From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2005 #128 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, March 22 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 128 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #84 [ROBMSTEEN@aol.com] Re: dc joni fest? [Bill Dollinger ] bodies, njc ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Jonifest trains ["Laurent Olszer" ] NJC burial, your body ["David Henderson" ] Re: NJC burial, your body [LCStanley7@aol.com] SOAPRG song list, compilations ["David Henderson" ] Re: SOAPRG song list, compilations ["Mark or Travis" ] NJC Schiavo [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: SOAPRG song list, compilations ["Steven Polifka" ] Re: NJC burial, your body [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: NJC Schiavo [Jerry Notaro ] Re: bodies, njc [jrmco1@aol.com] Re: NJC Schiavo [Randy Remote ] Re: NJC burial, your body [Randy Remote ] Re: NJC Schiavo [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] njc hypocrite [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] Re: NJC Schiavo [Jerry Notaro ] Re: NJC Schiavo [Randy Remote ] Re: NJC I Chose to Die [revrvl@comcast.net (vince)] RE: NJC burial, your body [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 04:07:31 EST From: ROBMSTEEN@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #84 Re: Coyote/DJRD: Sure, there are whiffs of the Coyote riff on DJRD, but surely the genesis is Black Crow? Come to think of it, Talk To Me and DJRD are both variations on that guitar theme. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:46:04 -0500 From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: dc joni fest? There are no details, we would need to discuss the possibility and have input from those interested. Right now it is just an idea. On Mar 21, 2005, at 12:25 PM, Sherelle Smith wrote: > I'm interested! Please let me know the details! > > Sherelle > > > Bill wrote: > > Richard Flynn and I were discussing how > great it would be to have a mini joni fest > in dc. I know we had mentioned this before > but don't think anything was moving along. > I know a great cafe that would host it, > if people are interested, let's discuss. > > Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:59:59 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: bodies, njc - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Richard Flynn" >As someone who had a wife die waiting for a liver, and a sister who is >alive >and thriving for over 8 years after a double-lung transplant, let me second >this encouragement to everyone to become organ donors. As my sister's >bumper sticker says, "Don't take your organs to heaven, because heaven >knows >we need them down here!" I am all for organ donation. . I'm signed up for that too. . . who ever gets to me first, I figure. . . but the thought of taking a secret walk in the forest my dying day is appealing . . . _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:47:59 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Jonifest trains Hi Festers There is a small contingent of cheap railroad tickets going on sale 4 months in advance. It'll cost only 19 euros to cross the country! Which means that tix for august 10 are going on sale early april, maybe even now. Info on www.idtgv.com or www.voyages-sncf.com or I can help. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:58:51 -0500 From: "David Henderson" Subject: NJC burial, your body LAURA WROTE: "Have you thought about donating your bodies to medicine? People who do this are recycling in a very life giving way. There are long waiting lists of those in need of organ donors. There really isn't a more selfless gift than donating one's body like this." Hi Laura - I agree! This has always seemed like a no-brainer to me. This is one of the greatest gifts we have to give - and it's free and it's painless. You give a body that you no longer have any possible use for (whether you like it or not) to medicine - to train new doctors, to support endless streams of research, to offer organs to those with failing organs. It's your chance to actually save lives, maybe even hundreds of lives, maybe even the lives of your own children and descendants, yet I read recently that less than 5% of Americans choose to agree to organ donation on their driver's license and ID forms. Further, it said that countries with the least educated populations are the least likely to donate organs to science. That means our lousy 5% would be in the top 25%, right? I don't get it. I know some people have religious objections, but I don't think Christians/Protestants/Catholics do, and Christians must make up at least 80% of our population, right (I'm guessing)? I assume agnostics and atheists would have no objection. Why don't more people agree with us? David NP Bright Eyes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:43:53 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC burial, your body David wrote: less than 5% of Americans choose to agree to organ donation on their driver's license and ID forms. Hi David! I had no idea the number was so low. I guess I'm in that minority. Why don't more people agree with us? I imagine some people don't even think about becoming an organ donor. However, in Arkansas when you get a driver's license, they ask you if you want to be so people have to think about it at least for that moment. It is easy to say "no" I guess. This makes me think about what is going on now with Terri Schiavo. I wonder if she is an organ donor? It is such a waste in my opinion to let a body die and just discard it. People puzzle me sometimes. It takes so many years to grow a body, yet people seem to think along the lines of when part of a body is dead the rest is supposed to die too regardless of whether what remains alive could benefit other people. Terri's being alive is benefitting her parents but seeminly cursing her husband. Death is an interesting topic. It is a very slow process on the cellular level. Even when a person is proclaimed "dead" by a physician, much of the body is still alive and takes hours and in some cases days to die. Loss of the ability to function as whole or relational part or independently seems to qualify the definition of "dead." But, for medical scientists like myself, that definition has some very grey areas. I used to collect surgical "waste" specimens from patients who had brain surgery for temporal lobe epilepsy. Usually what is extracted is thrown away. Instead we collected it and froze it in liquid nitrogen and later would thaw the cells and grow them in petri plates, glial and neuronal cell cultures. These cells would eventually exhaust their duplication... adult human cells have a limited number of doublings possible. To get cells in culture to become immortal cell lines, one has to introduce a virus such as the Sendai virus that will combine with the cell's DNA and transform the cell into what is considered to be cancer. Cancer cells for the most part are immortal. Anyway, life and death are not black and white in my opinion. A lot of good would be possible if more people agreed. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:44:27 -0500 From: "David Henderson" Subject: SOAPRG song list, compilations JAMIE WROTE: "On the whole a nice mix of old and new dontcha think? Something for everyone... the connoissuer, the fan, the newbie, the muso, the classicist, the jazzer, the folkie, the (aging) rocker, the fusion fan, the VG8 fan" I think that kind of variety is always a recipe for disaster, and I cannot possibly imagine that this bizarre song list will have any kind of organic feel to it to anyone. I just played cuts 3 through 7 back to back, and it feels and sounds more like a K-Tel collection than a cohesive or organic grouping. Ray's sounds shrill and silly on the heels of Cherakee Louise. Raised sounds inferior in production and silly on the heels of DJRD. And surely this odd mix will be offputting to anyone but hardcore fans like us who have no need for these compilations anyway since I'm sure we've all made more than enough of our own over the years. So what is Joni's point in making these compilations? Tlog definitely had potential to bring in new listeners, but I don't think SOAPG and Survival have any chance of doing that. Why doesn't she follow artists who make compilations for their FANS, the people who have supported them for years - compilations with outtakes and live cuts and alternate versions and hidden video segments, etc.? I haven't joined in on this compilation discussion before, but I am starting to agree with some of you that Joni's compilation business seems lazy and motivated (and misguided) by greed - something I never thought I'd say about Joni Mitchell. David NP The Killers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:24:26 -0500 From: "David Henderson" Subject: RE: NJC burial, your body I think that no matter what I might accomplish in life, I would still love to die knowing that my donated body might help cure AIDS or supply a working kidney for some guy on his death bed or supply a working eye for a woman who has been blind for years. I figure, what better way to go out? BTW Once this guy at work was telling me that often bodies go to "waste" while families and authorities at hospitals and funeral homes try to figure out what to do. He said it's important to put in your will/living will that you are an organ donor and to will your body to a specific medical school. It speeds up the whole process and makes sure you are able to accomplish the good deed you set out to accomplish. Regarding Terri Schiavo, you're right - "Terri's being alive is benefiting her parents but seemingly cursing her husband." My heart really goes out to both her parents and her husband. What is the right decision? I assume you would always want to honor the ill person's wishes, but what do you do when that person has not made their wishes clear? And what if the medicine is not clear? It must be agonizing. Of course, some people don't think you should honor the ill person's wishes. They think no one, including the ill person, has the right to end their life. That really complicates things. And now the whole thing has become politicized. They said yesterday on CNN that all of the parents' legal fees are being paid by two major, private Pro-Life donors because the hope of the Republicans on the far right is that this case will play an important part in the strategy to overturn Roe v. Wade during Bush's second term. What? I don't really completely follow this particular train of thought . . . maybe others know more about it. The other morning a congressman on CNN said 'obviously Terri's case is entangled to the roots with the anti-abortion agenda' or something very similar. There was nothing obvious to me; it had never occurred to me that one thing had to do with the other. Anyway, I'm rambling. Everyone donate those beautiful bodies and make the world a happier place! David -----Original Message----- From: LCStanley7@aol.com [mailto:LCStanley7@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 9:44 AM To: jdhenderson@nyc.rr.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: NJC burial, your body David wrote: less than 5% of Americans choose to agree to organ donation on their driver's license and ID forms. Hi David! I had no idea the number was so low. I guess I'm in that minority. Why don't more people agree with us? I imagine some people don't even think about becoming an organ donor. However, in Arkansas when you get a driver's license, they ask you if you want to be so people have to think about it at least for that moment. It is easy to say "no" I guess. This makes me think about what is going on now with Terri Schiavo. I wonder if she is an organ donor? It is such a waste in my opinion to let a body die and just discard it. People puzzle me sometimes. It takes so many years to grow a body, yet people seem to think along the lines of when part of a body is dead the rest is supposed to die too regardless of whether what remains alive could benefit other people. Terri's being alive is benefitting her parents but seeminly cursing her husband. Death is an interesting topic. It is a very slow process on the cellular level. Even when a person is proclaimed "dead" by a physician, much of the body is still alive and takes hours and in some cases days to die. Loss of the ability to function as whole or relational part or independently seems to qualify the definition of "dead." But, for medical scientists like myself, that definition has some very grey areas. I used to collect surgical "waste" specimens from patients who had brain surgery for temporal lobe epilepsy. Usually what is extracted is thrown away. Instead we collected it and froze it in liquid nitrogen and later would thaw the cells and grow them in petri plates, glial and neuronal cell cultures. These cells would eventually exhaust their duplication... adult human cells have a limited number of doublings possible. To get cells in culture to become immortal cell lines, one has to introduce a virus such as the Sendai virus that will combine with the cell's DNA and transform the cell into what is considered to be cancer. Cancer cells for the most part are immortal. Anyway, life and death are not black and white in my opinion. A lot of good would be possible if more people agreed. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:14:17 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: SOAPRG song list, compilations > I think that kind of variety is always a recipe for disaster, This reminds me of a favorite Gary Larson 'The Far Side' cartoon. A woman lies face down on the kitchen floor. The refrigerator door is ajar and off its hinges. There are cooking utensils and food scattered in disarray all over the floor and countertops including a bowl and spoon. Next to the woman on the floor an open book is lying upside down. The title of the book is 'Recipes for Disaster.' Tickles me everytime I see it for some reason. Mark E. in Seattle with 8 days left of employment ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:18:57 -0500 From: Reuben Bell Subject: Re: SOAPG Tracklist Announced! I love this track list! Finally something that gives a good cross section!! I'm buying these for every non-believer I know. Two from DJRD, Let The Wind..., RDCadillac, SFSharon...wow, what good stuff. The cover alone is worth it! That said, I got a kick out of the Lesson In Survival comp, too. Thought it was a great idea, bet they won't move many of them. I personally skipped the "Dreamland" release. Nothing of much interest for me, and I HATED the cover. Reuben On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:42:29 -0500, Richard Flynn wrote: > Many thanks for the list,Jamie. > > But you know? I can't help thinking "WFC" > (who f**kin' cares?) > > Only if there's a remixed Paprika Plains will I buy it. > > Joni has been Lucy Van Pelt to my Charlie Brown once too often. > > But this time I'm not gonna kick that football. > > I hope those aren't famous last words > > That Charlie Brown, he's a clown ;-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Jamie > Zubairi > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:45 PM > To: Joni JMDL > Subject: SOAPG Tracklist Announced! > > Well, they've announced it, the tracklist for SOAPG > and there are a few surprises (well, no, nothing new, > I guess that would be a REAL surprise) but I guess > they seem to follow a historical trait rather than a > geographical placing. Tea Leaf Prophecy, while being > about her parents, could've been anywhere say in > England in the 1940s for example... and do Amazon > never check their spelling? Don JAUN's recless > daughter? And still it's listed under PRARIE girl... > Perhaps River was included cuz of the front cover > being a woman skating on a frozen river (but we know > it's a lake) and are we going to be treated to the > full 7 mins of Come In From The Cold like in Hits (or > was it Misses?) as opposed to the edited 3 minute > version... Yes, Paprika Plains is there as > predicted... good, good... can't wait to see if it's > the remixed version...and are there any paintings? I > would love the poster of the cd cover as it stands I > guess but don't you think that she's got rather big > feet? Or is it the skates? DJRD is a surprise (and > co-incidental as it's been a topic of discussion this > past week on the jmdl). > > 1. Urge For Going > 2. Tea Leaf Prophecy > 3. Cherokee Louise > 4. Ray's Dad's Cadillac > 5. Let the Wind Carry Me > 6. Don Jaun's Reckless Daughter > 7. Raised on Robbery > 8. Paprika Plains > 9. Song for Sharon > 10. River > 11. Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody > 12. Harlem in Havana > 13. Come in From the Cold > > Oh, there'll be feathers flying on the jmdl as Ray's > Dad's Cadillac is on there, looking like a slut at her > sister's wedding. But I like it anyway... it has a > certain je ne sais quoi. It's a good one to play on > guitar if anything and is evocative of something that > has nothing to do with my generation but captures it > concisely. > > On the whole a nice mix of old and new dontcha think? > Something for everyone... the connoissuer, the fan, > the newbie, the muso, the classicist, the jazzer, the > folkie, the (aging) rocker, the fusion fan, the VG8 > fan and none of it (apart from Cherokee Louise) looks > like it might've been dug out from Tlog, for those of > you that don't reckon THAT was any good (which I do). > > Anyway > > Much Joni > > Jamie Zoob > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:50:14 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: NJC Schiavo The Terry Schiavo case was mentioned in another post. It is an outrage to me that this poor woman has been made into a political pawn by the religious right after her birth family has extended her suffering all this time. If there is a sanctity of marriage which has been so proclaimed the last few years that a person leaves parents and cleaves to another and both become one flesh, as the book of Genesis says and Bush et al have quoted, then the decision making here is clearly vested in the spouse, in this case, under law, in the husband. And the husband has testifed repeatedly that Terry Schiavo indicated that she never wanted to be in this situation, that she preferred to be allowed to die rather than receive extraordinary measures. Other testimony has been offered to that effect. Her court appointed guardian ad litem gave a report that backed up the husband's contention and all the medical experts have said that she is in a vegetative state with no hope of recovery, a conclusion the gurdian ad litem has also confirmed. I have seen too many times in ministry and life where some family member(s) have refused to heed the directives of the suffering individual because they refused to let go and grasp reality. In these situations however the law is clear - decision making absent a written directive is vested in the spouse. The Florida courts have ruled on this repeatedly. Governor Bush prolonged this for years with the intervention of the Florida legislature. Now, after that Republican Senate caucus memorandum circulated in the US Senate about this would be a politcal boon to the Republicans to once again have government intrustion into these people's private lives, here we go again. As a parent and grandparent one of my great fears is having to accept the death of a child or grandchild. I think every parent has had cold sweats worrying about that at some time or other. But there is a time to live, and a time to tie, a time to let go, Scriptures tell us. For myself I should be condemned to rot in hell were I to insist that a child of mine must linger as a vegetable against their wishes because I refuse to accept the reality that they have died. There is the hypocrasy that conservatives are supposed to be against government intrusion into private lives. There is the hypocrasy that Terry Schiavo's medical care is paid for by two sources: medicaid which Bush is trying to slash, and a pain and suffering award in a personal injury case, which Bush is trying to eliminate. If Bush's policies were in effect on medcaid and capping of jury awards, Terry Schiavo would have been allowed to complete her death a long time ago. Pardon me that I see this intervention as the rankest and foulest political use of a suffering family for partisan purposes. Amazing that the whole US government can swing into action for the sake of a politicized case and yet the hospitals and adult foster care homes and nursing homes are filled with people whose medical care via medicaid Bush is trying to slash. Right to life his ass -- only if the tv cameras are rolling and there are political points to be made. Right to liofe his ass when the government can grandstand on the Terry Schiavo issue while the House passes a budget that Bush recommended slashing aid to the poorest of children and infants and families to preserve tax cuts for the wealthiest. How many children and adults will die today because of lack of medical care while Bush and the Congressional Republicans grandstand on this issue. \ Meanwhile this poor woman suffers. Now trhat the federal courts are involved, we have new court ruling, now from a federal judge which says, let the woman's wishes be acted on. But the pious hypocrites won't let that be, they appeal one more time. How much must this poor suffering woman's case need to be litigated? And just like in casablanca where people are shocked, shocked that gamnbling takes place in Rick's cafe, so how can people be shocked, shocked that withholding of food and water is the medical practice. That is the way it is done. That is why medical insructions (so called living wills) so often include the terms "no forced feeding" with the terms "no extraordinary measures." Are people so ignorant of what the reality is in these situations as lived out daily all across the country? One of the Repulican leaders was crying about how we wouldn't treat a dog this way. No, we would not. We would put the dog to sleep. Will they allow assisted death? Of course not. But the right to life includes the right to die when death has happened. Terry Schiavo ihas been dead for 15 years. The body has been maintained in a vegatative state by tubes shoved down her throat. That is not life. There are things worse than death. If a person wants extraoridnary measures, then fine, go for it. 15 years of court decisions have said that Terry Schiavo did not want to be kept bioloigically alive like this and that has never been contradicted in court proofs. Respect for Terry Schiavo begins by respecting her wishes. I pray that poor woman be allowed to have her time to die. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:54:45 -0600 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: SOAPRG song list, compilations Hi Mark, That reminds me of another cartoon I believe Larson did. In the view, you saw a kitchen table with Mop and Glow, Clean and Shine, Shake and Bake, Stir and Frost, Groom and Clean, and the feet of the woman who hung herself with a note pinned to her apron that said Sick and Tired.... Steve >>> "Mark or Travis" 3/22/2005 10:14:17 AM >>> > I think that kind of variety is always a recipe for disaster, This reminds me of a favorite Gary Larson 'The Far Side' cartoon. A woman lies face down on the kitchen floor. The refrigerator door is ajar and off its hinges. There are cooking utensils and food scattered in disarray all over the floor and countertops including a bowl and spoon. Next to the woman on the floor an open book is lying upside down. The title of the book is 'Recipes for Disaster.' Tickles me everytime I see it for some reason. Mark E. in Seattle with 8 days left of employment ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:07:19 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC burial, your body David wrote: They said yesterday on CNN that all of the parents' legal fees are being paid by two major, private Pro-Life donors because the hope of the Republicans on the far right is that this case will play an important part in the strategy to overturn Roe v. Wade during Bush's second term. What? Hi David, Yeah... what? Overturning R v. W has become such an obsession to some people. Even if it is overturned, it won't end abortion. So much energy and so many resources are going into this political issue when in the mean time not much is getting better for women and children. I wish people were focussing their efforts on education instead. People blame laws when it seems to me the blame is in the hearts of legalistic people. In a world that has become so legalistic, it is no wonder that life is slipping away on so many levels most ironically at the hands of people who claim to be "pro-life." I mean look at Iraq... Where is the love? With love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:08:44 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo I'm just a few miles down the road from Terry. We here have been living with this story for many years. Even Pat Robertson says this is a bad law and should be kept at the State level. I respect him for keeping to his conservative views. A true conservative would oppose the Terry Bill. Instead we get a mish mash of lily-livered neo cons who sway any way the wind blows. The Christian Right is using Terry and her family for their own political gain. It's disgusting. My Two Cents > The Terry Schiavo case was mentioned in another post. > It is an outrage to me that this poor woman has been made into a political > pawn by the religious right after her birth family has extended her suffering > all this time. > If there is a sanctity of marriage which has been so proclaimed the last few > years that a person leaves parents and cleaves to another and both become one > flesh, as the book of Genesis says and Bush et al have quoted, then the > decision making here is clearly vested in the spouse, in this case, under law, > in the husband. And the husband has testifed repeatedly that Terry Schiavo > indicated that she never wanted to be in this situation, that she preferred to > be allowed to die rather than receive extraordinary measures. Other testimony > has been offered to that effect. Her court appointed guardian ad litem gave a > report that backed up the husband's contention and all the medical experts > have said that she is in a vegetative state with no hope of recovery, a > conclusion the gurdian ad litem has also confirmed. > I have seen too many times in ministry and life where some family member(s) > have refused to heed the directives of the suffering individual because they > refused to let go and grasp reality. In these situations however the law is > clear - decision making absent a written directive is vested in the spouse. > The Florida courts have ruled on this repeatedly. Governor Bush prolonged > this for years with the intervention of the Florida legislature. Now, after > that Republican Senate caucus memorandum circulated in the US Senate about > this would be a politcal boon to the Republicans to once again have government > intrustion into these people's private lives, here we go again. > As a parent and grandparent one of my great fears is having to accept the > death of a child or grandchild. I think every parent has had cold sweats > worrying about that at some time or other. But there is a time to live, and a > time to tie, a time to let go, Scriptures tell us. For myself I should be > condemned to rot in hell were I to insist that a child of mine must linger as > a vegetable against their wishes because I refuse to accept the reality that > they have died. > There is the hypocrasy that conservatives are supposed to be against > government intrusion into private lives. There is the hypocrasy that Terry > Schiavo's medical care is paid for by two sources: medicaid which Bush is > trying to slash, and a pain and suffering award in a personal injury case, > which Bush is trying to eliminate. If Bush's policies were in effect on > medcaid and capping of jury awards, Terry Schiavo would have been allowed to > complete her death a long time ago. Pardon me that I see this intervention as > the rankest and foulest political use of a suffering family for partisan > purposes. > Amazing that the whole US government can swing into action for the sake of a > politicized case and yet the hospitals and adult foster care homes and nursing > homes are filled with people whose medical care via medicaid Bush is trying to > slash. Right to life his ass -- only if the tv cameras are rolling and there > are political points to be made. Right to liofe his ass when the government > can grandstand on the Terry Schiavo issue while the House passes a budget that > Bush recommended slashing aid to the poorest of children and infants and > families to preserve tax cuts for the wealthiest. > How many children and adults will die today because of lack of medical care > while Bush and the Congressional Republicans grandstand on this issue. \ > Meanwhile this poor woman suffers. Now trhat the federal courts are > involved, we have new court ruling, now from a federal judge which says, let > the woman's wishes be acted on. But the pious hypocrites won't let that be, > they appeal one more time. How much must this poor suffering woman's case > need to be litigated? > And just like in casablanca where people are shocked, shocked that gamnbling > takes place in Rick's cafe, so how can people be shocked, shocked that > withholding of food and water is the medical practice. That is the way it is > done. That is why medical insructions (so called living wills) so often > include the terms "no forced feeding" with the terms "no extraordinary > measures." Are people so ignorant of what the reality is in these situations > as lived out daily all across the country? > One of the Repulican leaders was crying about how we wouldn't treat a dog this > way. No, we would not. We would put the dog to sleep. Will they allow > assisted death? Of course not. But the right to life includes the right to > die when death has happened. Terry Schiavo ihas been dead for 15 years. The > body has been maintained in a vegatative state by tubes shoved down her > throat. That is not life. There are things worse than death. If a person > wants extraoridnary measures, then fine, go for it. 15 years of court > decisions have said that Terry Schiavo did not want to be kept bioloigically > alive like this and that has never been contradicted in court proofs. Respect > for Terry Schiavo begins by respecting her wishes. > I pray that poor woman be allowed to have her time to die. > > Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:17:19 -0500 From: jrmco1@aol.com Subject: Re: bodies, njc ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Richard Flynn" >As someone who had a wife die waiting for a liver, and a sister who is >alive >and thriving for over 8 years after a double-lung transplant, let me second >this encouragement to everyone to become organ donors. As my sister's >bumper sticker says, "Don't take your organs to heaven, because heaven >knows >we need them down here!" My mother has that bumper sticker, too, Richard. Four years ago she received a lobe of a liver from a 9-year-old boy who died in an accident. She got the call just in time to save her life. She had been so very that I teetered at the limit of my own emotional endurance. If not for the generosity of this child and his God-sent parents, I would be motherless today. A young person who was also very ill received another lobe of his liver, but sadly, she didn't survive. My mother has become very close friends with the donor family. All lives involved, including my own, have been profoundly changed. I am so very thankful. It is truly beyond words. I love my girlfriend, Gail. I want you all to meet her. She's got a heart of gold and she's witty, kind and generous to a fault. Everyday I count the ways God has shed his grace on her. She's been battling diabetes since she was nine years old. Finally, this year, her kidneys failed after a year of suffering seizures and insulin reactions. There's a condition called euremia that mimics the symptoms of dementia. We went through that until she could have the surgery to insert a catheter that allows for the peritoneal dialysis she has to do four times a day. This year she's had two angioplasty heart surgeries, two myocardial infarctions, 8 stents implanted, 4 ICU stays...and a partridge in a pear tree. We just found out that her heart is healthy enough to allow for a kidney/pancreas transplant in about a month, if a deceased donor match becomes available. Kidney/pancreas transplantation is an absolute cure for type I diabetes. The gravity of it all has yet to sink in for me. My mind just can't fathom: someone dies, yet someone else receives the gift of life through an act of *literal* selflessness. It's so profoundly human I can barely grasp it. I had never planned to discuss this here, my friends, and I'm loathe to bore you all with an "over-share," as I fear I sometimes do. But it's like the subject found me here. I would be remiss if I didn't express my extreme appreciation to anyone and everyone who has donated or will donate their organs posthumously. I hope my corpse is handsome enough that they can take all of me. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:25:45 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo I never thought I would agree with Rep. Tom Delay about anything, but: The House Republican leader, Representative Tom DeLay of Texas, who helped spearhead the Congressional efforts to keep Ms. Schiavo alive, said it would be "barbaric" to remove the tube and let Ms. Schiavo starve and dehydrate for two weeks. "I don't care what her husband says," he told reporters. That sounds pretty barbaric to me, too. If the decision is for her to die, it should be done humanely and quickly, and not a gift of slow burning hell. Stephen Drake, of the disability rights group Not Dead Yet was saying yesterday on Democracy Now that most people who say they don't want to be kept alive artificially say so when they are healthy, and when they find themselves actually in that situation, they no longer feel that way. [Following the vote to keep Schiavo alive, her father told CNN] "I asked her if she was ready to take a little ride, and I told her that we were going to take her for a little trip and take her outside and get her some breakfast, and that got a big smile out of her face, so help me God," he said. "So, she seemed to be very pleased and we're pleased and we're very thankful for both the House and the Senate for passing this bill and literally saving Terri's life." [Her parents] also said that Michael Schiavo wants their daughter dead so he can marry his longtime girlfriend, with whom he has young children. They have begged him to divorce their daughter, and let them care for her A nurse that was employed at her nursing home signed an affidavit which said, in part: "Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?," "Has she died yet?" and "When is that bitch gonna die?" These statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was talking to, as long as it was a staff member." Her full affidavit is here: http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/CIyerAffidavit090203.htm They don't give the date on these videos, but they clearly show someone who is disabled, but can look around, smile, and vocalize in response to her mother: http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Mum.rm I don't know what the right answer is. The Congress are not doctors, and are not qualified to make a decision on this matter. Also disturbing: "If this bill passes, this Congress is saying that the court system of Florida will lose its long jurisdiction of history in this matter and others like it, and the jurisdiction of the federal court will be substituted," -Robt Wexler, D-Fla RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:36:38 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: NJC burial, your body > David wrote: > > less than 5% of Americans choose to agree to organ donation on their > driver's license and ID forms. > Why don't more people agree with us? I think part of it could be distrust of the medical system. You're badly injured, lying on the table. The doctor is eyeing your liver, which will fetch $50,000, your heart, etc? How will that affect her decision on how hard they try to save you? There have been scandals and investigations of this very thing. I would have a hard time deciding whether to check that box or not, if organ donation were an option (I'm not elligible). RR, who wants his body blown up with dynamite in an open field (after I'm dead, please)...second choice (I think I need one): buried in the earth, no casket (probably will need a third choice, I think that's illegal....okay, a thin pine box....ah, hell, what do I care at that point anyway?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:18:41 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo Damn, been a member here since what, 1998 and never disagreed with Randy and here it comes twice in a month. If you who are old enough to remember the Quinlan case from the 70s, I was in seminary then. I have followed all of these cases since then, we had a few battles in Michigan and I have been following this one for a long, long time. Everything that I have seen and heard in Schiavo from the beginning totally rejects that the husband is some bastard who wants to kill a woman who has any responsive brain cortex activity. She is dead. There is nothing responsive in her case. A vegatable body has inarticulate undifferentiated movement and that is what has been videotaped, leave the camera on long enough and get some good editing and it may show here dancing a jig. This has been in what, 12 courts, 20 judges, over 15 years, court appointed guardian ad litems and meidcal reports from every doctor on the case and they all come to the same conclusion, just as the federal court did this morning. Or is this some massive conspiracy in which Terry Shiavo is playing a part because she is so responsive to her daddy and then turns off her brain coretx and cerebrum the moment she is examined by a doctor or court appointed specialist? That's a great trick - and impossible. Despite what daddy wants to believe, she is dead. So what that her husband has a significant other woman and children in his life. His wife has been dead for 15 years. Would you expect him to go alone and on ice when none of us would? My God, if I loved someone in Terry Schivo's condition I would fight to let her death be compelte too, knowing that was the expressed wishes. The problem is not with Terry Schiavo's husband. These cases are always the same. The spouse is fought by the parents. Now if someone wants to believe that a disabled woman is going to be starved to death by an evil husband with the compliance of all doctors, judges, and courts over a 15 year period, well, go ahead. There are other forces at work here, hence the political memos floating all over Washington last week by the Republican congressional staffers on the politics of doing this. That anyone considers Terry Shiavo "disabled" says that the political operatives are doing a very good job. Vince \-------------- Original message -------------- >> > [Her parents] also said that Michael Schiavo wants their daughter dead > so he can marry his longtime girlfriend, with whom he has young children. > They have begged him to divorce their daughter, and let them care for her > > > > They don't give the date on these videos, but they clearly show someone > who is disabled, but can look around, smile, and vocalize in response to > her mother: > http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Mum.rm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:29:20 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: njc hypocrite As closely as I have studied the Schiavo case for all these years, I realize that my information is purely that from the media, I have no direct first hand information. Because this has been a public issue for the last ten years, there has been much public information but again I have no first hand information. This is not analogous to the Stephen Stills case because here we have had 15 years worth of court decisions, statelegislative actions for maybe 7 years, and congressional actions of late so there is much on public record. It is analogous to the Stephen Stills case in that I have no first hand information. I will confess my own hypocrasy here and with the Nicholas Cage character in Moonstruck confess that "I am no fucking monument to consistency" and say no more. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:38:44 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo The proof is in the pudding, Randy. If all he did want was to get rid of Terry, he could have easily done that long ago. He could have either divorced Terry, or given legal guardianship to her parents. Seems we have to believe that he took the hard road is as he states, to make sure his wife's wishes were carried out. Terry gave up her Catholicism years ago. What this is really about is her parents' dogmatic beliefs. Jerry > Damn, been a member here since what, 1998 and never disagreed with Randy and > here it comes twice in a month. -------------- > >>> >> [Her parents] also said that Michael Schiavo wants their daughter dead >> so he can marry his longtime girlfriend, with whom he has young children. >> They have begged him to divorce their daughter, and let them care for her >> >>> >> They don't give the date on these videos, but they clearly show someone >> who is disabled, but can look around, smile, and vocalize in response to >> her mother: >> http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Mum.rm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:59:38 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: NJC Schiavo I think this case is pretty complicated, and I don't feel I have enough information to have a strong opinion about the right course of action. However, I do believe in the right to die. My point was, if that is the right thing to do, do it right (ie Dr. Jack method). The poor woman has been through enough, and I'm sorry, no one knows whether she is capable of suffering if they let her slowly dehydrate. As to: > A vegatable body has inarticulate undifferentiated movement and that is what has been videotaped, leave the camera on long enough and get some good editing and it may show here dancing a jig. Did you look at the video? Her mother is talking, she is responding. There are no edits. Maybe it was just coincidental, but that's sure what it looks like, although, I said she can look around, and apparently she is blind. http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Mum.rm I agree with you that this is just another political grandstanding, and the idea that George Bush cares about human life is a cruel joke. I still remember him laughing mockingly about executing that Bible thumper lady in Texas. So, Vince, I have to disagree with your assessment that we disagree! RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:26:47 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net (vince) Subject: Re: NJC I Chose to Die A 1987 case in Michigan (husband dies in trainwreck, wife wants to turn off life support, sibling files to block and says spouse is murderer, case drags on for years) was responsible for Michigan's patient advocate law in 1990. Probably 95% give or take of clients choose "no life support" optional wording, 4% choose no optional langauage, and 1% chooses "keep me alive at all costs" option. For the "no life support" option I have always discussed with clients that the next optional decision is "no forced feeding" and "no hydration." In most cases in my own experience people pause, reflect, and opt for that. Far more people die that way than might be known. Last week for the first time in 17 years of doing legal work I saw a death certificate that listed the cause of death as "starvation." And that was a man who died at home with his wife as his care giver and hospice present. It sounds harsh. It sounds dreadful, concentration camp like. But in the end, with the brain not functioning on any detactable level and the heart pumping because it receives nourishment, when brain death occurs, because we do not have the option of assisted death, the route has to be lack of nourishment so the heart will stop. If you think about it, it makes all the sense in the world (in my opinion). Another common way not avialable in all cases, only in pain cases, is death by morphine. It is easy for the doctoror hospital staff to give a morphine overdose to a patient. It is a good way to go when that point has been reached. But it is not a remedy for all because the patient must first be on morphine, which means they have to have measureable pain. This is somewhat akin to assisted death, and does require a doctor who will act and a hospital staff who will keep their mouths shut. We just don't die. The definition of death keeps evolving as well. Obviously lack of heart beat is not death anymore because a heart can be revived. Brain death still has variables. And then you have brain death and a bearting heart. These things remain best handled in the privacy of the individual and spouse/designated patient advocate, not in the Florida legislatuyre or aCongress. But more to the point: how many JMDLers right now have no medical/patient advocate by whatever name it is termed in your state or country? This case should once again club everyone over the head with the need for married people to execute that document per governing law so your spouse has something to rely on and non-legally married people be it partners of any gender combination or singles to designate your decision maker and give your directions under law. Every non-legally married couple of whatever gender combination and every single person is asking for a world of hurt by not taking the self-responsible step oif getting it made legal who has control of your body and life when you are not able to make medical decisions, and what parameters of decisions you want made. And every legally married couple can lookto the news and see they need to give those legally enforcable directions too. And I suggest going to a lawyer to get it done legal in your jurisdiction. The stuff on the internet is free and that is what is worth, nothing, or going to cost you tyhe on-line costs and is still worth nothing. Trying to on the cheap draft your own legal documents is like do it at home brain surgery. Sure there is a How To internet source for it, because there are a lot of damn fools in the world. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:54:20 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: NJC burial, your body It's important not just to sign the donor card, but also to make sure your next of kin understand your wishes very clearly, because they have to act very quickly to make sure your donor organs are harvested (iw, I hate that expression!) right away, otherwise, they're no good. The Schiavo case points out very clearly that we all need to make a living will (and I haven't done this either). Like you, I sympathize with both sides in this. David Henderson wrote: BTW Once this guy at work was telling me that often bodies go to "waste" while families and authorities at hospitals and funeral homes try to figure out what to do. He said it's important to put in your will/living will that you are an organ donor and to will your body to a specific medical school. It speeds up the whole process and makes sure you are able to accomplish the good deed you set out to accomplish. Regarding Terri Schiavo, you're right - "Terri's being alive is benefiting her parents but seemingly cursing her husband." My heart really goes out to both her parents and her husband. What is the right decision? I assume you would always want to honor the ill person's wishes, but what do you do when that person has not made their wishes clear? And what if the medicine is not clear? It must be agonizing. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2005 #128 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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