From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2005 #82 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, February 21 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 082 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni i'view on Rhino website [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Win Joni's Starbucks CD - Artist's Choice/Songs Chosen By Friends [est86m] Re: the Cause NJC [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: CSN in 72 / 74 [Randy Remote ] Secret Bush Tapes- njc - pc sorry ["mia ortlieb" ] hello again [Bruce Kimerer ] Re: Secret Bush Tapes- njc - pc sorry [Bob Muller ] Re: hello again NJC [Bob Muller ] revisiting Joni's choice ["Kate Bennett" ] Joni's Starbucks CDs now avail online ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Joni's Starbucks CDs now avail online [JRMCo1@aol.com] NJC political song content, sexist, etc. ["David Henderson" ] Re: Joni's Starbucks CDs now avail online [Smurf ] Re: Joni in WORD ["Mark or Travis" ] RE: Joni's Starbucks CDs now avail online ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:31:53 +1100 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Joni i'view on Rhino website In the interview, Joni mentions Mr Kratzman and another male teacher - an Australian. Mr Kratzman told her she could "paint with words". Her other male teacher told her that she shouldn't copy because it will "kill her imagination". Mark in Sydney. NP Was (Not Was) - I Can't Turn You Loose. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:41:17 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Hey, But that Joni Starbucks CD! >>I haven't gone to my neighbourhood Sbucks yet, because I have an irrational phobia of the place. Maybe it's because they're so prolific. Maybe it's because they can't just have small, medium and large like everyone else, but have to give them those precious other names. But something about Starbucks raises my hackles and make me believe it's just.... evil... for some reason.<< read Naomi Klein's 'No Logo' for her reasons to explain why they are so prolific: it's because they are ...just 'evil' ... for some reason. There's also some Toronto content... mike - in year 3 of his Starbucks boycott... np - Emmylou Harris - Pieces of the Sky (Rhino version) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:33:27 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Hey, But that Joni Starbucks CD! now njc --- mike pritchard wrote: > read Naomi Klein's 'No Logo' for her reasons to > explain why they are so > prolific: it's because they are ...just 'evil' ... > for some reason. There's > also some Toronto content... > > mike - in year 3 of his Starbucks boycott... I feel the same way about Blockbuster video! I go to Rogers video instead (it's Canadian, probably evil in its own way as it's a huge chain owned by a major media mogul, but the people in the store I go to are very nice & that makes up for it.) Then again, we've got Satellite now, so you can just dial a movie and it's about a buck cheaper and you don't need to go out to get it and there's no late fees, plus you can tape it if you really want to see it more than once. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:18:22 -0500 From: Doug Subject: Re: Joni i'view on Rhino website This is from Karen O'Brien's book. A quote of Joni from BBC Radio 2 Feb 20 1999: "A good looking Australian came up to me and said, 'You like to paint?' I said 'yes' and he said to me, 'If you can paint with a brush you can paint with words, I'll see you next year.' His name was [Arthur] Kratzman and he'd come to Canada with his teaching credentials kind of out of whack, so they punished him by sending him to teach on Indian reservations, which he loved. To send a teacher to the Indian reservations in Saskacthewan was like being banished to Siberia, but he took it with relish an he was a very, very soulful man. He'd been a racing partner to [a] great gold medal winning racer in Australia at that time, so he was a really good runner and he was a teacher-maker and a writer-maker and an athlete-maker. He said, 'You know, I'm not going to teach it to you, I'm going to cram it in to you in the last two weeks, and you'll all pass with flying colours. I'm going to teach you what I know." There is more but I'm tired of typeing. He also told her to "Write in your own blood". I believe the two teachers you're thinking of are one and the same. Doug Mark-Leon Thorne wrote: > In the interview, Joni mentions Mr Kratzman and another male teacher - > an Australian. Mr Kratzman told her she could "paint with words". Her > other male teacher told her that she shouldn't copy because it will > "kill her imagination". > > Mark in Sydney. > > NP Was (Not Was) - I Can't Turn You Loose. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:29:47 -0600 From: est86mlm@ameritech.net Subject: Win Joni's Starbucks CD - Artist's Choice/Songs Chosen By Friends I'm giving away TWO of Starbuck's Joni Mitchell - Artists Choice CD (Music that matters to her) and/or Songs Chosen By Her Friends & Fellow Musicians. (Winner's choice of one of these CDs!) Enter to have this CD delivered right to your door. No coffee purchase required! There are two ways to enter the contests. And, yes, you can enter & win both contests. FIRST WAY TO WIN A CD: How many references to the following can you find in songs released on Joni's albums: Coffee Coffee-related item Cafe or Cafes PLEASE NOTE: TEA does not qualify as a coffee-related item. Name the song, and list the word(s) you are entering for each song along with how many times the word appears. The words: cafe and cafes count as two seperate words. The person who finds the most words.... wins a CD. If more than one person finds the same amount I'll put the names in a hat, a bowl or some other container and have my son pick the winner. Email your Answers by Tuesday, March 1st. Winner chosen March 2nd. est86mlm@ameritech.net SECOND WAY TO WIN A CD: For every BOX TOP for Education you send me I'll enter your name in a drawing for the CD. (NOT labels-for-education. Cannot use these) One BOX TOP gets one entry, Two BOX TOPS gets two entries, etc. These are those little pink squares you see on various food products hanging out in your kitchen. Example: http://www.boxtops4education.com/ http://www.yadkin.k12.nc.us/schools/fes/Box%20Tops%20for%20Education%20-%20Products.htm Mail-In entries need to be received by Saturday, March 5. Winner chosen March 6. Email me for address to send entries to @ est86mlm@ameritech.net Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:00:36 EST From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: the Cause NJC Sherelle: Thank you for your beautifully written, and for me, life-affirming post. I don't think I was quite due for a good cry, but I availed myself of one anyway. It's a feel-good thing though, these tears. Goodness, Sherelle...you write so sweetly, you sing like a siren, you act...I can't wait till you start dabbling in dance and architecture! Thanks again. I think my heart will stay warm for quite a while after this one. - -Julius In a message dated 2/18/05 11:55:20 AM, sherellesmith@hotmail.com writes: > Sometimes, it doesn't have to be anything more than that. I love the music > of Lynard Skynard even though I have heard in the past "Sweet Home Alabama" > promotes a stand for racism. I chose to believe that they just loved their > home, that's all. Though I see the confederate flag pasted as a backdrop on > concert footage, I choose to try to only see their music. It's hard though. > "Freebird" is a classic as well as their song (butchering the name) "Can You > Smell That Smell". I think his name was Ronnie Van Zant had a premonition > that he would die at an early age and that song is an eerie prediction of > his death along with "Freebird". I also think they had the best back up > singers in the business at the time. They rocked. I guess I will leave it at > that. There is so much more to people than just their prides and prejudices. > I am an optimist and believe that there is always room for change. Here's > hoping.... > > Sherelle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:53:52 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: CSN in 72 / 74 Joni was on the bill with CSNY Sept 8, 74, Roosevelt Raceway, Westbury NY. No doubt this is the same show as your tape. Having been raised on Bill Graham concerts, specifically the '72-'74 era, I am sure Graham was at the forefront of concert sound. The many shows I went to were top-notch, soundwise, and yes, monitors were standard. Even so, there could have been technical problems, communication problems with the monitor engineer (who was probably part of CSNY's crew), or more likely, substance malfunction. Even if he subcontracted out the sound locally, there would have been extensive equipment riders. It seems to me there is footage of Joni with CSNY in LA or Oakland- isn't it on one of the official videos? Maybe unofficial. Seems like I've seen a snippet somewhere. Surprised that Graham was the promoter in NY. Was this normal, or was he doing the whole tour? I saw Stills and Manassas at SF's Winterland in 73 or 74. They did a nice, long set, took a break, and the second set was a surprise acoustic performance by CSN. Kind of a surprise, as they'd done the same the night before, that's why I went! Sounded excellent, as I recall. I remember that there were pitch problems on the big CSNY comeback tour a few years ago, at least the one that was televised. And by Nash, of all people. Saw CSN after that, and they were the best and tightest I've ever seen them. RR ps The "new" CSN dvd "Long Time Comin" is being advertised as "never before released", a blatant lie. It is the same 60min program that came out in 1990 on VHS and cable TV. No extras, nuthin'. Yeah, my 18 bucks went up in smoke, but then, I guess everybody's been burned. "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: > A co-worker brought in a hard drive with dozens of Grateful Dead shows. > Almost accidently, it also had some CSN / CSNY shows on it. In 72, they > were doing mostly acoustic stuff. Stills seemed happy enough. > > The 74 show would have been around the time I saw them at Buffalo New York's > Rich Stadium. As I recall promoter Bill Graham said Stills wasn't happy > with his guitar sound yet. (subtext: Stills won't come out on time.) Bill > Graham said, "He wants it to sound JUST RIGHT for you." (cheers and > applause) Remember stadium shows? Wow, what a bad idea that was! > > Anyway, in 74 they had a conga player and a real band. Steven was > obviously... not... feeling well but it didn't hamper his ability to play > guitar one bit. Kinda strange. > > Half of the songs were... not... pitch-perfect. I don't think they had > proper monitors. Paz, is it possible that Bill Graham didn't set them up > with competent monitors so they could hear their harmonies? > > Although it was a sound-board recording, it might have been converted and > re-converted too many times. The audio quality was really bad, even at > work. If anyone is still reading, here's the real news: Some of the tracks > had an uncredited but unmistakably familiar female vocal on them, enhancing > the high harmonies. Sometimes, I don't think Joni could hear herself > either. Maybe there was something in the (bong) water? Does anyone have a > tree-worthy cassette or CD-R from CSNY in 1974 which includes our genius as > a background vocalist? > > All the best, > Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:40:55 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: Secret Bush Tapes- njc - pc sorry From the secret Bush tapes: <> http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=1490 It's kind of funny that visiting the site of the Sermon on the Mount was such a "poweful moment" for Bush. I mean, how has this affected him really when apparently he doesn't seem to recall what the Sermon on the Mount was all about. Mia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:00:48 -0500 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: hello again I used to post here fairly frequently (well maybe not all that frequently). But some of you might remember me. A lot of changes have happened since then, including moving, etc. Just wondering if this gets through. I've tried before with no luck. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:35:32 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Secret Bush Tapes- njc - pc sorry mia ortlieb wrote: Goes without saying, and I'm sure you know it Mia, but it's just part of his ruse...he can get a free pass on his drug-addled crooked past by saying that he was "born again" and as long as he continues to perpetuate the Christian rhetoric he gets to continue his Iraqi genocide and thievery and whatever he wants to do because he's such a moral guy - sheesh. I'll at least say in his defense that it seems to me that *most* Christians aren't familiar with the Sermon on the Mount either, and imo it should be the bedrock & litmus test of the faith. Bob NP: Marc Copland, "Blue" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:36:55 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: hello again NJC Sure Bruce - I remember you well. Welcome back! Bob NP: Meat Puppets, "Vampires" Bruce Kimerer wrote: I used to post here fairly frequently (well maybe not all that frequently). But some of you might remember me. A lot of changes have happened since then, including moving, etc. Just wondering if this gets through. I've tried before with no luck. Bruce Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:36:38 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: revisiting Joni's choice Mags>Joni felt she had no choice but to surrender her baby girl. Keeping her was not an option that she could sort out. Joni was "penniless" and felt that she did not/would not have had the acceptance or support from her parents.< I believe this decision of Joni's & Mags is one of the most loving, selfless acts imaginable. To give up your flesh & blood to another person because you know that baby will have a better chance at a better life. Parenthood requires so many sacrifices & this is one of the most loving & heartbreaking all mixed together. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:40:54 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Joni's Starbucks CDs now avail online Hmmmm... interesting choices considering some of our past conversations re 'who is coyote' & 'who is blue'... 5.Coyote, SELECTED BY ROBBIE ROBERTSON 7.Blue, SELECTED BY GRAHAM NASH ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:00:31 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Joni's Starbucks CDs now avail online I want to know why Robbie Robertson gets 2 choices AND why one of his choices, "Raised on Robbery" is one he plays on? - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Kate Bennett Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 3:41 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Joni's Starbucks CDs now avail online Hmmmm... interesting choices considering some of our past conversations re 'who is coyote' & 'who is blue'... 5.Coyote, SELECTED BY ROBBIE ROBERTSON 7.Blue, SELECTED BY GRAHAM NASH ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:02:13 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: FW: CSN in 72 / 74 (NJC) Forgot reply all - -----Original Message----- From: Richard Flynn [mailto:rflynn@frontiernet.net] Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:06 PM To: 'Randy Remote' Subject: RE: CSN in 72 / 74 They're kind of like the little girl with the little curl / right in the middle of her forehead: When they were good they were very, very good and when they were bad they were horrid Nothing more excruciating than off-key 3-part harmony. I suspect the explanation is substance malfunction. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Randy Remote Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 12:54 PM To: Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: CSN in 72 / 74 Joni was on the bill with CSNY Sept 8, 74, Roosevelt Raceway, Westbury NY. No doubt this is the same show as your tape. Having been raised on Bill Graham concerts, specifically the '72-'74 era, I am sure Graham was at the forefront of concert sound. The many shows I went to were top-notch, soundwise, and yes, monitors were standard. Even so, there could have been technical problems, communication problems with the monitor engineer (who was probably part of CSNY's crew), or more likely, substance malfunction. Even if he subcontracted out the sound locally, there would have been extensive equipment riders. It seems to me there is footage of Joni with CSNY in LA or Oakland- isn't it on one of the official videos? Maybe unofficial. Seems like I've seen a snippet somewhere. Surprised that Graham was the promoter in NY. Was this normal, or was he doing the whole tour? I saw Stills and Manassas at SF's Winterland in 73 or 74. They did a nice, long set, took a break, and the second set was a surprise acoustic performance by CSN. Kind of a surprise, as they'd done the same the night before, that's why I went! Sounded excellent, as I recall. I remember that there were pitch problems on the big CSNY comeback tour a few years ago, at least the one that was televised. And by Nash, of all people. Saw CSN after that, and they were the best and tightest I've ever seen them. RR ps The "new" CSN dvd "Long Time Comin" is being advertised as "never before released", a blatant lie. It is the same 60min program that came out in 1990 on VHS and cable TV. No extras, nuthin'. Yeah, my 18 bucks went up in smoke, but then, I guess everybody's been burned. "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: > A co-worker brought in a hard drive with dozens of Grateful Dead shows. > Almost accidently, it also had some CSN / CSNY shows on it. In 72, they > were doing mostly acoustic stuff. Stills seemed happy enough. > > The 74 show would have been around the time I saw them at Buffalo New York's > Rich Stadium. As I recall promoter Bill Graham said Stills wasn't happy > with his guitar sound yet. (subtext: Stills won't come out on time.) Bill > Graham said, "He wants it to sound JUST RIGHT for you." (cheers and > applause) Remember stadium shows? Wow, what a bad idea that was! > > Anyway, in 74 they had a conga player and a real band. Steven was > obviously... not... feeling well but it didn't hamper his ability to play > guitar one bit. Kinda strange. > > Half of the songs were... not... pitch-perfect. I don't think they had > proper monitors. Paz, is it possible that Bill Graham didn't set them up > with competent monitors so they could hear their harmonies? > > Although it was a sound-board recording, it might have been converted and > re-converted too many times. The audio quality was really bad, even at > work. If anyone is still reading, here's the real news: Some of the tracks > had an uncredited but unmistakably familiar female vocal on them, enhancing > the high harmonies. Sometimes, I don't think Joni could hear herself > either. Maybe there was something in the (bong) water? Does anyone have a > tree-worthy cassette or CD-R from CSNY in 1974 which includes our genius as > a background vocalist? > > All the best, > Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:06:36 EST From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Starbucks CDs now avail online Ha! Very interesting indeed, Kate. Thanks for pointing that out. Here we go again... I'm still in the Shepherd camp on "Coyote," but the jury is still out on "Blue" for me. I'll have to submit the Nash selection as Exhibit A. - -Julius kate writes: > Hmmmm... interesting choices considering some of our past conversations re > 'who is coyote' & 'who is blue'... > > 5.Coyote, SELECTED BY ROBBIE ROBERTSON > 7.Blue, SELECTED BY GRAHAM NASH ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:14:07 -0500 From: "David Henderson" Subject: NJC political song content, sexist, etc. >OK, all that doesn't explain how people can miss the political content in >'Four dead in Ohio' or the irony in 'Born in the USA' etc. I think many people >really do not listen that closely to the lyrics, even in their own language. >How else to explain the joy people find in singing along to 'Hey Joe' (man >kills woman and other man gives advice about how to escape the law), 'Delilah' >(man kills woman after stalking her), to name just two examples of very >popular songs that are loved by many people? I'm sure other jonilistas will be >able to offer many other examples of this phenomenon. There is a lot of >racist, sexist and homophobic content out there and not much seems to be done >about it. 'Turn up the music, I can still hear the words'... >mike in barcelona, who may be needing your help soon with more advice about >where to find sexist lyrics in popular songs. I may be about to get the green >light to write a doctoral thesis about this very topic. >NP Wilko - being there So many wonderful things to discuss! First, maybe this is an American thing, but most people love, love, love these old-fashioned "story" songs - whether the "good guy" or "bad guy" wins. It's part of the (wild, wild) western musical heritage. Hey Joe and Delilah are fantastic story songs, and everyone knows exactly what they are about - that's part of the fun! They're like mini-movies. How many people on this list, if the truth be told, didn't thrill to the idea of being the "little sister" who turns out to be the murderer in The Nights the Lights Went Out in Georgia? (Come on, you can admit it; most of us were only 10!) "He had it comin'," right? Of course, many of us are Cher fans, and she was always shooting (or casting spells on) men left and right just because they hurt her feelings. I especially loved it when the Carousel Man was murdered; He made her do all the work, so why not kill him? ;)) Sometimes, it is just ignorance. When I was in high school, I was not a Neil Young fan (still not), and I had no idea what the Neil Young reference in Sweet Home Alabama was about. How would I? I just thought it was a song about being proud of being from The South, even if that means Alabama, of all places. ;))) My Mom says that while she's never forgotten for a moment the tragedy detailed in Four Dead in Ohio, she sometimes cranks it up on the radio and sings out with other things on her mind . . . a nostalgia for the 60's, for protest, for upheaval at any cost for the sake of change, for a time when people cared more about social change than the latest TV ratings . . . songs can have multiple meanings and produce multiple responses within the same mind. I think, to a great extent, that rock and roll has always been extremely sexist (and racist and homophobic). Women were cast as pretty little things who existed to please their men right from the start - Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis, Elvis and as someone mentioned, The Stones still write women that way. I think part of the reason The Beatles revolutionized music was that they were the first major group that spoke to women as equals (or at least people who mattered beyond cooking and sex). Before that, you were either a very good girl or a very bad girl. Of course, 70s punk opened up the door - wide - to being openly and violently homophobic, and that trend continues today in punk, some metal and of course, in rap and some hip-hop. Which brings me to rap (and some hip-hop) . . . I don't think any group of writers have ever been more openly sexist, racist or homophobic - especially in the early days, late 80's, early 90's. Women are just bitches and "hos." Gays are just faggots and "hos." White people are just repressors and money "hos." Two of my closest friends are black women, who were thrilled beyond belief when I finally started getting into rap seven or eight years ago. (Gail believes strongly that white people are much more afraid of change than minorities.) Of course, one of my first questions was, how can y'all not be offended by the way these men talk about women. But they convinced me that what really matters is honest dialogue. Finally, people in the African-American community were being honest about the way they felt about each other, about gays, about white people - straight out, no bullshit. People can't talk through the problem until everyone spits it all out - venom and all. I've come to appreciate and respect that, and it saddens me that white people (and the subgroups of women and gays/lesbians) tend to throw all of our energy behind one politically correct wall of dogma and just stagnate . . . stagnate indefinitely. And hip-hop has made progress . . . . you sure don't hear as much about bitches and "hos" on the radio today, and women have a much stronger voice in hip-hop than they did in rap. I think hip-hop is the most creative revolution in music since the 1960's. They've created a whole new way to create, with focus like never before on collaboration and "keeping it real," saying exactly what you feel regardless, not to mention the most creative use of musical instruments, world music, "choral" voices, electronics and explosive lyrics since the 1960's. Ironically, you might say, who is producing the most socially interesting music in the world today? Wyclef Jean, Jay Z, Emimem/Dr. Dre. It's hip-hop that many, mostly white, people are so quick to put down as misogynist and homophobic that's tacking poverty, health insurance, the war in Iraq, welfare, homophobia, violence, drugs, AIDS, etc. in the Top 10! Mike said, "There is a lot of racist, sexist and homophobic content out there and not much seems to be done about it." I'm not sure what you mean by that - "to be done about it." If one artist espouses something you disagree with, the appropriate response is to respond with your art and your heart, and I think that's happening, and that's a responsible dialogue. I think that complaining behind a wall of political correctness leads to anything BUT dialogue; it leads to a stand-off, which is what we've had for decades, if not centuries, already. (I'm not saying Mike feels this way or the opposite.) Right now I'm listening to Emimem's new CD - his hysterical hit Just Lose It that makes silly fun of homophobia and still makes me laugh, which is followed by Toy Soldiers, which tackles violence in the rap community, which is followed by Mosh, his anti-Bush song (and brilliant video). Sometimes progress comes from the messiest and most chaotic corners of the world (while the rest of us sit on our hands, say the right (acceptable) things and hope for the best). So I guess I'm saying that if I were writing that paper, my thesis would be that often people have to argue - loudly and bluntly and sometimes hurtfully - get it all out - to learn to respect each other, to reach a true accord. It's not an argument for sexism, racism and homophobia, but it is an argument for the open and free discussion - no matter how ugly it gets - of sexism, racism and homophobia. To a better world quicker - David NP Carly Simon is the main story on CNN's People in the News this weekend . . . repeats over and over, Carly fans. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:39:02 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: NJC political song content, sexist, etc. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of David Henderson Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 4:14 PM To: Joni Mitchell List Subject: NJC political song content, sexist, etc. David wrote: I think part of the reason The Beatles revolutionized music was that they were the first major group that spoke to women as equals (or at least people who mattered beyond cooking and sex). Before that, you were either a very good girl or a very bad girl. Lennon & McCartney wrote: "I'd rather see you dead, little girl Than to see you with another man" "Was she told when she was young the pain would lead to pleasure? Did she understand it when they said That a man must break his back to earn his day of leisure, Will she still believe it when he's dead?" "She's a big teaser, she took me half the way there, She's a big teaser, she took me half the way there - now" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:47:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Re: Joni references Shakespeare/Joni Party Hi Eaddy and Donna Yes there are various sprinklings of Shakespeare's work throughout Joni's lyrics from the '60s to the '90s. From 'That Song About The Midway' Joni references Romeo and Juliet in her 'And you stood out like a ruby/In a black man's ear.' with Romeo's lamenting in Act 1 ScV O, she doth teach the torches to burn bright! It seems she hangs upon the cheek of night Like a rich jewel in an Ethiope's ear; Beauty too rich for use, for earth too dear! And I think in 'Borderline' there's a direct lifting of Hamlet in the lines, 'Good or bad we think we know/As if thinking makes things so!' In Act2 ScII of Hamlet, Hamlet is being 'investigated' by his former friends Rosencrantz and Guildenstern and he is out witting them. In this exchange he asks if they think that the world is a prison and that Denmark is also a prison but they think it's a good one.To which is reply is:'Why, then, 'tis none to you; for there is nothing/either good or bad, but thinking makes it so: to me it is a prison.' Quite a quick re-working of a line but it's there. Talk To Me has other R&J and Hamlet references, to which she says 'I stole that from Willy The Shake' The line 'COnstant as the Northern Star' happens to be the last major speech in Julius Caesar before he gets stabbed in the Forum. Ah this has been an interesting project... I'm sure there are more direct liftings and I would love to hear the COmplete Shakespeare to get it joined to Joni, just to see where it is from. Much Joni Jamie Zoob --- Donna Binkley wrote: > > Joni also references Shakespeare in "Talk to Me" > from Don Juan's > Reckless Daughter, a great album IMO. > And there may be other references I can't think of > or don't know. > > Come on Joniphiles help us out here! > > Donna from TX > > > > I work at a private school in Vermont and I almost > always get some > response when I toss out a reference to Joni. A > workshop weekend with > > colleagues took on a "hexagram of the heavens" theme > -- we were seeing > > them everywhere and wondering just what in the heck > that false alarm > was, for two whole days. (I still don't know what it > is. . . good topic > > for the party, or the list, perhaps.) > > I was in the office the other day, preparing for > class, when I came > across the lines in Shakespeare's Caesar "I am as > constant as the > northern star . . . ." I was so psyched that I > called out to the group > > of parents, staff and teachers "Joni? You know Joni? > Listen to this!" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:54:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Re: Internet radio njc I'm always listening to BBC radio 4 online - lots of comedy and good music http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio You'll need realplayer to listen to it but it's free! Much Joni Jamie Zoob --- Randy Remote wrote: > I'm always ready to plug our local community > station, KMUD-FM, > Garberville, Calif. They are very eclectic, playing > jazz, classical, > rock, > reggae, and talk shows. Checking out the guide is a > good idea. And > they have Amy Goodman's "Democracy Now", the best > lefty news > show in the US every day at noon PST. (I also did a > comedy show on > this station for 5 1/2 years in the 90's.) > http://www.kmud.org > > Garret wrote: > > > Any good radio stations that can be listened to > online? > > GARRET > > > > NP- Patti Smith, Free Money (live 11 aug 2003) > > > > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet > Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:46:30 -0800 (PST) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Joni's Starbucks CDs now avail online Julius wrote: > I'm still in the Shepherd camp on > "Coyote," but the jury is > still out on "Blue" for me. I agree about "Coyote," Julius, especially after Wally's thorough explanation of all the signs that point to Shepherd, including the fact that he and Joni have birthdays two days apart in November -- e.g., "two days on your tail." But if it's for or about anyone at all, I think "Blue" is for Graham. She is singing a sort of goodbye to him while referencing the love affair she has begun with James. Exhibit A: Blue, songs are like tattoos You know Ive been to sea betore Crown and anchor me Or let me sail away Hey blue, here is a song for you Ink on a pin Underneath the skin An empty space to fill in Well therere so many sinking now Youve got to keep thinking You can make it thru these waves Acid, booze, and ass Needles, guns, and grass Lots of laughs, lots of laughs Everybodys saying that hells the hippest way to go Well I dont think so But Im gonna take a look around it though Blue, I love you Blue, here is a shell for you Inside youll hear a sigh A foggy lullaby There is your song from me No other interpretation put forward here makes sense to me, as someone who knows far more about this woman than he ever intended to. - --Smurf, wondering where the weekend went ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:57:01 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni in WORD William Waddell wrote: > Joni's on the cover of the March edition of WORD - 11 page spread but > nothing new to report in it. She does, however, get mentions > throughout the issue - in the Rufus bit, the Francoise Hardy > interview re Dylan and the 'Who does Joe Brown's daughter listen to?' > snippet. Have a swell weekend. > WtS Is anyone going to transcribe this for the website or can somebody possible get a copy of it to me somehow? I am very interested in seeing this article. Also, does anyone know how long Word has been in circulation? Mark E. in Seattle? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:10:27 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Joni's Starbucks CDs now avail online Smurf >But if it's for or about anyone at all, I think "Blue" is for Graham. She is singing a sort of goodbye to him while referencing the love affair she has begun with James.< I agree with you that there is a strong likelihood that this song was for graham & as a goodbye (& when I next see you in person I will tell you more of why I think so :~} ) I hadn't ever noticed the reference to james but since you mention it, now yes... I can clearly see it... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:47:34 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: NJC political song content, sexist, etc. Richard Flynn wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of David > Henderson > Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 4:14 PM > To: Joni Mitchell List > Subject: NJC political song content, sexist, etc. > > David wrote: > > I think part of the reason The Beatles revolutionized music was that they > were the first major group that spoke to women as equals (or at least people > who mattered beyond cooking and sex). Before that, you were either a very > good girl or a very bad girl. > > Lennon & McCartney wrote: > > "I'd rather see you dead, little girl > Than to see you with another man" > > "Was she told when she was young the pain would lead to pleasure? > Did she understand it when they said > That a man must break his back to earn his day of leisure, > Will she still believe it when he's dead?" > > "She's a big teaser, she took me half the way there, > She's a big teaser, she took me half the way there - now" All three songs are from 1965. Also from '65: She asked me to stay and she told me to sit anywhere So I looked around and I noticed there wasn't a chair Asked a girl what she wanted to be She said baby, can't you see I want to be famous, a star of the screen But you can do something in between Baby you can drive my car By '67, Sgt Pepper: I used to be cruel to my woman I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved Man I was mean but I'm changing my scene And I'm doing the best that I can Half of what I say is meaningless But I say it just to reach you Julia Have you seen her in drag Dressed in a polythene bag Have you seen Polythene Pam A pretty nurse is selling poppies from a tray Though she feels as if she's in a play She is anyway You stay home She goes out She says that long ago she knew someone But now he's gone She doesn't need him Dear Prudence won't you come out to play Dear Prudence greet the brand new day The sun is out The sky is blue It's beautiful and so are you Dear Prudence won't you come out to play Lennon later said that he didn't like "Run For Your Life"- I think it has such a wicked bluesy groove, and is a great expression of unbridled jealousy. I think he summed up some of the changes he went through in relation to the opposite sex in "Woman". Woman please let me explain I never meant to cause you sorrow or pain so let me tell you again and again and again I love you....now and forever RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:48:54 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: hello again njc Hey Bruce! Long time, no post- wassup dog? Bruce Kimerer wrote: > I used to post here fairly frequently (well maybe not all that frequently). > But some of you might remember me. A lot of changes have happened since > then, including moving, etc. Just wondering if this gets through. I've tried > before with no luck. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2005 #82 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)