From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2005 #140 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, March 28 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 140 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: "The Easter Birds" ... starring Jody -- njc [Bob Muller ] Re;Birthday gift to Joni: a cat [Lucy Hone ] Re: njc [Lori Fye ] Re: condoms and AIDS, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Birthday gift to Joni: a cat [Randy Remote ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #91 [John Sprackland ] Re: condoms and AIDS, njc ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Re: Frankenstein Science - NJC [Lori Fye ] Re: Tragedy at Red Lake High School (njc) [Lori Fye ] Re: Tragedy at Red Lake High School (njc) ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Re: Tragedy at Red Lake High School (njc) [Lori Fye ] Re: condoms and AIDS, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: condoms and AIDS, njc [Jerry Notaro ] Re: condoms and AIDS, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: condoms and AIDS, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] RE: pope; and, celibacy NJC [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Tragedy at Red Lake High School (njc) ["McMillan Brad" ] Re: condoms and AIDS, njc ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Paul Hester (Crowded House) found dead in park NJC [hell ] Hunting (njc) [vince ] Re: condoms and AIDS, njc ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] njc Carnivale - Deadwood [vince ] Re: bozos njc [Randy Remote ] Re: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time NJC [mags h ] RE: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time NJC ["Richard Flynn] Re: Paul Hester (Crowded House) found dead in park NJC [Catherine McKay <] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 03:34:32 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: "The Easter Birds" ... starring Jody -- njc Thanks Smurf - I always appreciate seeing pictures of naked chicks. Bob NP: Guided By Voices, "Yours To Keep" Smurf wrote: http://tokyo.craigslist.org/rnr/65739022.html Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:06:43 -0600 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Rhythm & Torch Updates NJC Hi all, Just a little news to brighten your day! ;-) Our last gig at M's on February 19th was a smashing success! We started a bit late, but held on to a nice sized audience most of the evening. Three people asked Yolonda. "What was that song that you sang about being a compliment? Who did that? Can I buy it on a record?" She smirked and said, oh, that's an original of Steve's... Every Cliche' Might Apply" (The chorus goes: Are you my compliment? You should be my compliment Sweet, romantic compliments... Yogi has been whining about doing that song because she doesn't like her 'delivery/performance' of it. LOL. I have never been so suprised by the response to that song! Jeff and her ex Gregg really love it as well. Go figure...) R&T will be back at the M & M Club on the corner of Chicago & Water Streets in beautiful Third Ward Milwaukee this Saturday evening. (That's April 2nd.) We have a bunch of new songs for you that are very hot and sultry. (Basia, Blomberg & Mahaffey, and BETTE MIDLER!) Even a new lighting system... We spent yesterday trying to figure it out...yikes! Heads up on a gig in Manitowoc WI on Saturday July 23rd for a Leukemia Bike Ride. Details coming soon! We've been pounding the pavement to clubs and bars and restaurants with our promo packets and here's hoping we get some calls for the summer months. Lots of nibbles, but no bites... but we'll let you know! Until then- Steve Rhythm & Torch ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:35:48 +0100 From: Lucy Hone Subject: Re;Birthday gift to Joni: a cat Dear Jim (see below re your letter) What an interesting (if slightly unusual) thing to suggest. Her birthday is not until November, as you say, but I personally dont think any one should ever give anyone a pet unless they are sure they want one and you go and choose it with them.... To me it is a sweet thing to suggest... but it does not make sense....but then I am only one voice... I mean you do have to look after cats and I would think she maybe likes to remain fairly unfetterd by the hassle of livestock in the house... and here am I with a dog.... and he takes up a lot of time ... but I chose him and he was not thrust upon be by unknown and unintroduced strangers who thought I might like him for a gift..... Also she may not be that keen on cats anymore...(was she ever?)might like to admire them from a distance but not actually have one, Maybe she has just managed to get to a point of never having to have a cat agaion (the last one haveing gone off to meet its maker) or she may be a cat fanatic but sick to the back teeth of people thinking she might like another one when her house already stinks of cat pee and she is not sure how to cope..... We could send her a toy one... but again why would it matter to her? What I like about Joni is that she does not (seem to) crave our attention, possibly has no interest really in anything we have to say or have a care in the world for the interest we show in her work. She maybe does, but probably does not, belong to this list. She is her own person, doing her own thing, with not ( i hope) one feeling of ever having to do anything that we would or would not approve of. I still think of her as a great poet and song writer, with skills that go way way beyond some of those who are out there today..... but I would not send her a cat, a dog, a card, a letter, or even a bunch of flowers.... I would not approach her if I saw her, I would let her be and I think any form of living creature would be a huge assumption on our part, cruel to the animal, and a great invasion of her privacy.... Finally.... I always stick with the view that a dog or cat is not just for Christmas, (or Birthdays) there should always be left overs for Boxing Day (or a midnight feast).... that is why turkey is so much better.....(I AM JOKING BEFORE ANY OF YOU GET WORRIED) So sorry Jim, nice thought, but it would not get my vote... Maybe she could use a beret... Lucy on Easter monday having been shifting furniture up and down the stairs... NP the washing machine and tumble drier.... accompanied by the sound of a Kawasaki ZX6R having its engine tuned!!!! Ah blilssful English Bank Holiday afternoons....... Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:41:56 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Birthday gift to Joni: a cat I know her birthday doesn't come up for awhile but what do you think? Setting aside for a second the challenge of getting permission, (which I think can be done), would it make sense to give her a cat? Lama np: my cat, Joan, munching salmon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:34:48 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: njc > >he's a disturbed human being > That's not what you were saying last night! How come you were saying > bushie...I love bushie... in your sleep? Bree, I'm SURE you know what Marianne meant!! >; ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:44:46 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: condoms and AIDS, njc Randy wrote: It is especially hard to forgive the Vatican for telling Africa that condoms don't prevent AIDS, a year or two ago. A bit of an info-inquisition, I would say. Hi Randy, It is risky to use a condom to have sex with a person with AIDS, but it for sure is much more risky to not use a condom. Cardinal Georges Cottier saw the light when he proclaimed the legitimate use of condoms to save lives in Africa and in Asia where poverty is prevalent. He is a theologian within the Vatican. Maybe he will be the next Pope. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:54:53 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Birthday gift to Joni: a cat "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: > I know her birthday doesn't come up for awhile but what do you think? > > Setting aside for a second the challenge of getting permission, (which I > think can be done), would it make sense to give her a cat? A picture of a cat, yes. A real cat, no. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:53:08 +0100 From: John Sprackland Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #91 In message , Rob Ettridge writes >Hi > >As a subscriber to Word magazine from issue 1 I was pleased to see Joni on the >cover last month, but was beaten to the punch in letting the list know about >it. > >But unless I've missed it, no-one has yet reported on the follow up letters >that appeared in the April edition. The second letter has content that was >news to me at least. > >They're not long so I'll type them up here: > >"Congratulations to Jim Irvin for an article that does justice to a great >artist, just about the only songwriter of her generation who could stand toe >to toe with Bob Dylan. Though how you can justify having two tracks from >Mingus in your best twenty Joni tunes, I fail to understand. >Jo Bland." ... Yeah, I thought that too - how come only two? I'd definitely include 'Dry Cleaner', 'Boogie Man', 'Wolf' and 'Pork Pie Hat', at least... John Southport, UK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:21:27 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: condoms and AIDS, njc Hi Laura- I'm glad someone from the Vatican has finally admitted this. It comes a year and a half after their absurd pronouncement in Oct. 2003 that HIV virus can pass through the condom material because of "microscopic holes", a notion flatly rejected by the scientific/health community. It also comes with the qualification "for the poorest regions" of Africa and Asia. At least it is a small step out of the fog. "That statement caused tension in the Vatican, and a day later the conference issued a statement saying that the church had not changed its doctrine on condoms." http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1402951,00.html The real reason for the anti birth control stance, IMO is that they are afraid of losing congregants, and prefer loss of life to loss of churchgoers. If it was just about promiscuity, they would not condemn contraceptives across the board, for married people as well as singles. It's my understanding that Catholics in the developed world ignore the ban anyway, but it is unconscionable to give this kind of advice to those in the third world, as the Vatican has done. I hope, as you do, that they will have more enlightened leadership in the near future. RR LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: > Randy wrote: It is especially hard to forgive the Vatican for telling > Africa that condoms don't > prevent AIDS, a year or two ago. A bit of an info-inquisition, I would > say. Hi Randy, It is risky to use a condom to have sex with a > person with AIDS, but it for sure is much more risky to not use a > condom. Cardinal Georges Cottier saw the light when he proclaimed > the legitimate use of condoms to save lives in Africa and in Asia > where poverty is prevalent. He is a theologian within the Vatican. > Maybe he will be the next Pope. Love,Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:17:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: condoms and AIDS, njc Laura, Do you disagree with the CDC statement in all of their research publications: Latex condoms, when used consistently and correctly, are highly effective in preventing transmission of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. I don't think "highly effective" and "risky" are equatable terms. Jerry LCStanley7@aol.com said: > Hi Randy, > > It is risky to use a condom to have sex with a person with AIDS, but > it > for sure is much more risky to not use a condom. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:19:43 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Frankenstein Science - NJC Suzanne wrote: > I have listened to sound bits like all of you for the last several weeks on > the Schiavo case - it's Frankenstein science - life with a soul is not life > ... the circus they have created on this case raises the question - are any > of us worth millions of dollars to vegetate while others cannot get basic > care? With all the talk of love, where were they when she was in the > process of getting to the crisis that precipitated this state? Isn't it a > bit hypocritical if not absurd to claim love as if every one had been paying > close attention before her demise? > > In every tragic case on the national landscape people give a multitude of > warning signs and sit by and why? The effort to prevent a vegetable is far > more involved than the effort to sit by the bedside of one - this story > sickens me and it hits so hard at the root - but hey with my own ego do I > really have time for anyone else? > If one is honest we are all superficial, self absorbed assholes waving peace > signs, lighting candles, and expressing hollow sympathies after the fact - > and then its off to the boutique, the hairdresser, the ballgame, the bar - > yea depth, - much speaking to assuage guilt. Suzanne, I think this is the best thing you have ever written here. Thanks for writing it. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:27:37 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Tragedy at Red Lake High School (njc) Chiming in late here ... Vince wrote: > Many parts of this country, hunting is a regular activity and kids hunt. But the question is, WHY? Do they not get enough to eat? No grocery stores in their neck of the woods? Where is the fairness in shooting an unarmed animal? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:58:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: Tragedy at Red Lake High School (njc) Oh, Lord. Here we go. Is there any controversial topic we DON'T discuss??? Jerry :) Lori Fye said: > Chiming in late here ... > > Vince wrote: > >> Many parts of this country, hunting is a regular activity and kids hunt. > > But the question is, WHY? Do they not get enough to eat? No grocery > stores in their neck of the woods? Where is the fairness in shooting > an unarmed animal? > > Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:04:43 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: eating disorder teaching opportunity, njc JSerkes, You have got a good point here. . This would be a wonderful opportunity to teach the world about eating disorders. We could get a lot of prevention and teaching out of this. Marianne From: JSerkes@aol.com "OK my two cents and sense. This discussion should be about what happens to women when the starve themselves. Terri got this way through an eating disorder one of the biggest detriments to womankind. She had an eating disorder that was uncaught and swept under the rug. Millions of women everyday, are anorexic or bulimic, and do it for years and years striping their bodies of vital nutrients, creating havoc on their hearts, lungs, livers, kidneys, and throats. That is what this discussion should be about. Her husband says she indicated to him she did not want to live this way had it come up. Well, it did, and he is caring that out. I could care less if he is with another woman or has kids. I could care less.Her parents should be talking about eating disorders and helping young women to stop it, find themselves esteem through other ways besides pleasing the male eye, or society's eye. Women are driven to do this, and learn it way to early. Joni knows it, has written about it cryptically. " _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:18:59 +0000 From: LittleBreen@comcast.net Subject: Re: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time Hi, Maggie -- I can't wqit to get my hands on that book -- it sounds wonderful. All my life, I've known people -- we've all known people, who aren't stupid -- they mayt even get all A's -- but who don't seem to "get" other people. (Believe me, I've roomed with a couple of them.) Most people know of autism largely or exclusively through the movie Rain Man, which is an excellent protrayal of about 1% of all people with autism. ("High functioning".) I personally beleive that, as with everything else (including synesythesia, the ability or compulsion to see/hear/etc. one sense in terms of anothers -- "That chord sounds blue." -- and, of course, sexuality), there is no either-or, but a spectrum, possibly a multidimentional one, of all human behaviors. The trick is to be interested without condescension or fear, to be helpful where possible, and above all, to be accepting -- something I'm willing to bet the book teaches. We're all bozos on this bus. love, walt - -- Let the walls go tumbling down Falling on the ground And all the dogs go running free The wild and gentle dogs Kenneled in me ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:23:53 +0000 From: LittleBreen@comcast.net Subject: Re: 2 Joni's in the top 50 -- yay Yay, Michael! Shoulda been more like ten or twenty, but at least they didn't commit a crime against humanity and omit her altogether! And they included quite a few of my other favorites, by Sarah, Gordon, Allanis, k.d., etc. best, walt - -- Let the walls go tumbling down Falling on the ground And all the dogs go running free The wild and gentle dogs Kenneled in me ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:21:18 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Tragedy at Red Lake High School (njc) Jerry wrote, with a smile: > Oh, Lord. Here we go. Is there any controversial topic we DON'T discuss??? It's like the magnetic letters on the fridge on the tv show, "Family Plots." The letters ask: "Can't we all just get along?" Beneath that, someone has put the letters "NO". (And last night, Chuck changed that to "NO Hell NO.") Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:21:18 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Tragedy at Red Lake High School (njc) Jerry wrote, with a smile: > Oh, Lord. Here we go. Is there any controversial topic we DON'T discuss??? It's like the magnetic letters on the fridge on the tv show, "Family Plots." The letters ask: "Can't we all just get along?" Beneath that, someone has put the letters "NO". (And last night, Chuck changed that to "NO Hell NO.") Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:55:07 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: condoms and AIDS, njc Jerry wrote: Do you disagree with the CDC statement in all of their research publications: Latex condoms, when used consistently and correctly, are highly effective in preventing transmission of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. I don't think "highly effective" and "risky" are equatable terms. Hi Jerry, No, I don't disagree at all because the necessary qualification is there... "when used consistently and correctly." The risk I was speaking about is in the use, not in the condom itself. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:03:40 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: condoms and AIDS, njc > Well, anything used incorrectly risks effectiveness. As someone who always > strongly encourages the practice of safe sex, I think calling > the use of condoms as 3risky2 is alarming. > > Jerry > > Jerry wrote: > > Do you disagree with the CDC statement in all of their research publications: > > Latex condoms, when used consistently and correctly, are highly effective in > preventing transmission of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. > > I don't think "highly effective" and "risky" are equatable terms. > > > Hi Jerry, > > No, I don't disagree at all because the necessary qualification is > there... "when used consistently and correctly." The risk I was speaking > about is in the use, not in the condom itself. I didn't mean to imply > otherwise. > > Love, > Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:26:58 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: condoms and AIDS, njc Randy wrote: The real reason for the anti birth control stance, IMO is that they are afraid of losing congregants, and prefer loss of life to loss of churchgoers. Hi Randy, I don't understand the above. How could they lose congregants if they were for birth control? Wouldn't they gain congregants? I've always heard from the Catholic church that it is ultimately up to the married couple's conscience to decide about birth control. The church gives guidance through statements and suggestions but doesn't decide for people. Nor does it condemn people for their choices. It might warn people their soul is in grave danger, but today it doesn't tell anybody they are condemned for anything except not accepting God's love. Birth control pills are accepted by the Catholic church when taken to prevent disease such as ovarian cancer, etc. So, it would follow that condoms used to prevent disease such as AIDS would be accepted also. The church isn't a scientific organization and listens to counsel from the medical community. It obviously had the wrong information about condoms and has taken a long time to get the facts right. The church moves like an elephant sometimes, but it does move. I would say the target toward insuring positive changes in the Catholic church regarding AIDS and also homosexuality would be organizations like the Catholic Medical Society (CMS) which pushes a conservative agenda through its medical advice to the Vatican and clergy. The CMS is a very active and influencial organization. I was a member of it several years ago but couldn't stomach it for very long. I probably should have stayed in to rock the boat when possible... maybe in time I'll join again and do so. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:30:20 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: condoms and AIDS, njc Jerry wrote: Well, anything used incorrectly risks effectiveness. Hi Jerry, In my experience, incorrectly using alcohol increases its effectiveness. Wink. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:59:28 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: RE: pope; and, celibacy NJC Vince wrote: Without saying too much (as if I ever do, ha!) there was from at least close to the start a celibate/monastic strain within the Church but that is what it was and where it stayed until the beginning of the 2nd millennia. Power and money were not two separate things, they were one, in the Church and society (not much difference there either) from say the 7th-8th century on, and bishoprics (i.e., dioceses and watch Smurf have fun with that word) were being passed down from father to son to grandson and the same was happening in parishes. When they were not inherited, they were sold. The corruption was so great that is why a Francis of Assisi and Clair were so noticed. The institution of clerical celibacy was to break the generational cycle of abuse and corruption - as well as create episcopal openings so that power (and money) would flow to and from Rome, rather than remain in the bishoprics. Hi Vince, There are saints from every century who were monastics/celibates and many good books on these. Clerical celibacy and monasticism has always been in the church from the beginning; it was encouraged by Christ, and further encouraged by St. Paul. However it has never been dogma, like believing Christ is the Son of God. It is encouraged but not commanded. The beginnings of celibacy and monasticism go back to Scripture. There has always been some corruption in the church. At sometimes more and sometimes less. The church is composed of people, and people will always make mistakes. If I was looking for perfection, I wouldn't look for it in the church (people)... maybe in diamonds or in the sun because these are longer lasting and more powerful. Everything in creation has a degree of perfection as well as imperfection... Yin Yang. The corruption that always has been and always will be in the church, does not mean that clerical celibacy was instituted to direct money to Rome. That is a very strange twist to history. In the early times, yes the church and the state were much more connected. But, this was a plus sometimes... like when Rome was overrun by the barbarians, and the church was the only institution left to provide any stability. A quick review of world history written by historians that were not revisionist Catholics nor other revisionists can show that the church tried to help with stability most of the time and for the good of the people. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:16:04 -0500 From: "McMillan Brad" Subject: Re: Tragedy at Red Lake High School (njc) I don't hunt, but I target shoot. I know hunters. (I once had Bambi's brother in the crosshairs and when he turned his head, I swore he was looking straight at me, so I sent the bullet between his antlers about four inches above his forehead.) Hunters think of it the way I look at fishing. Some may think that is inhuman too. It's not supposed to be "fair", it's supposed to harken back to yesteryear, when hunting was a necessity of survival. The hunters I know either actually use the butchered meat from their kill or donate it where it will be used to feed hungry people. I live on the edge of a state park. Last year, the state had a shooting contest, the winners of which were permitted to hunt in the park for one day. Why? To thin the herd of wild deer that populate the park and had almost bred themselves to extinction. The park cannot support them all and they had grown weak and sickly. This year, the deer are much larger. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lori Fye" To: "vince" Cc: Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 2:27 PM Subject: Re: Tragedy at Red Lake High School (njc) > Chiming in late here ... > > Vince wrote: > > > Many parts of this country, hunting is a regular activity and kids hunt. > > But the question is, WHY? Do they not get enough to eat? No grocery > stores in their neck of the woods? Where is the fairness in shooting > an unarmed animal? > > Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:17:44 -0500 From: "McMillan Brad" Subject: Re: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time Walt; You said: "We're all bozos on this bus." Isn't that Firesign Theatre? - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 3:18 PM Subject: Re: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time > Hi, Maggie -- I can't wqit to get my hands on that book -- it sounds wonderful. All my life, I've known people -- we've all known people, who aren't stupid -- they mayt even get all A's -- but who don't seem to "get" other people. (Believe me, I've roomed with a couple of them.) Most people know of autism largely or exclusively through the movie Rain Man, which is an excellent protrayal of about 1% of all people with autism. ("High functioning".) I personally beleive that, as with everything else (including synesythesia, the ability or compulsion to see/hear/etc. one sense in terms of anothers -- "That chord sounds blue." -- and, of course, sexuality), there is no either-or, but a spectrum, possibly a multidimentional one, of all human behaviors. The trick is to be interested without condescension or fear, to be helpful where possible, and above all, to be accepting -- something I'm willing to bet the book teaches. > > We're all bozos on this bus. > > love, > > walt > > -- > Let the walls go tumbling down > Falling on the ground > And all the dogs go running free > The wild and gentle dogs > Kenneled in me ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:56:00 -0500 From: vince Subject: bozos njc well of course it is, twas the name of an album in fact there are many memories of my younger son (my Marine kid) with that line - Vince McMillan Brad wrote: >Walt; >You said: >"We're all bozos on this bus." > >Isn't that Firesign Theatre? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:01:50 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: condoms and AIDS, njc LCStanley7@aol.com said: > I've always heard from the Catholic church that it is ultimately up > to > the married couple's conscience to decide about birth control. The > church > gives guidance through statements and suggestions but doesn't decide for > people. > Nor does it condemn people for their choices. Sorry to disagree with you Laura, but from www.catholic.com: The Church has always maintained the historic Christian teaching that deliberate acts of contraception are always gravely sinful, which means that it is mortally sinful if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent (CCC 1857). This teaching cannot be changed and has been taught by the Church infallibly. There is no way to deny the fact that the Church has always and everywhere condemned artificial contraception. The matter has already been infallibly decided. The so-called "individual conscience" argument amounts to "individual disobedience." NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors. Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004 IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827 permission to publish this work is hereby granted. +Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:26:51 -0800 (PST) From: hell Subject: Paul Hester (Crowded House) found dead in park NJC Paul Hester, the drummer from Split Enz and Crowded House, was found dead on Sunday night. Read the story here: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=100&ObjectID=10117547 Hell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:35:05 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: condoms and AIDS, njc _LCStanley7@aol.com_ (mailto:LCStanley7@aol.com) said: > I've always heard from the Catholic church that it is ultimately up > to > the married couple's conscience to decide about birth control. The > church > gives guidance through statements and suggestions but doesn't decide for > people. > Nor does it condemn people for their choices. Sorry to disagree with you Laura, but from www.catholic.com: The Church has always maintained the historic Christian teaching that deliberate acts of contraception are always gravely sinful, which means that it is mortally sinful if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent (CCC 1857). This teaching cannot be changed and has been taught by the Church infallibly. Hi Jerry, This isn't contrary to what I've said. "Gravely sinful" and "mortally sinful" doesn't mean the church condemns the soul but rather according to the church means the soul is in grave danger. The church doesn't know forsure and doesn't state who is going to hell, if anybody. The so-called "individual conscience" argument amounts to "individual disobedience." It could, but what is omitted here is 'not in every case.' NIHIL OBSTAT This means not contrary to church teaching but doesn't mean it IS church teaching. IMPRIMATUR This simply means permission to print or publish. Together, NIHL OBSTAT and the IMPRIMATUR are meant as a comfort to a Catholic reader that the church has reviewed what is written and approves of them on some level. These stamps do not mean what is printed is actually church teaching. Fiction could have these stamps on them. I've had to deal with these things myself as a Catholic and bet my soul on what I've said here. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:52:00 +0000 From: LittleBreen@comcast.net Subject: Re: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time Brad asked: <> You betcha -- I've always liked that line. honk, honk! Walt - -- Let the walls go tumbling down Falling on the ground And all the dogs go running free The wild and gentle dogs Kenneled in me > Walt; > You said: > "We're all bozos on this bus." > > Isn't that Firesign Theatre? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: ; > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 3:18 PM > Subject: Re: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time > > > > Hi, Maggie -- I can't wqit to get my hands on that book -- it sounds > wonderful. All my life, I've known people -- we've all known people, who > aren't stupid -- they mayt even get all A's -- but who don't seem to "get" > other people. (Believe me, I've roomed with a couple of them.) Most people > know of autism largely or exclusively through the movie Rain Man, which is > an excellent protrayal of about 1% of all people with autism. ("High > functioning".) I personally beleive that, as with everything else > (including synesythesia, the ability or compulsion to see/hear/etc. one > sense in terms of anothers -- "That chord sounds blue." -- and, of course, > sexuality), there is no either-or, but a spectrum, possibly a > multidimentional one, of all human behaviors. The trick is to be interested > without condescension or fear, to be helpful where possible, and above all, > to be accepting -- something I'm willing to bet the book teaches. > > > > We're all bozos on this bus. > > > > love, > > > > walt > > > > -- > > Let the walls go tumbling down > > Falling on the ground > > And all the dogs go running free > > The wild and gentle dogs > > Kenneled in me ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:34:47 -0800 (PST) From: hell Subject: Re: Tragedy at Red Lake High School (njc) Lori wrote: > But the question is, WHY? Do they not get enough to eat? No grocery > stores in their neck of the woods? Where is the fairness in shooting > an unarmed animal? There are other reasons for hunting animals other than for sport. I support hunting in NZ where it's used to thin out populations of introduced species of possums and deer, which are not only out of control, but seriously threaten the survival of our native and/or endemic species of both plants and animals. Possums in particular have wreaked havoc on our native forests and bird populations, and massive poison drops have been carried out in an effort to curtail their population growth. There has been some increase in the use of possum fur (separated from the skin) in knitted garments, etc., but it's not enough. Hunters can not only sell possum pelts, but many also eat venison and pork (from wild pigs). I would liken it to fishing in some ways, and while I don't "need" to fish to survive, there's something very satisfying about catching your own dinner, and it's certainly considerably cheaper than buying it in the store (where fresh snapper fillets are $28.00 a kilo).... Having said that, I do not in any way support the use of hand guns - which is a different matter entirely. I don't know of any other use of hand guns other than target shooting or defense, ie. killing other people. Hand guns are illegal in NZ, and the crime rate reflects it - where a single shooting incident will often be national headline news. Hell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:55:29 -0500 From: vince Subject: Hunting (njc) Lori Fye wrote: >Chiming in late here ... > >Vince wrote: > > >>Many parts of this country, hunting is a regular activity and kids hunt. >> >> > >But the question is, WHY? Do they not get enough to eat? No grocery >stores in their neck of the woods? Where is the fairness in shooting >an unarmed animal? > >Lori > > I am *not* the defender of hunting by any means. Disclaimer: I did hunt pheasants once and the only bird taken was flushed and grabbed by the dog (which was damn good work by the dog). I will never hunt again, I just did it once to see what it was about. I moved to western Michigan with all the Chicago/urban disdain for hunting one can have. But I understand it differently having lived in hunting world since 1975. In rural Michigan, as well as in rural Minnesota which I also know somewhat, and I presume other places, there are people who hunt to eat. There are the very few who do all of their eating from what they garner, but for a number of folks it is an important supplement to get to minimum or above minimum nutrition. Rural America is a poverty area. For others, for most, it is a important part of the diet. A well processed deer can keep a family in meat all winter. And since the wage scale is not very high in rural America, that is important. A lot of folks like the taste of venison and game just like other folks like whatever they like. I do not venison, and I do not like game. But I didn't grow up on it and many folks out here love it. Hunting season is as big a gourmet/communal event in the lives of some people as any other food or beverage season can be. I have a good friend who loves squirrel. There is nothing so gross to me as a freezer full of squirrel. It is also a part of some people's culture. Having grown up in Chicago, I understand slaughtering of animals for meat. And hunters out here think a lot of anti-hunters and non-hunters have a huge disconnect between the meat in the supermarket or restaurant of fast food franchise and how it got there. To me - now - it is simply a matter of choice. I don't do the hunting thing and others to and it is a value or moral thing, just a thing like liking Joni or baseball or opera or NASCAR or whatever. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:58:06 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: condoms and AIDS, njc I disagree. I spent 17 years in Catholic schools. Catholic Doctrine defines: Mortal sin is actual sin that destroys sanctifying grace and causes the supernatural death of the soul. Objectively speaking, a sinner who passes into eternity in a state of mortal sin sends himself to hell . That sounds like condemnation to me. And as for birth control, unless you deny the infallibility of the Pope: In Humanae Vitae , Pope Paul VI stated, "[W]e must once again declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun, and, above all, directly willed and procured abortion, even if for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as licit means of regulating birth. Equally to be excluded, as the teaching authority of the Church has frequently declared, is direct sterilization, whether perpetual or temporary, whether of the man or of the woman. Similarly excluded is every action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (HV 14). This was reiterated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church : "[E]very action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible is intrinsically evil" (CCC 2370). "Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means . . . for example, direct sterilization or contraception" (CCC 2399). The Church also has affirmed that the illicitness of contraception is an infallible doctrine: "The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life" ( Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, Feb. 12, 1997). LCStanley7@aol.com said: > _LCStanley7@aol.com_ (mailto:LCStanley7@aol.com) said: > >> I've always heard from the Catholic church that it is ultimately >> up >> to >> the married couple's conscience to decide about birth control. The >> church >> gives guidance through statements and suggestions but doesn't decide >> for >> people. >> Nor does it condemn people for their choices. > > Sorry to disagree with you Laura, but from www.catholic.com: > > The Church has always maintained the historic Christian teaching that > deliberate acts of contraception are always gravely sinful, which means > that it is mortally sinful if done with full knowledge and deliberate > consent (CCC 1857). This teaching cannot be changed and has been taught > by > the Church infallibly. > Hi Jerry, > > This isn't contrary to what I've said. "Gravely sinful" and > "mortally > sinful" doesn't mean the church condemns the soul but rather according to > the > church means the soul is in grave danger. The church doesn't know > forsure > and doesn't state who is going to hell, if anybody. > > The so-called "individual conscience" argument amounts to "individual > disobedience." > It could, but what is omitted here is 'not in every case.' > > NIHIL OBSTAT > > This means not contrary to church teaching but doesn't mean it IS > church > teaching. > > IMPRIMATUR > This simply means permission to print or publish. > > Together, NIHL OBSTAT and the IMPRIMATUR are meant as a comfort to a > Catholic reader that the church has reviewed what is written and approves > of > them on some level. These stamps do not mean what is printed is actually > church > teaching. Fiction could have these stamps on them. > > I've had to deal with these things myself as a Catholic and bet my > soul > on what I've said here. > > Love, > Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:08:47 -0500 From: vince Subject: njc Carnivale - Deadwood anyone watch these two shows besides me? Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:17:08 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: bozos njc The FT also did "The Bozo Song" in 1980 which goes, in part Everyone's a bozo on this bus Zips and beaners sitting next to us Are you a hostage? Are you a spy? Or just some berserko who's prepared to die vince wrote: > well of course it is, twas the name of an album in fact > > there are many memories of my younger son (my Marine kid) with that line - > > Vince > > McMillan Brad wrote: > > >Walt; > >You said: > >"We're all bozos on this bus." > > > >Isn't that Firesign Theatre? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:30:18 -0800 (PST) From: mags h Subject: Re: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time NJC i guarantee, you will never look at the colour yellow the same way, ever. M. LittleBreen@comcast.net wrote: Brad asked: > You betcha -- I've always liked that line. honk, honk! Walt - -- Let the walls go tumbling down Falling on the ground And all the dogs go running free The wild and gentle dogs Kenneled in me > Walt; > You said: > "We're all bozos on this bus." > > Isn't that Firesign Theatre? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: ; > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 3:18 PM > Subject: Re: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time > > > > Hi, Maggie -- I can't wqit to get my hands on that book -- it sounds > wonderful. All my life, I've known people -- we've all known people, who > aren't stupid -- they mayt even get all A's -- but who don't seem to "get" > other people. (Believe me, I've roomed with a couple of them.) Most people > know of autism largely or exclusively through the movie Rain Man, which is > an excellent protrayal of about 1% of all people with autism. ("High > functioning".) I personally beleive that, as with everything else > (including synesythesia, the ability or compulsion to see/hear/etc. one > sense in terms of anothers -- "That chord sounds blue." -- and, of course, > sexuality), there is no either-or, but a spectrum, possibly a > multidimentional one, of all human behaviors. The trick is to be interested > without condescension or fear, to be helpful where possible, and above all, > to be accepting -- something I'm willing to bet the book teaches. > > > > We're all bozos on this bus. > > > > love, > > > > walt > > > > -- > > Let the walls go tumbling down > > Falling on the ground > > And all the dogs go running free > > The wild and gentle dogs > > Kenneled in me Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:58:26 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: condoms and AIDS, njc LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: The church doesn't know forsure and doesn't state who is going to hell, if anybody. Together, NIHL OBSTAT and the IMPRIMATUR are meant as a comfort to a Catholic reader that the church has reviewed what is written and approves of them on some level. These stamps do not mean what is printed is actually church teaching. Now me: Wow, does this go for premarital sex too? Lordy, I could have saved myself half a lifetime of guilt and angst and shame if they had let us know these weren't actual teachings, lol. Laura, it sounds like you've done a lot of study of Catholicism as an adult and that's given you an opportunity to explore the faith in ways I certainly was never afforded. I think I'm the norm though when I say it was made very clear to me use of birth control was a mortal sin and that this was a church teaching. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying this is the message that was getting through. Maybe it's different nowadays. I'm recovering Catholic myself and haven't practiced in quite some time. I knew a good number of people *would* have premarital sex, but NOT use birth control because it was a mortal sin. Gotta love that logic. One out of two ain't bad, right? Jenny Make Yahoo! your home page ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:55:57 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time NJC Isn't that the Firesign Theater album with, "Follow the rubber yellow line to your seat." Although my favorite line on that particular record is actually: "In the Beginning was this Turtle." I have to add my recommendation about "Curious Incident"--it's really great. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of mags h Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 8:30 PM To: LittleBreen@comcast.net; McMillan Brad Cc: messling@enter.net; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time NJC i guarantee, you will never look at the colour yellow the same way, ever. M. LittleBreen@comcast.net wrote: Brad asked: > You betcha -- I've always liked that line. honk, honk! Walt - -- Let the walls go tumbling down Falling on the ground And all the dogs go running free The wild and gentle dogs Kenneled in me > Walt; > You said: > "We're all bozos on this bus." > > Isn't that Firesign Theatre? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: ; > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 3:18 PM > Subject: Re: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time > > > > Hi, Maggie -- I can't wqit to get my hands on that book -- it sounds > wonderful. All my life, I've known people -- we've all known people, who > aren't stupid -- they mayt even get all A's -- but who don't seem to "get" > other people. (Believe me, I've roomed with a couple of them.) Most people > know of autism largely or exclusively through the movie Rain Man, which is > an excellent protrayal of about 1% of all people with autism. ("High > functioning".) I personally beleive that, as with everything else > (including synesythesia, the ability or compulsion to see/hear/etc. one > sense in terms of anothers -- "That chord sounds blue." -- and, of course, > sexuality), there is no either-or, but a spectrum, possibly a > multidimentional one, of all human behaviors. The trick is to be interested > without condescension or fear, to be helpful where possible, and above all, > to be accepting -- something I'm willing to bet the book teaches. > > > > We're all bozos on this bus. > > > > love, > > > > walt > > > > -- > > Let the walls go tumbling down > > Falling on the ground > > And all the dogs go running free > > The wild and gentle dogs > > Kenneled in me Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:23:41 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Paul Hester (Crowded House) found dead in park NJC - --- hell wrote: > Paul Hester, the drummer from Split Enz and Crowded > House, was found dead on > Sunday night. Read the story here: > > http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=100&ObjectID=10117547 > > > Hell > Yeah, I read that. That's sad news. I enjoyed their music. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2005 #140 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)