From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2005 #136 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, March 25 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 136 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Enough Schiavo already (njc) [Randy Remote ] who agenda is it anyway njc [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: Paprika Plains, the remix 100% JC, now 99.99999% JC ["Lama, Jim L'Hom] Randall Terry on Fox njc [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] nothing but Joni stories ... or whatever else you want [Smurf ] Re: Randall Terry on Fox njc [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: Pope, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2005 #135 [JSerkes@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2005 #135 [JSerkes@aol.com] Re: The Head Cabbage in a Persistent Vegetative State (njc) [Bob Muller <] RE: The Head Cabbage in a Persistent Vegetative State (njc) ["Richard Fly] insights into the family njc [vince ] Re: The Head Cabbage in a Persistent Vegetative State (njc) [littlebreen@] Re: Paprika Plains, the remix 100% JC, now 99.99999% JC [Reuben Bell Subject: Re: Enough Schiavo already (njc) Sensational "family values" or celebrity story = High ratings, votes Poverty, disease story (unless sensational like avian flu, tsunami): = low ratings, no votes Lower ratings: less Ford, Budweiser $ from ads = smaller yacht for CEO Lower votes = must get real job Michael O'Malley wrote: > I'm sorry, but I really don't see why we're getting all wound up around this > Schiavo story. What exactly is a human life worth? Aside from the violence > and warfare on this planet, every year we let die 10.6 million of the > world's children under the age of 5, primarily from diseases such as > pneumonia, diarrhea, and malaria. On average, 205 children die every hour > from diarrhea alone (Source: Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public > Health, Baltimore MD.). That's about 3 children per minute, just from > diarrhea. Think about it. Where is the political will to reduce the poverty, > provide basic nutrition and clean water for the world's children ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:45:13 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: who agenda is it anyway njc I thought I heard this morning that Randall Terry was the spokesperson for Terry Schiavo's parents and that verified everything I have thinking about the parents. They have now linked themselves to a violent hateful person with a political agenda that I find very dangerous. Here is something I just yanked off the web about Randall Terry. Who is Randall Terry? Christian activist Randall Terry has reappeared in the news in recent days as the spokesman for the parents of Terri Schiavo. Terry, founder of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue and the Society for Truth and Justice, appeared on Fox News at least four times in the past four days -- on the March 18 edition of Hannity & Colmes, and during live coverage of the Schiavo case on March 20 and March 21. But Terry has a controversial past that was not fully disclosed in any of his Fox News appearances or on the March 19 edition of National Public Radio's Weekend Edition, which aired a brief clip from Terry. In all but one of those instances, Terry was identified only as the Schindler family spokesman. Only when Terry appeared on a March 21 "Fox News Alert" did another guest -- Fox News contributor and Democratic strategist Susan Estrich -- point out that Terry was "involved in the anti-abortion movement" and with Operation Rescue, which "operated outside the law." On his own website, Terry noted that he "has been arrested over forty times for peaceful opposition to abortion," but he neglected to mention the details of his anti-abortion activities with Operation Rescue in the 1980s and 1990s. In an April 22, 2004, Washington Post article, staff writer Michael Powell summarized some of Terry's anti-abortion actions: In 1988, Terry and his legions started standing in front of local abortion clinics, screaming and pleading with pregnant women to turn away. They tossed their bodies against car doors to keep abortion patients from getting out. They waved crucifixes and screamed "Mommy, Mommy" at the women. When Terry commanded, hundreds went jellyfish-limp and blockaded the "death clinics." In 1989, a "Holy Week of Rescue" shut down a family planning clinic in Los Angeles. More than 40,000 people were arrested in these demonstrations over four years. Subtlety wasn't Terry's thing -- he described Planned Parenthood's founder, Margaret Sanger, as a "whore" and an "adulteress" and arranged to have a dead fetus presented to Bill Clinton at the 1992 Democratic National Convention. Additional evidence suggests that actions by Terry and Operation Rescue may have provoked violence at abortion clinics. As the New York Times reported on July 20, 2001, "One of his [Terry's] most avid followers in Binghamton was James E. [sic: C.] Kopp, now charged in the 1998 murder of a doctor who performed abortions in Buffalo [New York]." Kopp was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. A November 6, 1998, Times report further detailed Terry's connection to Kopp: In July 1988, when Randall Terry drove through the night from his home in Binghamton, N.Y., to Atlanta to start the series of anti-abortion protests that would finally put his new hard-line group, Operation Rescue, onto America's front pages, James Charles Kopp was in the van riding alongside him, said former leaders of Operation Rescue. And when Mr. Terry was arrested on the first day of Operation Rescue's "Siege of Atlanta," Mr. Kopp followed him into jail, said the leaders, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Along with more than 100 other Operation Rescue members, according to some people who were there, Mr. Kopp remained in jail for 40 days and adhered to Mr. Terry's orders not to give a real name to the police or courts. After his release, Mr. Kopp returned to Operation Rescue's Binghamton headquarters, and was there working alongside Mr. Terry as the group's power and influence in the anti-abortion movement surged in late 1988 and 1989, according to the former leaders of Operation Rescue. Further, the Miami Herald reported on March 20 that Operation Rescue's "sympathizers continue to make an impact, some serving for the Bush administration." As CNN noted on March 4, 1998, Terry was named in a lawsuit -- seeking to "force anti-abortion leaders to pay for damages caused in clinic attacks" -- which was filed by the National Organization for Women (NOW) under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act, and Terry settled with NOW out of court. The New York Times reported on November 8, 1998, that Terry "filed for bankruptcy last week in an effort to avoid paying massive debts owed to women's groups and abortion clinics that have sued him." As the Los Angeles Times reported on February 28, Terry's use of bankruptcy law to avoid paying for the judgments against him helped prompt Senator Charles E. Schumer (D-NY) to propose an amendment to the bankruptcy bill recently passed by Congress that "specifically would prevent abortion opponents from using the bankruptcy code to escape paying court fines," although it was not included in the final version of the bill. Versions of that amendment appeared in earlier versions of the bankruptcy bill, which stalled action on it in 2002 and 2003 when "a core of House Republicans balked" at the provision, the Los Angeles Times noted. According to a June 14, 2003, report by the conservative World Magazine (no longer available online, but reprinted on the right-wing bulletin board Free Republic), Terry solicited donations by declaring on his website that "The purveyors of abortion on demand have stripped Randall Terry of everything he owned," but failed to disclose that the money would be used to pay for his new $432,000 house. The report noted Terry's defense: "Terry told World that he wanted a home where his family will be safe and where 'we could entertain people of stature, people of importance. I have a lot of important people that come through my home. And I will have more important people come through my home.' " World noted that the same month he paid the deposit on his new home, a court ruled that Terry, who divorced his first wife and has remarried, "was not paying a fair share of child support." In an article on his website, Terry denounced the World report as "journalistic trash, a 'hit piece' of malice and misinformation." Terry's words and personal life have also stirred controversy. As the Fort Wayne (Indiana) News Sentinel reported on August 16, 1993, at an anti-abortion rally in Fort Wayne, Terry said "Our goal is a Christian nation. ... We have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism. ... Theocracy means God rules. I've got a hot flash. God rules." In that same speech, Terry also stated that "If a Christian voted for [former President Bill] Clinton, he sinned against God. It's that simple." According to a March 18, 2004, press release, Terry declared on his radio program that "Islam dictates followers use killing and terror to convert Western infidels." As The Washington Post reported on February 12, 2000, in his 1995 book The Judgment of God Terry wrote that "homosexuals and lesbians are no longer content to secretly live in sin, but now want to glorify their perversions." In a May 25, 2004, interview about his gay son with The Advocate, Terry stated that homosexuality is a "sexual addiction" that shouldn't be rewarded with "special civil rights." According to the February 12, 2000, Washington Post report, Terry was censured by his church, the Landmark Church of Binghamton, New York, for a "pattern of repeated and sinful relationships and conversations with both single and married women." Terry denies the accusation. - -- http://www.southsiders.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:48:59 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Paprika Plains, the remix 100% JC, now 99.99999% JC Hmmm. Yes. That's deep. Indeed. You get the "Julie Z. Webb Memorial Award for Literature". Here's your gold-plated copy of the "Hejira" CD, on a scarlet, velvet, neck band. Your alums (to date) are: Deb Messling, Richard Flynn, Jenny Goodspeed, Laura Stanley, Kakki, Patrick Leader, Bob Sartorius, & Em. And you know there may be more... At least 1/2 serious, Jim PS, Les Irvin is a provisional alum because he appreciates Dylan and should write more. RR and Muller are on probation for taking so many swipes at the compilations. Catherine McKay wrote: > I like that the "missing" passage is just in the > lyrics sheet and not sung. It makes the whole thing > interactive or multisensory (you hear the music and > the sung words, you look at the pictures, you read the > words and conjure up images in your head). You can > read it to yourself while the orchestral interlude is > playing. In a strange way, I think it helps you > recognize that it's not just the words in the song, > but the way of life, that is missing. > > NP Gemma Hayes: Today I ran for miles > Catherine > Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:50:10 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Randall Terry on Fox njc Radical Christian, Anti-Gay Activist and Schiavo Spokesperson Randall TerryJokes About Being Homosexual Randall Terry, spokesperson for the Schindler family, was a guest on Alan Colmes' radio program last night as a follow-up to his aborted (pun intended) interview the night before on Hannity & Colmes. Colmes confronted Terry about his irrational statements about Terri Schiavo and about his past as a radical anti-abortion crusader. I found Terry's answers inconsistent and bizarre, especially when this supposed ultra-Christian made a joke about being Colmes' homosexual lover. Colmes opened the interview by asking Terry about the latest appeal of the Schindler family. Terry rejected the findings made by umpteen judges that Terri Schiavo is in an unrecoverable, persistent vegetative state. He spoke about a doctor who claims Terri Schiavo "complained verbally" when a stick was pushed on her back by Dr. William Hammesfahr (a doctor who claims he can treat Terri Schiavo). Colmes pointed out that doctors have previously said on Colmes' program that making moaning noises is consistent with someone in a persistent vegetative state. Randall responded by trying to discredit the doctors who did examine her and playing up the quite dubious reputation of Dr. Hammesfahr. Terry said, "The people that did examine her - two of 'em were hired. The other one was appointed by the court. And none of them, NONE treat these type of patients... Dr. Hammesfahr treats these patients." Colmes quickly said that Dr. Hammesfahr's "credibility is of great question" and pointed out, among other things, Dr. Hammesfahr's false claim to have been nominated for a Nobel prize. Terry didn't deny Hammesfahr's false Nobel claim but insisted Hammesfahr is "a genius" who is the victim of a smear campaign (comment: as if one was needed!). Terry said, "There are people here - on the site tonight... family members are bringing their handicapped children who are now talking and moving who weren't before they had Dr. Hammesfahr's treatment." Colmes: You know as well as I do he could not provide to the court when he was asked by Judge Greer to name case histories, to name people in similar situations who've been cured - he couldn't do it... That's what Greer's decision says." Terry: Alan, he had 50 people in the court who traveled here at their own expense who had been treated by him and had become much better than they were and Judge Greer would not listen to one... Colmes quoted from Greer's decision that there was a "total absence of supporting case studies or medical literature suggesting therapies could be useful." The judge said that Hammesfahr testified that he treated patients worse off than Mrs. Schiavo but offered no case studies, no videos, no test results. Terry didn't deny that. He said, "(Hammesfahr) had 50 people in the court and (Judge Greer) wouldn't let them talk." From there, Colmes moved on to Terry's radical past. Referring to a story about Terry on 60 Minutes, Colmes asked, "Did you pray for the execution of an abortion doctor." Terry: No... The bottom line is, I never said it. Colmes then read a quote from a New York Times article dated 8/14/93. "I hope some day he's tried for crimes against humanity and I hope he's executed." Terry: I did say that, absolutely. I don't feel that way any more. Colmes: You promote the culture of life, you're promoting the culture of life in this case, you call yourself pro-life and you're calling for the execution of an abortion doctor. Terry said that at the time, he looked at it like a Nuremburg trial where you could be guilty of a crime even if you weren't breaking the law. But he doesn't feel that way any more. Terry interrupted the questioning (and neatly tried to change the subject) by asking Colmes, "Are you drinking Red Bull... You're like on drugs... Are you snorting coke? I think that it's time that you and I just admit to the whole world that's listening that we used to be homosexual lovers, we had a fight and now you're... Colmes (interrupting): I know you're attracted to me, and I understand you're vehemently anti gay, you've spoken out against... and yet you have a gay son, from what I understand, don't you? Terry (humbly): Yes, very heart-wrenching. At the break, Terry he said he could not stay any longer. Colmes, sounding disappointed, asked if it was something he said. Terry: No, not at all, but I'm looking forward to us... Never mind, I just want to have that beer with you some time when you're not so wired. Comment: What kind of radical Christian makes jokes about having a homosexual relationship with someone - on national radio? There's plenty in Randall Terry's past that also doesn't quite match his religiosity. According to mediamatters.org, there are reports that Terry "was not paying a fair share of child support" and "he was censured by his church, the Landmark Church of Binghamton, New York, for a 'pattern of repeated and sinful relationships and conversations with both single and married women.'" With all the attention on the Schiavo case and the villification of Michael Schiavo, why isn't the "liberal media" putting more of a spotlight on this spokesperson. My heat goes out to the Schindler family but I think their spokesman deserves some real scrutiny. - -- http://www.southsiders.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:51:25 -0800 (PST) From: Smurf Subject: nothing but Joni stories ... or whatever else you want It's new! Check it out: http://www.topix.net/who/joni-mitchell Or just go to << http://www.topix.net >> and put in any subject you'd like to spend eons reading about. You can get news for your own city, too. This was sent to me by the president of my senior class in high school, so you know it comes with the Smurf hometown seal of approval. << http://www.topix.net/city/belmont-ma >> - --Smurf __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:54:30 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Randall Terry on Fox njc I can't tell you what it feels like to see and hear him every day on all of our local news channels. Jerry > Radical Christian, Anti-Gay Activist and Schiavo Spokesperson Randall > TerryJokes About Being Homosexual > Randall Terry, spokesperson for the Schindler family, was a guest on Alan > Colmes' radio program last night as a follow-up to his aborted (pun intended) > interview the night before on Hannity & Colmes. Colmes confronted Terry about > his irrational statements about Terri Schiavo and about his past as a radical > anti-abortion crusader. I found Terry's answers inconsistent and bizarre, > especially when this supposed ultra-Christian made a joke about being Colmes' > homosexual lover. > Colmes opened the interview by asking Terry about the latest appeal of the > Schindler family. Terry rejected the findings made by umpteen judges that > Terri Schiavo is in an unrecoverable, persistent vegetative state. He spoke > about a doctor who claims Terri Schiavo "complained verbally" when a stick was > pushed on her back by Dr. William Hammesfahr (a doctor who claims he can treat > Terri Schiavo). > Colmes pointed out that doctors have previously said on Colmes' program that > making moaning noises is consistent with someone in a persistent vegetative > state. > Randall responded by trying to discredit the doctors who did examine her and > playing up the quite dubious reputation of Dr. Hammesfahr. Terry said, "The > people that did examine her - two of 'em were hired. The other one was > appointed by the court. And none of them, NONE treat these type of patients... > Dr. Hammesfahr treats these patients." > Colmes quickly said that Dr. Hammesfahr's "credibility is of great question" > and pointed out, among other things, Dr. Hammesfahr's false claim to have been > nominated for a Nobel prize. > Terry didn't deny Hammesfahr's false Nobel claim but insisted Hammesfahr is "a > genius" who is the victim of a smear campaign (comment: as if one was > needed!). Terry said, "There are people here - on the site tonight... family > members are bringing their handicapped children who are now talking and moving > who weren't before they had Dr. Hammesfahr's treatment." > Colmes: You know as well as I do he could not provide to the court when he was > asked by Judge Greer to name case histories, to name people in similar > situations who've been cured - he couldn't do it... That's what Greer's > decision says." > Terry: Alan, he had 50 people in the court who traveled here at their own > expense who had been treated by him and had become much better than they were > and Judge Greer would not listen to one... > Colmes quoted from Greer's decision that there was a "total absence of > supporting case studies or medical literature suggesting therapies could be > useful." The judge said that Hammesfahr testified that he treated patients > worse off than Mrs. Schiavo but offered no case studies, no videos, no test > results. > Terry didn't deny that. He said, "(Hammesfahr) had 50 people in the court and > (Judge Greer) wouldn't let them talk." > From there, Colmes moved on to Terry's radical past. Referring to a story > about Terry on 60 Minutes, Colmes asked, "Did you pray for the execution of an > abortion doctor." > Terry: No... The bottom line is, I never said it. > Colmes then read a quote from a New York Times article dated 8/14/93. "I hope > some day he's tried for crimes against humanity and I hope he's executed." > Terry: I did say that, absolutely. I don't feel that way any more. > Colmes: You promote the culture of life, you're promoting the culture of life > in this case, you call yourself pro-life and you're calling for the execution > of an abortion doctor. > Terry said that at the time, he looked at it like a Nuremburg trial where you > could be guilty of a crime even if you weren't breaking the law. But he > doesn't feel that way any more. > Terry interrupted the questioning (and neatly tried to change the subject) by > asking Colmes, "Are you drinking Red Bull... You're like on drugs... Are you > snorting coke? I think that it's time that you and I just admit to the whole > world that's listening that we used to be homosexual lovers, we had a fight > and now you're... > Colmes (interrupting): I know you're attracted to me, and I understand you're > vehemently anti gay, you've spoken out against... and yet you have a gay son, > from what I understand, don't you? > Terry (humbly): Yes, very heart-wrenching. > At the break, Terry he said he could not stay any longer. Colmes, sounding > disappointed, asked if it was something he said. > Terry: No, not at all, but I'm looking forward to us... Never mind, I just > want to have that beer with you some time when you're not so wired. > Comment: What kind of radical Christian makes jokes about having a homosexual > relationship with someone - on national radio? There's plenty in Randall > Terry's past that also doesn't quite match his religiosity. According to > mediamatters.org, there are reports that Terry "was not paying a fair share of > child support" and "he was censured by his church, the Landmark Church of > Binghamton, New York, for a 'pattern of repeated and sinful relationships and > conversations with both single and married women.'" With all the attention on > the Schiavo case and the villification of Michael Schiavo, why isn't the > "liberal media" putting more of a spotlight on this spokesperson. My heat goes > out to the Schindler family but I think their spokesman deserves some real > scrutiny. > > -- > http://www.southsiders.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:00:51 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: Randall Terry on Fox njc Damn, that must be horrifying. That little evil son of a bitch... Vince - -------------- Original message -------------- > I can't tell you what it feels like to see and hear him every day on all of > our local news channels. > > Jerry > > > Radical Christian, Anti-Gay Activist and Schiavo Spokesperson Randall > > TerryJokes About Being Homosexual > > Randall Terry, spokesperson for the Schindler family, was a guest on Alan > > Colmes' radio program last night as a follow-up to his aborted (pun intended) > > interview the night before on Hannity & Colmes. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:04:46 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Pope, njc Catherine wrote: Yeah, but that wasn't JPII's doing. That was Paul XXIII. Hi Catherine, Catherine... please stop!!! You've got me laughing really good here!!! Paul XXIII?! You mean John XXIII? LOLLLL Maybe it was George or Ringo the XXIIIrd?! Well, anyway, it wasn't any Pope except JPII who has allowed for girl altar servers. His official document came out in 1994 I believe. He put the ultimate decision in the hands of particular Bishops though. Our Bishop allows it... thank God! It was not Yet, not that long ago, there were STILL bishops and individuals that wanted to dispense with female alter servers, lectors and ministers of the Eucharist. Yeah, not that long ago, like just last second. There are still people who object to this. I think this has a lot to do with why change in the Catholic church occurs so slowly... the church is truly catholic, universal, which means it has to accommodate or have a place for all people regardless of how they might disagree. Do you remember when women *had* to wear hats to church? Oh yeah and when the Mass was in Latin and the priest had his back to us. I still have my gradeschool beanie we use to wear to Mass. I have friends who within the past 10 years or so have begun wearing hats to Mass again. Whatever... I don't have any interest in doing that and have told them so. You're a few years younger than me, I'm 45 years old. June 25, 1959. if we didn't have a hat, we'd pin a piece of toilet paper to our hair! I wear a head band a lot and told my headcover crazed friends that was my headcovering. They didn't like that. I told them if they ought to wear a head covering they didn't like if they were truly doing it as an act of submission. I suggested sand or ashes or a flamboyant hat. Historically, according to my Bishop friend, the church quit supporting or encouraging women from wearing head coverings because it became more of a fashion show rather than sometime truly spiritual. One of my very close friends who wears a hat to Mass told me she does so "for the sake of the angels." She's the only one I know of who seems to understand the scriptures about headcoverings (1 Cor. 11:10) and doesn't twist the submission scriptures into prejudice scriptures. A leader of an integrated Catholic community told women in the community who wanted to wear headcoverings and were not supported by him in doing so that if they were going to wear headcoverings, they ought to be quiet in church matters because the same group of legalistic scriptures gives that guideline with regard to women in the assembly. These kinds of things in the scripture are cultural and don't apply to our current culture. There are underlying spiritual messages that can be found in them that do apply and have become very beautiful artful jestures during the Mass. For instance, a Bishop wears a headcovering in Mass during the liturgy of the Word giving him the appearance of a woman. He takes off the headcovering when the liturgy of the Eucharist, giving him the appearance of a man. This is done because during the liturgy of the Word, he represents the people of the Church, female although both men and women. When he takes his headcovering off, he gives the visual image of the male component of the Church, Jesus, the Groom. Something else that is really artistic in the Mass is the garment the priest wears... for all practical purposes, a dress. Liturgical cross-dressing has always fascinated me. And, the more seemingly "traditional" the priests are, the more often they wear dresses even when they aren't at Mass. We have some Tridentine priests at our parish, and I've never seen them in pants. Even when I saw them in the grocery store, the were in their black dresses. I guess macho isn't cool when they are trying to represent the Church which in liturgical art is a woman. Isn't it interesting how when male priests wear dresses, it is okay and reverenced, but if any other man wears a dress to Mass, he at best would get stared at and at worse would get kicked out? Human viewpoints fascinate me. Yeah, but they're already married before they become priests. There is an Eastern branch of Catholicism that allows priests to marry. I can't think of the name of it, but it is in full Communion with Rome. My Dad was a deacon. Cool. My Mum got pissed off at him that he signed up for this, without consulting her first, Wow. This would have never happened today because the wives of deacons have to go through the whole diaconate program with their husbands. They have to take the same classes and everything. Today, they must be a team or ordination is not possible. Dad met a woman and they wanted to get married. Even though he had retired from the diaconate, he had to have his vows dissolved/absolved/whatevah by the Pope himself. Most likely this was a dispensation from his duties as a deacon so he wasn't bound and could marry. But, his ordination was not dissolved nor could it be dissolved... once ordained, always ordained. The reason for making priests be celibate had something to do with the bad behaviours of some priests during (when?) the middle ages(?), but it didn't stop the baddies from being bad In my understanding, it was to more fully live out the scriptures relating to Jesus' lifestyle and that which St. Paul encouraged. No doubt there were some practical matters involved also. In any case, I hope the next Pope is a liberal, but I highly doubt we'll see that happen any time soon, given the current climate. I would predict that the next Pope will be liberal, liberal in a way that we Americans can't even imagine. I am hoping the successor of the Pope will be a particular Cardinal from India... Cardinal Vithayathil. He has relatives here in Arkansas and is really awesome. I see his sister often at daily Mass at the cathedral here. Good things are coming! Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:41:49 EST From: JSerkes@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2005 #135 OK my two cents and sense. This discussion should be about what happens to women when the starve themselves. Terri got this way through an eating disorder one of the biggest detriments to womankind. She had an eating disorder that was uncaught and swept under the rug. Millions of women everyday, are anorexic or bulimic, and do it for years and years striping their bodies of vital nutrients, creating havoc on their hearts, lungs, livers, kidneys, and throats. That is what this discussion should be about. Her husband says she indicated to him she did not want to live this way had it come up. Well, it did, and he is caring that out. I could care less if he is with another woman or has kids. I could care less.Her parents should be talking about eating disorders and helping young women to stop it, find themselves esteem through other ways besides pleasing the male eye, or society's eye. Women are driven to do this, and learn it way to early. Joni knows it, has written about it cryptically. So, take the focus off her husband, who seems like a decent guy, and do some good here. She deserves more than this. This is inhumane. Death may not be. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:43:16 EST From: JSerkes@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2005 #135 Oh, I initiated the end of my own father's life in 97. It was the most human thing we could do for him. He was miserable. Done in a hospital with narcotics, peaceful and over in less than 24 hours. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:50:54 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: The Head Cabbage in a Persistent Vegetative State (njc) I hear that the Republicans are now pushing for the definition of marriage to be between a man, a woman, her parents, and the US Congress. Bob NP: Wall of Voodoo, "Tse Tse Fly" (going out to my favorite WoV/Stan Ridgway buddy...you know who you are & I LUV ya!) Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:47:57 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: The Head Cabbage in a Persistent Vegetative State (njc) You know I stayed out of this, but this morning's Washington Post story made me extremely angry. While the President has been busy trying to shore up his right-wing nut-job base, by cynically manipulating the Schiavo controversy, the poor people of Red Lake, MN are angry about his silence about the school shooting. This quotation is telling: "From all over the world we are getting letters of condolence, the Red Cross has come, but the so-called Great White Father in Washington hasn't said or done a thing," said Clyde Bellecourt, a Chippewa Indian who is the founder and national director of the American Indian Movement here. "When people's children are murdered and others are in the hospital hanging on to life, he should be the first one to offer his condolences. . . . If this was a white community, I don't think he'd have any problem doing that." I agree that this President is essentially a racist. I really believe this is not hyperbole. He believes in "compassionate conservatism" only for the parents of a white girls in a persistent vegetative state because he's playing to Randall Terry and jerks like the head of the party in Georgia, Ralph Reed--assh*le moral majoritarians newly emboldened in a nation they're all turning into a police state. Atwood's Handmaid's Tale wasn't speculative fiction, it was prophecy. But a public word for the Indians in Red Lake? Just my measured, civil, and carefully considered opinion. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Bob Muller Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 6:51 PM To: David Henderson; littlebreen@comcast.net; Joni Mitchell List Subject: Re: The Head Cabbage in a Persistent Vegetative State (njc) I hear that the Republicans are now pushing for the definition of marriage to be between a man, a woman, her parents, and the US Congress. Bob NP: Wall of Voodoo, "Tse Tse Fly" (going out to my favorite WoV/Stan Ridgway buddy...you know who you are & I LUV ya!) Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:33:09 -0500 From: vince Subject: insights into the family njc from USA Today, today, about the history of the people involved Feud may be as much over money as principle By Larry Copeland and Jill Lawrence, USA TODAY PINELLAS PARK, Fla. -- Michael Schiavo and Bob and Mary Schindler once were very close. He was the husband. They were the in-laws. Their shared joy was Terri, Michael's wife, the Schindlers' daughter. In photos from Terri and Michael's wedding day in 1984 and later, everyone is smiling. The bonds remained strong even after tragedy befell Terri. Early on the morning of Feb. 25, 1990, she suffered a heart attack that led to massive brain damage. Today, Terri Schiavo's agonizing struggle for life -- or death -- grips the nation and much of the world. Driving the sorrowful, sometimes angry rhetoric in this epic clash over the right to live or die is something less cosmic: a vitriolic family feud. It is a feud, to some degree, over principle. Michael Schiavo says Terri should be allowed to die because she told him long before she was stricken that she would never want to be kept alive by a feeding tube or other such measures. The Schindlers say their son-in-law is starving Terri to death. They want to keep her alive and try to rehabiliate her. But it also appears to be a fight over money -- how a $1 million malpractice settlement Schiavo won 13 years ago over Terri's care should be spent. Without that emotional public schism, the Schiavo case might simply have been one of thousands of wrenching family decisions about life and death that unfold quietly every year. What once was a fond relationship -- Michael Schiavo had called the Schindlers "Mom" and "Dad" -- has dissolved into bitter recriminations playing out in courthouses, capitols, weblogs and on Larry King Live. Schiavo says he hasn't talked to his in-laws in years. Some of the protesters gathered outside Woodside Hospice here have demonized Michael Schiavo, accusing him of everything from murder to adultery because he lives with a woman and has two toddlers, a daughter and a son, by her. It wasn't always this way, according to a USA TODAY review of voluminous records in the Probate Division of Pinellas County Circuit Court in nearby Clearwater. Those records show that Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers jointly supervised care for Terri after she collapsed. For the first 16 days and nights that she was hospitalized, Schiavo never left the hospital. Over the next few years, as she was moved from the hospital to a skilled nursing facility, to a nursing home, to Schiavo's home and finally back to a nursing home, Schiavo visited Terri daily. They had met in a class at Bucks County Community College in Pennsylvania. They were engaged five months later and married on Nov. 10, 1984, in Huntingdon Valley, Pa. She was, he said, "sweet. Very personable. You would meet her and just be charmed by her. ... To me, she was everything." Once Terri was unable to help herself, Michael became a demanding advocate. John Pecarek, a court-appointed guardian for Terri, described her husband as "a nursing home administrator's nightmare," adding, "I believe that the ward (Terri) gets care and attention from the staff of Sabal Palms (nursing home) as a result of Mr. Schiavo's advocacy and defending on her behalf." Mary Schindler testified that, while her daughter was at one nursing home, her relationship with her son-in-law was "very good. We did everything together. Wherever he went, I went." Schiavo and the Schindlers even sold pretzels and hot dogs on St. Pete Beach to raise money for Terri's care. But everything seemed to change on Valentine's Day 1993 in a nursing home near here. In 1992, Schiavo had filed a medical malpractice lawsuit against two doctors who had been treating his wife before she was stricken. Late that year came a settlement: Schiavo received $300,000 for loss of consortium -- his wife's companionship. Another $700,000 was ordered for Terri's care. Mary Schindler later testified that Schiavo had promised money to his in-laws. They had helped him and Terri move from New Jersey to Pinellas County, let them live rent-free in their condominium and had given him other financial help. "We all had financial problems" after Terri's crisis, she testified. "Michael, Bob. We all did. It was a very stressful time. It was a very financially difficult time. He used to say, 'Don't worry, Mom. If I ever get any money from the lawsuit, I'll help you and Dad.' " By February 1993, Schiavo had the money from the lawsuit. On Valentine's Day that year, he testified, he was in his wife's nursing home room studying. He wanted to become a nurse so he could care for his wife himself. He had taken Terri to California for experimental treatment. A doctor there had placed a stimulator inside Terri's brain and those of other people in vegetative states to try to stimulate still-living but dormant cells. According to Schiavo's testimony, the Schindlers came into Terri's room in the nursing home, spoke to their daughter, then turned to him. "The first words out of my father-in-law's mouth was how much money he was going to get," Schiavo said. "I was, 'What do you mean?' 'Well, you owe me money.' " Schiavo said he told his in-laws that all the money had gone to his wife - -- a lie he said he told Bob Schindler "to shut him up because he was screaming." Schiavo said his father-in-law called him "a few choice words," then stormed out of the room. Schiavo said he started to follow him, but his mother-in-law stepped in front of him, saying, "This is my daughter, our daughter, and we deserve some of this money." Mary Schindler's account of that evening is far different. She testified that she and her husband found Schiavo studying. "We were talking about the money and about his money," she said. "That with his money and the money Terri got, now we could take her (for specialized care) or get some testing done. Do all this stuff. He said he was not going to do it." She said he threw his book and a table against the wall and told them they would never see their daughter again. A rift beyond repair The accounts of that confrontation came in testimony during a January 2000 hearing on a petition Schiavo filed to discontinue his wife's life support. Pinellas County Circuit Judge George Greer ruled the next month that the feeding tube could be removed. Despite the row over money, Schiavo and the Schindlers agreed on one major point in the 2000 testimony: the extent of Terri's brain damage, according to additional court documents cited by The Miami Herald. In the documents, Pamela Campbell, then the Schindlers' lawyer, told the court that "we do not doubt that she's in a persistent vegetative state." Campbell could not be reached to confirm the statement. At this point, however, the gulf between Schiavo and the Schindlers could not be bridged. "On Feb. 14, 1993, this amicable relationship between the parties was severed," Greer wrote. "While the testimony differs on what may or may not have been promised to whom and by whom, it is clear to this court that such severance was predicated upon money and the fact that Mr. Schiavo was unwilling to equally divide his loss of consortium award with Mr. and Mrs. Schindler." Daniel Grieco, the attorney who handled Michael Schiavo's malpractice case, says his client never promised money to Bob Schindler. He also said Schindler never understood that he wasn't entitled to money under Florida law. Grieco says the money is at the root of the estrangement. "It was the precipitating factor," Grieco says. "That was the fracture. That was the basis of it." Without the acrimony, Terri's life-or-death saga probably would not have become big news, says Steve Mintz, a history professor at the University of Houston who studies families. "There have been similar cases where people have been disconnected, but because they didn't reach the same level of in-law tensions, they didn't evoke such strong feelings," Mintz told the Associated Press. "The subtext of this case is intergenerational tension. Parents are more invested than ever in their children, even when they're grown." In a case similar to Terri Schiavo's, a 1983 car accident left Nancy Cruzan unconscious. She could breathe but needed a feeding tube. The Supreme Court, in its first right-to-die case, ruled in 1990 that Cruzan had a right to refuse treatment but said her parents did not present sufficient evidence of her wishes. Friends said that she would not want to be kept alive; a Missouri court allowed her tube to be removed. She died 12 days later. "Nancy Cruzan was also found to be in a persistent vegetative state," says Kendall Coffey, former U.S. attorney in Miami now in private practice. "But the family was in agreement. So you've got that extraordinary dynamic (in Schiavo's case) of a bitter family disagreement." Mintz says similar end-of-life cases, including one this year involving a baby in Houston, have not resonated with the public because they did not have the element of family tension. The money, he told USA TODAY, has become "the symbol of whether one is genuinely concerned about her interest." Today, the money from the lawsuit settlement is almost gone, Grieco, the attorney, says. Just $40,000 to $50,000 remained as of mid-March. The $700,000 in Terri's trust has paid for her care, lawyers, expert medical witnesses. Michael Schiavo's $300,000 share evaporated years ago, he says. Views about life, death Terri Schiavo left no instructions about her care. In such an instance, Florida law requires a judge to follow a person's last wishes, if they can be established. In his order, Greer said he relied upon the testimony of five witnesses regarding Terri's views about right-to-die issues. Schiavo, his older brother Scott and Joan Schiavo, wife of another of Schiavo's brothers, all said Terri had said or indicated that she would not want to be kept alive if her brain stopped working. Mary Schindler and Diane Meyer, a childhood friend of Terri's, testified that she she would. Scott Schiavo testified that after the 1988 funeral for his grandmother, who was briefly kept alive on artificial life support, a clutch of relatives sat around a luncheon table in Langhorne, Pa., talking about the way she had died. "And Terri made mention ... that, 'If I ever go like that, just let me go. Don't leave me there. I don't want to be kept alive on a machine.' " Joan Schiavo testified that she and Terri, whom she described as "my best friend and like a sister that I never had," had discussed artificial life support as many as 12 times. Joan Schiavo testified that she had a girlfriend who had decided to take her baby off life support, and that Terri indicated she would have done the same thing. Mary Schindler's recollection of what her daughter wanted was different. She testified that Terri had commented on news coverage of the case of Karen Ann Quinlan, whose ventilator was turned off in 1976 after her parents went to the New Jersey Supreme Court. Schindler said her daughter told her this about Quinlan: "Just leave her alone. Leave her. If they take her off, she might die. Just leave her alone and she will die whenever." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:02:27 +0000 From: littlebreen@comcast.net Subject: Re: The Head Cabbage in a Persistent Vegetative State (njc) Bob Muller said: <> :-/ You forgot to include any whackjob fringe clergy who decide to cash in on some free PR, they've got to be in on it, too; although I notice fringe clergy frequently reject the "one man, one woman" rule with respect to *themselves*. Sigh, Walt - -- Let the walls go tumbling down Falling on the ground And all the dogs go running free The wild and gentle dogs Kenneled in me From: Bob Muller To: David Henderson , littlebreen@comcast.net, Joni Mitchell List Subject: Re: The Head Cabbage in a Persistent Vegetative State (njc) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:50:54 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from Multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c-p1 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain I hear that the Republicans are now pushing for the definition of marriage to be between a man, a woman, her parents, and the US Congress. Bob NP: Wall of Voodoo, "Tse Tse Fly" (going out to my favorite WoV/Stan Ridgway buddy...you know who you are & I LUV ya!) Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:44:15 -0500 From: Reuben Bell Subject: Re: Paprika Plains, the remix 100% JC, now 99.99999% JC Whatever Happened To Julie Z. Webb. Is she still around here somewhere? Reuben On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:48:59 -0500, Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Hmmm. Yes. That's deep. Indeed. > > You get the "Julie Z. Webb Memorial Award for Literature". Here's your > gold-plated copy of the "Hejira" CD, on a scarlet, velvet, neck band. > > Your alums (to date) are: Deb Messling, Richard Flynn, Jenny Goodspeed, > Laura Stanley, Kakki, Patrick Leader, Bob Sartorius, & Em. And you know > there may be more... > > At least 1/2 serious, > Jim > > PS, Les Irvin is a provisional alum because he appreciates Dylan and > should write more. RR and Muller are on probation for taking so many > swipes at the compilations. > > Catherine McKay wrote: > > I like that the "missing" passage is just in the > > lyrics sheet and not sung. It makes the whole thing > > interactive or multisensory (you hear the music and > > the sung words, you look at the pictures, you read the > > words and conjure up images in your head). You can > > read it to yourself while the orchestral interlude is > > playing. In a strange way, I think it helps you > > recognize that it's not just the words in the song, > > but the way of life, that is missing. > > > > NP Gemma Hayes: Today I ran for miles > > Catherine > > Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 03:54:44 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: RE: The Head Cabbage in a Persistent Vegetative State (njc) Hi! Very good pointing, oh my! > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Richard > Flynn > > You know I stayed out of this, but this morning's Washington Post > story made > me extremely angry. While the President has been busy trying to shore up > his right-wing nut-job base, by cynically manipulating the Schiavo > controversy, the poor people of Red Lake, MN are angry about his silence > about the school shooting. This quotation is telling: [...] > I agree that this President is essentially a racist. I really believe this > is not hyperbole. well, I'd say that calling your actual president a racist is a true redundance. Not only racist against other countries' people, but against his own co-citizens. Isn't it obvious he ain't in electoral campaing no more and he doesn't care a s*t 'bout what a large of USA people think of him? Well, he has been amazingly reelected! (forgive me for this, but I'd say that those ___ Mr. Schiavo's parents-in-law were allowed to vote in poor Terri's name, too) From what I know about how the media "works" in your beautiful country, I'm not surprised that this should-be-euthanasia case takes so many hours in news and talk shows... and so little for Red Lake school!!! Oh no, talk about Bush being reelected by the morality of his governement! I feel so angry about this! And excuse me for talking one more time, and in so simply/stupid terms, in this painful matter)... so don't get me started ;-) And Bob, your occurrence really shone wonderful (we need a *big* laugh, please!) > > I hear that the Republicans are now pushing for the definition of marriage > to be between a man, a woman, her parents, and the US Congress. > > Bob > "...I got the news I want in the JMDL..." Thanks! Have a Wonderful time! Emiliano NP: Richard Flynn, "Return of the Grievous Angel" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2005 #136 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)