From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2005 #129 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, March 23 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 129 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: NJC burial, your body [vince ] Re: NJC Schiavo [Deb Messling ] NJC Schiavo ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: NJC Schiavo ["Mark or Travis" ] DJRD ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: NJC Schiavo ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: NJC Schiavo [Bob Muller ] giving life after death NJC [mags h ] Urge for Compiling ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Open note to Joni Mitchell ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Open note to Joni Mitchell njc [jrmco1@aol.com] Christine Collister (a bit of Joni content here) ["Azeem" ] Re: DJRD [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: Prairie Songs [BRYAN8847@aol.com] RE: Prairie Songs ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Urge for Compiling [Reuben Bell ] Re: NJC burial, your body [Catherine McKay ] Re: brain stem, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: brain stem, njc [vince ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:08:12 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: NJC burial, your body Catherine McKay wrote: > >The Schiavo case points out very clearly that we all need to make a living will (and I haven't done this either). > A living will is essentially meaningless because it is not legally binding. In Michigan the document needed is called a Designation of Patient Advocate and to effect what one wants must contain specific instructions. Most states have something that has legal effect and a living will does not do it - that is a generic term and does not have legal effect unless it is state statute specific. > Like you, I sympathize with both sides in this. > I cannot claim that. My sympathy is with Terry and her husband Mchael, not with the parents. I have nothing for them that I wish to express here. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:25:35 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo >There are a few different issues floating around this case. The easiest >to deal with is the action of the GOP - it's obscene. I don't believe that >any of these bastards care one whit about Terry Schiavo. It's all about >political posturing, and I think Jesus would spit on them. Second, as Vince pointed out, removing feeding tubes is not that unusual, and I think the consensus of medical opinion is that someone in Terry's condition is beyond suffering. Is the religious right going to start insisting that we all be kept alive by heroic measures? That's a scary proposition. Let's remember that in removing a feeding tube the hospital would NOT be engaging in euthanasia, not even at the routine level of increasing a patient's morphine level to help them along, as they did with my sister. They would not be killing the patient; they would be allowing a natural death to proceed. Finally, this is going to sound unfair, but I want to talk about Terry's parents. They are people of strong faith - really? I have no faith; I'm an atheist, and I believe that when I die I'll be obliterated. That's a frightening thought, and I sometimes think I'd give any bunch of doctors carte-blanche to keep me alive artificially as long as possible, as I believe it's my only hope. But presumably, people of faith are hopeful of an outcome far better than life in a vegetative state. They are hopeful of an eternal life with God. I wonder why Terry's parents don't want to let their daughter go to the eternal bliss they believe in. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:45:14 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: NJC Schiavo Sad so sad... & so disgusting that some (not her family, the others) feel they have the right to play god & are using someone else's tragedy for their own political purposes... ironic that those who profess to be 'christian' have no concept of life after death & so are unwilling to let life & death take its natural course... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:47:33 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo Deb Messling wrote: > Is the religious right going to start insisting that we all be kept > alive by heroic measures? That's a scary proposition. Let's > remember that in removing a feeding tube the hospital would NOT be > engaging in euthanasia, not even at the routine level of increasing > a > patient's morphine level to help them along, as they did with my > sister. They would not be killing the patient; they would be > allowing a natural death to proceed. My problem with the protests of the religious right on this is that it seems contradictory to me. It seems to me that the feeding tube would be seen as interferring with the will of God. According to that view, it should never have been administered in the first place. I wonder why Terry's parents don't want to let their daughter go to the > eternal bliss they believe in. That's an excellent point, Deb. There is no easy answer on this one, I'm afraid. But personally I find it hard to believe that this poor woman has any kind of decent life. If it's true that she's beyond feeling any physical suffering then I think she should be allowed to leave her body which must be like a prison for her now. But, like Randy, I'm bothered by the fact that nobody can truly know what the woman feels and it seems that it would be more humane to give her something that would get it over with quickly. Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:50:24 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: DJRD Ric, I can see that. For me DJRD aims high and connects. I didn't hear Hejira until much later so maybe that's why I liked DJRD from the beginning- it was the first time I heard stuff like Joni & Jaco "barking" at each other. Jim Ric Robinson said, >I think DJRD is a good album but have this nagging feeling that it could've been great with a little less ambition, if that makes sense!> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:57:09 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo >Stephen Drake, of the disability rights group Not Dead Yet was saying yesterday on Democracy Now that most people who say they don't want to be kept alive artificially say so when they are healthy, and when they find themselves actually in that situation, they no longer feel that way.< my mom expressed these wishes for no artifical measures when she was diagnosed with als... she kept to them... she could have changed her mind but she did not... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:03:38 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo It's such a shame that we afford our pets more dignity & humanity in terms of ending their suffering than we are allowed to do for each other. And perhaps a good thing as most pets give us more unconditional love and loyalty than family - maybe that's a kind of justice. I've always said (even when I bought into it myself - I no longer do) that death is the true test of faith. Read a nice piece on the Schiavo case today: http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0321-20.htm Bob NP: Bruce Springsteen, "Point Blank" Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:11:17 -0800 (PST) From: mags h Subject: giving life after death NJC Richard and Julius, your posts have inspired me to write about another side of this tender issue. A couple of personal anecdotes...when my father died suddenly, two weeks after being diagnosed with a brain tumor, now nearly 15 years ago, my Mum and I said that they could take whatever they could from him if it meant helping someone to live. They refused because of his age. Funny thing is, I never saw my father as old, but I guess it was perceived just so. the second story is much more difficult to get into in part because it is still so fresh, as my family and I are still working toward adjusting to this one...anyway....my brother David died in August of 2003. Many of you may remember this because it was such a godawful shock to me that I was leaking out all over the place, including here. Anyway...we were told at the time that he died of an aneurism, and strangely enough, as painful as that was to comprehend, it somehow seemed a bit more acceptable than the truth that we most recently found out. Damn if he didnt die of head injuries as a result of a car accident, not ten minutes from his home. An accident. All of a sudden, those notsoancient wounds were ripped open all over again. A year and a half later, I hear my sister's voice telling me over the phone, on that dreadful August day; Dave is gone, no doubt will echo in my mind for a long while yet. Do we ever "get over it"?? Dave fought hard for his life. Damn he was stubborn! (strong leadership qualities run in the family ). The machines were turned off, and he still fought.His beautiful heart was so strong, it just wouldnt let go for a long while. And finally it did. Once they realized that Dave wasnt going to be Dave anymore, members of the family had a fast decision to make as far as organ donation was concerned. Those who were there with him while he took his last breath, said no. While I wasn't a part of the decision, for what it's worth, I still have no clue what I would have said. I have a feeling I would have agreed, for the same reasons that the family did. If this was someone else, I may have been quite confused at that decision which took no more than about 30 seconds to make. But it wasnt someone else, it was my brother, Dave. Making that decision was one of many bizarre, surreal moments/things that had to be done/decided, consequences of which continue to this day, as we try to reconcile, accept, adjust, whatever you want to call it. I dont know if this was the "right" decision because, rest assured, there was someone else waiting desperately for an organ that was once my brother's....I just dont know. I can't be rational/logical about this. My grief is deep, it resides at the cellular level. What I do know is that this is the way the scenario plays out sometimes. It's heartwrenching to be on either side, that much I know. Believe me, it's not easy and it's not something that makes sense to those who have lost their loved ones that may have been waiting for Dave, however, that's our story. yes, this is personal, and what else is there to do in life but relay our/yours/mine/his/herstory/ies. Hopefully, it will help someone facing a similar situation. Mags. np: silence Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:26:19 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Urge for Compiling There's a cliche that a woman redecorates her entire house when her "last" child moves out. Joni's songs, her children, aren't gestating anymore. She finds an outlet in making compilations. I don't have to buy them all; she's given me plenty. In France she'd be "a living treasure". Sincerely, Jim Someone else said, >I haven't joined in on this compilation discussion before, but I am starting to agree with some of you that Joni's compilation business seems lazy and motivated (and misguided) by greed - something I never thought I'd say about Joni Mitchell.> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:28:36 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Open note to Joni Mitchell Joni, you go, baby. Thanks for finally allowing "Speechless" to see daylight. I will buy the new one if you have re-visited "Paprika Plains", as promised. You have always delivered the goods. Sincerely, Jim L'Hommedieu (one of 10 straight men on the JMDL) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:00:46 -0500 From: jrmco1@aol.com Subject: Re: Open note to Joni Mitchell njc Sincerely, Jim L'Hommedieu (one of 10 straight men on the JMDL) 10.4 if we can work out some kind of 3/5 Compromise for Paz. :-) - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 01:03:44 -0000 From: "Azeem" Subject: Christine Collister (a bit of Joni content here) I know there are a number of admirers of The Isle of Mans greatest gift to the world on this list, even if none of them are quite as fervent as the undersigned, who considers her to be the finest singer on the planet. Anyway, Ive just been watching her new DVD, XX, issued to commemorate her 20 years in the music business. Its a lovely run through her ups and downs, including contributions from Richard Thompson and Clive Gregson, with loads of performance footage (much of it very grainy!) and some spectacular fashion and coiffeurial faux pas. Fans will love it, newbies will find it a great introduction to a beautiful artist. JONI CONTENT! Among the extras are a few full song performances, one of which is her glorious rendition of Shades of Scarlett Conquering. Even though its poor quality footage, just her head from a fixed camera, its totally riveting. The passion and love she puts into one of Jonis masterworks are a joy to behold. Bob, you have to get this DVD, for this reason if for no other! I went to see her a few nights ago, at the Half Moon in Putney. It was yet another great gig, including a few covers she hasnt performed much before, or at all - including Patty Griffins song Mary. Top stuff. I have been such a loyal fan/stalker over the last 18 years (yes!) that I was even asked to pose with Christine for a pic afterwards, which will show up on her website diary at some point. Zounds... Azeem in London NP: Christine Collister - Sad and Beautiful World - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.0 - Release Date: 21/03/2005 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:25:14 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo In a message dated 3/22/2005 6:50:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: > But, like > Randy, I'm bothered by the fact that nobody can truly know what the > woman feels and it seems that it would be more humane to give her > something that would get it over with quickly. > I feel the same way Randy and Mark. Living in Florida, I've been following this case for quite awhile now. The religious right has just sickened me by wanting to keep her in this vegetable state, when it was not her wishes. What got to me is when our newspaper went into detail what someone in Terri's condition goes through with starvation. i.e. day 4 her eyes will start to sink and mouth begins to dry up. It went on to describe up to 2 weeks. It really brought me to tears. I have no idea what she will feel, if anything. What really makes me upset is that it's such a political issue as many of you have mentioned. Even our ex-sherriff MacDougal (the same asshole that I posted about 5 years ago who used the Sheriff's website to share his religious beliefs on gays). He was arrested a few days ago for breaking the police barrier to try and feed Terri when they removed the feeding tube. I just hope she can rest in peace in a humane way. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:19:12 -0800 (PST) From: Smurf Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo and massacre The sheer brilliance of the right's manipulation of the media is beautifully illustrated by the fact that so many people are distracted by this right-to-live-or-die case on the day after the latest school massacre -- with nearly as many people dead as Columbine -- has happened. Why aren't people talking about guns and Native American issues and whatever the f*ck is happening to the children of the US? Because now it's all about distracting a very dumb populace with knee-jerk issues. People don't even particularly care that we're at war. What they really care about is gay marriage. In fact I bet most Americans would rather see a son or daughter die in Iraq before marrying someone of the same gender. Sorry to be such a little ray of sunshine tonight. I'm actually in a pretty good mood, but just so weary of manipulation by spin thugs and the whole myth of the liberal media. - --Smurf NP: No TV __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:47:49 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: DJRD Subject: DJRD Just listened to this again and was struck by a couple of things. 1. the scope is vast, possibly too vast. 2. Some of the musical ideas seem to have been more fully realised in = Mingus - I kept expecting Overture to break into God Must Be A Boogie = Man for instance. 3. Title track was very reminiscent of Coyote, which was odd since = Coyote pre-dates it and is considerably better. I think DJRD is a good album but have this nagging feeling that it = could've been great with a little less ambition, if that makes sense Coyote and DJRD were written at about the same time. I was at a concert in early '76 when Joni unveiled both of the songs, in a sort of medley. They were more similar at that time. DJRD had none of the percussive bass arrangement that it ended up with. Personally, I think DJRD in a remarkable, powerful song, perhaps not better than Coyote but on an entirely different level. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:55:47 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: Prairie Songs In a message dated 3/22/2005 12:01:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Well, they've announced it, the tracklist for SOAPG and there are a few > surprises (well, no, nothing new, I guess that would be a REAL surprise) but I > guess they seem to follow a historical trait rather than a geographical > placing. Tea Leaf Prophecy, while being > about her parents, could've been anywhere say in England in the 1940s for > example... and do Amazon never check their spelling? Don JAUN's recless > daughter? And still it's listed under PRARIE girl...Perhaps River was included cuz > of the front cover being a woman skating on a frozen river (but we know it's a > lake) and are we going to be treated to the full 7 mins of Come In From The > Cold like in Hits (or was it Misses?) as opposed to the edited 3 minute > version... Yes, Paprika Plains is there as predicted... good, good... can't wait > to see if it's the remixed version...and are there any paintings? I > would love the poster of the cd cover as it stands I guess but don't you > think that she's got rather big feet? Or is it the skates? DJRD is a surprise > (and co-incidental as it's been a topic of discussion this past week on the > jmdl). Yes, it's the remixed Paprika (perhaps the only reason for us old-timers to buy the CD), according to a little item in billboard.com today (sorry, don't have the link). Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:53:52 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Prairie Songs Drat! Now I have to buy it. Do you know why AMAZON is asking full list price of $18.98? Highway robbery for one friggin' song, I say! Even if it is a long song. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of BRYAN8847@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 9:56 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Prairie Songs In a message dated 3/22/2005 12:01:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Well, they've announced it, the tracklist for SOAPG and there are a few > surprises (well, no, nothing new, I guess that would be a REAL surprise) but I > guess they seem to follow a historical trait rather than a geographical > placing. Tea Leaf Prophecy, while being > about her parents, could've been anywhere say in England in the 1940s for > example... and do Amazon never check their spelling? Don JAUN's recless > daughter? And still it's listed under PRARIE girl...Perhaps River was included cuz > of the front cover being a woman skating on a frozen river (but we know it's a > lake) and are we going to be treated to the full 7 mins of Come In From The > Cold like in Hits (or was it Misses?) as opposed to the edited 3 minute > version... Yes, Paprika Plains is there as predicted... good, good... can't wait > to see if it's the remixed version...and are there any paintings? I > would love the poster of the cd cover as it stands I guess but don't you > think that she's got rather big feet? Or is it the skates? DJRD is a surprise > (and co-incidental as it's been a topic of discussion this past week on the > jmdl). Yes, it's the remixed Paprika (perhaps the only reason for us old-timers to buy the CD), according to a little item in billboard.com today (sorry, don't have the link). Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:01:27 -0500 From: Reuben Bell Subject: Re: Urge for Compiling Thats an interesting point, Jim. That actually makes sense...she's rearranging things to suit her current (wiser?) point of view... I may be one of the few people who actually kind of appreciates these reissues. The Geffen box set, which was just a plea (or a push) from Joni saying "hey, you dopes! You ignored this stuff the first time - I want you to HEAR it!" through the recent three. There may be some arrogance on her part, but you have to give her credit for her persistence and dedication to these works. Has any commercial artist ever pushed their back catalogue this hard just to make sure it has a second chance? I personally think that this is a fascinating period of her career. I hope that it is followed by some new music, but as someone mentioned in an earlier post - she's given me (us) so much good stuff over the years, I'm happy with what I have. Going to bed after a 15 hour day and a very successful concert with the DePauw Univ. Chamber Singers at my museum. Talented group of students! Reuben On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:26:19 -0500, Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > There's a cliche that a woman redecorates her entire house when her > "last" child moves out. Joni's songs, her children, aren't gestating > anymore. She finds an outlet in making compilations. I don't have to > buy them all; she's given me plenty. In France she'd be "a living > treasure". > > Sincerely, > Jim > > Someone else said, > >I haven't joined in on this compilation discussion before, but I am > starting > > to agree with some of you that Joni's compilation business seems lazy and > motivated (and misguided) by greed - something I never thought I'd say about > Joni Mitchell.> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:34:13 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC burial, your body The expression "Living will" was probably not the wrong one to use in this case. That's not a legal term. What we have here in the province of Ontario is a Power of Attorney for Property (deals with financial stuff) and a Power of Attorney for Personal Care (deals with your housing and health care). My older sister and I were named Power of Attorney for Personal Care in the event that my Dad became physically and/or mentally incapable of making decisions for himself. (He had Parkinsons Disease.) The Powers of Attorney are legal documents. The living will would be your written wishes about how you would want things handled in the event you became incapable, and would include such things as your directives about not wanting any extraordinary measures, including using advanced life support systems, in such a case. If you do appoint someone to be your P of A for Personal Care, you had better make damn sure they understand and agree with your directives. And just because it's legal here, doesn't make it legal in any other jurisdiction. And, I do sympathize with both sides in this case, presuming that both parties are sincere about what they believe is going on. I completely disagree with the government stepping in at this point. I believe the parents believe that what they're doing is right and for that, I feel for them. Unfortunately, some people don't know when to let go and it has gone beyond their wishes and become some kind of rallying cry for the Christian right who, ironically, don't have a problem with the death penalty. Ultimately, it's not our decision to make and once again, while we can express our opinions until the cows come home, it won't make a bit of difference. P.S. Did you hear that Demi Moore is preggers? and that that old fart Paul McCartney is going to be a father again? What is up with that!!! vince wrote: Catherine McKay wrote: > >The Schiavo case points out very clearly that we all need to make a living will (and I haven't done this either). > A living will is essentially meaningless because it is not legally binding. In Michigan the document needed is called a Designation of Patient Advocate and to effect what one wants must contain specific instructions. Most states have something that has legal effect and a living will does not do it - that is a generic term and does not have legal effect unless it is state statute specific. > Like you, I sympathize with both sides in this. > I cannot claim that. My sympathy is with Terry and her husband Mchael, not with the parents. I have nothing for them that I wish to express here. Vince Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:35:13 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: brain stem, njc Vince wrote: She is dead. There is nothing responsive in her case. A vegatable body has inarticulate undifferentiated movement and that is what has been videotaped Hi Vince, As a doctor who teaches medical students about the brain stem, I can say that having a living brain stem is far from being dead. In my opinion, for a person to have a brain stem that is functional as well as the thalamus and structures of the limbic system that are deep to the cerebral cortex and not have a functional cerebral cortex is to have a person trapped and unable to connect with the outer world, yet very much there mentally. The brain stem is much more complex than is the cerebral cortex and is the site action of drugs commonly given to treat mental illness. Pain, hungar, and thirst are thalamic functions. Sound localization and visual spacial functions are brain stem functions. To use these functions in communicating with the outer world requires the cerebral cortex. I agree that Terri Schiavo is in a vegetative state in the sense that she has central nervous system functions but no way of conveying these to the outer world. However, to conclude that a person without a functional cerebral cortex is prohibitted from having thoughts is rather presumptuous in my opinion. Thoughts most definitely exist yet are inaccessible to the outer world. The cerebral cortex diminishes as one goes down the evolutionary tree. Yet, "lower" organisms are not any less living than are humans. Visual and auditory input is processed in the brain stem before it enters the cerebral cortex. Having intact connections between the auditory and visual systems with the limbic system and thalamus, a person without a cerebral cortex could definitely receive auditory and visual input and respond with feelings although the person would be unable to express these to other people in a typical way. What we see is so limited in regard to what occurs in people like Terri Schiavo. I would say there is a good chance she has emotional turmoil over her husband's sadness and has the emotion of joy over her parents happiness when around her. I would also say she is experiencing hungar and thirst right now but can't express these. Too bad her parents and husband are at war. I can sympathize with both sides. The whole situation is very sad. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 01:02:14 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: brain stem, njc LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: > >Hi Vince, > > As a doctor who teaches medical students about the brain stem, > > I am not a doctor. I am a pastor first and foremost with an intense interest in clinical pastoral matters in this area. I disagree with your conclusions. To put it simply, I think she is as dead as dead can be from all that I know and this is not a shallow empty conclusion on my part. Yet neither of course is yours. And you have cogently expressed in the best possible way your disagreement with me in a way that is is very rare in any of these discussions. I will continue to differ strongly from your opinion, but I greatly respect you for your thoughtful post and insights and the respect and dignity that you bring (as always) to the discussion. Thank you. If all of the debate was conducted in the thoughtful and caring manner in which you have spoken, the vehemence might dissipate and we could all engage in more constructive dialogue. As much as I disagree with you, I profoundly thank you and value you for your insights into this difficult matter. God bless you. Vince ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2005 #129 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)