and anyone else who wants it: _http://www.hatstand.org/gallery/v/JoniMitchell/jonifest2005/_ (http://www.hatstand.org/gallery/v/JoniMitchell/jonifest2005/) Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:00:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: "I never died," said he -- njc plus she's so damn good-looking! Look forward to hearing some from her new album "Bowery Songs". Folkmusic lives! Em - --- Jerry Notaro wrote: > She has been one of my heroes for 40 years. Her feeling are genuine > and it > made me proud to see her standing and singing next to Cindy last > weekend. > > Jerry > > > hi > > > > a touching review of joan's performance at camp casey > > > > http://198.65.14.85/News/2005/31-40/34news01.htm > > > > > > quote: > > > > " When Ms. Baez returned to her private area behind the trailer, > she sat > > down at a table, dropped her head into her folded arms, and wept. " > > > > > > > > ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:03:28 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: New Orleans, LA njc Hi Lori, I spent 16 years in the Northern Panhandle portion of the Ohio Valley. Apparently, there are two "Ohio Valley's" (according to the Weather Channel anyway!). One is the border of Ohio/West Virginia, the other is the border of Ohio/Kentucky. They call one the Ohio Valley and the other the Ohio "River" Valley. Maybe I was the latter!!!!! Sherelle P.S. Count me in for helping you on your marathon!!!! Lori wrote: >Did you know that the pollution from the Ohio Valley >is apparently responsible for the crappy air here in >Toronto? Boo! Hiss! Who needs clean air? Boo! Hiss! Who needs Ohio? ; ) Lori, who grew up there ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:44:15 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" Subject: Bob Dylan's "No Direction Home": the details, njc - -------- Aug 30 (today): Bootleg Vol. 7 is released on 2 CDs Sep 20: Scorsese's 2-DVD documenary is available for purchase Sep 26 & 27: PBS broadcast - -------- The New York Times reports today: >... When taken for an acoustic-guitar troubadour who was supposed to cling to old, virtuous rural sounds, he plugged in his guitar, hired a band and sneered oracular electric blues. That's the story told in two overlapping projects: the two-CD set "No Direction Home: The Soundtrack - The Bootleg Series Vol. 7" (Columbia/Legacy), to be released today, and "No Direction Home," a documentary directed by Martin Scorsese that will be released as two DVD's on Sept. 20 and broadcast on the PBS series "American Masters" on Sept. 26 and 27. (Despite the soundtrack designation on the CD's, versions of some songs differ between album and film.)> News as it happens... Jim Covington, KY, US BTW, anyone who enjoyed "Chronicles, Vol. 1" read about Dylan taking meals in the kitchens of the folk dives in NYC in the early days. Here's a photo of just that: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/arts/music/30dyla.html?th&emc=th It's my understanding that anyone can use the link today. (After NY Times' links become yesterday's news, the rules change.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:47:48 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: off the map, and job-related stress, or life's stress in general, njc Catherine> And school is starting next week. Matthew starts high school this year and is very stressed and obsessed about it and that's not making things any easier.< Raising teens & the stress that they feel at school... I remember those times, looking back I wish I could have reacted better to all the stress (my job, my son's school, never enough money, etc) because we all somehow survived... I think it is so great you took the kids to france this summer! Some of my sweetest memories are time off with my son... now he is grown & it is not so easy to spend time, especially a vacation, with him > Life seems far too complicated and I wonder how much of it is our simply not allowing ourselves not to take things too seriously.< Some situations make it difficult to take that zen approach although it is always a good perspective for me to remember... I found that stress was taking its toll on my mental & emotional & maybe even physical health so I had to make some major changes this year... a move to a smaller town, then a change of jobs to one less bureaucratic & closer to home... it was a stressful year of making those changes but boy am I happy I did! It is harder to make these changes while you are still raising kids, but certainly not impossible... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:26:27 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Joni and Younger Musicians (SJC?) (I'm going backwards on catching up with digests!!! So sorry!) I agree with you too Kate! I think the calling to start a label is not something every musician has. I like mentoring artists but I don't know if I would ever have the mental energy to actually promote and sign other artists. I have my own label and publishing company but I'm pretty selfish about it. It's strictly a means to put my own CD and music out, that's all. It's pretty much in name only at this point too. There's a lot of responsibility to ensure the success of the person you would be signing. I would really take that to heart and feel very responsible for them. I think you are right about Dave Matthews really liking this aspect of the business. Plus, he is a better financial position to find the capital necessary to properly promote Patti Griffin. There are a lot of pros and cons to artists starting labels for other artists. I don't think Joni would touch that one with a ten foot pole!!! Sherelle Kate wrote: Sherelle> The main thing I try to impart is that no one is going to "give" you anything. It is not required. You must create your own buzz and forge your own destiny. To give the artist a sense of self-sufficiency is the best thing I could ever do for someone. More than fiscal success, I prefer to see "emotional success" where someone stands and says with pride, "I am a musician" or "I am a singer/songwriter".< I agree. I think when someone asks us for help the best thing we can do is share our experience. We can't do any more. I don't think Joni ever enjoyed the biz part of music (as an artist, who does?). So the last thing she's going to do is start a music label. Dave Matthews started a label which picked up Patty Griffin (yay dave!) he must like that part of the music biz or he wouldn't have done it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:46:21 -0400 From: rosemjoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Birthday JMDL! Les, You're the BEST. What a wonderful gift and tribute to our Joan. I'm sure she would love to read it Les. You should send her a copy. Much love, Rosie - -----Original Message----- From: Les Irvin To: joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:06:11 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday JMDL! Joniphiles - First, many thanks to Mother Nature for sparing New Orleans from the worst of the storm. Let's have a clean-up party, Paz! Secondly, Happy 9th Birthday to the JMDL tommorrow! August 30, 1996 saw the JMDL's very first post. In celebration - and quite co-incidentally - I'm pleased to announce the first in what i hope to be a series of exclusive JMDL interviews. The first interviewee is John Uren, the man who started the Depression Coffeehouse in Calgary in September of 1963 and gave a young lady named Joni Anderson her first regularly-paying gig. John talks a lot about the Depression days and gives some interesting insight into the early Joni. Plus, you get to see an early drawing of Joni's from 1964. Many thanks to John, a true gentleman who over the past few months has endured my many edits and changes to the text. Read the interview here: http://www.jmdl.com/library/view.cfm?id=1336 Enjoy! Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:53:37 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" Subject: Happy Birthday JMDL Les, Wow, thanks for writing that interview. I really enjoyed it and found it well-written. (For example, you "caught" the fact that the song 'Little Boxes', often associated with Pete Seeger was written by Malvina Reynolds.) >The gift goes on> Nice job, boss man. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:01:16 +0100 From: "Azeem" Subject: RE: Joni and Younger Musicians (SJC?) Kate wrote: << I think when someone asks us for help the best thing we can do is share our experience. We can't do any more. I don't think Joni ever enjoyed the biz part of music (as an artist, who does?). So the last thing she's going to do is start a music label. Dave Matthews started a label which picked up Patty Griffin (yay dave!) he must like that part of the music biz or he wouldn't have done it. >> And Sherelle replied: << I think the calling to start a label is not something every musician has. I like mentoring artists but I don't know if I would ever have the mental energy to actually promote and sign other artists. I have my own label and publishing company but I'm pretty selfish about it. It's strictly a means to put my own CD and music out, that's all. It's pretty much in name only at this point too. There's a lot of responsibility to ensure the success of the person you would be signing. I would really take that to heart and feel very responsible for them. I think you are right about Dave Matthews really liking this aspect of the business. Plus, he is a better financial position to find the capital necessary to properly promote Patti Griffin. There are a lot of pros and cons to artists starting labels for other artists. I don't think Joni would touch that one with a ten foot pole!!! >> My twopenn'orth: In so far as I have any (impertinent) wishes on behalf of Joni, it wouldn't involve her lifting a finger to help anyone out; I would love it if she simply gave a sign that she has opened her ears and just listened to some of the great music that's out there TODAY, be it singer-songwriters or whatever else. I can't help feeling that if she dared to take a little dip, rather than sticking obstinately to her "Miles Davis is the only one I can relate to" mantra, she might find her enthusiasm for music rekindled. I think this would benefit HER. If (and only if) she then felt moved to speak positively about artists that she liked, it would have a really positive effect on them. And praise from her would certainly be hugely appreciated and, I'm sure, reciprocated. It might set up a virtuous circle of positive vibes. Man. Anyway, I know I have no business telling Joni Mitchell what she should do... Azeem in London NP: Rose Polenzani - And These Hands (I'll post about her separately) - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 29/08/2005 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:46:23 -0400 From: Patti Witten Subject: Performing Songwriter magazine asks young artists to name their inspiration Performing Songwriter's newest issue has the theme "inspiration." They asked a couple dozen younger artists to name the bands/artists who inspired them. Ok, I'm old. Really old. I only recognized 2 or 3 of their names! At least two of them cited Abba! One kid said his Mom turned him on to Stevie Wonder! I scanned the entire article but did not see our Joan's name mentioned once. Patti - -- Patti Witten on I-Town Records www.itownrecords.com MySpace http://myspace.com/pattiwitten http://pattiwitten.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:43:45 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: I love the VMAs njc It appears I missed the original post from Randy with whom I agree 99% of the time but is not one. The VMAs are what they are like anything else, and sometimes the effort that goers into dismissing other things is just a waste, why bother. I totally disagree on 50 cent. (By the way, the point is, he doesn't shoot you, he gets shot.) He is not as talented as Eminem or JayZ. The Ashley Simpson reference is oh so cute. These put downs just all get to the point of being smug and I would rather stand with a group of teens and twenties putting hands in the air and rapping along with the artist than sitting glibly otherwise and doing what Bob Dylan warned us against a long time ago - criticizing what is not understood, or at least, not ours. Sometimes being in this forum is like being with my parents 40 years ago. "That's not music." "They have no talent." "Now back in our day we had some [fill in the blank, now an aged hippy chick] and that was music." Now, I am going to the candy shop. Vince who has many bad qualities but at least has not gotten old before he died and Bob, get some bling, that preppy look went out with the Lettermen :-) - -------------- Original message -------------- > <50 Cent: You owe me 49 cents change. He makes Ashley Simpson > seem talented. I hope he doesn't kill me.> > > I think you're all right unless you're part of the G-Unit, or friends with Suge > Knight or something or other. Thanks for the laughs (and the sharp insights too) > Randy. > > Bob, totally bling-free ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:25:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: I love the VMAs njc - --- vince wrote: > These put downs just all > get to the point of being smug and I would rather stand with a group > of teens and twenties putting hands in the air and rapping along with > the artist than sitting glibly otherwise and doing what Bob Dylan > warned us against a long time ago - criticizing what is not > understood, or at least, not ours. I don't think its possible to truly, completely, 100% understand anything. At all! So in that case it would be our job not to "criticize" anything. At all! Not the war, not anything. Not one of Bob's better phrases or songs. (imho) Its not Bob at his best. He's preaching and, himself, with these words, criticizing! I am somewhat sad for the rap generation(s), not knowing the sweetness of harmony in their music. That would be like living in a world where one whole part of the visible spectrum was not visible...like we can never see any more reddish tones. No harmony fo'you! Ever! It'll come back. Someday. So I'm just waiting for the good stuff to come back around. (or at least evolve) It always does! I have no prob listening to young musicians if it tastes good. For example, I think Ozomatli is really great! (and there is harmony and melody evident in their stuff) So for me, I think, its not just rejecting what's new for the sake of rejecting what's new. Its not just old-fartism. Its just rejecting stuff that really doesn't taste good. Sometimes you just gotta spit something out. It may be great stuff in some sense, but if it makes ya puke, spit it out. That's like another line of Bob's when he says "you will not die, its not poison"...thats fine, I still ain't swallowing! Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:44:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: I love the VMAs njc and Vince stomps Em's POV into the ground like a cucaracha! you go! Em - --- vince wrote: > > I don't feel sorry for lovers of rap at all, rather, I embrace the > music and consider the fans very lucky. Embrace each genre or step > aside, but don't pity it or condescend because no genre of music has > all possibilities within it. > > At the age of 53 I have been to a lot of concerts in my days of every > type of music and that includes my love of opera and marching bands > and rock and roll and symphonic and it is at rap concerts alone where > I see everybody dance. Not some of the crowd, everybody dances. > Everybody. If a fan of rap were to have pity, it would be on those > who have lost the beat and would set aside percussion, creativity, > experimentation, sampling, and other innovations that bring something > new out of what was. > > I feel sorry for everyone who doesn't get it, whatever it may be. > > I feel sorry for those who reject the present for a future that they > expect to be like the past. > > And I wish that all may feel the harmony that occurs at a rap > concert. > > Vince > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > I am somewhat sad for the rap generation(s), not knowing the > sweetness > > of harmony in their music. > > That would be like living in a world where one whole part of the > > visible spectrum was not visible...like we can never see any more > > reddish tones. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:40:12 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: I love the VMAs njc I don't feel sorry for lovers of rap at all, rather, I embrace the music and consider the fans very lucky. Embrace each genre or step aside, but don't pity it or condescend because no genre of music has all possibilities within it. At the age of 53 I have been to a lot of concerts in my days of every type of music and that includes my love of opera and marching bands and rock and roll and symphonic and it is at rap concerts alone where I see everybody dance. Not some of the crowd, everybody dances. Everybody. If a fan of rap were to have pity, it would be on those who have lost the beat and would set aside percussion, creativity, experimentation, sampling, and other innovations that bring something new out of what was. I feel sorry for everyone who doesn't get it, whatever it may be. I feel sorry for those who reject the present for a future that they expect to be like the past. And I wish that all may feel the harmony that occurs at a rap concert. Vince - -------------- Original message -------------- > I am somewhat sad for the rap generation(s), not knowing the sweetness > of harmony in their music. > That would be like living in a world where one whole part of the > visible spectrum was not visible...like we can never see any more > reddish tones. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:33:04 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: "I never died," said he -- njc hi >>jerry wrote > She has been one of my heroes for 40 years. Her feeling are genuine and it > made me proud to see her standing and singing next to Cindy last > weekend.<<< you were there?!?!? wow....much respect & moral support to cindy & the people there who are not afraid to stand up for right. much compassion also to those who can not bring themselve to admit to themselves that their children died for nothing.......................... she has also been a favourite of mine for a long, long time (but not as long as 40 yrs - i only came in at "from every stage"..). reading the article mentioned made quite an impression - that someone who has been around for so long, been involved in so much, can still feel so much......... it must be soooooooo frustrating tho - "a sorrow in repeating all the old familiar wrongs..............." & in some typical jmdl synchronicity - she has just released 2 versions of "joe hill", a re release of "one day at a time" & a new version (dedicated to michael moore), on "bowery songs" scheduled for release on 6 september, which can be heard here: http://www.joanbaez.com/bowerysongs.html the contrast is stunning & beautiful, wisdom, maturity, depth, weariness, & that same integrity, emotion & compassion. ron - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Notaro" To: "ron" ; "Joni List" Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:48 PM Subject: Re: "I never died," said he -- njc > She has been one of my heroes for 40 years. Her feeling are genuine and it > made me proud to see her standing and singing next to Cindy last weekend. > > Jerry > >> hi >> >> a touching review of joan's performance at camp casey >> >> http://198.65.14.85/News/2005/31-40/34news01.htm >> >> >> quote: >> >> " When Ms. Baez returned to her private area behind the trailer, she sat >> down at a table, dropped her head into her folded arms, and wept. " >> >> >> >> ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:20:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: I love the VMAs njc - --- vince wrote: > Vince > who has many bad qualities but at least has not > gotten old before he died > Are you speaking from beyond the grave? Wooooo - scary! \ (:o > / (In case you're wondering, the mess above is a really lame attempt at drawing a ghost.Tilt your head towards your left shoulder and don't think too much, just let da spirit flow.) There may be some good rap artists out there but after a while, it all sounds the same to me, and I wonder if the really original ones have the same problems having their voices heard as indie artists in other genres. I like to think of myself as open-minded, but maybe I just have a hole in my haid. My mother thought all the music I listened to sounded the same too. Her classic line, that I've often quoted here: What's that dirge? My kids are fans of punk, new rock and emo. They like songs by people whose girlfriends have died and so on. They listen to The Killers, Evanescence, My Chemical Romance, The Arcade Fire and so on. Sarah likes Conor Oberst; Matthew leans more to the punk-y - Green Day, Sum 41, after having a brief flirtation with metal. They both like Queens of the Stone Age. There has been a refreshing change in their taste as they've moved beyond kid-pop and made their own discoveries. The J-Lo CDs have (thanks be) disappeared. Sarah has told me that discovering Bright Eyes is for her what my discovering Joni probably was to me. Even though she can't stand Joan, or doesn't get her, she understands the feeling of revelation when you find someone that seems to speak for you. I sometimes think though that my kids and maybe a lot of kids today are more close-minded about music than our generation was. It seems that they feel they can be fans of either rap OR rock, but not both, and it doesn't seem either side wants to listen to the other's music. They judge each other by the clothes they wear, on the basis that you can tell what kind of music people wear by their clothes. My daughter was at a clothing show recently, and a guy was categorizing people as they walked by, by what they were wearing: rapper, punk, emo. On the other hand, most of what I hear on regular commercial radio is much of a sameness, no matter if it's pop, rap, whatever. It seems that if they have success with one song, they immediately come out with ten more that use the same structures so, even if the first one was original, after hearing it hundreds of times and then its clones after that, it just gets boring. I think you should check out the digest for RR's post. Whether or not you agree with anything he says, it's still a fun read. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:09:05 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: "I never died," said he -- njc No. I wasn't there, Ron. I watched it on CNN. Jerry > She has been one of my heroes for 40 years. Her feeling are genuine and it > made me proud to see her standing and singing next to Cindy last weekend. > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:06:38 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: An essay by E. L Doctorow, njc An essay by E. L Doctorow ===================================================================== I fault this president (George W. Bush) for not knowing what death is. He does not suffer the death of our twenty-one year olds who wanted to be what they could be. On the eve of D-day in 1944 General Eisenhower prayed to God for the lives of the young soldiers he knew were going to die. He knew what death was. Even in a justifiable war, a war not of choice but of necessity, a war of survival, the cost was almost more than Eisenhower could bear. But this president does not know what death is. He hasn't the mind for it. You see him joking with the press, peering under the table for the WMDs he can't seem to find, you see him at rallies strutting up to the stage in shirt sleeves to the roar of the carefully screened crowd, smiling and waving, triumphal, a he-man. He does not mourn. He doesn't understand why he should mourn. He is satisfied during the course of a speech written for him to look solemn for a moment and speak of the brave young Americans who made the ultimate sacrifice for their country. But you study him, you look into his eyes and know he dissembles an emotion which he does not feel in the depths of his being because he has no capacity for it. He does not feel a personal responsibility for the thousand dead young men and women who wanted to be what they could be. They come to his desk not as youngsters with mothers and fathers or wives and children who will suffer to the end of their days a terribly torn fabric of familial relationships and the inconsolable remembrance of aborted life.... They come to his desk as a political liability, which is why the press is not permitted to photograph the arrival of their coffins from Iraq. How then can he mourn? To mourn is to express regret and he regrets nothing. He does not regret that his reason for going to war was, as he knew, unsubstantiated by the facts. He does not regret that his bungled plan for the war's aftermath has made of his mission-accomplished a disaster. He does not regret that rather than controlling terrorism his war in Iraq has licensed it. So he never mourns for the dead and crippled youngsters who have fought this war of his choice. He wanted to go to war and he did. He had not the mind to perceive the costs of war, or to listen to those who knew those costs. He did not understand that you do not go to war when it is one of the options, but when it is the only option; you go not because you want to but because you have to. This president knew it would be difficult for Americans not to cheer the overthrow of a foreign dictator. He knew that much. This president and his supporters would seem to have a mind for only one thing --- to take power, to remain in power, and to use that power for the sake of themselves and their friends. A war will do that as well as anything. You become a wartime leader. The country gets behind you. Dissent becomes inappropriate. And so he does not drop to his knees, he is not contrite, he does not sit in the church with the grieving parents and wives and children. He is the President who does not feel. He does not feel for the families of the dead; he does not feel for the thirty five million of us who live in poverty; he does not feel for the forty percent who cannot afford health insurance; he does not feel for the miners whose lungs are turning black or for the working people he has deprived of the chance to work overtime at time-and-a-half to pay their bills --- it is amazing for how many people in this country this President does not feel. But he will dissemble feeling. He will say in all sincerity he is relieving the wealthiest one percent of the population of their tax burden for the sake of the rest of us, and that he is polluting the air we breathe for the sake of our economy, and that he is decreasing the safety regulations for coal mines to save the coal miners' jobs, and that he is depriving workers of their time-and-a- half benefits for overtime because this is actually a way to honor them by raising them into the professional class. And this litany of lies he will versify with reverences for God and the flag and democracy, when just what he and his party are doing to our democracy is choking the life out of it. But there is one more terribly sad thing about all of this. I remember the millions of people here and around the world who marched against the war. It was extraordinary, that spontaneously aroused oversoul of alarm and protest that transcended national borders. Why did it happen? After all, this was not the only war anyone had ever seen coming. There are little wars all over the world most of the time. But the cry of protest was the appalled understanding of millions of people that America was ceding its role as the last best hope of mankind. It was their perception that the classic archetype of democracy was morphing into a rogue nation. The greatest democratic republic in history was turning its back on the future, using its extraordinary power and standing not to advance the ideal of a concordance of civilizations but to endorse the kind of tribal combat that originated with the Neanderthals, a people, now extinct, who could imagine ensuring their survival by no other means than pre-emptive war. The president we get is the country we get. With each president the nation is conformed spiritually. He is the artificer of our malleable national soul. He proposes not only the laws but the kinds of lawlessness that govern our lives and invoke our responses. The people he appoints are cast in his image. The trouble they get into and get us into, is his characteristic trouble. Finally the media amplify his character into our moral weather report. He becomes the face of our sky, the conditions that prevail: How can we sustain ourselves as the United States of America given the stupid and ineffective warmaking, the constitutionally insensitive lawgiving, and the monarchal economics of this president? He cannot mourn but is a figure of such moral vacancy as to make us mourn for ourselves. E. L. Doctorow Edgar Lawrence Doctorow occupies a central position in the history of American literature. He is generally considered to be among the most talented, ambitious, and admired novelists of the second half of the twentieth century. Doctorow has received the National Book Award, two National Book Critics Circle Awards, the PEN/Faulkner Award, the Edith Wharton Citation for Fiction, the William Dean Howell Medal of the American Academy of Arts and Letters, and the residentially conferred National Humanities Medal. Doctorow was born in New York City on January 6, 1931. After graduating with honors from Kenyon College in 1952, he did graduate work at Columbia University and served in the U.S. Army. Doctorow was senior editor for New American Library from 1959 to 1964 and then served as editor in chief at Dial Press until 1969. Since then, he has devoted his time to writing and teaching. He holds the Glucksman Chair in American Letters at New York University and over the years has taught at several institutions, including Yale University Drama School, Princeton University, Sarah Lawrence College, and the University of California, Irvine. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:58:15 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: its not the music, its you (and me) njc The ever wonderful Catherine asked: - -------------- Original message -------------- There may be some good rap artists out there but after > a while, it all sounds the same to me, and I wonder if > the really original ones have the same problems having > their voices heard as indie artists in other genres. I > like to think of myself as open-minded, but maybe I > just have a hole in my haid. My mother thought all the > music I listened to sounded the same too. Her classic > line, that I've often quoted here: What's that dirge? > Catherine, there was a great New Yorker column of 3-5 years ago IIRC even that close - I wish to hell I had saved it - some research scientist got interested in the question as to why was "his" music (that his parents thought all sounded the same but he thought was brilliant) so much better than that of his brilliant student researchers, since all the student reserachers were brilliant but "their" music - guess what - all sounded the same. from there he explored other things, and there are places where people get "fixed" whether it be for food, music, or whatever - In that by sheer total resistance I missed the getting fixed in music thing, I find rap as wonderfully diverse as any other music form. As I have said before, I am glad I taught my grandson the difference between East Coast and West Coast so he wouldn't have to learn it on the streets. (That is a very funny line...) I find rap to be incredibly diverse - not a bit of it sounds the same (except the second half of 50's latest cd but I do resent the comparisons of that talented artist to Ashley Simpson, I do resent it). And so many of you don't hear that at all - you think it all sounds the same. Who is right and who is wrong? There is no question: I am totally right and you are totally wrong. How can that be? I also love opera and whether it be bel canto or verisimo or whatever, I hear wonderul diversity in opera. I love to hear a snatch of an operatic piece and guess the composer (let's see, there is no counterpoint, it is obviously later Italian 19th century... therefoie it must be ________) Wagner is as differtent from Mozart as from Beethoven's one opera to Montiverdi to Puccini - it is all so unique, yet a large number of my friends think all opera sounds the same. Now with jazz - I know nothing of jazz. It all sounds the same to me. I coudln't tell John Coltraine from Charlie Parker to Thelonius Monk to the kid down the block if my life depended on it. It all sounds the same because I do not know the genre. To someone who knows the difference, who knows the music, who knows the genre, they find my ignorance appalling and ask why I can't tell the difference, why does it all sound the same to me. And that is it. If rap sounds the same to you, it is as if jazz sounds the same to me. It is not the music that sounds the same, it is the ear and the knowledge of the hearer. Rap doesn't suck - your undertsanding of it does. Rap doesn't sound the same - you are uneducated in what to listen to. Jazz doesn't suck - my understanding of it does. Jazz doesn't doesn't the same - I am uneducated in what to listen to. New Wave, Industrial (which sometimes I love and sometimes I hate), Heavy Metal, Hair Bands, House, Classical, Rock, Swing, Rap, Jazz, Techno, Broadway, Country, Church, 16th century religious motets, 19th century Evangelical - None of it Sucks and None of it Sounds the Same - it all depends on the knowledge of the listener. There are those who will say of any type of music: it all sounds the same. There are - get this - people who think that all white folk singer chicks sound the same. What! They can't tell the difference between Mitchell and Baez and Collins and Amos and Melanie and Springfield and DiFranco? How stupid they are?????? So white female singers suck because they all sound the same? As outrageous as that is, and offensive to some here, so is the critiicism of rap by those who know it not. A few months ago I heard a show on NPR about an Eqyptian singer who the host went on for 15 minutes about how wonderful she was, the greatest singer ever, a combination of the Beatles and Edith Piaf and on and on, he just raved about this all time best singer ever and then he played her stuff and it sounded TO ME like the background of a Mummy film. I had no idea if it was good or bad, I had not the knowledge of the art form to evaulate it or cast judgment. So my conclusion was not that it sounded the same or sucked, just that I do not have the training and education and knowledge to appreicate so I trust the judgment of someone who does. Just as my parents had no knowledge of rock and roll and had no way to evaluate the art form or cast judgement but they did - it all sounded the same to them. (And how ironic that my father is tone deaf to opera and I inherited his mother's ear for it.) If someone played for me the greatest Aleut music ever, I would't have a clue. The reason I know rap is because I have studied it, taken the time, listened carefully with an open mind and learned - what we ask of any student in a musical appreciation class when we teach different genres of music. The college student who struggles in Music Appreciation because all classical music sounds the same - not the music's fault, just the hearer does not know enough to know what to listen to. That is why Music is taught, especially for those who did not get their musical "fix" in a broard array of music, and msuic is far more vast than any one of us can apprehend. And we here - some like me here 7 years more or less - working on learning this one subset of music, the Mitchell oeuvre - will we not take time, as Michael Yarbrough begged us a long time ago, to open ourselves up to soemthing we didn't know and take a little time to undertsand that, at least to recognise what we don't know and admit that rather than judge? (Michael Y, whereever you are, I love you more than yoiu know!) If Rap sounds the same to anyone, it is not Rap's fault. After 30 years, you all don't think there is incredible artistry and diversity in the music, and as many different forms of rap as their of anything else? Come on, get real. It's not the music that fails to be artistric and diverse, it is the listener who fails to know what to listen for. You commented on the gap between kids, rock or rap, yes, in my teen years it was rock or country. One side or the other. Goth vs rock. Whatever each age group decides is its marker. This past summer I have been to some incredible alternative rock shows (my posts on Tolcher, Day, and DeGraw) and geezer rock shows (Journey and Donovan) and Latin (Los Lonely Boys) and rock (Mellencamp) and soul (Smokey Robinson) and the audience always veers towards the expected market. I have also been to rap concerts. And the most incredibly diverse audiences I have been in in my life, musically, the most racially diverse audiences, are rap. I am at outside of sports is at rap concerts and frankly I like it. I think it is to rap's great, great credit that it brings such a diverse audience and the rest of music ought to maybe try and learn something about diversity rather than - as Dylan said - criticize what they don't understand. When adults start saying, "I don't have the knowledge to appreciate that music" rather than say "it all sounds the same" or "that music lacks this and that" the world will be a better place. Because we'd see that the perceived faults lay not in the other, what is not known by or unknown to us, but the misunderstandings lay in our own selves, and apply that to life as well. I appreciate you Catherine for many reasons including your openness to explore and understand. Far better that than those stuck in their own groove in time not willing to hear the songs of life outside their range. Vince - -------------- Original message -------------- There may be some good rap artists out there but after > a while, it all sounds the same to me, and I wonder if > the really original ones have the same problems having > their voices heard as indie artists in other genres. I > like to think of myself as open-minded, but maybe I > just have a hole in my haid. My mother thought all the > music I listened to sounded the same too. Her classic > line, that I've often quoted here: What's that dirge? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:02:44 -0500 (CDT) From: michael@thepazgroup.com Subject: New Orleans Update At this point I am almost at a total loss for words, but will try to express what I am feeling. The damage is far worse than we imagined. Communication is very little if any. Most peoples cellphonesdo not work. Land lines and electricity totally out. Two breaches in the levee system has over 80% of New Orleans AND Metairie and Kenner under water. We have no communication with anyone in our own backyard. It appears that if we would have had a direct hit as feared New Orleans as we knew would be a memory. Calls continue to come in and the emails from all of you and I am so grateful. Where the fuck is our leader? How can he have a 5 week vacation while people are dying In Iraq and whereis the great leadership in regards to the Gulf Coast?? Sorry Paz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:24:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Happy Birthday JMDL! What a GREAT birthday present, Les - thanks a million to you and Lindsay for getting this up. Give yourselves a JWD for a job well done and keep 'em coming. Now when are we going to get some tapes from Mr. Uren? Bob NP: The Stones, "Satisfaction" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:34:33 -0400 From: vince Subject: njc Oh my God! vmas do suck! I did not watch the VMAs on Sunday, but I am watching them now. And I am shocked out of all belief. Someone thanked God for an award! That has never been done before in human history! [Pause: let me Google that: and I am correct, that has never ever been done before in human history] So let's mock these kids! Damn them for this radical innovation! Fat Joe is presenting now. What a stupid name all these rappers have! Why, back in the day people had good names like Fats Waller and Fats Domino. And listen if one can! Music that middle class on the cusp of elderly 50-somethings have never heard of! The horror! The horror! Playing music that was written after 1970! How dare they! Expect the old to learn something new? For shame! Oh good Lord! Oh my God! Jesus Christ! Missy Elliot just thanked God again, the bitch. Damn her to hell! I bet that bitch Missy Elliot will one day get voted into the Hall of Fame and being the bitch she is, she won't show up with the common plebeians of Cleveland (how de classe a city Cleveland is) but insist on a special "how humble I am" >>>>> look at me <<<<<<< presentation at her up close and personal QVC-show-to-sell-her-paintings hour-long music video made in LA where the cool people are. (Cleveland? hell no I won't go! I didn't sing Ohio, that was some other Canadian! I sang California! I only go to places in la-la-latte land now, where I can rip into other musicians in my tres chic designer clothes!) Oh! There is Coldplay making a cheap bid to be popular! Damn, all this radical stuff never done before! Now when I was their age bands never tried to be popular. I hate these kids. Oh Jumping Jehosiphant! 50 cent just trashed on Fat Joe! Oh the nerve! Why in Rat Pack Name of Everything Holy can't musicians respect each other like Sinatra - I think 50 needs his legs broken so can can learn real Old School respect the Frank way! Dane Cook is telling jokes in bad taste. Oh for the good old days when Andy Kaufman told only jokes in good taste. the link for the MTV VMA winners and story line: http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1508513/08282005/green_day.jhtml?headlines=true I am glad to see Green Day had a good (great) night and Ludacris (who I love in concert) took the best rap video moonman. and now that I am watching this, it is as always one of the most enjoyable shows of its type on the air, a great diversity of music and people having fun and how the terminally old hate when the young kids have fun. Vince who wonders, who first said, "I can't hear the fuckin' music" - was it someone at a VMA? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:54:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: New Orleans Update njc - --- michael@thepazgroup.com wrote: > At this point I am almost at a total loss for words, > but will try to express what I am feeling. The > damage is far worse than we imagined. Communication > is very little if any. Most peoples cellphonesdo > not work. Land lines and electricity totally out. > Two breaches in the levee system has over 80% of New > > Orleans AND Metairie and Kenner under water. We have > no communication with anyone in our own > backyard. Paz, I'm so sorry. It's all over the news. It's terrible. You will get through this. And we're all rooting for you. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:11:26 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: its not the music, its you (and me) njc vince wrote: > I appreciate you Catherine for many reasons including your openness to explore and understand. Far better that than those stuck in their own groove in time not willing to hear the songs of life outside their range. Okay. That was clearly aimed at me. Stuck in the past. Closed minded. What if I opened my mind to something, and still didn't like it? Is that OK? Is it OK to have an opinion? Or, if you really think something is banal, maybe it's you. Whatever. I spent 3 hours being open minded, and gave my opinion. That's all. Not right or wrong, though many would agree with me, and many would not. It might surprise you to know I recently I bought my first rap CD. It's called Sonic Jihad by an artist named Paris. It's full of very pointed and cleverly presented political and socially concious stuff. While I'm not very educated in the genre, I understand that at one time the roots of rap were more along these lines, instead of the machismo and often misogynistic garbage that tells kids it's okay to think of gays as fags and females as hos and sex objects. I think it was the guy from Run DMC that was saying the same thing recently. But, as you can see, I'm not rejecting the entire genre. But the incessant pounding...yeah after awhile it does sound all the same, at least the stuff I heard on the vmas. There are quite a few current artists I like. My friends probably think I'm wacky sometimes. I'm easily bored, and, as a songwriter and student of, indeed disciple of "the tower of song" (Cohen) I have a hunger for new and novel structures, especially harmonic structure. If a type of music is repetitious (reggae, electronica) or lacking in harmonic or melodic structure (rap) chances are I will lose interest fast. Not to say there are not exceptions that catch my imagination. I have had the same thoughts that Em expressed, about how sad it is that young people are missing out on the beauty of a lovely melody or a stunning four part harmony. I've actually shed tears over it. And while my post was meant to be humorous, I stand by it. For me. That's how I see it. Doesn't make it right or wrong. Without opinions, we'd all be drones. And at least I got your butt out of lurk mode, Rev. RR ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2005 #330 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)