From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2005 #131 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, March 23 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 131 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Terry and reality NJC [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: NJC Schiavo and massacre [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: I love this list! (NJC) [Lori Fye ] Re: Come In From The Cold [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: I love this list! (NJC) [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: NJC Schiavo and massacre [Lori Fye ] (NJC) Speaking of religion ... [Lori Fye ] Re: NJC Hypocrite ["Ruth Davis" ] Travelogue vs Both Sides Now [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: NJC burial, your body [Lori Fye ] Re: Travelogue vs Both Sides Now [Jamie Zubairi ] Re: FW: Mary Gauthier NJC ["ron" ] RE: Travelogue vs Both Sides Now ["Richard Flynn" ] Googlefight! Travelogue vs Both Sides Now ["Richard Flynn" ] Recording Session in May [Gary Z ] RE: Travelogue vs Both Sides Now ["Cynthia Vickery" ] Re: NJC Hypocrite [Lori Fye ] who is Terri Schiavo? (njc) ["Anne Sandstrom" ] Re: brain stem, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] The Head Cabbage in a Persistent Vegetative State (njc) [littlebreen@comc] Re: NJC Schiavo and massacre [Randy Remote ] Re: who is Terri Schiavo? (njc) [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: NJC Hypocrite [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: who is Terri Schiavo? (njc) [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC burial, your body [Randy Remote ] Re: I love this list! (NJC) [Randy Remote ] Re: brain stem, njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC burial, your body ["McMillan Brad" ] not eating/end of life issue njc [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] RE: who is Terri Schiavo? (njc) ["patrick leader" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:36:54 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: Terry and reality NJC What is scary is anyone believing the fiction that Terry can mouth words. 15 years of intensive medical reports and every court-required study with medical experts all come to the same conclusion. That naughty, naughty silly Terry. Here for 15 years she has faked out all the medical people with shutting off her brain and being totally unresponsive and the minute she is alone with her parents she is conversing in seven languages, doing gymnastics, preparing nine course meals... there was yet another court decision this morning. Does anyone rationally believe that 15 years of court decisions would be to terminate the life support if there was a woman capable of communication? Give me a break. Day by day I resent more and more the lies from the parents. Today they were claiming the Michael wants to kill Terry so he can marry his significant other. What a load of vicious and evil lies. If Michael wants to get married again, he can simply divorce Terry. That he has hung on with his wife for all these years trying to fulfill his marital vows and have things the way that she wanted them, rather than walk away and abandon her, when it would have been so easy for him to walk away... and that despite the viciousness of the attacks on him he stands by his wife to follow through on her wishes.... he is a hero, an amazing man, a wonderful husband. Vince - -------------- Original message -------------- > > Yes..Terry can swallow and breathe on her own. She has even mouthed words. ...pretty scary stuff if > you ask me. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:38:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo and massacre Thank you for saying this Smurf. I understand the need for people to process what's going on with the case because we cannot turn around without hearing about it on a news report or seeing a newspaper (or reading a jmdl email for that matter). But let's keep things in perspective shall we? Thousands of people in this country are in a vegetative state. Thousands of family members must make unfathomably hard decisions on what kind of assistance and rehabilitation to provide or not provide. Terry is one person, her family one family. And their case has been used and manipulated as another hot-button topic to galvanize a small but very influential minority. Really it sickens me that the Republican congress is psyched because this is such a great issue for them. What a boon! And that we can enact a federal law and the president can fly back to DC and sign it (he could have signed it in Crawford) just this one time, for this one special case. But in addition to discussing whether Terry can swallow food or not, or move her finger and is she in discomfort, and is her husband evil and are her parents crazy religious fanatics, why not a national dialogue on the continuum of PVS and what it means for treatment. This state is only becoming more common as medical 'advances' make it possible for people to survive major brain trauma. Or how about the importance of making your own specific wishes known ahead of time in writing in a legal document so that painful battles like this do not occur? And yes Smurf, let's not forget to talk about the people in Red Lake, which to my mind should have been the leading story this week. About how it is the worst school shooting since the horror of Columbine. Actually, has anybody totalled the number of deaths from gun violence in the past 2 months? It's adding up isn't it? And we still have a gun-show loophole, the ban on assault weapons is no longer, and people on the terrorist watch list are allowed to purchase weapons. Jenny Smurf wrote: The sheer brilliance of the right's manipulation of the media is beautifully illustrated by the fact that so many people are distracted by this right-to-live-or-die case on the day after the latest school massacre -- with nearly as many people dead as Columbine -- has happened. Why aren't people talking about guns and Native American issues and whatever the f*ck is happening to the children of the US? Because now it's all about distracting a very dumb populace with knee-jerk issues. People don't even particularly care that we're at war. What they really care about is gay marriage. In fact I bet most Americans would rather see a son or daughter die in Iraq before marrying someone of the same gender. Sorry to be such a little ray of sunshine tonight. I'm actually in a pretty good mood, but just so weary of manipulation by spin thugs and the whole myth of the liberal media. - --Smurf NP: No TV __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:59:40 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: I love this list! (NJC) > P.S. I am wondering if many people will not even recognize me since it's > been so long since I've posted a thing! Ashara? Ashara who? ; ) Lori, lurking in Bethesda ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:58:55 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Come In From The Cold Wow Hell, nice analysis! I think you have something there. Your interpretation of the 'bonfires' is totally new (to me) and giving me some food for thought. Sometimes you think you can't get any more out of a song than you already have and someone comes along and shows you you couldn't be farther from the truth. Thanks! Jenny hell wrote: I feel your leg under the table Leaning into mine I feel renewed I feel disabled By these bonfires in my spine I don't know who the arsonist was Which incendiary soul But all I ever wanted Was just to come in from the cold The queen of duality strikes again - she could just be talking about new love here or is it the post-polio syndrome, ie. disabled by the pain in her back? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:06:58 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: I love this list! (NJC) I looked at some old JMDL emails and there once was a long time ago a member named Ashara . She is like a really old member though, when she joined, it seems, Joni was still doing new music and touring. :-) Vince - -------------- Original message -------------- > > P.S. I am wondering if many people will not even recognize me since it's > > been so long since I've posted a thing! > > Ashara? Ashara who? > > ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:09:21 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo and massacre > The sheer brilliance of the right's manipulation of > the media is beautifully illustrated by the fact that > so many people are distracted by this > right-to-live-or-die case on the day after the latest > school massacre -- with nearly as many people dead as > Columbine -- has happened. You're right (as you often are), Smurf. Yesterday I visited the Washington Post's website (as I usually do at least once a day), and I *almost* didn't bother to read the story about the Minnesota shooting. Then I thought, "What does that say about me? Have I become that jaded?" It's sad that I have to catch myself to make sure that I don't become that jaded, that immune to caring. If I, who believe I care a great deal about many things, have to catch myself, what are other people doing (or not doing)? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:19:28 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: (NJC) Speaking of religion ... Why Does God Hate Caribou? Drill for oil and screw Alaska's wildlife? Why, sure, all part of the imminent Rapture! By Mark Morford God wants oil. This is the message. This is the belief. God wants more oil and also uranium and coal and iron and nuclear waste and whatever the hell else we want to pump into or out of this godforsaken lump of floating space rock. Word to the GOP. In other words, God wants us, if the happily bleak and decidedly nasty interpretation of Bible verse currently extolled by the rabid evangelical mind-set now mauling the American political and social landscape is to be believed, to use up the Earth however we see fit and stomp all over this pointless ecological blob with our macho SUVs and manly tanks and badass army boots because it's all just one giant disposable sandbox o' fun anyway, right? Hey, it's all part of the Master Plan to destroy the Earth and smite our enemies and hasten the arrival of the Rapture. Didn't you know? Rest of article here: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/03/23/notes032305.DTL Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:01:43 GMT From: "Ruth Davis" Subject: Re: NJC Hypocrite What is the Stephen Stills case? My feeling about the Schiavo situation is that if this were a black woman, no one would give a rat's ass. I also found out that Bush, while he was governor of Texas, signed into law a bill that gave the state the right to discontinue life support in situations like this, over the protests of the family, if the family could no longer pay for the care of the patient. Talk about hypocrisy. Ruth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:03:38 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Travelogue vs Both Sides Now At my not so new job anymore I can play music in my cubicle with the headphones on. A small perk, but appreciated. Having played a series of classical ablums, I am now on the Mitchell ouevre. Both Sides Now sounds better than I remembered it. But I like it less than I rememebered because - while Joni does a fine job (better than I remembered) on the standards, it seems that I prefer Joni doing Joni and not the other stuff. Travelogue which I never liked - finally found out where the name came from, duh, while listening to Amelia - actually works quite well while working in the cubicle. "All these jack offs in the office" sure is an interesting line... (Tidbit: in Chicago only thew word is "jag off"). I'd say more but my lunch party is here... Vince - -- http://www.southsiders.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:05:24 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC burial, your body I am signed up to be an organ donor, and I have no problem donating the rest of my body to medical science, and I guess I should find out how to do that. I would, however, like for just a smidgen of my body (a toe, perhaps?) to be cremated and scattered into the wind near my mom's grave at St. Jacob's Cemetary in Cairo, Ohio. It's a lovely little cemetary on a hill. The headstones face east and overlook farms and barns. Very peaceful. Many of my family are buried there. I would also like a small marker to be placed near my mom's headstone, with this inscription (which will be familiar to all of you): We all come and go unknown Each so deep and superficial Between the forceps and the stone Lori, wondering how to go about having my request honored ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:22:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Re: Travelogue vs Both Sides Now I've always appreciated Joni's music under certain conditions which are: 1) a leedle beet stoned 2) headphones on as I don't smoke ANYTHING anymore no. 1 is outta the question. Using headphones especially for the orchestral stuff is the way forward. Even for albums like DED or CMIARS that's the method of choice. Or, using my housemates dvd player which sends it stereo around the room to 5 speakers. Like you, I'm glad that work allow me to download things to iTunes and listen to stuff sharing it with other macs (i.e. learning new music, not copying it p2p which you can't do at the office as they get anal about breach of copyright. Which I do to. ) Anyway Much Joni JamieZoob --- vince wrote: > At my not so new job anymore I can play music in my > cubicle with the headphones on. A small perk, but > appreciated. > > Having played a series of classical ablums, I am now > on the Mitchell ouevre. > > Both Sides Now sounds better than I remembered it. > But I like it less than I rememebered because - > while Joni does a fine job (better than I > remembered) on the standards, it seems that I prefer > Joni doing Joni and not the other stuff. > > Travelogue which I never liked - finally found out > where the name came from, duh, while listening to > Amelia - actually works quite well while working in > the cubicle. "All these jack offs in the office" > sure is an interesting line... (Tidbit: in Chicago > only thew word is "jag off"). > > I'd say more but my lunch party is here... > > Vince > -- > http://www.southsiders.net > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:28:15 -0500 From: "McMillan Brad" Subject: Re: Come In From The Cold Hell; I think you're on the money. Funny you posting that. I was listening to 'Hits' in the car and concentrating on some other cuts when all of a sudden CIFTC got into me. Something about the image of 14 yr old Joni at her first dance, touched something old in me, the memory of those first awkward moments of something like intimacy, the electricity in our fingers... Then the rythym. I hear a cha-cha beat. Suddenly, I saw Joni dancing the cha-cha, a dance that is all heat and touching alternated with pulling back apart, perfect for lyrics! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "hell" To: "JMDL" Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 7:39 AM Subject: Come In From The Cold > Time for some lyric analysis... > > On a recent 7-hour drive, I loaded my MP3 player with some Joni songs (among > other artists) and had time to really listen to the lyrics for a change. > > I was struck by how autobiographical CIFTC seems, and how it almost appears > to be a narrative of Joni's career/life in parts: > > Back in 1957 > We had to dance a foot apart > And they hawk-eyed us from the sidelines > Holding their rulers without a heart > And so with just a touch of our fingers > I could make our circuitry explode > All we ever wanted > Was just to come in from the cold > > Obviously those dances she went to as a child were strictly chaperoned! But > from other interviews, etc. they seem to be a very fond memory from her > past. > > We really thought we had a purpose > We were so anxious to achieve > We had hope > The world held promise > For a slave to liberty > Freely I slaved away for something better > And I was bought and sold > And all I ever wanted > Was to come in from the cold > > At the start of Joni's career, particularly around the time of the Woodstock > festival the youth were all about "changing the world" and "making a > difference". Joni really worked hard at her career, but she became another > victim of commercialism in some respects, and that idealism was lost along > the way. She really exposed herself emotionally with Blue, and then "burned > out" with the subsequent touring and promotion, prompting the retreat to BC > where most of FTR was written. > > I feel your leg under the table > Leaning into mine > I feel renewed > I feel disabled > By these bonfires in my spine > I don't know who the arsonist was > Which incendiary soul > But all I ever wanted > Was just to come in from the cold > > The queen of duality strikes again - she could just be talking about new > love here or is it the post-polio syndrome, ie. disabled by the pain in her > back? > > I am not some stone commission > Like a statue in a park > I am flesh and blood and vision > I am howling in the dark > Long blue shadows of the jackals > Are falling on a pay phone by the road > Oh, all they ever wanted > Was to come in from the cold > > She's not a commercial product, she's a real person. Could "howling in the > dark" be a reference to "Dog Eat Dog"? Or perhaps it's a coyote, or a Wolf > That Lives In Lindsay ;o) It could also be a less obvious reference to the > critics on the release of Mingus - those "jackals" ready to pounce. She's > also evolved as a person, and her catalogue has evolved as well - she's not > going to play the same old songs every concert, ie. she's moving, not a > statue. > > Is this just vulgar electricity > Is this the edifying fire > (it was so pure) > Does your smile's covert complicity > Debase as it admires > (just a flu with a temperature) > Are you just checking out your mojo > Or am I just fighting off growing old > (just a high fever) > All I ever wanted > Was just to come in from the cold > > This may be a reference to WTRF, her "electric" album, which was also a > tribute to love ("it was so pure"), but which didn't quite have the impact > she expected. An unusual turn in her career, but understandable after the > perceived "failure" of Mingus. Time to do something completely different, > although she appears to be second-guessing it a little - maybe a hint of a > mid-life crisis ;o) > > I know we never will be perfect > Never entirely clear > (when the moon shines) > We get hurt and we just panic > And we strike out > Out of fear > (you were only being kind) > I fear the sentence of this solitude > 200 years on hold > (for my loving crime) > Oh and all we ever wanted > Was just to come in from the cold > > Joni has always seemed to perceive herself to be a "pioneer" of woman in the > music industry (with some justification), and has made some harsh statements > about her "peers" over the years. Maybe she felt threatened at times, and > that anger was her defense mechanism? But she seems to be a little lonely > out on that limb all by herself... > > When I thought life had some purpose > Then I thought I had some choice > (I was running blind) > And I made some value judgments > In a self-important voice > (I was outa line) > But then absurdity came over me > And I longed to lose control > (into no mind) > Oh all I ever wanted > Was just to come in from the cold > > Maybe a reference to taking risks in her career, with Mingus and/or WTRF? > She also ventured into more politically-charged waters with DED and CMIARS. > Maybe she really just wanted to forget about being "meaningful" or > "political" (as people had come to expect) and have fun with her music, but > the few times she did ("Dancin' Clown" for example) she was panned by the > critics and fans. > > Obviously these are just my own opinions, but I lost count of how many times > I listened to this song recently - still one of my favourites. The last two > lines of the chorus say it all though: "All I ever wanted, was just to come > in from the cold." Be accepted and loved - which is what all of us really > want. Joni just says it better. Honestly, I think she can say more in one > song, than most people can in an entire career! > > I'd be interested in anyone else's opinions? > > > Hell > _________________________________________ > "To have great poets, there must be great > audiences too" - Walt Whitman > > Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:29:30 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: FW: Mary Gauthier NJC hi >>>kate wrote >>>> I have been raving about her for years, i think you were one of the major reasons i got into mary. i first heard her on village records sampler disc - it is a really, really good compilation - but her song about the sugarcane (i really should start taking note of song names) just stood out & grabbed my attention. when i saw it was mary gauthier, the name sounded vaguely familiar - so i came back & asked the list if anyone knew anything about her. got a couple of positive responses, - seem to recollect you were one of them. so i went out & bought her entire catalog - no regrets. (funny how even kinda ordinary phrases acquire new significance cause joni said them) i was reading a really interesting interview about her the other day (unfortunately i cant post the link - my web access is off 'cause i exceded my monthly bandwidth). a runaway from home at 15, been through detox, studied philiosophy, & been a successful resterauteur. amazingly enough, pretty much a newcomer to the music business. i was especially intrigued by her approach to songwriting. she believes in writing, then rewrite after rewrite. apparently "i drink" alone went through something like 300 rewrites!!!!! then she obviously wasnt happy with the original, & re released it on her latest. ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:31:53 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Travelogue vs Both Sides Now Rock vs. Hard Place Shit vs. Shinola Six of one vs. Half a dozen of the other :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:53:07 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Mary Gauthier NJC > i was especially intrigued by her approach to songwriting. she believes in > writing, then rewrite after rewrite. apparently "i drink" alone went through > something like 300 rewrites!!!!! A great song. And so deceivingly simple. She so reminds me of Lucinda, but better! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:58:48 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: Googlefight! Travelogue vs Both Sides Now Travelogue emerges as the clear winner with 1,270,000 results vs BSN's measly 133,000 results http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22Both+Sides+Now%22&w rd2=Travelogue ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:03:02 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Mary Gauthier NJC Hey I love Mary G. but I love Lucinda, too! Lucinda's Fillmore live CD is finally coming out in May & I'm thrilled because I was at one of those Fillmore shows. Sounds like both of them are perfectionists! - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Notaro Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 12:53 PM To: ron; Kate Bennett; Joni List Subject: Re: Mary Gauthier NJC > i was especially intrigued by her approach to songwriting. she believes in > writing, then rewrite after rewrite. apparently "i drink" alone went through > something like 300 rewrites!!!!! A great song. And so deceivingly simple. She so reminds me of Lucinda, but better! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:07:21 -0500 From: Gary Z Subject: Recording Session in May Hello all, I apologize in advance for not marking this NJC, but I am hoping to reach as many of you as possible with this post. I am due to travel to Nashville in early May to do my next recording session, and would appreciate the list's ideas of songs to record. It can be Joni songs or non-Joni songs. I will certainly take any suggestions into consideration, and would also especially be interested in hearing from the songwriters on the list. If you have a song that you have written that you might like to hear someone else record, I'd be most happy to listen to any songs you may choose to send me. Thanks for any input you may have for me! Best regards, Gary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:06:50 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: RE: Travelogue vs Both Sides Now <> per googlefight, it's more like 1,270,000 of one vs. 11,300,000 of the other! their winner? both sides now. as for me, i'm with you, richard. blech. cindy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:14:52 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Travelogue vs Both Sides Now My opposite results came from putting "Both Sides Now" in quotation marks. - -----Original Message----- From: Cynthia Vickery [mailto:cvickery@danielrealty.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 1:07 PM To: Richard Flynn Cc: joni@smoe.org; 'vince' Subject: RE: Travelogue vs Both Sides Now <> per googlefight, it's more like 1,270,000 of one vs. 11,300,000 of the other! their winner? both sides now. as for me, i'm with you, richard. blech. cindy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:25:02 -0500 From: Justalittlebreen@aol.com Subject: Unlike Diana Krall, I'm Not Coming Through (njc) Hi, all, This is just a test -- I've been trying to post through my new Screen name , and they're not coming through to the digests (for the last three days). I suspect that this may be because I'm sposta do something at the jmdl website, and I'm going to go there next, but if anyone sees this and can help me out, I'd be much obliged. Thanks, Walt , formerly , now ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:26:47 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: NJC Hypocrite I would love to know more about this! Vince - -------------- Original message -------------- I also found out that Bush, while he was governor > of Texas, signed into law a bill that gave the state the right to discontinue > life support in situations like this, over the protests of the family, if the > family could no longer pay for the care of the patient. Talk about hypocrisy. > > Ruth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:48:32 -0500 From: "McMillan Brad" Subject: Re: Unlike Diana Krall, I'm Not Coming Through (njc) Walt; My guess is that since you appear to have changed ISP's, JMDL isn't recognizing your new 'name'. Try going to the page where you sign up for what lists you want to receive from, etc., and plug in your new address everywhere. Wondered what happened to you. brad - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 1:25 PM Subject: Unlike Diana Krall, I'm Not Coming Through (njc) > Hi, all, > > This is just a test -- I've been trying to post through my new Screen name , and they're not coming through to the digests (for the last three days). I suspect that this may be because I'm sposta do something at the jmdl website, and I'm going to go there next, but if anyone sees this and can help me out, I'd be much obliged. > > Thanks, > > Walt , > formerly , > now ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:47:28 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: NJC Hypocrite > I would love to know more about this! > > Vince From today's Molly Ivin's column: For your information, while he was governor of Texas, Bush signed the Advanced Directives Act in 1999, which gives hospitals the right to remove life support in cases where there is no possibility of revival, when the family cannot pay, no matter what the family's wishes are in the matter. In Texas, you can only live in a persistent vegetative state if you are accepted in one of the few institutions that provide such care, or if your family is both willing and able to take care of you. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:54:38 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC Hypocrite > In Texas, you can only live in a persistent vegetative state if you are > accepted in one of the few institutions that provide such care, or if your > family is both willing and able to take care of you. What else would you expect from the state that leads the U.S. in executions? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:28:12 -0500 From: "Anne Sandstrom" Subject: who is Terri Schiavo? (njc) From the subject line, you're probably wondering what rock I've been living under. Oh, I've heard the debates, watched the news, read the posts on this list, and all. But how many people can actually tell me anything about HER? I've searched the web. But still have no clue who she was when she was healthy - her favorite food, what she hoped for and dreamed about, what music she loved, what tv shows she enjoyed... It breaks my heart that her legacy is a series of videotapes that show her in a hospital bed, with eyes that are either blank or beseeching (depending on your point of view). Sure, I have an opinion about the issues. But somehow, the issues seem to be all that matter, not the person. (I'm not judging anyone who has voiced their opinion - just offering my own perspective.) lots of love, Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:56:37 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: brain stem, njc Jenny wrote: I love the brain (though i'm a little frustrated with mine). I'm strictly a hobbyist (i.e. I read lay-person books on the matter), but if I had life to live over again I'd become a neuroscientist This is great Jenny! You don't have to be a doctor to be a neuroscientist. There are always ways to get involved. My first job in a lab was on a voluntary basis so I could go and come when I pleased and see how I liked being in a lab. There is an annual meeting of the Society for Neuroscience that is really awesome to go to. Check out the SFN website: _http://web.sfn.org/_ (http://web.sfn.org/) Thanks everybody for this discussion. Sure enough, this morning one of the 160 med students brought up Terri Schiavo and quite a crowd listened in as we discussed the neuro possibilities. I didn't have to think much on my feet because I had already thought it out for our recent JMDL discussions. With love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:09:04 +0000 From: littlebreen@comcast.net Subject: The Head Cabbage in a Persistent Vegetative State (njc) Hi, gang, Well, hopefully, now that I came out of my fog long enough to realize I had to re-register at jmdl under my new e-mail/screen name, my postings will get through. BIG FAVOR: I hate to trouble y'all, but would anyone i sent a copy of a jmdl posting to over the last three days (say, since Sunday 3/20) and who can still find it, please send a copy of it to me here at this address? I wouldn't have to request this, of course, if I had familaired myself with the different parameters of sending and keeping copies of sent e-mail here in the wonderful new world of comcast dsl. I love *using* new technology, I just hate when it gets in my way by not dwimming (doing what I mean [it to do], i.e., reading my mind). Regarding the Schiavo case, one of the things I sent this morning that I think may be lost in the ether is mny speculation that the Prizdint's interest in the Schiavo case is that he is, himself, in a persistent vegetative state, and, as I'm sure others have pointed out, if life were so precious to him, why does Texas have the highest execution rate in the country? People whose most intimate caretaker are not allowed to make decisions as to the mode of departure of their beloved are considered monsters, while they can't fry 'em up fast enough in the Priz's state. And speaking of most intimate caretakers, if marriage is so sacred that it must be kept from being permitted to non-heterosexuals, then how come Mr. Schiavo's right to make this decision is so easily trod over by these God-fearing Christians (if I were they, I'd fear God, too). A little grumbly this morning, but love to y'all, Walt Let the walls go tumbling down Falling on the ground And all the dogs go running free The wild and gentle dogs Kenneled in me ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:26:05 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo and massacre Excellent point regarding recurring Republican tactic #1: Distraction. In fact, while these compassionate folks were interupting their Easter break (does anybody else get one?) to weigh in on Ms Schiavo, they were cutting Medicare. Was that on the news? Smurf wrote: > The sheer brilliance of the right's manipulation of > the media is beautifully illustrated by the fact that > so many people are distracted by this > right-to-live-or-die case on the day after the latest > school massacre -- with nearly as many people dead as > Columbine -- has happened. > > Why aren't people talking about guns and Native > American issues and whatever the f*ck is happening to > the children of the US? > > Because now it's all about distracting a very dumb > populace with knee-jerk issues. People don't even > particularly care that we're at war. What they really > care about is gay marriage. In fact I bet most > Americans would rather see a son or daughter die in > Iraq before marrying someone of the same gender. > > Sorry to be such a little ray of sunshine tonight. I'm > actually in a pretty good mood, but just so weary of > manipulation by spin thugs and the whole myth of the > liberal media. > > --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:33:01 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: who is Terri Schiavo? (njc) Somewhere along the way I learned and cannot supply the source that she was very concerned about body image and had eating disorders picked up as she worked hard to lose/keep off weight - it was her purging after every meal that was the cause, it is believed, of the potassium shortage that caused the medical incident that left her brain deprived of oxygen long enough to do the damage done - so there is an irony that a woman who was starving herself... etc. And that is all that I can add to the knowlegde of who is Terry Schiavo. The aptness of your question is that in many ways this has ceased to be about her. - -------------- Original message -------------- > From the subject line, you're probably wondering what rock I've been living > under. Oh, I've heard the debates, watched the news, read the posts on this > list, and all. > > But how many people can actually tell me anything about HER? I've searched the > web. But still have no clue who she was when she was healthy - her favorite > food, what she hoped for and dreamed about, what music she loved, what tv shows > she enjoyed... It breaks my heart that her legacy is a series of videotapes that > show her in a hospital bed, with eyes that are either blank or beseeching > (depending on your point of view). > > Sure, I have an opinion about the issues. But somehow, the issues seem to be all > that matter, not the person. (I'm not judging anyone who has voiced their > opinion - just offering my own perspective.) > > lots of love, > Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:35:23 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: NJC Hypocrite Damn you Jerry Notaro for implying that G W Bush is anything but a compassionate conversavative. He would never place money over people's health issues. He is pro life. Retract your antiBush lies now. (or not) - -------------- Original message -------------- > > I would love to know more about this! > > > > Vince > > From today's Molly Ivin's column: > > > For your information, while he was governor of Texas, Bush signed the > Advanced Directives Act in 1999, which gives hospitals the right to remove > life support in cases where there is no possibility of revival, when the > family cannot pay, no matter what the family's wishes are in the matter. In > Texas, you can only live in a persistent vegetative state if you are > accepted in one of the few institutions that provide such care, or if your > family is both willing and able to take care of you. > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:45:24 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: who is Terri Schiavo? (njc) - --- Anne Sandstrom wrote: > From the subject line, you're probably wondering > what rock I've been living under. Oh, I've heard the > debates, watched the news, read the posts on this > list, and all. > > But how many people can actually tell me anything > about HER? I've searched the web. But still have no > clue who she was when she was healthy - her favorite > food, what she hoped for and dreamed about, what > music she loved, what tv shows she enjoyed... It > breaks my heart that her legacy is a series of > videotapes that show her in a hospital bed, with > eyes that are either blank or beseeching (depending > on your point of view). > > Sure, I have an opinion about the issues. But > somehow, the issues seem to be all that matter, not > the person. (I'm not judging anyone who has voiced > their opinion - just offering my own perspective.) > > lots of love, > Anne Anne, I think you've summed it all up very well. I've been thinking about this and other media things, and Smurf's comments as well, and I think it's very interesting how the media latch on to one or two stories over others; how so much is driven by spin and messaging; and also how sometimes the media try to make things personal (and whether or not that works). We are overwhelmed with information, good, bad and indifferent, everywhere we go. Sometimes it's difficult to sort the valid, useful information that we need to help us get on in life, from the junk, the misinformation and the out-and-out lies. For example, there have been a few posts that say that Terri Schiavo is basically dead, and others that say she is responsive. None of us has a clue about this, and we're at the mercy of the media and the opinions of others. It's difficult to know what is true in this and what is merely someone's opinion, much less what is a rumour that has been passed on and that, because it appears in the media somewhere, comes across as truth. I think sometimes the media glom onto this stuff in the beginning in order to make things personal for readers (imagine how the husband feels... imagine how the parents feel... imagine what, if anything, might be going on in Terri's head... depending on their particular slant/point of view... maybe some of them really are trying to be objective about it.) Then the whole thing mushrooms from there and gets out of control. Up until a few days ago, I had never heard of Terri Schiavo. Now, it seems, everyone has an opinion about it. Anyway, speaking of poorly functioning brains... mine is functioning really poorly right now, so I think I'll just leave it at that. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:50:15 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: NJC burial, your body > P.S. Did you hear that Demi Moore is preggers? and that that old fart Paul McCartney is going to be a father again? What is up with that!!! Great, they can all change their diapers together. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:51:44 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: I love this list! (NJC) > Hugs, > Ashara, the torrent addicted one > > P.S. I am wondering if many people will not even recognize me since it's > been so long since I've posted a thing! Oh yeah, isn't she that babe that started the jonifests and made all those video trees? I've heard of her..... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:49:24 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: brain stem, njc - --- LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: > Thanks everybody for this discussion. Sure enough, > this morning one of the > 160 med students brought up Terri Schiavo and quite > a crowd listened in as we > discussed the neuro possibilities. I didn't have > to think much on my feet > because I had already thought it out for our recent > JMDL discussions. > See how useful we are? Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:59:08 -0500 From: "McMillan Brad" Subject: Re: NJC burial, your body I guess there's nothing like having a woman young enough to be your daughter and then actually being able to impregnate her to bolster one's denial about old age. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Remote" To: "Catherine McKay" ; Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 2:50 PM Subject: Re: NJC burial, your body > > P.S. Did you hear that Demi Moore is preggers? and that that old fart Paul McCartney is going to be a father again? What is up with that!!! > > Great, they can all change their diapers together. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:09:58 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: not eating/end of life issue njc from today's local paper Those who've been through it feel end-of-life issues keenly Wednesday, March 23, 2005 By Jeff Alexander CHRONICLE STAFF WRITER The raging debate over whether to reinsert Terry Schiavo's feeding tube has resurrected painful memories for Muskegon resident Nancy McCarthy, whose husband died from kidney and liver failure 22 months ago. Rich McCarthy was 56 when he died. There came a time in McCarthy's valiant struggle against failing organs -- which included four kidney transplants and one liver transplant -- when he faced the incomprehensibly difficult decision of surrendering to terminal illness. Nancy McCarthy, who is president and chief executive officer of Hackley Visiting Nurse Services and Hospice, said she and her husband never considered using a feeding tube to prolong his life once it was clear he would not recover from his fifth organ transplant. Advertisement "There's no way I would have prescribed a feeding tube and prolonged his agony," said McCarthy, of Muskegon. "I still miss him terribly, but would I have wanted him to live in pain? Absolutely not." Despite her unambiguous stance against the use of a feeding tube to assist her dying husband, McCarthy said she has "great compassion for both sides" in the Schiavo case. "I can understand the parents' agony and I can understand the husband who really believes he's following his wife's wishes," McCarthy said. "That's all we can do -- try to follow the wishes of the ones we love. In the end, it's God who decides when it's time for us to go." McCarthy said dying after relying on a feeding tube can be more painful because the lungs often fill with fluid as the patient's organs fail. Without a feeding tube, terminally ill or comatose patients can die peacefully and without pain, she said. "What people don't realize is that pumping food and fluids into a body makes death painful -- it's uncomfortable for the person dying and for the family members," McCarthy said. "The body's natural tendency is to stop feeding itself when it comes to that point of transition (to death) ... people can slip out of this world very gently." Local Hospice officials said the Schiavo case underscores the need for all adults to declare a patient care advocate and assign durable power of attorney to a relative or friend. Those documents make it clear what type of treatment a person desires when incapacitated; Terry Schiavo never completed that paperwork before heart problems sent her into a coma 15 years ago. Bob Scolnik, a Hospice supporter and Muskegon County commissioner, said his late mother opted against high-tech medical procedures that could have prolonged her life by about a month as she struggled with cancer in 1994. Scolnik, a Republican, said he thinks the Schiavo family, Right-to-Life advocates and members of Congress were wrong to press for the reinsertion of Terry Schiavo's feeding tube. "There just comes a time when it's not right to prolong a life," Scolnik said. "If it wasn't for this machinery, she would die; God would take her back." Scolnik said he disagrees with Republicans, including President Bush, who have gone to extraordinary legal and political lengths to keep Schiavo alive. "I'm a Republican but sometimes I want to say, 'What are they doing?' " Scolnik said. "I don't think Congress should have gotten involved in this case. I think it was a political issue and they were playing to the (conservative) right wing of the Republican Party." Mary Anne Gorman, executive director of Hospice of Muskegon-Oceana, said a recent survey found that less than one-third of Muskegon County residents polled had completed the legal paperwork necessary to designate a patient advocate and assign durable power of attorney. She said the failure to get those documents in order before a medical crisis occurs is the key to avoiding family feuds over the type of treatment that is appropriate for a loved one. "Because death and dying is hard for people to deal with, I think it's human nature to procrastinate," Gorman said. "I think the lesson learned from this (Schiavo) case is that it's important for anyone over 18 to have an advance medical care plan in place." ) 2005 Muskegon Chronicle. - -- http://www.southsiders.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:33:11 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: who is Terri Schiavo? (njc) here's an interview with her husband, who may know who terri schiavo is... http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/20/Tampabay/Schiavo___Come_down__.shtml PINELLAS PARK - Angered by the latest political developments in Washington, Michael Schiavo said Saturday that it isn't just the Florida governor who should visit his wife to learn about the case. Jeb Bush's brother, President Bush, should visit Terri Schiavo, too, he said. "Come down, President Bush," Schiavo said in a telephone interview. "Come talk to me. Meet my wife. Talk to my wife and see if you get an answer. Ask her to lift her arm to shake your hand. She won't do it." She won't, Schiavo said, because she can't. He made a similar offer to the governor last week, saying lawmakers interferring in his wife's life know nothing about the case. So far, Gov. Bush hasn't responded to the offer. President Bush has indicated he will sign any federal legislation to keep Terri Schiavo alive. Weary after an emotional visit with his wife, Schiavo said he is astonished that politicians want to interfere in such a private matter. "Instead of worrying about my wife, who was granted her wishes by the state courts the past seven years, they should worry about the pedophiles killing young girls," Schiavo said, referring to a local case. "Why doesn't Congress worry about people not having health insurance? Or the budget? Let's talk about all the children who don't have homes." He said U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, who is leading a charge to extend Terri Schiavo's life, is a "little slithering snake" pandering for votes. "To make comments that Terri would want to live, how do they know?" Schiavo said of the members of Congress who want to keep his wife alive. "Have they ever met her?" Schiavo said. "What color are her eyes? What's her middle name? What's her favorite color? They don't have any clue who Terri is. They should all be ashamed of themselves." Schiavo said he was going to stay at his wife's side through the entire ordeal and said he wouldn't back down in his fight to have her wishes carried out. "Terri died 15 years ago," Schiavo said, referring to the collapse and cardiac arrest that doctors say virtually destroyed her brain. "It's time for her to be with the Lord like she wanted to be." [Last modified March 20, 2005, 01:09:07] - --- Anne Sandstrom wrote: > > But how many people can actually tell me anything > about HER? I've searched the web. But still have no > clue who she was when she was healthy - her favorite > food, what she hoped for and dreamed about, what > music she loved, what tv shows she enjoyed... ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2005 #131 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)