From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2005 #135 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, March 25 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 135 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: NJC Schiavo and massacre [Bob Muller ] Re: good husband?, njc [vince ] Subject: fraudulent email looks like it's from PayPal [Claud9 ] Re: Pope, njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: good husband?, njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: Brain Stem and Thalamus etc njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] RE: whoa! so much music!!!! NJC ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Enough Schiavo already (njc) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Brain Stem and Thalamus etc njc [Garret ] Re: Brain Stem and Thalamus etc njc [Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo and massacre Michael Paz wrote: Hey Mike - at the very least I'll come down there and stick the other end of your feeding tube in a tequila bottle. Pinky swear. Bob Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:51:31 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: good husband?, njc The following is, in my opinion, a load of misinformed polemic shit. I inquire as to the source and have my suspicions. Yes, Michael is involved with another woman, his wife has been brain dead for 15 years. Just like the spouses of Alzheimer's patients who begin new relationships after their loved one's have been lost to the disease. If Michael wanted to marry again he does not need Terry dead to do that. I do not know the man, but I would not be surprised if he does marry once Terry is pronounced dead. But he does not need her dead to do that. Michael has hung in despite all the personal vilification and attacks, having done everything that he has been able to do for his wife, so that he can carry out her wishes. I think he is a witness to the love that he bears for his wife and I do not begrudge him that years after his wife was pronounced essentially dead that he has found a way to continue his life. There have been plenty of news accounts (over the years and in the past few days) of Michael's search for medical solutions for his wife, and how he has loved her and cared for her. I do not have time now before work to do that type of search. I have an intense distaste for those who seek to vilify this man. And when someone wants to trumpet that someone else lives in "open adultery" I think the mirror on the accuser is comment enough. Vince LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: >Vince wrote: > >he is a hero, an amazing man, a wonderful husband. > > >Hi Vince, > > What about the following? > >Love, >Laura > > >Schiavo Refuses to Dissolve Marriage >FS 798.01 Living in Open Adultery >Since 1995, Michael Schiavo, Terribs legal guardian, has been engaged to >and >living with Jodi Centzone. Michael Schiavo has fathered two children with >this woman. >Michael Schiavo is currently married to Terri Schiavo. The two were married >in a Catholic Nuptial Mass, November 1984. >Incidentally, in order to be married in a Catholic ceremony, and at the >insistence of Terri because Michael was not Catholic, Michael agreed to get a >special dispensation. One stipulation to receive a special dispensation was >that Michael agreed to raise any children that Terri and he may have as Roman >Catholics. >Incidentally, the manner in which the Schindler family was made aware that >Michael was engaged to another woman while still married to Terri was >receiving the obituary of Michaelbs mother, Claire Schiavo, when she died >in 1997. >In part of the obituary it was stated that Claire Schiavo is survived by >Michael Schiavo and his fiancC)e Jodi Centzone. There was no mention of >Michael >Schiavobs wife, Terri. >This happened once again in 2001 when Michael Schiavo's father passed away. >While Jodi Centzone was mentioned as Michaelbs fiancC)e, there was no >mentioning of Michaelbs current wife, Terri. >Note: Michael Schiavo did testify that he was in fact engaged to marry Jodi >Centzone once his wife has passed away. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:16:29 -0500 From: Claud9 Subject: Subject: fraudulent email looks like it's from PayPal Thanks Anne, I am glad to see here that it is a fraudulent site. Wouldn't you know, I went to it, put all my info in. I only stopped short when they asked for my credit card pin. Mainly, because I don't ever use a pin for my credit card and therefore wasn't sure I had it right. And then I got a really suspicious feeling. So I opened a new browser window and went to paypal. The base url matched. Still I went to my account info and it said nothing about my account being suspended. I then sent the email on to to report a suspicious email. Whew, they almost got me apparently. How do they do it? Make it look real, with matching url - or so darn close that I didn't pick up on the difference. Thanks for the warning. I bet you many people got caught by it, as I almost did. Hugs, Claudia on 3/24/05 7:37 PM, JMDL Digest at les@jmdl.com wrote: > Subject: fraudulent email looks like it's from PayPal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:38:32 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Subject: fraudulent email looks like it's from PayPal It's called Phishing, and they have been around for years. It includes please from Nigeria, lotto's from Ethiopia, and tons of banks. Their new game is to have you fill out a survey for $25.00, and then give them your bank information so they can deposit the money in your bank. You wouldn't believe hoe many people fall for it. Jerry > Thanks Anne, > I am glad to see here that it is a fraudulent site. Wouldn't you know, I > went to it, put all my info in. I only stopped short when they asked for my > credit card pin. Mainly, because I don't ever use a pin for my credit card > and therefore wasn't sure I had it right. And then I got a really suspicious > feeling. So I opened a new browser window and went to paypal. The base url > matched. Still I went to my account info and it said nothing about my > account being suspended. I then sent the email on to to report a suspicious > email. Whew, they almost got me apparently. How do they do it? Make it look > real, with matching url - or so darn close that I didn't pick up on the > difference. Thanks for the warning. I bet you many people got caught by it, > as I almost did. > > Hugs, > Claudia > > > on 3/24/05 7:37 PM, JMDL Digest at les@jmdl.com wrote: > >> Subject: fraudulent email looks like it's from PayPal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:48:00 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Pope, njc Catherine wrote: Yes, I agree. He should quit and let someone else take over. Hi Catherine! Can a father of a family quit? When a father gets a progressive illness, the other family members take over most of his responsibilites, but he is still their father. The Pope and the church have been transitioning for a long time relative to what the Pope can and can't do. However, he is father first and administrator second. The ecclesiastical role of the Pope is Bishop of Rome, and an aging bishop typically retires as Bishop Emeritus. We have a Bishop Emeritus of the diocese of Little Rock. He is still pretty active but not so much in our diocese. He has humbled himself by becoming chaplain of a nursing home in Chicago, and some people don't even know he is a bishop. He used to be my spiritual director and is dear to my heart. I am in a very real sense his daughter, and he calls me when he is in town or I visit him when I'm in Chicago. You would love him. Before he became a priest, he was going to be a comedian. In spiritual direction, I asked him whether he thought I should be more conservative or liberal, and he told me if I have to choose then be more liberal because it is more human. He also told me once that when he first became Bishop, people were wanting him to do something about a convent of nuns who didn't want to wear their habits... to enforce them wearing habits. He asked the Archbishop what he should do, and the Archbishop told him, "I ordained you Bishop not police officer." I think that says a lot about the role of Bishop. Anyway, as Bishop Emeritus, he doesn't get directly involved in any decisions made by our Bishop. However, our Bishop reveres and loves him as an older brother who he can draw from and give to when need be. I think that whatever happens with the Pope, it is not so much dealing with power as with reverence and love for the father of a family and by the father for the family. Much consideration and love is being demonstrated on the part of the Pope and the rest of the church family including women in the church. This Pope has always drawn from women in a way that gives me a lot of respect for him. His condition is pretty pitiful, but Parkinson's is a motor systems disease and typically only one in four patients wth Parkinson's suffer from dementia. However, depression is common in Parkinson's disease. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:02:00 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: Subject: fraudulent email looks like it's from PayPal It is the second thime in the last several years that paypal has been used like this - so also once was ebay - Vince - -- http://www.southsiders.net - -------------- Original message -------------- > Thanks Anne, > I am glad to see here that it is a fraudulent site. Wouldn't you know, I > went to it, put all my info in. I only stopped short when they asked for my > credit card pin. Mainly, because I don't ever use a pin for my credit card > and therefore wasn't sure I had it right. And then I got a really suspicious > feeling. So I opened a new browser window and went to paypal. The base url > matched. Still I went to my account info and it said nothing about my > account being suspended. I then sent the email on to to report a suspicious > email. Whew, they almost got me apparently. How do they do it? Make it look > real, with matching url - or so darn close that I didn't pick up on the > difference. Thanks for the warning. I bet you many people got caught by it, > as I almost did. > > Hugs, > Claudia > > > on 3/24/05 7:37 PM, JMDL Digest at les@jmdl.com wrote: > > > Subject: fraudulent email looks like it's from PayPal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:12:35 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: njc clairification looking over what I emailed earlier today, it may appear that I was not happy with Laura - let me affirm my total affection for and apprciation of Laura, who is one of the greatest people on the list; my words were directed towards the article that attacked Michael Schiavo. I feel for the guy. This case has been around a long timeand I have been following it for years as this matter has morbidly been denied resolution. And thus I responded to the article. But for our beloved LStanley7, all I can say is I have for so long appreciated seeing that name in my inbox because she is a compassionate, caring, and wonderful person whose insights I value and treasure in all areas. Love you Laura! Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:35:25 EST From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: I love this list(NJC) In a message dated 25/03/2005 00:38:37 GMT Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 19:37:10 -0000 > From: "Paul Castle" > Subject: I love this list (NJC) > > Ashara wrote: > > >also included a surprise CD of Karine Polwart that I am truly loving. > >I never would have even heard of her without this list! > > Not sure this is quite true - it was Ashara herself (I think > I'm right in saying) who 'discovered' this lady - or at least > was one of the first. I clearly remember her, at the Cambridge > Folk Festival a few years ago, banging on about a band she > had just seen playing on one of the smaller stages called > 'Malinky' and how I had to go see them. > > After six years with Malinky, Karine has recently gone solo > winning 'Best Album, 'Best Original Song' and the Horizon > Award at this year's BBC Folk Awards. > http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/folkawards2005/gallery/1.shtml > > Asharashesura can pick 'em! > > best to all > PaulC > > np The Weakerthans - One Great City! (I hate Winnipeg) > Hi guys, Just chipping in to say what a beautiful song the winner of the Folk Award thingy is! Sun Coming Over the Hill is a bit special and tackles the subject of bereavement with such understanding and positivity (if that's the word). Wonderful! Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:47:11 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: whoa! so much music!!!! NJC you all are a mixed influence on me! Between this list and our community radio, I'm spending $$$ on CD's! its CRAZY! lol... Mary Gauthier the other day...Tracy Grammer today and then just as a whim a "best of" Taj Mahal today. Reason I thought of Taj..is I wanted you guys to WAKE UP, lol..sorry..and I was gonna threaten to repeatedly play his song that I don't know the name of but it goes "uh uh uh uh uh uh" over and over... anyway, I don't actually own the record with uh uh uh on it. ANd neither is it on the the best of I just ordered. I just think a quiet holiday weekend morning would be a wicked and wonderful time to cause people to laugh, cuz it is very hilarious. uh uh uh... :P em "its hard to know the truth, so we live with points of view". ....Mary Gauthier ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:47:15 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Pope, njc - --- LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: > Catherine wrote: > > Yes, I agree. He should quit and let someone else > take over. > > > Hi Catherine! > > Can a father of a family quit? When a father > gets a progressive > illness, the other family members take over most of > his responsibilites, but he is > still their father. The Pope and the church have > been transitioning for a > long time relative to what the Pope can and can't > do. However, he is father > first and administrator second. > > The ecclesiastical role of the Pope is Bishop > of Rome, and an aging > bishop typically retires as Bishop Emeritus. [...] > I think that whatever happens with the Pope, it > is not so much dealing > with power as with reverence and love for the > father of a family and by the > father for the family. Much consideration and love > is being demonstrated on > the part of the Pope and the rest of the church > family including women in the > church. This Pope has always drawn from women in a > way that gives me a lot of > respect for him. > > His condition is pretty pitiful, but Parkinson's > is a motor systems > disease and typically only one in four patients wth > Parkinson's suffer from > dementia. However, depression is common in > Parkinson's disease. > > Love, > Laura I think he should become Papa Emeritus then. I don't think he suffers from dementia, but his physical condition is such that he really should pass the torch to someone else. I honestly don't think he's long for this world anyway. I just saw how he missed Good Friday mass today, which means he can't be in very good shape and, to be honest, I'm surprised he survived the tracheotomy and all. He seems very fragile. It is terrible to see someone in such a state. My own Dad had Parkinson's and, while he was gradually losing control over his ability to walk, and his voice was getting thin, he certainly never lost his marbles, nor his sense of humour. Fortunately, he had a sudden massive coronary and died very quickly before Parkinson's got a really terrible grip on him. He would have appreciated that, because he always said he wanted to go quickly and he didn't want to end up in a home. I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about the Pope's dealing with women, though. I had hopes for him for a while, that maybe he would allow priests to marry, or allow women to be priests, but he has stayed the conservative route on that, and it just pisses me off so much when I hear them railing on about gay issues and abortion and it's always the same old thing. The Catholic church needs to make itself more relevant to the times and provide people with guidance, rather than a strict set of rules from which no one should vary. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:53:14 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: good husband?, njc You tend not to see the expression "open adultery" in the mainstream press, that's for sure. It sounds like someone has an agenda (don't we all? but this sounds like a "burn the witches" type of agenda to me.) Catherine - who also has tremendous respect for Laura, who never loses it, no matter what the topic is! - --- vince wrote: > The following is, in my opinion, a load of > misinformed polemic shit. I > inquire as to the source and have my suspicions. > > Yes, Michael is involved with another woman, his > wife has been brain > dead for 15 years. Just like the spouses of > Alzheimer's patients who > begin new relationships after their loved one's have > been lost to the > disease. [...] > And when someone wants to trumpet that someone else > lives in "open > adultery" I think the mirror on the accuser is > comment enough. > Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:13:51 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Brain Stem and Thalamus etc njc Garret wrote: I ask now is there a difference between consciousness and having thoughts? Is conscious awareness the same as being conscious? I would be very interested in your answer to the first question, Hi Garret, In my opinion consciousness is present in the central nervous system in multiple ways. The concept of "thought" is also rather complex. Let me talk about consciousness. First, I think it is important to realize that consciousness doesn't always allow one to excell but sometimes happers functioning. Most of what we do in the awake state is not conscious. If it was, we would go crazy. There are infact some disorders where people are too conscious, they perceive everything around them all the time. They expend way too much biochemical energy, and they have a very poor quality of life. The cerebral cortex is by an large an inhibitory system. It functions predominantly not by turning on but by turning off. I think this is most easy to understand when thinking about "concentration." To produce a thought, there has to be focally concentrated neuronal firing which requires surrounding areas to be inhibited or turned off. If one for instance is to successfully think about the TV show they are watching, they must turn off other areas of their brain. So, they might not hear or notice somebody who walks up to them and starts talking to them. Their ears receive the sound of the voice, but there is inhibition of the central nervous system neurons that normally respond to neuronal impulses, the electrochemical conversions of the sound waves. The person is not conscious of the other individual but is very conscious of the TV program. You ask if conscious awareness is the same as being conscious? Given the example I just mentioned, I would have to say no. The person was not consciously aware of the individual who approached her, but nobody would argue that she was conscious. We are more unaware than we are aware. Although conscious, we are not usually aware of our breathing or of our heart beat or of our underwear or socks, etc. If we were consciously aware of all of these things, it would be pathological and very detrimental to us. Your first question was, "is there a difference between consciousness and having thoughts?" In my opinion, yes, very definitely. We can be conscious and having feelings rather than thoughts. I think an interesting question is, how does or did Joni do it? What is her gift? I would say, she when she writes, she has an incredible ability to inhibit her cerebral cortex and to stimulate her limbic system, thalamus, basal ganglia, and lower brain stem areas such as the reticular formation. And when she is performing, she has a remarkable ability to inhibit her cerebral cortex and stimulate her cerebellum, limbic system, and basal ganglia. I remember in the Woman of Heart and Soul documentary, Graham said something about Joni's trance like state when she was writing. This could be that she has the gift selectively gating her central nervous system to access deeper areas, those associated with a more vegetative or trancelike state when she was writing. And like a flower that blossums, when she has just the deep brain music playing that fits together perfectly, a nice limbic system loop formed if you will, she has the gift of being able to transfer those impulses to the areas of the cerebral cortex to get them down on paper or to produce vocalization of them... to express them and thereby share them with us. You wrote, "If the brainstem and the thalamus are among the "indispensible substrata" for consciousness, which i don't doubt, this does not necessarily imply that the cerebral cortex is not also critical in conscsiouness or awareness." Yes, but I would say the cerebral cortex is much more important in the expression of such awareness. It is like the flower opening for the world to see. You wrote, "So, to exist without a functional cerebral cortex likely means existing with impaired (if you excuse the use of that awful word) consciousness or perhaps without the expereince of conscious awareness even if that person can respond emotionally to visual and auditory stimuli." I would say conscious awareness remains but on a very different level in those without a functional cerebral cortex. My guess is that it would be more like what we experience in dreaming. An internal reality unable to link up with the external reality. You wrote, "So, the problem for me is that while i agree with what you said about it being presumptuous to conclude that a person without a functional cerebral cortex is prohibitted from having thoughts, isn't it also presumptuous to conclude that they are having thoughts?" In my opinion, when dealing with the unknown, it is important to admit the possibilities are open, otherwise the concept of "unknown" is bogus and conclusions can be misleading. Theories can be presented as fact which is very intellectually stuffy and not good for growth in knowledge. I wasn't saying people without a cerebral cortex are having thoughts, but they might indeed be. You wrote, "Or is it the case that thoughts are need not be conscious and can include feelings, emotional reactions etc." The definition of thought is very complex in the realm of neuroscience. Yes, all of these could be included. You wrote, "I agree that Terri Schiavo is probably having some mental experience that is inaccessible to the outside world, but what does this mean?" Hopefully someday we will know the answer to this. I don't know. Perhaps in the future, people like Terri will be given anesthesia known to turn off the brain stem. You wrote, "While she was in a vegetative state to the outside world, things were registering and she maintained some understanding." Yes, I've heard of this happening. I don't think it is rare for people use the deeper parts of their central nervous systems and not have successful transfer of what goes on there to their cerebral cortex. But, when people do, it can be an very awesome gift to those around them. On the other hand, it might result in serial killers or other sociopaths. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:20:15 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: whoa! so much music!!!! NJC "A Soulful Tune" on _Take a Giant Step_. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Em Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 10:47 AM To: jonilist Subject: whoa! so much music!!!! NJC you all are a mixed influence on me! Between this list and our community radio, I'm spending $$$ on CD's! its CRAZY! lol... Mary Gauthier the other day...Tracy Grammer today and then just as a whim a "best of" Taj Mahal today. Reason I thought of Taj..is I wanted you guys to WAKE UP, lol..sorry..and I was gonna threaten to repeatedly play his song that I don't know the name of but it goes "uh uh uh uh uh uh" over and over... anyway, I don't actually own the record with uh uh uh on it. ANd neither is it on the the best of I just ordered. I just think a quiet holiday weekend morning would be a wicked and wonderful time to cause people to laugh, cuz it is very hilarious. uh uh uh... :P em "its hard to know the truth, so we live with points of view". ....Mary Gauthier ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:23:53 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Pope, njc Catherine wrote: I just saw how he missed Good Friday mass today, which means he can't be in very good shape Hi Catherine, Good Friday is the only day in the Catholic church world-wide when there is no Mass. But, there is a service commemorating Jesus' crucifixion and death. Perhaps this is what you were talking about. I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about the Pope's dealing with women, though. I had hopes for him for a while, that maybe he would allow priests to marry, or allow women to be priests, Change comes slowly. There are now girl altar servers and women lecturers and Eucharistic ministers. Women are holding Communion services... I've done this myself at my parish and at the cathedral. These roles of women were unheard of even in the 60's. As for priests being allowed to marry, that has already historically been and will most likely happen again in the nearing future. We do have a number of married priests in the Catholic church already btw. I'm off to the zoo shortly... catch ya'll later. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:28:43 +0000 From: "Michael O'Malley" Subject: Enough Schiavo already (njc) I'm sorry, but I really don't see why we're getting all wound up around this Schiavo story. What exactly is a human life worth? Aside from the violence and warfare on this planet, every year we let die 10.6 million of the world's children under the age of 5, primarily from diseases such as pneumonia, diarrhea, and malaria. On average, 205 children die every hour from diarrhea alone (Source: Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore MD.). That's about 3 children per minute, just from diarrhea. Think about it. Where is the political will to reduce the poverty, provide basic nutrition and clean water for the world's children ? Why is it that the fate of a poor white lady in the USA is taking up so much time and space, when the suffering of millions of people in developing countries around the world go largely unnoticed every day? Perhaps it is because we cannot bend our minds around the enormity of the problem. However, I do think we need to set and keep sight of our priorities. There are so many more important battles to fight for. Michael in Quebec _________________________________________________________________ Designer Mail isn't just fun to send, it's fun to receive. Use special stationery, fonts and colors. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN. Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:44:39 -0500 From: "David Henderson" Subject: The Head Cabbage in a Persistent Vegetative State (njc) WALT SAID: "Regarding the Schiavo case, one of the things I sent this morning that I think may be lost in the ether is mny speculation that the Prizdint's interest in the Schiavo case is that he is, himself, in a persistent vegetative state." LOLOLOLOLOL AND: "And speaking of most intimate caretakers, if marriage is so sacred that it must be kept from being permitted to non-heterosexuals, then how come Mr. Schiavo's right to make this decision is so easily trod over by these God-fearing Christians (if I were they, I'd fear God, too)." Good point. I wondered if this had occurred to anyone else. David NP Karen Ann ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:40:46 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Pope, njc - --- LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: > Catherine wrote: > > I just saw how he missed Good Friday mass today, > which means he can't be in > very > good shape > > Hi Catherine, > > Good Friday is the only day in the Catholic > church world-wide when there > is no Mass. But, there is a service commemorating > Jesus' crucifixion and > death. Perhaps this is what you were talking > about. > Just goes to show how lapsed I am. I never did like the Good Friday service and wouldn't go, if I didn't have to. But my parents were the drag-the-kids-to-church type. > Change comes slowly. There are now girl altar > servers and women > lecturers and Eucharistic ministers. Women are > holding Communion services... I've > done this myself at my parish and at the cathedral. > These roles of women were > unheard of even in the 60's. Yeah, but that wasn't JPII's doing. That was Paul XXIII. Yet, not that long ago, there were STILL bishops and individuals that wanted to dispense with female alter servers, lectors and ministers of the Eucharist. Do you remember when women *had* to wear hats to church? You're a few years younger than me, so you might not remember, but I do remember, being a kid of 6 or 7, when our school would traipse over to the church for First Friday mass, and, if we didn't have a hat, we'd pin a piece of toilet paper to our hair! Better to wear toilet paper on your head than no hat? Good grief! (Could've been worse - it could've been used - iwww!) > As for priests being allowed to marry, that has > already historically > been and will most likely happen again in the > nearing future. We do have a > number of married priests in the Catholic church > already btw. > Yeah, but they're already married before they become priests. They're not allowed to marry if they were ordained beforehand. My Dad was a deacon. My Mum got pissed off at him that he signed up for this, without consulting her first, because she was afraid that, if she died, he wouldn't be able to remarry. It seemed like a joke at the time but, after Mum died, sure enough, Dad met a woman and they wanted to get married. Even though he had retired from the diaconate, he had to have his vows dissolved/absolved/whatevah by the Pope himself. They did release him, but it took a year. And they came over to his place to check for signs of them cohabiting beforehand! The reason for making priests be celibate had something to do with the bad behaviours of some priests during (when?) the middle ages(?), but it didn't stop the baddies from being bad and I think it made it worse for good people that might have considered the priesthood, but wanted to marry. In any case, I hope the next Pope is a liberal, but I highly doubt we'll see that happen any time soon, given the current climate. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:48:47 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Enough Schiavo already (njc) - --- Michael O'Malley wrote: > I'm sorry, but I really don't see why we're getting > all wound up around this > Schiavo story. What exactly is a human life worth? > Aside from the violence > and warfare on this planet, every year we let die > 10.6 million of the > world's children under the age of 5, primarily from > diseases such as > pneumonia, diarrhea, and malaria. [...] Why is it > that the fate of a poor white lady in the USA is > taking up so much time and > space, when the suffering of millions of people in > developing countries > around the world go largely unnoticed every day? > Perhaps it is because we > cannot bend our minds around the enormity of the > problem. However, I do > think we need to set and keep sight of our > priorities. There are so many > more important battles to fight for. > I think you've hit the nail right on the head with "we cannot bend our minds around the enormity of the problem." I wonder if there were ONE little child in a developing nation that the media were to focus on, and the world leaders were to pay attention to, would THAT be a new focus? Somehow I doubt it, because, and I hate to say this but I believe it's true, most of these kids aren't white. I would say I'm surprised at heads of state taking this one on, but I'm not, and not just because it's Bush and company. People form their opinions based on hearsay and kneejerk reactions and so many of them can't get past that first opinion to listen to what anyone else has to say. I hope this is going to be my last post on this, considering I wasn't going to enter this particular minefield, because I'm kinda fed up with talking about it. On the one hand, it raises a number of interesting points for discussion; on the other hand, our opinion and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee! Happy Easter, everyone! Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:20:25 +0000 From: Garret Subject: Re: Brain Stem and Thalamus etc njc What remarkable consideration in your reply Laura; thank you. I will spend some time thinking about what you said in relation to consciousness (although i'm going away tomorrow for a few days so it probably won't be the next few days). I have a few general comments in relation to other things you brought up. I'd love to have a coffee and a chat with you Laura. You mention inhibitory functions of the cortex. Funnily, I did a little reading on this in relation to mental illness and, separately, in relation to people with acquired brain injury (that's who i work with at the moment). It is very easy to follow and prematurely accept the typical reasoning that "if brain area A is damaged and cognitive function X is impaired then brain area A must be the (or one of the necessary) brain area(s) that bring about this function". yet the reality is more complicated. Although the above does have some merit, such causal relationships are probably too simple to explain the way we function. In some ways it could be kind of like the agonist/antagonist thing with muscles (-ish). For exapmle,it could be that "activation of brain area A inhibits brain area B, which impedes cognitive function X, so a lesion at brain area A results in brain area B being overactivated which results in an imparied cognitive function X". This way of thinking about brain function is very recent i think and has not yet found its way into many textbooks. And if i'm not mistaken, isn't this one of the reasons that deep brain stimulation can be an effective treatment for some patients with parkinson's disease? When you say that there are disorders in which patients appear "too conscious", this makes me think of something i read in relation to schizophrenia years ago. That is, one of the neuropsychological findings related to certain diagnoses of schizophrenia (couldn't say exactly which, i don't have that paper to hand but i would be inclined to think that i am talking about the catatonic schizophrenia) is a problem of selective attention (??). Patients have reported that sensual input becomes too great to bear and they feel overloaded. Sounds, images, tactile stimuli... everything. They may become completly absorbed in the ruffles of curtains or the creases on a shirt and they may ascribe meaning to these patently irrelevant stimuli. Or they may sit in a dark, silent room trying to minimise the input. You said that we are more unaware than we are aware. I completely agree. you don't now how often i have had this conversation. The examples you used are good and i may just borrow them;-) This harks back to the attentional blink for me. To my mind, the attentional blink (accurate report - i.e. consciously - of a first target can significantly impede report of a second target under certain conditions wihtin about 0.5seconds) is just one way of demonstrating that we don't see as much as we think we see. When put together with the change blindness and inattentional blindness paradigms we have some rather compelling evidence that we aren't as aware as we think we are even when *looking at something*. Well, that's my opinion. A final point; (this isn't njc afterall;-) I really liked your suggestion about how artists like Joni work. How common is it to hear that artists of various domains experience this "trance state" when working? I think you should supervise a phd and that be the researhc matter! I wish i had time to get into a discussion of the pitfalls of biological/neurological reductionism with you (to play devil's advocate that is....), but my dad is fifty today and i'm leaving for the surprise party pretty soon (with the bloomin' cheesecake, i really thought that was going to be a disaster!). GARRET (really enjoying this) - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:33:05 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Brain Stem and Thalamus etc njc Garret wrote: A final point; (this isn't njc afterall;-) I really liked your suggestion about how artists like Joni work. How common is it to hear that artists of various domains experience this "trance state" when working? I think you should supervise a phd and that be the researhc matter! Laura and Garret - I just got through reading 'The Midnight Disease'. It's written by a neurologist who uses hypergraphia as a jumping off point to discuss writer's block and creativity in general and how they are influenced by limbic system functions and related temporal and frontal lobe activity. The author has had bouts of hypergraphia and major depression herself and so it's also a bit of a memoir. Interesting read. Also reminds me of another book 'Mind Wide Open' . The author wanted to capture what was going on in his brain as he is involved in the creative process so he had a couple of fMRIs and when he was struggling to create, to come up with something new, there was lots of activity, but has he got into the 'zone', and started composing constructive sentences and ideas, that was when there was the least amount of activity on the scan. The lesson being that when the brain is functioning at it's best, it's as much about shutting down as it is switching on. Thanks for the interesting posts you two. I've enjoyed them. Jenny What remarkable consideration in your reply Laura; thank you. I will spend some time thinking about what you said in relation to consciousness (although i'm going away tomorrow for a few days so it probably won't be the next few days). I have a few general comments in relation to other things you brought up. I'd love to have a coffee and a chat with you Laura. You mention inhibitory functions of the cortex. Funnily, I did a little reading on this in relation to mental illness and, separately, in relation to people with acquired brain injury (that's who i work with at the moment). It is very easy to follow and prematurely accept the typical reasoning that "if brain area A is damaged and cognitive function X is impaired then brain area A must be the (or one of the necessary) brain area(s) that bring about this function". yet the reality is more complicated. Although the above does have some merit, such causal relationships are probably too simple to explain the way we function. In some ways it could be kind of like the agonist/antagonist thing with muscles (-ish). For exapmle,it could be that "activation of brain area A inhibits brain area B, which impedes cognitive function X, so a lesion at brain area A results in brain area B being overactivated which results in an imparied cognitive function X". This way of thinking about brain function is very recent i think and has not yet found its way into many textbooks. And if i'm not mistaken, isn't this one of the reasons that deep brain stimulation can be an effective treatment for some patients with parkinson's disease? When you say that there are disorders in which patients appear "too conscious", this makes me think of something i read in relation to schizophrenia years ago. That is, one of the neuropsychological findings related to certain diagnoses of schizophrenia (couldn't say exactly which, i don't have that paper to hand but i would be inclined to think that i am talking about the catatonic schizophrenia) is a problem of selective attention (??). Patients have reported that sensual input becomes too great to bear and they feel overloaded. Sounds, images, tactile stimuli... everything. They may become completly absorbed in the ruffles of curtains or the creases on a shirt and they may ascribe meaning to these patently irrelevant stimuli. Or they may sit in a dark, silent room trying to minimise the input. You said that we are more unaware than we are aware. I completely agree. you don't now how often i have had this conversation. The examples you used are good and i may just borrow them;-) This harks back to the attentional blink for me. To my mind, the attentional blink (accurate report - i.e. consciously - of a first target can significantly impede report of a second target under certain conditions wihtin about 0.5seconds) is just one way of demonstrating that we don't see as much as we think we see. When put together with the change blindness and inattentional blindness paradigms we have some rather compelling evidence that we aren't as aware as we think we are even when *looking at something*. Well, that's my opinion. A final point; (this isn't njc afterall;-) I really liked your suggestion about how artists like Joni work. How common is it to hear that artists of various domains experience this "trance state" when working? I think you should supervise a phd and that be the researhc matter! I wish i had time to get into a discussion of the pitfalls of biological/neurological reductionism with you (to play devil's advocate that is....), but my dad is fifty today and i'm leaving for the surprise party pretty soon (with the bloomin' cheesecake, i really thought that was going to be a disaster!). GARRET (really enjoying this) - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:50:27 +0000 From: "William Waddell" Subject: Elvis Costello's Artist's Choice CD - Joni bumph, verbatim THE LAST TIME I SAW RICHARD from the album Blue JONI MITCHELL Blue from 1971, is Joni Mitchell's most spare and haunting record, wherein she discloses her essence with candid insight akin to the greatest memoirists in literature. Recorded at A&M Studios in Los Angeles, it also featured fellow musicians James Taylor and Stephen Stills. "I recently had the wonderful experience of interviewing Joni Mitchell for a Vanity Fair article. We talked about everything under the sun for about six and a half hours. In the introduction to our conversation, I wrote about skipping off school in Liverpool, where I lived between 1970 and 1973, to go and buy a ticket for a Joni concert. I sent a message to my friend Tony Tremaco to let him know that I'd mentioned him in the article and he replied with a memory that I had not recalled. He said, 'Did you tell Joni that you came round to my house the day Blue came out because my parents were away and a group of us stayed up all night until we had memorized every word and note on the record?' I hadn't specifically remembered this but I know that I spent a remarkable amount of time listening to Joni Mitchell records, often alone in the dark. At that age I hadn't lived any of the experiences described in such remarkably candid songs but I had the idea that I might one day want to really understand what it meant to say, 'all good dreamers pass this way some day / hiding behind bottles in dark cafes.' I'd live to regret this desire." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:40:37 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Brain Stem and Thalamus etc njc --- Jenny Goodspeed wrote: > Laura and Garret - I just got through reading 'The > Midnight Disease'. It's written by a neurologist > who uses hypergraphia as a jumping off point to > discuss writer's block and creativity in general and > how they are influenced by limbic system functions > and related temporal and frontal lobe activity. The > author has had bouts of hypergraphia and major > depression herself and so it's also a bit of a > memoir. Interesting read. > > Also reminds me of another book 'Mind Wide Open' . > The author wanted to capture what was going on in > his brain as he is involved in the creative process > so he had a couple of fMRIs and when he was > struggling to create, to come up with something new, > there was lots of activity, but has he got into the > 'zone', and started composing constructive sentences > and ideas, that was when there was the least amount > of activity on the scan. The lesson being that when > the brain is functioning at it's best, it's as much > about shutting down as it is switching on. > > Thanks for the interesting posts you two. I've > enjoyed them. Jenny > A big me too. From me. Too. I'm fascinated by this whole business of how the brain works, thinking about thinking, and what makes a person, a person. I often regret that I didn't go into the science end of things, rather than the language business, but the idea of dissecting animals bothered me - not so much the dissection, but they made the kids kill frogs before dissecting them and that was a bit much for me. If they had died of natural causes, it would have been all right. In any case, this has all been fascinating reading for me, and I thank you all. Garret, congratulations on the cheese cake - your Dad will love it! Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:15:19 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Subject: fraudulent email looks like it's from PayPal njc Speaking of PayPal; I have been having trouble registering with the real PayPal, and ran across a site called PayPalsucks.com. It seems alot of people have had problems with the real PayPal, and say their system is not secure, and if someone hacks in and runs up your account, PayPal still expects you to pay it. PayPal is owned by ebay. RR ps I have gotten these kinds of 'official' looking emails with bank logos, too, asking you to reply to 'update' your account before it expires, etc. Never do this, email or phone! ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2005 #135 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)