From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2005 #242 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, June 15 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 242 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Michael Jackson, NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC [LCStanley7@aol.com] Joni quits after LOTC - question [Tejas4x4@aol.com] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC [Smurf ] RE: Joni quits after LOTC - question [Les Irvin ] RE: Joni quits after LOTC - question [Catherine McKay ] RE: Kate singing Joni [Parts of Yes ] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC [LCStanley7@aol.com] RE: memories of MG (njc) ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: Joni quits after LOTC - question [tejas4x4@aol.com] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC ["ron" ] Patti Smith's Meltdown London njc [Garret ] Public Broadcasting - NJC ["Ruth Davis" ] Re: paving over brave little parks, njc ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC [Randy Remote ] Freak out! A Joni ring tone! [Melissa Gibbs ] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: Michael Jackson, NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #171 [marilyn huggins Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC Hell wrote: > I don't know whether Michael Jackson is guilty of paedophilia. But he is > guilty of inappropriate behaviour, regardless of whether he thinks it's > "innocent". And any parent who lets their child sleep over at his house > (especially given past accusations) needs a reality check! Settling out of court with one boy for $20+ million and settling with another for something like $13 million over the years begs a lot of questions. Why pay so much just to be like Peter Pan? Why not go after the accusers for defamation, extortion and malicious prosecution? From what I understand after those settlements the law was changed to where if the accusation was made, the state must carry forward with a criminal investigation and prosecution, if necessary. One can no longer be bought off and it goes away. It was thought that this would help weed out or eliminate those who would make false accusations. From the expressions of the jurors in this case, they simply hated the mother. One juror said "why in the hell would any mother let her child sleep with him or any man?" It is as if the mother here was the one ultimately on trial or felt to deserve greater punishment. That said, I do believe the mother or any parent who would pimp out their children like this should also be investigated or prosecuted. > One bizarre piece of information I saw (from an interview with one of the > investigating detectives on this case) was the alarm system he has set up > for his bedroom. There's only one way in or out, and if someone > approaches > the room, an alarm sounds (only audible inside the room) when they're > about > 300 metres away. Why would anyone need that in their own home? There were a number of bizarre and alarming pieces of evidence introduced at trial but not enough apparently to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt. I personally am starting to have a problem with (relatively) poor state attorneys having to come up against some of the top attorneys in the country. The high powered defense attorneys go in with huge advantages - somewhat unlimited money, resources, ability to call their own shots vs. limited resources and often trial strategy decided by bureaucratic fiat or committee. Now all the pundits are on TV dissecting the poor lawyering skills of the state prosecutors. It's becoming more and more of a mismatch that is troubling to witness. > Anyway, I don't want to get into a debate about his guilt or innocence, > but > regardless of what kind of childhood he had (or didn't have), he's now an > adult. Personally I think he'd benefit from some heavy-duty psychiatric > counselling more than anything else. He needed help a long time ago but it seems those close to him (business and personal) cared more about him bringing in the money than anything else. It is tragic and sick. It will be interesting now to see if he now finally does get some help. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:30:24 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC Kakki>>California - the land where one can always be found not guilty by reason of celebrity... I agree with you on this point Kakki, & although I didn't pay close attention to this trial I have spoken with many people (some professionals) involved in the last accusation in the early 90s & believe that MJ in that case was not innocent... I think it is unfortunate the family took the money instead of going to court... it is unbelievable to me that after those accusations some parents still let their kids stay overnight there... my friend, a lawyer, says that you need to read what the jury says (I forget the official title of the document) & that not guilty does not translate into innocent... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:03:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC Kakki said: > Settling out of court with one boy for $20+ million and settling with > another for something like $13 million over the years begs a lot of > questions. Why pay so much just to be like Peter Pan? Why not go after the > accusers for defamation, extortion and malicious prosecution? I agree. I personally am starting to have a problem with (relatively) poor > state attorneys having to come up against some of the top attorneys in the > country. The high powered defense attorneys go in with huge advantages - > somewhat unlimited money, resources, ability to call their own shots vs. > limited resources and often trial strategy decided by bureaucratic fiat or > committee. Kakki? A Socialist? Jerry :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:09:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC Kate Bennett said: > I agree with you on this point Kakki, & although I didn't pay close > attention to this trial I have spoken with many people (some > professionals) > involved in the last accusation in the early 90s & believe that MJ in that > case was not innocent... I think it is unfortunate the family took the > money > instead of going to court... Shall we call you Peter Pan Bennett????? Jerry :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:31:31 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC Why pay so much just to be like Peter Pan? Why not go after the accusers for defamation, extortion and malicious prosecution? Perhaps because as he has said before he's "a lover, not a fighter." Settling on the way to court is good to do if one can, in my opinion. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:40:02 EDT From: Tejas4x4@aol.com Subject: Joni quits after LOTC - question Hi list - Does anyone know what drove Joni to quit the music biz around the the time LOTC? Looking for any interviews or information on this. I checked the JDML library and don't find any specifics. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated. thanks much, tejas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:29:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC I found myself wondering if this case would have ended differently if Michael had still been black! - --Smurf Kakki wrote: California - the land where one can always be found not guilty by reason of celebrity... - --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:31:10 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: RE: Joni quits after LOTC - question > Does anyone know what drove Joni to quit the music biz around > the the time LOTC? Well, Joni's been quitting the business since 1969. :-) Here are a few Library references: 1969: "Joni Mitchell has announced her public retirement..." http://www.jmdl.com/library/view.cfm?id=142 1974: "But that wasn't what made Joni Mitchell want to quit the business." http://www.jmdl.com/library/view.cfm?id=600 1982: "...when her latest bout of retirement fever eased..." http://www.jmdl.com/library/view.cfm?id=302 1998: "Joni Mitchell, who was considering retirement..." http://www.jmdl.com/library/view.cfm?id=50 2002: "I threatened to quit because I was P.O.ed and with good reason..." http://www.jmdl.com/library/view.cfm?id=982 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:52:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: Joni quits after LOTC - question - --- Les Irvin wrote: > > Does anyone know what drove Joni to quit the music > biz around > > the the time LOTC? > > Well, Joni's been quitting the business since 1969. > :-) Amelia, it was just a false alarm. It does make one wonder what the true nature of "retirement" is. I always thought it meant that you had stopped doing something for good because you were old enough and had saved up enough money to do NOTHING for the rest of your life, or devote time to something you really enjoy doing but couldn't find a way of being paid to do it. It could mean just a temporary withdrawal though. This last time, I think she maybe/kinda means it, but who knows? She may not be writing any new songs, but what about those compilations? Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:21:49 GMT From: "Ruth Davis" Subject: Re: paving over brave little parks, NJC Marianne said, "I heard on NPR radio this week in the last 3 years the rainforest in Brazil has been destoyed in unprecedented amounts. . sorry to bring the news." I hear that NPR itself may be paved over, if the current forces that be have their way. $100,000,000 is slated to be cut from the funding of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, leaving NPR and public TV to make up the difference from the listeners/viewers. Hopefully this will be stopped. I think it's time for a Green TV station on cable. It would be for-profit, and would have advertising, but the advertisers would be organic food producers and distributors, bio-fuel producers, indie label record companies, nutritional supplement companies, yoga/massage therapy chains, etc. TV writers and producers sickened by the fare shown on standard TV stations would be free to create entertainment outside the "Reality TV" paradigm. Bill Moyers could be invited to host his own show. Joni could even have a talk show on it! Just dreaming.... Ruth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:29:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Parts of Yes Subject: RE: Kate singing Joni I totally agree - Rainy Night House would be wonderful....what do you think of Roses Blue for Kate? Sean - --- hell wrote: > Walt wrote: > > > I absolutely agree, Sean, and I can think of > others that have the > > kind of drama that Kate does so well: > > As far as Kate Bush covering Joni, the first song > that I thought of was > "Rainy Night House" - I can hear Kate doing > wonderful things with that whole > "I sing soprano in the upstairs choir" piece! > > > Hell > _________________________________________ > "To have great poets, there must be great > audiences too" - Walt Whitman > > Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell > > "Where some have found their paradise Others just come to harm" - Joni Mitchell, "Amelia" (1976) "It took an hour, maybe a day But once I really listened, the noise Just went away" - Liz Phair, "Stratford-On-Guy" (1993) "On a clear day, I bet you can see the class struggle from here," - - Katrin Cartlidge (Hannah) in Mike Leigh's "Career Girls" "Take this Mute mouth Broken tongue. Now this Dark life Is shot through with light" - Suzanne Vega "Pilgrimage" (1990) "All I know of you is in my memory All I ask is you Remember me." - Suzanne Vega "Rosemary" (1998) "Honey help me out of this mess I'm a stranger to myself But don't reach for me, I'm too far away I don't wanna talk 'cuz there's nothing left to say" - - Fiona Apple "The Child is Gone" __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:54:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC - --- Kate Bennett wrote: my > friend, a lawyer, says that you need to read what > the jury says (I forget > the official title of the document) & that not > guilty does not translate > into innocent... This is very true. "Not guilty" doesn't mean "innocent." It means they can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt (what is a "reasonable doubt?") that the accused person did what he was accused of doing, but it doesn't mean he didn't do it. Likewise, there really is no such thing as "innocent until proven guilty." If you are arrested on suspicion of having committed a crime, then it's likely because the police believe they have enough evidence to suggest that you might have done the crime. It's then up to you to prove that you *didn't* do it, just as much as the onus is on the state (here it's the crown) to prove that you did do it. You can be accused of a crime, put in jail without bail pending a hearing, spend a fortune on legal fees, have the case ultimately dropped; or have a mistrial declared; or have another trial, and be declared "not guilty" but, in the meantime, you will have lost all of your savings, have debt up to the eyeballs for legal fees incurred, have lost your job and many years of your life doing all of this. In the meantime, if you are in jail, you are still treated as if you were a criminal, even if you didn't do it. If you are very rich and influential, you can be released on bail. If you are poor and the charges are very serious, you may very well sit in jail all this time. Very scary stuff. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:21:25 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC In a message dated 6/14/2005 1:09:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, flopit@telkomsa.net writes: did he pay this money to get them to drop a civil claim, or a criminal case? Civil cases ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:02:41 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: RE: memories of MG (njc) Mary and Suze, This has to be one of the most touching tributes I've ever read. Thank you both so much for being brave enough to share your feelings about MG. As wordy as I usually am, I find myself at a loss for them this time.... Love, Sherelle Mary wrote: Suze wrote: "I miss MG. Her sardonic wit would cut right to the quick. Her succinct posts made me laugh out loud. There was always a 'no coffee drinking zone' when opening her e-mail in the morning. Once, when I was running a computer lab after school, I read something she had written to me and almost hyperventilated I laughed so hard. My students were seriously considering calling 911. She was that damn funny. For those of you who never met MG, I hope you at least got to read her posts. For those new to the list, check the archives, or on the website for her tribute. She certainly was one-of-a-kind and a kindred Joni spirit. I am tipping a diet coke to your memory MG. I love you! Suze n.p. MG tribute from JoniFest 2004" Suze, I've been thinking of and very much missing MG, too, on what is, incredibly, the one-year anniversary of her passing. She was a beautiful soul, and a true original. We will not see the likes of her on this earth again any time soon. But ultimately, I am so grateful that we had the benefit of her heart, wit, and inimitable humor on this list for as long as we did. We were blessed. Incidentally, I'm going to a gathering in NJ in two weeks' time. I suggested to the hostess that she serve Taylor Ham as a representative dish of the state; she has a good sense of humor herself, and was amenable to that. Now I've been pretty strictly vegetarian since the first of the year. But if there's Taylor Ham at that party, then, MG, this one's for you. Requiescat in pace, my friend. Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:35:15 -0400 From: tejas4x4@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni quits after LOTC - question Thanks Les for taking the time to provide me some links...it's for a project i'm working on. thanks again, tejas - -----Original Message----- From: Les Irvin To: 'Joni List' Cc: Tejas4x4@aol.com Sent: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:31:10 -0600 Subject: RE: Joni quits after LOTC - question > Does anyone know what drove Joni to quit the music biz around > the the time LOTC? Well, Joni's been quitting the business since 1969. :-) Here are a few Library references: 1969: "Joni Mitchell has announced her public retirement..." http://www.jmdl.com/library/view.cfm?id=142 1974: "But that wasn't what made Joni Mitchell want to quit the business." http://www.jmdl.com/library/view.cfm?id=600 1982: "...when her latest bout of retirement fever eased..." http://www.jmdl.com/library/view.cfm?id=302 1998: "Joni Mitchell, who was considering retirement..." http://www.jmdl.com/library/view.cfm?id=50 2002: "I threatened to quit because I was P.O.ed and with good reason..." http://www.jmdl.com/library/view.cfm?id=982 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:09:24 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC hi >>>>>kakki wrote >>>> Settling out of court with one boy for $20+ million and settling with another for something like $13 million over the years begs a lot of questions. Why pay so much just to be like Peter Pan? Why not go after the accusers for defamation, extortion and malicious prosecution? i am curious (so is mj but thats not relevant here) about this since i never really followed much about him - other than laughing at the somewhat sick jokes. did he pay this money to get them to drop a civil claim, or a criminal case? if it was civil, then its understandable. the burden of proof is different (preponderance of possibilities vs beyond reasonable doubt) & the higher risks often make it worthwhile to settle. if criminal - how does that work? surely that is effectively a bribe & amounts to conspiring to defeat the ends of justice??? ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:08:19 +0100 From: Garret Subject: Patti Smith's Meltdown London njc I know i've banged on about the wonderfully eclectic lineup that Patti Smith and the Royal Festival Hall have pulled together for this two week long festival that started on saturday (good reviews of Ed Harcourt and Brian Jonestown Massacre), but i wanted to remind the London JMDLers that they could see something brilliant at this. try www.rfh.org.uk/meltdown for details. The next event is called "Peaceable Kingdom - War and the Innocent" "Inspired by the work of the young American humanitarian activist Marla Ruzicka, who died in a car bombing in Baghdad in April, this program is dedicated to the misunderstood and feared, populations of "foreign" wars. Tilda Swinton reads from the late Susan Sontag's Regarding the Pain of Others, an exploration of the effect of images of war. Joseph Strick's short film Interviews with My Lai Veterans, made in 1970, after the massacre of hundreds of Vietnamese villagers by American soldiers had been revealed by an investigative journalist, has a breathtaking, devastating resonance in the age of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. A first-hand account of the most recent debacles in winning hearts and minds will be provided by three war correspondents: Jon Lee Anderson, who covered the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq for the New Yorker magazine, and his award-winning colleagues Janine di Giovanni and Patrick Graham. Patti Smith closes the evening with "Peaceable Kingdom " accompanied by Ed Harcourt." At #10 it's a steal. BUT, me experience of living in London reminds me that even ten pounds are hard to come by. There are some free events too. Alongside an exhibition of Patti's photographs, the RFH ballroom has been made over by Hassan Hajjaj, creator of Salon Afrique, for the duration of the festiva and pays homage to British writers. This room features sound installatoins and a recreation of Gysin's Dreammachine. On saturday 18th there is a free event called THE WORD & PATTI from 1pm: Live poetry and performance stimulated by Patti Smith's Meltdown. Readings, discussions and performances on inspirational favourites from William Blake to the Beat generation, with opportunities for the public to take centre stage. Invited guests include Lemn Sissay, Patti Smith and New York poet Janet Hamill. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:08:51 GMT From: "Ruth Davis" Subject: Public Broadcasting - NJC It is actually worse than I thought when I posted my last message. The plan in Congress is to slash funding for public TV and NPR by $100 mil this year, and eliminate ALL FUNDING in two years. If any of you want to take action on this, you can copy the following link: http://www.moveon.org/publicbroadcasting/?id=5663-2791183-XRBohK41G81SBXgIEcXOaw&t=3 Ruth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:47:00 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: paving over brave little parks, njc Em, It's equally amazing that they actually book artists into a nice place. There are great sounding rooms all over the US that go underused while the stinky campus "clubs" get all of the business. Sincerely, Jim >At the Emmylou Harris concert a couple weeks ago, she was very amazed (as so many are) at the old building, and she said something like "I can't believe they haven't torn this down and put up something crappy". I don't think she used the word "crappy"...but something along those lines.> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:47:54 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC Kakki wrote: > Settling out of court with one boy for $20+ million and settling with > another for something like $13 million over the years begs a lot of > questions. When the police questioned this boy, he described unique blotches on MJ's penis. The sheriff then got a court order to photograph same. According to the police, the description matched the photos. Jackson then paid the hush money, and the police lost their witness. That's part of what made them so cranky, they lost their chance. During the recent trial, the judge would not allow admission of the photos into evidence. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/michaeljackson/010605jacksonsplotch.html > From the expressions of > the jurors in this case, they simply hated the mother. One juror said "why > in the hell would any mother let her child sleep with him or any man?" It > is as if the mother here was the one ultimately on trial or felt to deserve > greater punishment. The prosecution's case was weakened by the mother, who was perceived as a flake and a grifter. Even if she is a flake and a grifter, that does not make MJ innocent. Basically, they did not have enough hard (stop it!) evidence, or credible witnesses, leaving plenty of room for reasonable doubt. vince wrote: > from a legal perspective, I never heard anything that hinted to me > he was guilty and from the training and years I spent as an advocate for > abused children, I never got even the slightest hint he was guilty. What about the Bashir video, where MJ is holding the boy's hand, and Bashir asks incrediously whether Jackson really thinks it's okay for a 40 something man to sleep with boys? Jackson says there's nothing wrong with that. This so reminds me of the child molester we had in our neighborhood some years ago. He molested a boy, and when the parents and neighbors confronted him with it, he said that there was nothing wrong with what he did, he was just trying to make the boy "feel good", and gave them a book by Nambla that would 'explain' everything. This guy, who thankfully has moved away, was not an idiot, he was a very high IQ intellectual type. So there's a red flag. Jackson has denied having plastic surgery, finally admitting to two nose jobs. The grifter mother's claim that his soft girlish speech is an act, and that, unguarded, he speaks in a low, coarse voice and swears alot has been corraborated by others. And remember, this is the guy that dangled his own baby from a hotel balcony*. Screw loose? No question. Innocent of molestation? I'm far from convinced. RR *where was child protective services? A regular citizen would have been in deep s**t for that. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:13:16 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC In a message dated 6/14/2005 6:47:56 P.M. Central Standard Time, guitarzan@direcpc.com writes: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/michaeljackson/010605jacksonsplotch.html Interesting tabloid. Wonder what The National Enquirer has to say about it all? I prefer The Star though. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:53:37 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/14/2005 6:47:56 P.M. Central Standard Time, > guitarzan@direcpc.com writes: > > http://www.thesmokinggun.com/michaeljackson/010605jacksonsplotch.html > > Interesting tabloid. Wonder what The National Enquirer has to say about it > all? I prefer The Star though. > The boy's entire '93 declaration makes for some interesting reading, too. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/mjdec1.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:10:08 +1000 From: Melissa Gibbs Subject: Freak out! A Joni ring tone! Now I've seen everything! I found a Joni mobile phone ring tone to download from a site associated with the Sydney Morning Herald (our daily broadsheet). Even freakier is the song - not Big Yellow Taxi or even Both Sides Now, but A CASE OF YOU! The URL is: http://mobile.fairfax.com.au/index.cfm?dir=catalogue&page=purchase&type_clas s=poly&handsetid=&libid=27954&&CFID=129210&CFTOKEN=69826493 It could have been worse - it could have been Dancin' Clown! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:51:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC - --- Randy Remote wrote: > This so reminds me of the child molester we had in > our neighborhood > some years ago. He molested a boy, and when the > parents and > neighbors confronted him with it, he said that there > was nothing wrong > with what he did, he was just trying to make the boy > "feel good", and > gave them a book by Nambla that would 'explain' > everything. This guy, > who thankfully has moved away, was not an idiot, he > was a very high > IQ intellectual type. Not that having an IQ has anything to do with emotional stability. Some of the most f*cked-up people I know are very intelligent - and scary as hell. Beware of anyone who refers to him/herself as "an intellectual" <>. > Jackson has denied having plastic surgery, finally > admitting to two nose > jobs. Really? But it looks so real!** The grifter mother's claim that his soft > girlish speech is an act, and > that, unguarded, he speaks in a low, coarse voice > and swears alot has > been corraborated by others. Somehow, this creeps me out more than some of the other stuff. And remember, this is > the guy that dangled > his own baby from a hotel balcony*. Screw loose? No > question. Innocent > of molestation? I'm far from convinced. > RR > > *where was child protective services? A regular > citizen would have > been in deep s**t for that. > No kidding. You'd probably never see your kid again, not without supervision. **And speaking of great nose jobs, I have to wonder, how does any surgeon get away with doing a job like that on someone and still keep his/her license to practice? They're not supposed to perform unnecessary mutilative surgery (as opposed to necessary mutilative surgery?) Maybe it was Dr. Nick Rivera... Hi, everybody! - Hi, Dr. Nick! OK, enough Michael Jackson jokes from me. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:09:15 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC I wrote: >> The high powered defense attorneys go in with huge advantages - >> somewhat unlimited money, resources, ability to call their own shots vs. >> limited resources and often trial strategy decided by bureaucratic fiat >> or >> committee. Jerry wrote: > Kakki? A Socialist? Ah Jerry! ;-) No, no, on one hand I equate inefficient bureaucracy, decision by committee as a by-product of socialism and I do not like that. On the other hand, I do believe in striving for equity and fairness in the matters that concern us the most. To me that does not have to be achieved only by way of legal fiat, or a particular political ideology, it should be ideally happen because it is the right thing to do. How to achieve it (leveling the playing field)? Off the top of my head I say give the state attorneys (if they have proven that they are smart and qualified) more individual freedom to act independently within the system. Intellectual mano a mano, so to speak. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:31:29 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC Ron wrote: > if it was civil, then its understandable. the burden of proof is different > (preponderance of possibilities vs beyond reasonable doubt) & the higher > risks often make it worthwhile to settle. I don't know - he could have spent a fraction of the total of $30+ million dollars in legal fees he spent in settling successfuly fighting back against the accusations if they were truly false. What price one's reputation and good name if one is innocent? Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:52:24 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, NJC Kate wrote: > I agree with you on this point Kakki, & although I didn't pay close > attention to this trial I have spoken with many people (some > professionals) > involved in the last accusation in the early 90s & believe that MJ in that > case was not innocent... I think it is unfortunate the family took the > money > instead of going to court... it is unbelievable to me that after those > accusations some parents still let their kids stay overnight there... my > friend, a lawyer, says that you need to read what the jury says (I forget > the official title of the document) & that not guilty does not translate > into innocent... Exactly what I have been thinking. I was amazed that one juror said that he thought MJ was probably guilty in past incidents but they didn't prove it this time. This all gets me pondering about how far do we go being strictly legalistic and in the process sometimes foregoing the larger picture. Also, I know you have written before that it is pretty well known in your area for years what was going on at Neverland. Even L.A. I have heard fairly first hand, credible accounts from people regarding MJ for years. Legalistically this would all be hearsay. But I wonder sometimes when one hears anecdotal evidence from far and wide over a long period of time - shouldn't there be a point when that also carries some weight? It's on my mind these days anyway because of a completely unrelated situation I am involved in. Some things that are true are very difficult to prove in a quick and simple way and there is often not one convenient smoking gun document or piece of evidence. The evidence is often experiential and the knowledge of its reality is based on an anecdotal culmination of events over time. 10 people say the elephant was in the room but they didn't take a photo of it at the time to later prove it was there to others. So we conclude it never was in the room? Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:13:36 -0700 (PDT) From: marilyn huggins Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #171 does anyone know how to get a poster of the Hejira picture, I want it for my wall Marilyn from Stoneham formerly Malden onlyJMDL Digest wrote: onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, June 14 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 171 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: - -------- Re: Joni Mitchell and Kate Bush covers [Em ] Kate singing Joni [littlebreen@comcast.net] Joni's first performance of Coyote ["Les Irvin" ] Re: Joni's first performance of Coyote [jrmco1@aol.com] Re: Joni's first performance of Coyote [Jamie Zubairi RE: Kate singing Joni ["hell" ] Re: Michael Jackson, SJC [LCStanley7@aol.com] R: Exacting music/emotional moments [StDoherty@aol.com] Re: Joni's first performance of Coyote [Bob Muller ] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 04:55:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell and Kate Bush covers - - --- Parts of Yes wrote: > I could sorta hear "Top of the City," and a pre-Blue > Joni covering "The Man WIth a Child in His Eyes." oddly, I can imagine the Travelogue voiced Joni doing "The Man WIth a Child in His Eyes." Weird, huh? Em - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:59:03 +0000 From: littlebreen@comcast.net Subject: Kate singing Joni Hi, Sean, You said: > I absolutely agree, Sean, and I can think of others that have the kind of drama that Kate does so well: Anima Rising Offnight Backstreet Conversation (earlier Kate) Wolf That Lives in Lindsay Jungle Line The Only Joy in Town and many others. Makes me kind of wish Kate would do an all-Joni album, something I've wished of others, including k d lang and Shawn Colvin. Speaking of Kate, is there any more word as to whether she's working on an album -- it's been quite a while, but I seem to remember reading some time back that she was working on something, possibly for release in '05. i know The Red Shoes got a dissappointing reception, but I'd hate to think of her hanging up her magical muse forever. Nice idea, Sean! Walt - - -- Let the walls go tumbling down Falling on the ground And all the dogs go running free The wild and gentle dogs Kenneled in me - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:23:33 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: Joni's first performance of Coyote This week's MP3: Almost certainly the first ever public performance of "Coyote"! This was performed while Joni was traveling with the Rolling Thunder Revue in Augusta, Maine on November 26, 1975. Joni introduced the song by saying that she had written it "yesterday". Download it here: http://s14.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0TX88YUVCCH012L85WLBG7J3SM Enjoy, Les - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:55:01 -0400 From: jrmco1@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's first performance of Coyote Fantastic, Les! What a great insight into Joni's "Coyote" creative process. Thanks for sharing this ultra-rarity. Geez, what else you got, dude? - - -Julius - - -----Original Message----- From: Les Irvin To: 'Joni List' Sent: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:23:33 -0600 Subject: Joni's first performance of Coyote This week's MP3: Almost certainly the first ever public performance of "Coyote"! This was performed while Joni was traveling with the Rolling Thunder Revue in Augusta, Maine on November 26, 1975. Joni introduced the song by saying that she had written it "yesterday". Download it here: http://s14.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0TX88YUVCCH012L85WLBG7J3SM Enjoy, Les - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:40:33 +0100 (BST) From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Re: Joni's first performance of Coyote Well, yeah, she says that it was written yesterday, in a non-ironic way so we can assume that it was written the day before the performance. She mentions looking at the daily rushes' - were they filming the film of 'Rolling Thunder' (Reynaldo and Clara?), was she inspired by the haphazard footage of what was taken? I can certainly imagine so... each stanza starts with an image, so it's more than likely... Nice that she starts off with the whole movement of the chords before she gets into the vocal, just to introduce it to the new listeners. No image of the farmhouse burning down... pity... or my favourite line about Coyote smelling her scent on his fingers while watching a waitress' legs. I guess it was embryonic, the structure was there, we just needed the rest of the story. Thanks for that Les, I'd've never heard it otherwise. Much Joni Jamie Zoob - - --- Les Irvin wrote: > This week's MP3: > > Almost certainly the first ever public performance > of "Coyote"! > > This was performed while Joni was traveling with the > Rolling Thunder Revue > in Augusta, Maine on November 26, 1975. Joni > introduced the song by saying > that she had written it "yesterday". > > Download it here: > http://s14.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0TX88YUVCCH012L85WLBG7J3SM > > Enjoy, > Les > ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:37:23 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: RE: Kate singing Joni Walt wrote: > I absolutely agree, Sean, and I can think of others that have the > kind of drama that Kate does so well: As far as Kate Bush covering Joni, the first song that I thought of was "Rainy Night House" - I can hear Kate doing wonderful things with that whole "I sing soprano in the upstairs choir" piece! Hell _________________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:46:53 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Michael Jackson, SJC In a message dated 6/13/2005 10:09:29 P.M. Central Standard Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: If Joni Mitchell writes and performs a song that touches us deeply, does that entitle us to know all about her private life? Hi Catherine, Thought provoking question. Thanks. Joni's opened more of her private life than most I would say. But, from a song that touches me deeply, I know Joni only recalls her private life's illusions, so we would only see once removed illusions if we did have a look at "all" of her private life. The forest is beautiful and so are the individual trees she's made visible through her interviews and songs. But I realize that "no one knows, they can never get that close, guesses at most, guesses based on what each set of time and change is touching..." Love, Laura - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:08:48 EDT From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: R: Exacting music/emotional moments The whole of Van Morrison's Ballerina ... any moment ... for instance, the light is on the left side of your h-word (probably head) - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:44:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Joni's first performance of Coyote THIS week...hey, I like the sound of that! She also performed Edith and the Kingpin and Don't Interrupt The Sorrow that evening, and would typically perform those three songs from this date forward, at least from the recordings that I have. Besides this Coyote debut, her singing a verse of "This Land Is Your Land" along with everyone else for a closer each night was pretty cool. Maybe you can make that NEXT week's mp3. :~) Bob - - --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! - ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #171 ********************************* - ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe - ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2005 #242 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)