From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2005 #77 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, February 17 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 077 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? [colin ] re: Jonifest in France ["mike pritchard" ] Re: Fresh Air interview now NJC ["mike pritchard" ] correction njc [colin ] Re: correction njc [Jamie Zubairi ] Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? [Smurf ] Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? [Smurf ] Re: "Joni Mitchell: Artist's Choice", short [Catherine McKay ] RE: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc [Randy Remote ] Re: joni party [Lori Fye ] Re: Joni references Shakespeare/Joni Party ["Donna Binkley" ] another canadian s/s jumps ship -- njc [Smurf ] Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc [JRMCo1@aol.com] NJC Sweet Home Alabama [revrvl@comcast.net] Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] More Southern Arguments NJC [revrvl@comcast.net] Re: NJC Sweet Home Alabama [LCStanley7@aol.com] the Cause NJC [revrvl@comcast.net] NJC God Forgivc America [revrvl@comcast.net] Re: the Cause NJC [Lori Fye ] Re: another canadian s/s jumps ship -- njc [Lori Fye ] The South njc [Em ] Re: NJC God Forgivc America [Lori Fye ] Re: NJC God Forgivc America [Lori Fye ] Re: the Cause NJC [Em ] NJC Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? [Bob Muller Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: >>I love >>that flag but hate the slavery. >> >>mack >> >> >> >That's like a German saying: "I love that swastika, but I hate the genocide." > >-Julius > > > such a shame the swastika has come to be recognized as a symbol for peace when it was and still is a Hindu symbol meaning the opposite. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:37:49 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: re: Jonifest in France I will be there - as Van Morrison said. mike in barcelona, looking forward to meeting Ashara, and the others np - holly cole - temptation ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:00:13 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview now NJC Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:23:24 -0800 (PST) So, I take it you doubt Clapton is God? Em 'gods' come and go... mike in barcelona np - soldier's things - holly cole ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:08:00 +0000 From: colin Subject: correction njc colin wrote: >JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > > > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >such a shame the swastika has come to be recognized as a symbol for >peace when it was and still is a Hindu symbol meaning the opposite. > > > oh shit. i meant: such a shame the swastika has come to be recognized as a symbol for evil when it was and still is a Hindu symbol for the opposite. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:33:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Re: correction njc And also it's the other way round (i.e. the direction of travel goes the other way --- colin wrote: > colin wrote: > > >JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >such a shame the swastika has come to be recognized > as a symbol for > >peace when it was and still is a Hindu symbol > meaning the opposite. > > > > > > > > oh shit. i meant: such a shame the swastika has come > to be recognized as > a symbol for evil when it was and still is a Hindu > symbol for the opposite. > > -- > bw > colin > http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:58:06 -0800 (PST) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? Responding to Lama's explanation: > (For JMDLers outside the US, I'll say this: The confederate army, which was fighting basically to preserve slavery, > Mack wrote: > Definitely a Yankee viewpoint. Really? Here's another Yankee viewpoint: When I was a boy I used to like the shamrock symbol that's identified with people of Irish ancestry. By the 1970s, the symbol had been adopted by anti-busing forces here in Boston -- many of whom were racists of the ugliest sort. Now when I see shamrocks I can't help but think of the racist meaning that's become attached to that symbol for me because of past events. I can't imagine that the feelings would be that much different for anyone who is associated with a tarnished symbol, whether that person is a Southern man or a German or an Irish-American. - --Smurf in Boston, where the word 'Yankee' means either the descendants of the hated people who put up the "No Irish Need Apply" signs in my grandfather's time, or the even more hated, yet finally defeated, baseball team __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 04:02:29 -0800 (PST) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? Hey! I just noticed this Grammy thread doesn't have a no-Joni tag on it. Sorry to the Joni onlies for catching the error after I hit SEND. - --Smurf __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:25:32 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "Joni Mitchell: Artist's Choice", short --- Randy Remote wrote: > The Artists Choice CDs are also available on the > Starbucks website > (mostly, that is, a couple of them seem to be > unavailable)-- > Joni's has not been added to their webpage yet, > though. The > page to check: > http://www.starbucks.com/hearmusic/index.asp?category%5Fname=Artists+Choice > They only ship orders to the United States and > Canada, excluding > Quebec, Puerto Rico and Guam. Hey! Whatta they got > against Quebec? > It's more likely what Quebec has against them. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:33:42 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc --- JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > lama writes: > > Maybe skipping Zep was a patriotic thing on the > part of the organizers. > > You > > know: we'll slight the Brits but make some time > for a big ole', happy > salute > > to "Southern Rock". Yeee-haw! > > > THANK YOU, JIM! > > I can't endure it any longer...I hate that feckin' > song ("Sweet Home > Alabama") and every time I hear it I have to resist > the urge to hurl. I've > always > seen it as a segregationist anthem and a diss of the > good intentions of Neil > Young. Does no one listen to lyrics at all > anymore? Thank you, Julius, first for the epileptic/apoplectic post and now this. I feckin' HATE that song and wasn't watching the Grammys but my daughter was, and when I heard THAT come on, I thought, "WTF is up with THAT?" It was a lame song with bad lyrics, but it got glorified on Grammys? (I did see the Green Day "American Idiot" bit, and Loretta Lynne with Jack Black; and that overblown gospel medley by I-dunno-who, which left my jaw agape, because all I could think was, "Wow! That must have cost a LOT of money!" and I also couldn't decide whether it was meant to be respectful or parody.) ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:34:14 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? Smurf wrote: >Responding to Lama's explanation: > > > (For JMDLers outside the US, I'll say this: The >confederate army, which was fighting basically to >preserve slavery, > > >Mack wrote: > > > >>Definitely a Yankee viewpoint. >> >> > > >Really? Here's another Yankee viewpoint: > >When I was a boy I used to like the shamrock symbol >that's identified with people of Irish ancestry. By >the 1970s, the symbol had been adopted by anti-busing >forces here in Boston -- many of whom were racists of >the ugliest sort. Now when I see shamrocks I can't >help but think of the racist meaning that's become >attached to that symbol for me because of past events. > > Th same thi g has happened to the enlish flag, cross of st george. It wa shijacked years ago by racists and is seen a racist symbol now. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:25:14 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc I've always thought that Warren Zevon's "Play it All Night Long" was the perfect antidote to "Sweet Home Alabama": http://members.aol.com/zevonfan1/private/BADLUCK.HTM#badluck5 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Catherine McKay Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:34 AM To: JRMCo1@aol.com; jlamadoo@fuse.net; michael@thepazgroup.com; joni@smoe.org Cc: jdhenderson@nyc.rr.com Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc --- JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > lama writes: > > Maybe skipping Zep was a patriotic thing on the > part of the organizers. > > You > > know: we'll slight the Brits but make some time > for a big ole', happy > salute > > to "Southern Rock". Yeee-haw! > > > THANK YOU, JIM! > > I can't endure it any longer...I hate that feckin' > song ("Sweet Home > Alabama") and every time I hear it I have to resist > the urge to hurl. I've > always > seen it as a segregationist anthem and a diss of the > good intentions of Neil > Young. Does no one listen to lyrics at all > anymore? Thank you, Julius, first for the epileptic/apoplectic post and now this. I feckin' HATE that song and wasn't watching the Grammys but my daughter was, and when I heard THAT come on, I thought, "WTF is up with THAT?" It was a lame song with bad lyrics, but it got glorified on Grammys? (I did see the Green Day "American Idiot" bit, and Loretta Lynne with Jack Black; and that overblown gospel medley by I-dunno-who, which left my jaw agape, because all I could think was, "Wow! That must have cost a LOT of money!" and I also couldn't decide whether it was meant to be respectful or parody.) ===== Catherine Toronto - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:36:36 -0600 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: Me and Muller's CDs -- NJC ... yeah, right ... Smurphy, Does this mean you are going to try out for the 'Find the New Janis Joplin' reality show? Cool! Steve npimh: PMIACAHWTN (hee hee) >>> Smurf 2/16/2005 9:10:46 PM >>> To the tune of Janis's version of "Me and Bobby McGee." With appreciation for my self-confessed friend, Bob Muller. ;-/ LOL & ROTFLACYKITSR & WTF!!! MWAH!!! PIHNL!!! Me and Muller's CDs In busted flats and bright red rouge, wearing a dress with stains I was feeling nearly as jaded as old queens Muller chatted poor bastards up just before it rained, Suckers drove us all the way to New Orleans He pulled covers CDs out of my turdy Dolce y Gabbana, I was braying soft while Bono sang "Ethiopia" Vindshield vipers slapping time, I was holding Muller's Covers CDs, While he played Joni songs those poor souls never even knew-theopia Freedom's just another word for I-am-much-too-loose, Nothing dont mean nothing, honey, if it aint covered, now And feeling bad was easy, Lord, when he played us "Blue," You know feeling bad was bad enough for me, But it was worse for me with Muller's CDs From the periwinkle early crap to that "California" song, Bob Muller's covers scratched the blackboard of my soul Through all kinds of "Amelia's" and everything that he'd hum, Hey Muller baby made my blood run so cold One day up near Salinas, Lord, I lost him cause I ran away, Hes looking for covers and I hope he's, uh, fine But Id trade all of my tomorrows for one single yesterday And for one more bad -theopia rhyme Freedom is just another word for this-music-slut-won't-stop, Covers, thats Muller's reason to be, yeah, And feeling bad was easy, Lord, when he played us "Blue," You know feeling bad was bad enough for me, But it was worse for me with Muller's CDs La la la, la la la la, la la la, la la la la La la la la la Muller's CDs La la la la la, la la la la la La la la la la, Muller's CDs, la La la la, la la la la la la, La la la la la la la la la, hey now Muller now, Muller' CDs, yeah! "IDT" - --Smurf __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:21:08 EST From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc Couldn't connect with that link, but here are the lyrics. Thanks, Mr. Flynn. Quite apt, I agree. Talk about missing our dear departed. What I wouldn't do for "Werewolves of London" again. Sigh. - -Julius Written by Warren Zevon 1980 Zevon Music BMI "Play it All Night Long" Grandpa pissed his pants again He don't give a damn Brother Billy has both guns drawn He ain't been right since Vietnam "Sweet home Alabama" Play that dead band's song Turn those speakers up full blast Play it all night long Daddy's doing Sister Sally Grandma's dying of cancer now The cattle all have brucellosis We'll get through somehow "Sweet home Alabama" Play that dead band's song Turn those speakers up full blast Play it all night long I'm going down to the Dew Drop Inn See if I can drink enough There ain't much to country living Sweat, piss, jizz and blood "Sweet home Alabama" Play that dead band's song Turn those speakers up full blast Play it all night long In a message dated 2/17/05 5:33:28 AM, rflynn@frontiernet.net writes: > I've always thought that Warren Zevon's "Play it All Night Long" was the > perfect antidote to "Sweet Home Alabama": > > http://members.aol.com/zevonfan1/private/BADLUCK.HTM#badluck5 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:23:35 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc Julius wrote: That's like a German saying: "I love that swastika, but I hate the genocide. --Comparing the Confederate army to the Nazis is not comparable and any atrocities that occurred during the civil war were equally distributed on both sides. Furthermore, most of those good ole boys that died in that war only wanted to go home. Another example of government of the few making the majority of the poor do their bidding. And their were plenty of northerners that had slaves. Slavery was a very small part of the reason for that war, in my opinion. mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:15:01 +0000 From: John Sprackland Subject: Starbuck's CD Will you guys stop teasing us! What is on the goddamn CDs?! People keep dropping little messages, 'got the Starbuck's CDs.... cool...', kinda thing.... ALL I WANT TO KNOW IS WHAT SHE HAS CHOSEN AND WHAT OTHERS CHOSE OF JONI! ...it's not much to ask. Is this CD available in the UK Starbuck's yet, anyone know? John Southport, UK NP; Rilo Kiley from 'The Word' sampler CD with the Joni issue... what a great song and great voice! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:11:49 EST From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc Mack writes: > --Comparing the Confederate army to the Nazis is not comparable... > Dateline - 1864 Headline - "The Massacre at Fort Pillow - Three Hundred Black Soldiers Murdered After Surrender" From _The Civil War_ by Ward and Burns: The Confederates considered captured black troops who had once been slaves rebels and contraband rather than prisoners of war and refused to exchange them for their own prisoners. They were sometimes returned to their former masters instead, or sold to the highest bidder, or simply murdered. A Confederate officer recalled how he dealt with a squad of black soldiers who attempted to escape: "I...ordered every one shot, and with my Six Shooter I assisted with the execution of the order." "Back in April, Bedford Forrest's Tennesseans had surrounded Fort Pillow, held 557 black troops and a unit of Tennessee unionists, and demanded its surrender. When the Federal forces refused, they stormed the fort, then butchered as many of three hundred of its disarmed defenders, black and white. "The poor, deluded Negroes would run up to our men," a reel soldier recalled, "fall upon their knees and with uplifted hands, scream for mercy, but were ordered to their feet, and then shot down. Another reported, "I saw four white men and at least 25 Negroes shot while begging for mercy, and I saw one Negro dragged from a hollow log...and as one rebel held him by the foot, another shot him." "Forrest was unrepentant. 'The river was dyed with blood of the slaughtered for 200 yards,' he reported. "It is hoped that these facts will demonstrate to the northern people that negro soldiers cannot cope with Southerners.' - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:20:31 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > And what the frick was Elvin Bishop doing up there? He's a BLUES ROCKER > from Northern California!! I think he owes his manager/agent one hell of a dinner. It was great to see him up there, though, and his style in general fit the theme. However, the song they did "Fooled Around and Fell In Love" (orig vocalist Mickey "Starship" Thomas) was pure pop. Ironically the financial highpoint and artistic low point of Elvin's carreer. RR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:27:23 EST From: Rusty10113@aol.com Subject: Re: Starbuck's CD lol, well Im at Starbucks right now, and of course, have already created my own CD on my iPod, as I already own all these songs...the list is as follows (the order might be screwed up slightly) .. I think this is a more listenable array for the general public than Dreamland.. anyone agree? For Free A Case of You Free Man in Paris Coyote Blue Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire For The Roses Raised on Robbery A Strange Boy God Must Be A Boogie Man Two Grey Rooms (great choice!) Both Sides Now (orch version) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:39:50 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc Like I wrote, plenty of atrocities such as this on both sides. That flag doesn't signify racism to me and never has, never will. Unfortunately it does to some. mack ----- Original Message ----- From: JRMCo1@aol.com To: mackoliver@comcast.net ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc Mack writes: --Comparing the Confederate army to the Nazis is not comparable... Dateline - 1864 Headline - "The Massacre at Fort Pillow - Three Hundred Black Soldiers Murdered After Surrender" From _The Civil War_ by Ward and Burns: The Confederates considered captured black troops who had once been slaves rebels and contraband rather than prisoners of war and refused to exchange them for their own prisoners. They were sometimes returned to their former masters instead, or sold to the highest bidder, or simply murdered. A Confederate officer recalled how he dealt with a squad of black soldiers who attempted to escape: "I...ordered every one shot, and with my Six Shooter I assisted with the execution of the order." "Back in April, Bedford Forrest's Tennesseans had surrounded Fort Pillow, held 557 black troops and a unit of Tennessee unionists, and demanded its surrender. When the Federal forces refused, they stormed the fort, then butchered as many of three hundred of its disarmed defenders, black and white. "The poor, deluded Negroes would run up to our men," a reel soldier recalled, "fall upon their knees and with uplifted hands, scream for mercy, but were ordered to their feet, and then shot down. Another reported, "I saw four white men and at least 25 Negroes shot while begging for mercy, and I saw one Negro dragged from a hollow log...and as one rebel held him by the foot, another shot him." "Forrest was unrepentant. 'The river was dyed with blood of the slaughtered for 200 yards,' he reported. "It is hoped that these facts will demonstrate to the northern people that negro soldiers cannot cope with Southerners.' -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:45:24 -0500 From: "McMillan Brad" Subject: Re: fresh air, little green very good observation. ----- Original Message ----- From: eaddy sutton To: joni@smoe.org Cc: bradmcmillan@earthlink.net Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 8:54 PM Subject: fresh air, little green Brad wrote; Personally, I find Joni's 'feet of clay' very humanizing. As to the issue at hand, "Little Green" does have some rather self-serving lyrics, but she speaks too of lying to her parents and yet says she's not ashamed. There was obviously some conflict there. ******** So you sign all the papers, in the family name you're sad and you're sorry, but you're not ashamed Little green, have a happy ending I've always felt that this is all I need to know about the situation -- unthruths, nonsense or no. But then the WOHAM dvd makes this the central angst in her creative life; the betrayal, the grief, but the freedom. . . . Since that dvd, the weeping and bawling along with the song is almost too much to bear. Eaddy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:23:55 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: joni party Bob wrote: < I can't imagine such a thing, except in those cases where you're in an area that's > got enough of US around to make it work. When I take things to various shops > for duplication (cd artwork, videos, etc) about the best I can hope for is "Joni > Mitchell - I've HEARD of her". Here in Bethesda MD where I work, one of my colleagues went this morning to the nearest Starbucks and came back to tell me that they have two different JM cds on the counter -- AND one of the cds is "flying off the shelf!" She said everyone who picked it up was buying it. So there's hope ... Lori, who has no idea what's on those cds ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:47:52 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: Joni references Shakespeare/Joni Party Eaddy, your idea of a Joni Party sounds great to me! Let us know when and where. There has been a major Jonifest annually for about 8-9 years, with smaller "mini-fests" in between. I have attended as many as possible. This year there it's happening in France see JMDL.com for details. Joni also references Shakespeare in "Talk to Me" from Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, a great album IMO. And there may be other references I can't think of or don't know. Come on Joniphiles help us out here! Donna from TX I work at a private school in Vermont and I almost always get some response when I toss out a reference to Joni. A workshop weekend with colleagues took on a "hexagram of the heavens" theme -- we were seeing them everywhere and wondering just what in the heck that false alarm was, for two whole days. (I still don't know what it is. . . good topic for the party, or the list, perhaps.) I was in the office the other day, preparing for class, when I came across the lines in Shakespeare's Caesar "I am as constant as the northern star . . . ." I was so psyched that I called out to the group of parents, staff and teachers "Joni? You know Joni? Listen to this!" They did the babble and swoon, and we all got into A Case of You and the literary reference. (I would love to get into that convo here on the list, but alas, no one seemed interested when I tossed it out. Did Joni read the classics? Are there other lines or images from Shakespeare, et. al.?) Perhaps the teaching profession is full of those sensitive, brooding types who love the depths of poetry, and therefore Joni . . . . It is definitely time for a party -- and perhaps someday a full-blown fest, hosted by the masters. Eaddy This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:03:30 -0500 From: "rflynn@frontiernet.net" Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc At the risk of joining you guys who are trying to refight the Civil War, let me explain to you how the confederate battle flag that was until recently on my state flag in georgia symbolizes racism. It was adopted in 1956, two years after Brown v. Board of Ed. precisely as a defiant segregationist gesture. Regardless of its meaning in the 1860s, the confederate battle flag often, and in these times usually, symbolizes racism. To admit that is not a betrayal of your southern heritage, to admit that strengthens southern heritage because it show you that we're not all yahoos down here. Quoting mackoliver : > Like I wrote, plenty of atrocities such as this on both sides. That > flag > doesn't signify racism to me and never has, never will. > Unfortunately it does > to some. > > mack > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JRMCo1@aol.com > To: mackoliver@comcast.net ; joni@smoe.org > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:11 PM > Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc > > > Mack writes: > > > --Comparing the Confederate army to the Nazis is not > comparable... > > > Dateline - 1864 > Headline - "The Massacre at Fort Pillow - Three Hundred Black > Soldiers > Murdered After Surrender" > > From _The Civil War_ by Ward and Burns: > > The Confederates considered captured black troops who had once been > slaves > rebels and contraband rather than prisoners of war and refused to > exchange > them for their own prisoners. They were sometimes returned to their > former > masters instead, or sold to the highest bidder, or simply murdered. > A > Confederate officer recalled how he dealt with a squad of black > soldiers who > attempted to escape: "I...ordered every one shot, and with my Six > Shooter I > assisted with the execution of the order." > > "Back in April, Bedford Forrest's Tennesseans had surrounded Fort > Pillow, > held 557 black troops and a unit of Tennessee unionists, and demanded > its > surrender. When the Federal forces refused, they stormed the fort, > then > butchered as many of three hundred of its disarmed defenders, black > and white. > "The poor, deluded Negroes would run up to our men," a reel soldier > recalled, > "fall upon their knees and with uplifted hands, scream for mercy, but > were > ordered to their feet, and then shot down. Another reported, "I saw > four > white men and at least 25 Negroes shot while begging for mercy, and I > saw one > Negro dragged from a hollow log...and as one rebel held him by the > foot, > another shot him." > > "Forrest was unrepentant. 'The river was dyed with blood of the > slaughtered > for 200 yards,' he reported. "It is hoped that these facts will > demonstrate > to the northern people that negro soldiers cannot cope with > Southerners.' > > -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:35:24 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? Julius wrote: I can't endure it any longer...I hate that feckin' song ("Sweet Home Alabama") and every time I hear it I have to resist the urge to hurl. I've always seen it as a segregationist anthem and a diss of the good intentions of Neil Young. Does no one listen to lyrics at all anymore? Hi Julius, I listen to lyrics... and sing them and lived in Mobile, Alabama for a while, Jimmy Buffet's home town. I love the song Sweet Home Alabama and do turn it up and sing with Alabama when it comes on the radio. In my opinion, it isn't a segregationist anthem at all but rather an excellent song about the love of one's home. I see the song saying Neil Young really wasn't needed to focus on slavery which happened years before great southerners like Ernest Green, Rosa Parks, and Martin Luther King, Jr. Prejudice didn't need to be stirred up against southerners. That's what I understood Alabama to mean by singing: Well I heard mister young sing about her Well, I heard ole neil put her down Well, I hope neil young will remember A southern man donbt need him around anyhow Neil Young's song Souther Man was definitely a put down rather than focusing on the goodness of the southern man. I'm a Neil Young fan, but I think he was rightly chastised in the song Sweet Home Alabama. The group members of Alabama are also fans of Neil Young, and in concerts, the lead singer wore a Neil Young tee-shirt. We southerners don't need people to think of us as slave drivers with whips, etc. That really sucks. The whips were long gone in 1970 when Southern Man came out. Yes, there are fundamentalist groups of white supremacists in the south, but I guarantee you'll find them in the north too, and they aren't just against blacks. There is prejudice against the South and change will come at last in this regard. I say BRAVO to Alabama for not letting Neil's song by without standing up for the reputation of the South by keeping the focus on the good in the modern day times. Below are two other songs I really love that came to my mind because they sing of the beauty of the South. Love that bama accent... so sweet and warm jis' like our own here in Arkansas! I love the white sand in Gulf Shores, Alabama!!! Love the ride on the bridge over Mobile Bay on into Mobile too! You ain't gonna find no nicer people than we got down here in Dixie. Th' ain't no nicer smiles than on our black bro's and sis', fine southern men and women. Fine... real fine. Love, Laura Southern Accents Johnny Cash Unchained (written by Tom Petty) There's a southern accent, where I come from The young'uns call it country The Yankees call it dumb I got my own way of talkin' But everything is done, with a southern accent Where I come from Now that drunk tank in Atlanta's Just a motel room to me Think I might go work Orlando If them orange groves don't freeze I got my own way of workin' But everything is run, with a southern accent Where I come from I got my own way of working When everything is wrong With a southern accent Where I come from For just a minute there I was dreaming For just a minute it was all so real For just a minute she was standing there, with me There's a dream I keep having Where my mama comes to me And she kneels down over by the window And says a prayer for me I got my own way of prayin' But everyone's begun With a southern accent Where I come from We have our own way of livin' But everything is done With a southern accent Where I come from Stars Fell on Alabama Sung by Jimmy Buffett written by Mitchell parish, frank perkins 1934 For all the crooners and swooners wherever they may be Moonlight and magnolias, starlight in your hair All the world a dream come true Did it really happen, was I really there Was I really there with you We lived our little drama, we kissed in a field of white And stars fell on alabama that night I canbt forget the glamour, your eyes held a tender light And stars fell on alabama last night Chorus: I never planned in my imagination, a situation so heavenly A fairy land that no one else could enter And in the center, just you and me, dear My heart beat like a hammer, my arms wound around you tight And stars fell on alabama last night - --spoken: Alright, letbs take it on down from muscle shoals through decatur Mmmm, birmingham, ooh montgomery Right up over spanish fort into mobile, my hometown Mister t... (harmonica solo) Chorus: I never planned in my imagination, a situation so heavenly A fairy land that no one else could enter And in the center, just you and me, dear My heart beat like a hammer, my arms wound around you tight Ah, stars fell on alabama last night - --spoken: One more time boys... Yes, we lived our little drama We kissed on the dunes so white And stars fell on alabama Last night ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:12:05 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview > Jerry, I'm afraid I must disagree with that statement. > Toronto was called "Toronto the Good" for a long time, But still much more liberal than anyplace in NY, outside of Manhattan. I used to go to Yorkville in the 60's because it was so openly gay. And you could buy dope on the streets openly anywhere. And the live sex shows were on every corner bar. I don't know which Protestants were running those in Toronto, but let me know what sect that was. Maybe the suburbs, like Mississauga were conservative, but I didn't find the city to be. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:25:12 -0800 (PST) From: Smurf Subject: another canadian s/s jumps ship -- njc Whether it's our own special brand of racism, road rage or freedom fries, I guess the US is where Canadian singer/songwriters want to be. This is from Yahoo News: Alanis Morissette Becomes U.S. Citizen Thu Feb 17, 7:43 AM ET LOS ANGELES - Canadian Alanis Morissette (news) is now an American citizen. The 30-year-old singer was among some 4,500 people who took the citizenship oath during a ceremony last week at the Los Angeles Convention Center. Morissette isn't turning her back on Canada  she's maintaining dual citizenship. "I will never renounce my Canadian citizenship," Morissette said in a statement Wednesday. "I consider myself a Canadian-American. "There was a turning point during the ceremony where I felt connected to this country in a way that I didn't quite expect," she said. "America has been really great to me and I have felt welcomed since the day I came here." Morissette's songs include "Ironic" and "You Oughta Know." ___ Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:30:07 EST From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc Hello Laura: Thanks for your reply. I can see that you are a well-meaning person. A little about me: - - My mother was born and raised in Little Rock, Arkansas - - My grandfather lived in Daphne, Alabama for 20 years until his death at 92, just months ago - - I was born in Lubbock, Texas and raised in San Antonio, Texas In short, I am a Southerner and I know of what I speak. I wonder what governor you think Skynard was referring to in the song, and what the legacy of that governor is? (Hint: "Segregation today, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever...") You know, I'm biting my lip hard, trying not to take offense at your smiling black bros and sis comment, however well-meaning. People need to think of Southerners as exactly what we are and were, in all our manifestations. If one doesn't learn from the past, we're destined to repeat it. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:47:40 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net Subject: NJC Sweet Home Alabama Having read Laura's reply, which is very meaningful to me as she writes from her experience and heart, and she is such a dear person and I love her, I have to yet say that I find myself aligned with Julius. That line "everybody loves the gov'nor" still for me conjures up George Wallace proclaimng "segregation yesterday, segregation today, segregatiuon forever." As a northener, a blue stater in the Civil War (not the War between the States but the War of Treason against America), I think the Confederate flag is an obscenity since it was raised to destroy to destroy the Union to preserve slavery. So I am predisposed to Julius' perspective and I never popular at Southern picnics. On that last, I know - when I visit friends in Georgia we've agreed there are subjects we will never discuss. As for that song Sweet Home Alabama: I think the definitve word on that was given by (who else) Eminem. (You thought I'd post without an Eminem reference? Ha!) In the first part of 8 Mile, when Em does his take off on Sweet Home Alabama, he reveals it as the ultimate song and anythem of trailer parkers forever. I don't know how that scene plays in the South, but Detroit and western Michigan have their share of rednecks and Eminem doing that song in that context has always gotten a huge movie audience sustained laugh! Vinceminem - -------------- Original message -------------- > Julius wrote: > > I can't endure it any longer...I hate that feckin' song ("Sweet Home > Alabama") and every time I hear it I have to resist the urge to hurl. I've > always > seen it as a segregationist anthem and a diss of the good intentions of Neil > Young. Does no one listen to lyrics at all anymore? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:16:20 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? njc Julius wrote: If one doesn't learn from the past, we're destined to repeat it. Hi again Julius, Cool that your mother was born in Little Rock! I'm in North Little Rock, right across the river. Yes, if one doesn't learn from the past it will be repeated. And, we have learned, and are learning. Also, if one doesn't let go of the past, there will be no growth. I'm sorry if I offended you. I sure didn't mean to. I meant the comment about the beautiful smiles on the black southern men and women. I take great joy in these and see them often. Let me tell you something about myself since you told me your southern history. My parents were both from Michigan, both having grandparents who immigrated from Europe. I was born in Newfoundland, Canada. The obstetrician who delivered me was a black man, Dr. Page. So, the first hands to touch me were black. My mother was a grade school teacher and had both black and white students in her classroom in 1954. I wasn't raised with prejudice nor the concept of segregation. I moved to Arkansas in 1970 when I was about 12 years old and have lived in the south ever since. I was here when the bussing for integration was in its infancy, and my mother was a grade school teacher here at that time. Her best friends were black teachers who were like other mothers to me. The church I go to now has a pastor who is a black man and an associate pastor who is a black man. I'm close to my pastor and fit in with his family and love to sing duets with him at our church services. For a while, he was my spiritual director. My patron saint is St. Augustine who was an African bishop. Segregation was never a part of my life and still isn't. I don't see in segregated colors. Love, Laura PS. The very first rock concert I went to here in Little Rock was Lynard Skynard. Cool show! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:29:11 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net Subject: More Southern Arguments NJC Now as contemptable as I find "the Cause" I agree here with Mack. The Nazis perpetrayted genocide. The Confederacy - atrocities commited, as they were by the North, by the Colonists, and by our troops (my son, an active duty Marine) in Iraq, Gitmo, and elsewhere (and in my day, Nam) (such is the nature of war) - was about slavery and not genocide. There is a difference. I suspect the most rabid racists of the South then (and now) would have approved every African America being removed to Africa. The Nazis would not accept Jewish relocation - they wanted genocide. Vince > Mack writes: > > > --Comparing the Confederate army to the Nazis is not comparable... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:31:35 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Sweet Home Alabama Vince wrote: when Em does his take off on Sweet Home Alabama, he reveals it as the ultimate song and anythem of trailer parkers forever. Hi Vince! LOLLLLLLLLLLL this reminds me of Bill Clinton on the day of the dedication of the library saying in his speech that some have commented the library looks like a huge house trailer and admitting it might be fitting if it does because he has some redneck in him. I love rednecks!!!! I thought so much of Billy Jeff for being willing to stand up for his southern redneckism. That's the way I see the confederate flag too... it means so much more than the Civil War. It's much more progressive than that. When it flies, I see it as the flier saying, "I love my ancestery, mistakes and all." It doesn't say the mistakes were good nor that they should be perpetuated... not at all. It instead speaks of strong family bonds, something very admirable about the South. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:33:50 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net Subject: the Cause NJC Having agreed with part of Mack's post, I will disagree here. No matter how it is sliced and diced, that war was about slavery. All about it and only about it. Vince Mack opined: Slavery was a very small part of the reason for that war, in > my opinion ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:50:02 +0000 From: revrvl@comcast.net Subject: NJC God Forgivc America Got this in the mail today. Timely in light of our discussoions of the past. Vince email below: Attorney General Gonzales wrote the memorandum stating that Iraqi prisoners are not covered under the Geneva Convention and that torture could be used on them. Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld authorized the elite group of interrogators sent to Iraq that sanctioned the torture and sexual abuse of prisoners there. This is not the American Way. At least it wasn't until the Bush Junta took over the white house. Regardless of whether you are a Democrat or Republican I hope you do not condone the torture and sexual abuse of prisoners under American control regardless of how they became our prisoners. I also hope you believe that the men at the top who authorized such torture and sexual abuse of prisoners should be held accountable. The torture and sexual abuse of prisoners has greatly shamed America in the eyes of the world and has done as much to inflame our insurgent and terrorists enemies against us as our immoral invasion of Iraq. Join me and the Center for Constitutional Rights in demanding a special prosecutor investigate Rusmfeld and Gonzales for torture. Take action now at http://www.democracyinaction.org/ccr/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=394 Thanks for your help. Thanks for standing up and being a true American patriot. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:59:17 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: the Cause NJC > Having agreed with part of Mack's post, I will disagree here. No matter how it is > sliced and diced, that war was about slavery. All about it and only about it. Oh Vince, are you ever opening up a can of worms with THAT statement! Not too long ago I got involved in that very same debate on another list (remember, Em?), and it turns out (of course) that it depends on your Southern or Northern point of view. Also, last weekend my partner Mary was reading to me from "The Civil War for Dummies" (yes, that books really exists), and it seems that Lincoln made the war about slavery quite a bit after it started. It didn't begin that way. As always, people in power use others' issues -- regardless of how dreadful those issues are and nevermind that they should have been addressed and remedied forever ago -- to further their own cause. It has nothing to do with helping anyone but themselves. If ending slavery and treating blacks really HAD been the issue, then why did "equal rights" take so long to achieve? For that matter, why are blacks in the U.S., in so many cases, still being treated like shit? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:02:56 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: another canadian s/s jumps ship -- njc > "There was a turning point during the ceremony where I felt connected to this country in a way that I didn't quite expect," she said. When was that? When she pledged allegiance to the almighty American dollar? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:13:30 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: The South njc despite being part of maybe 3(?) minorities that could feel uncomfortable anywhere that bubba reigns, I love the south and feel so very much at home here. A complex and complicated place this South; I like the way author Pat Conroy comes to terms with it. I've left a few times and always feel like I'm coming home upon return. Not just home to my house, but to the part of the earth where my butt is supposed to be. I've heard and been part of the confederate flag argument before, and nobody ever wins! Because it deals with very deep-felt emotions on all sides. I finally (after having argued it the other way) have come to accept that the Conf flag means hate and scariness to too many people for me to defend it any more. Their perception is what ended up being important. I swore up and down it couldn't possibly mean that, and then I asked some of my African American friends and they were like, yeah, it DOES connote that, actually. But I feel much more comfortable and safe here (in Florida) than in, say, Idaho. That said, southern culture and history occupy a huge piece of my heart now, baby, and here I stay. Now lets all listen to the Band, doing "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down", then Hickory Wind, then Tupelo Honey, then 7 Bridges Road, and be peaceful. (thats just an invitation) Or at least I'd like to think one or 3 of ye might join me in that? :) Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:14:28 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC God Forgivc America > Attorney General Gonzales wrote the memorandum stating that Iraqi prisoners > are not covered under the Geneva Convention and that torture could be used on > them. Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld authorized the elite group of interrogators > sent to Iraq that sanctioned the torture and sexual abuse of prisoners there. Aren't these the same yahoos who want more controls on our media, etc., so we can protect the "moral fabric" of the U.S.? Where are THEIR morals?????????? "elite group of interrogators" <-- what a strange combination of words. Lori, a little too close to DC and REALLY wishing I could take a short trip downtown and get away with some shit ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:15:59 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC God Forgivc America And ... I hate to say this, Vince darling, but if there is a god, s/he will NOT be forgiving America, not unless we got off our lazy asses and get these m*f*ers out of power. That includes me and my lazy ass. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:19:09 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: the Cause NJC - --- Lori Fye wrote: > > Not too long ago I got involved in that very same debate on another > list (remember, Em?), and it turns out (of course) that it depends on > your Southern or Northern point of view. oh yeah Lori, I do remember. I really twisted a gut over that one. Lots of us did. sigh...I had to evolve. Just a shift... Em :( ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:40:52 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Muller Subject: NJC Re: Anybody watch the Grammy Awards? JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: While this is certainly true, Elvin got lumped in with the Southern Rockers on the basis of his inclusion in Charlie Daniels' "South's Gonna Do It Again": "Elvin Bishop sittin' on a bale of hay, he ain't good lookin' but he sure can play"... His LP "Juke Joint Jump" was one my favorites for a long time; "Sure Feels Good" always lifts my spirits. Hey, if Joni's a folksinger, then Elvin can be a Southern Rocker, right? Besides, there's a reeeal thin line between blues rock and southern rock. It's all good. And I admit that I while I enjoy Lynyrd Skynrd's music, I don't agree with their politics or what they say in all of their songs. Like Joni, they deride the music business ("Working For MCA") And I do groove on Billy Powell's piano, their 3-guitar attack, and the way they can take a song like JJ Cale's "Call Me The Breeze" and make it a Southern Boogie rocker par excellence. Bob, off to see "Hotel Rwanda" NP: Cassandra, "Find Him" Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2005 #77 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)