From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2005 #68 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, February 12 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 068 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: goat dance dude is Carey! (?) ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] re: Big Brother is coming, njc ["mike pritchard" ] RE: Cher aging gracefully NJC ["David Henderson" ] re: Big Brother is coming, njc [Garret ] flowery critiquing ["David Henderson" ] RE: goat dance NOW: masking tape and ice cream castles ["Lama, Jim L'Homm] Re: flowery critiquing ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Sharing Top 50 songs, njc ["Mark or Travis" ] RE: ice cream castles, what about Liza? -- NJC [Smurf ] RE: flowery critiquing ["David Henderson" ] NJC re: Big Brother is coming, njc ["Kate Bennett" ] (njc) Cher on tour ["Brian Hernandez" ] NJC Speaking of Dylan, long ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Sharing Top 50 songs, njc ["mike pritchard" ] RE: Sherelle's list NJC - now Carole King ["hell" ] RE: goat dance NOW: masking tape and ice cream castles [Catherine McKay <] Re: Carly Torch NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Sharing Top 50 songs, njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC Speaking of Dylan, long [Em ] Re: State of the List now JC [Phyliss ] Re: State of the List now JC (NJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Carly Torch NJC [colin ] Re: flowery critiquing [colin ] Re: Carly Torch NJC [colin ] RE: goat dance NOW: masking tape and ice cream castles ["Lama, Jim L'Homm] reality tv njc [tantra_apso ] Re: Top 50 NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Sherelle's list NJC - now Carole King ["mackoliver" Subject: RE: goat dance dude is Carey! (?) Agreed, sure. One of Joni's supernatural abilties is to simultaneously avoid hitting the meter with sing-song accuracy while making the meter work with inhuman mouthfuls. I think she does it primarily with phrasing but before I jump to any wild conclusions, I intend to spend another 5 or 6 decades in careful study. Lama From: hell [mailto:hell@ihug.co.nz] >Yeah, but two syllables works better than four in that lyric, which it would have been had she said electrical tape - I think that's called "artistic license" ;o)!> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:00:06 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: State of the List NJC Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > On top of that, the boss is posting. Bruce Sprinstein is posting to the JMDL??? Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:06:27 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: re: Big Brother is coming, njc >>Synchronicity here: Yesterday i finished reading Nineteen Eighty Four (i think my heart is broke), and had just read Brave New World and We. My dystopian sensibilities are in full swing at the moment.<< Dr Mike advises you to avoid early Leonard Cohen, any Ultravox and positively nothing at all by Joy Division. Was any band ever as badly named as this last one? mike in barcelona np - Pascal Comelade & Polly Jean Harvey ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:08:22 -0500 From: "David Henderson" Subject: RE: Cher aging gracefully NJC Don't get me wrong. I do love standards. I just don't think it's what everyone does best. And it does seem to be more and more typical for pop/rock singers of a certain age to turn to standards late in life for a free ride when so many great lifelong singers of standards like Diane Schurr, Diane Reeves and Patti Austin never seem to catch a break. I think Joni's song selection for Both Sides Now is great, and I actually loved her concert of these tunes. But honestly, her voice makes me uncomfortable on this CD. Her late-in-life, smoker's voice doesn't bother me when she sings her own tunes, but on these songs, it makes me for sad for her and interferes with my ability to just enjoy the songs . . . I do like Comes Love, good job, cool song . . . and the cover is my favorite of her self portraits. David NP Green Day, Holiday >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Mark or Travis [mailto:mark.travis@gte.net] >>>Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 1:16 PM >>>To: David Henderson; Joni Mitchell List >>>Subject: Re: Cher aging gracefully NJC >>> >>> >>>David Henderson wrote: >>>> Oh Mark, and I was just becoming so fond of you - "It would be a way >>>> for Cher to age a little more gracefully" . . . What? I think Cher is >>>> the coolest, most down to earth singer on the planet (other than Joni >>>> of course), and she is aging with a beautifully-adjusted, kick-ass, >>>> eye-to-the-future attitude that is lacking in so many her age (and >>>> even many much younger). IMHO Most rock/pop singers, when they >>>> record "the standards album," that's the end. They are wallowing in >>>> the past, singing music they were never meant to sing, complaining >>>> that the music world is not what it used to be, blah blah blah, one >>>> foot in the grave. And not so much fun to be around and definitely >>>> not "aging gracefully." I know I'm in a much happier place because >>>> Cher recorded Not Enough Love in the World and Believe and The >>>> Music's No Good Without You than if she had added to the endless >>>> versions of Over the Rainbow and Someone to Watch Over Me. >>>> >>>> And while I'm ranting, would could be better than Cher being Cher? I >>>> think others should try it! >>> >>>I have no problem with Cher being Cher. That's what I meant >>>when I said part of me wants to say >>>'You go, girl!' I love her sassiness and her in-your-face way >>>of saying just what's on her mind. >>>But I do think she's just about reached the end of the line as >>>far as strutting around stage in skin >>>tight costumes with her ass hanging out and singing dance club >>>numbers in a synthesized voice is >>>concerned. How many farewell tours has she done now? And if >>>she has any more work done on her face >>>she's going to have to take up permanent residence in Madame >>>Toussaud's pretty soon. She was on >>>'Will and Grace' a few years ago and she looked like a corpse, >>>imo (or worse, like Joan Rivers). >>>Both cosmetically and physically, she's not going to be able to >>>do it forever. >>> >>>And I don't suggest that Cher should record 'Over the Rainbow' >>>or 'Someone to Watch Over Me'. There >>>was a sultry quality to her voice that seemed to come very >>>naturally to her those many years ago >>>when she sang 'Am I Blue?' on tv. I'm talking about torch >>>songs, songs with heartbreak and gut not >>>'The Good Ship Lollypop'. >>> >>>I guess you didn't think much of Joni's 'Both Sides Now' cd, huh, David? >>> >>>To each his own! >>> >>>Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:42:47 +0000 From: Garret Subject: re: Big Brother is coming, njc Quoting mike pritchard : > Dr Mike advises you to avoid early Leonard Cohen, any Ultravox and positively > nothing at all by Joy Division. Was any band ever as badly named as this last > one? Lol How about Sonic Youth? GARRET NP- Bob Dylan, Lay Lady Lay - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:37:14 -0500 From: "David Henderson" Subject: flowery critiquing COLIN WROTE: >Both have talent, imo, and both bring me much pleasure. I don't compare >them and I don't qualify or quanitfy(?). The beauty of their work is >very much in the ear of the listener and I have little time for poncy >analysis of their works by people who like to try and appear ever so >more intelligent or more sensitive than the rest of us. Either we enjoy >something or we don't. No amount of flowery critiquing will make a jot >of difference. I know I brought this on, and I did not mean to offend you personally because of my intense dislike of this one particular LP. Don't you think part of the "discussion" of art is to spar? I think it's heathly, and I like a good argument. I should have been a lawyer! I know criticism can be painful and/or annoying when it's a negative opinion of something you like, but all in all, I think criticism makes us stop and think more deeply about the art in question. I have always thought that in a world without criticism, most people would barely "glance" at most art. IMHO David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:56:08 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: goat dance NOW: masking tape and ice cream castles I 'get' that one. I'd bet she started with "castles in the air", a cliche for an impossible fantasy. During revision, I'll bet they became "ice cream castles", which complements the childhood metaphor. All the best, Jim Bob Murphy puzzled over, >Now ice cream castles, there's one I just never have gotten. Wouldn't they melt? And how could they just stay up there "in the air."> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:06:58 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: flowery critiquing David Henderson wrote: I know criticism can be painful and/or annoying when it's a negative > opinion of something you like, but all in all, I think criticism > makes us stop and think more deeply about the art in question. I > have always thought that in a world without criticism, most people > would barely "glance" at most art. IMHO > Depends on what you call criticism. There's a fine line between criticism and taking cheap shots, imo. Too much of what passes for criticism in the various printed and broadcast media nowadays takes the form of nasty sound bites calcuated to titillate and sound smart, if you ask me. Entertaining yes, but not much value in the way of real criticism. Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:09:56 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Sharing Top 50 songs, njc mike pritchard wrote: > I have a suggestion too. How about all the people who are going to > JoniFrance take a CD-R with their top 50 songs in mp3 format. Then > one of the techie folk who has brought her/his laptop with a cd > burner can jack it in and we can all go home with gazillions of new > songs. What say you, good people? So this means that only people who attend Jonifest in France can parcipate in this 'sharing'? Mark E, unfortunately (in this case) staying in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:25:44 -0800 (PST) From: Smurf Subject: RE: ice cream castles, what about Liza? -- NJC - --- "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: >Bob Murphy puzzled over, >Now ice cream castles, there's one I just never have >gotten. Wouldn't they melt? And how could they just >stay up there "in the air." I guess no one knows when I'm joking if I can't be there large as life and in glorious technicolor to roll my icy baby blues, circled with compromise though they may be. (Although I would like to take Mags and the entire Canadian contingent up on the offer to come see the ice cream castles over Paprika Plains. I hope CFT can be there!) --Smurf, running out to the bike shop but really wanting to post on everything being discussed lately. Melanie, Carly, Cher, Dory, Judy ... isn't anyone straight anymore!? And what about that Liza? Bette? Diana? Donna Summer? PS: Congrats on the babies, Laura! NP: Covers Volume LXI, which arrived all the way from Dixie today __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:40:43 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Sherelle's list NJC >5. Our Day Will Come-Ruby & the Romantics< This song is forever ingrained in my memory as one of the first songs I ever heard on the radio, when I used to fall asleep listening & entranced to my little transistor under the covers... another song in that same era was 'hey hey paula'... then the beatles hit the airwaves & oh my! They changed everything ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:51:49 -0500 From: "David Henderson" Subject: RE: flowery critiquing True. Some aim to entertain too much. Some 'rave for pay' here in New York. Some just hate everything for the sake of hating everything like John Simon. And some wield far too much power like The New York Times. Still, they all contribute to the dialogue that encourages us to evaluate or reevalute what's in front of us. In general, I enjoy the battle, the frank and open discussion of music, theatre, etc., on a person level as well in the media. I do wish the media would be more responsible in its presentation, but sometimes it seems that industry is spiraling out of control, if it's not already completely out of control. David >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Mark or Travis [mailto:mark.travis@gte.net] >>>Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 3:07 PM >>>To: David Henderson; Joni Mitchell List >>>Subject: Re: flowery critiquing >>> >>> >>>David Henderson wrote: >>> I know criticism can be painful and/or annoying when it's a negative >>>> opinion of something you like, but all in all, I think criticism >>>> makes us stop and think more deeply about the art in question. I >>>> have always thought that in a world without criticism, most people >>>> would barely "glance" at most art. IMHO >>>> >>> >>>Depends on what you call criticism. There's a fine line between >>>criticism and taking cheap shots, >>>imo. Too much of what passes for criticism in the various >>>printed and broadcast media nowadays >>>takes the form of nasty sound bites calcuated to titillate and >>>sound smart, if you ask me. >>>Entertaining yes, but not much value in the way of real criticism. >>> >>>Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:50:59 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: NJC re: Big Brother is coming, njc >My son's (Nathan) best childhood friend, Jeff, started college this last fall along with Nate. Anyway, Jeff's parents had given him too much independence too soon, and he didn't fare well and apply himself his first semester. Nate told me that Jeff told him he had flunked out. Anyway, thanks to The Patriot Act and/or No Child Left Behind (what ironic names), the military recruiters were able to identify him as a failing college student and honed in and make him some offers; big college scholarships, job training, etc. Jeff took the bait, signed the line, and dropped by at Christmas to tell us he was reporting for basic training December 28. I don't know that he's in Iraq yet but will certainly end up there. Just hope he doesn't come back wrapped in a flag.< Same kind of story as my nephew who didn't flunk out but struggled to finish high school... I don't know the details of how the recruiters contacted him but the next thing we all knew is he'd signed up for the military... fortunately he is in the airforce (the safest place to be I am told) as a jet mechanic & aside from his basic training in texas, he has been stationed in germany ever since... his family (my sister) is a big supporter of gwb & his holy war so I'm sure that played into it also... here in California kids have other options if they want them such as community college many of which are very highly rated & have excellent support services for kids who might struggle a bit academically... including helping kids get into 4 year universitys & colleges... unfortunately the tuition (which has been traditionally very very low) has gone up recently... but any kid can qualify for admission at California resident rates after living here a year... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:25:13 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Carly Torch NJC >I think Carly's handicap with some people( and I am not referring to you and your opinion of this album) is that she is perceived as a spoilt rich girl and therefore has nothing to say. Inverted snobbery. Some have even said she cannot sing or can't sing in tune which makes them sound stupid. We can't all like the same singers but to make such dumb satements about why is beyond me.< I am one who hears her singing off key... I can't help it I just do & always have... although I think she has a great sense of harmony & shines in that vocal role when signing with others ... perhaps it is similar to those who dislike joni's voice for whatever reasons... don't think it's a matter of intelligence but rather taste & perhaps we all hear a bit differently too (tones & such)... anyway as a person, I have always admired Carly & thought she was down to earth & warm & a wonderful mom in raising her kids far from the limelight (even though now they are both in it but it is probably a given with both parents in the biz) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:11:59 -0800 From: "Brian Hernandez" Subject: (njc) Cher on tour Saw Mark's post about Cher's ongoing "Farewell Tour" and how long it's been going on. I just read a review of her tour the other day...apparently the tour is now on it's third year and she's hitting all the small towns around the country, having hit the major stops in her first two years...the reviewer referred to it as the "Never Can Say Goodbye" tour! I still agree with Mark...Cher, "you go girl!" Brian [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:30:44 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: NJC Speaking of Dylan, long I went to see joni first & foremost (the van, joni, bob tour) & thought she was fabulous but to me dylan ROCKED! His band was awesome & imo he stole the show (I don't think it would have been the same if he'd had a smaller band like joni)... van was great but didn't rock my world... Same thing happened to me at a neil young show a few years ago- he was incredible- one of the best shows I've ever been to... I think both bob & neil have had some bad years but that both of them have risen to new heights in recent years (in terms of performance) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:57:39 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Sharing Top 50 songs, njc >>So this means that only people who attend Jonifest in France can parcipate in this 'sharing'?<< I guess the people who come over could take back their copies and get stuff circulating once they get home. M - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark or Travis" To: "mike pritchard" ; "list" Cc: "laurent olszer" Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:09 PM Subject: Re: Sharing Top 50 songs, njc > mike pritchard wrote: > > I have a suggestion too. How about all the people who are going to > > JoniFrance take a CD-R with their top 50 songs in mp3 format. Then > > one of the techie folk who has brought her/his laptop with a cd > > burner can jack it in and we can all go home with gazillions of new > > songs. What say you, good people? > > So this means that only people who attend Jonifest in France can parcipate in this 'sharing'? > > Mark E, unfortunately (in this case) staying in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:18:34 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: RE: Sherelle's list NJC - now Carole King Mark wrote: > I bought the cd of 'Rhymes and Reasons' a while back. I remember > buying this record in the fall of > my freshman year of college. I was a misfit, living in a dorm > with a bunch of rowdy young het guys. > This was 1972 and being 'out' was a very scary proposition. I > did love this record. 'Feeling Sad > Tonight'....'always feeling half right and half sad/halfway > dreaming of some safe place away from > school'...struck a chord. But somehow, listening to it now, it > didn't sound quite the same. Kind > of awkward and klunky. It made me think about Carole King and > how she seemed to lose her edge not > long after she acheived her greatest success with 'Tapestry'. I > think maybe she tried too hard to > be a 'singer/songwriter' after that album and lost some of that > r&b groove that made her Brill > Building stuff turn to gold in the hands of people like Aretha > Franklin and The Shirelles. She > balanced perfectly between the old and new on 'Tapestry'. But at > some point she went over the edge > and she just couldn't carry off the introspective poet thang like > Joni and James and a few others > could. 'Been to Canaan' is still a very nice song, though, and > was one of my favorites. It still > sounds good. I definitely agree with Mark. I was a huge fan of Carole King through my early teens - starting with Tapestry, which my brother gave me for Xmas when I was about 11. He said, "You may not like it now, but you will one day." He was right - I didn't like it at first (I was still listening to Abba and The BeeGees at the time), but it grew on me quickly. After falling in love with Tapestry, Rhymes and Reasons was the first "real" album I bought myself, as opposed to compilations. As an aside, NZ must be the land of compilations. We were responsible for "The World of Joni Mitchell - which I believe was the only Joni compilation available until Hits and Misses. There was a very popular series called "Solid Gold" (although I don't know if these were unique to NZ) and it was always a big deal to have the latest edition, eg. Solid Gold Volume 12, etc. I absolutely loved Carole King, and bought all of her albums, even Now That Everything's Been Said, her very first album with Danny Korthmar and Charles Larkey - predating Tapestry and Writer. But as I grew older, I found her lyrics increasingly "trite" and after discovering Joni at 16, I became somewhat disillusioned with Carole's work. She never seemed to lose that "pop song" thing that worked so well when she was writing at the Brill Building - which is not a bad thing, but lyrically (IMO) she was at her best with Tapestry. Having said that, there are still some real gems to be found, and I'll include some of my favourites (and the album), some of which are the less well-known of her songs: No Easy Way Down - Writer It's Going To Take Some Time - Music Sweet Seasons - Music Been To Caanan - Rhymes And Reasons Jazzman - Wrap Around Joy Wrap Around Joy - Wrap Around Joy Welcome Home - Welcome Home You Still Want Her - Touch The Sky Crazy - Touch The Sky (This song has one of my all-time favourite lyrics: "You see security in the chrome American dream, but I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes") I'd be interested to see anyone else's favourite Carole King songs - other than those found on Tapestry. Hell _________________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:59:01 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: goat dance NOW: masking tape and ice cream castles Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm willing to bet a whole lotta money that Smurfalicious had his tongue very firmly in his cheek (no! not that one!) when he made his "ice-cream castles" statement. --- "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: > I 'get' that one. > > I'd bet she started with "castles in the air", a > cliche for an impossible > fantasy. During revision, I'll bet they became "ice > cream castles", which > complements the childhood metaphor. > > All the best, > Jim > > Bob Murphy puzzled over, > >Now ice cream castles, there's one I just never > have > gotten. Wouldn't they melt? And how could they just > stay up there "in the air."> > ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:06:45 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Carly Torch NJC Colin wrote: > >I think Carly's handicap with some people( and I am > not referring to you > and your opinion of this album) is that she is > perceived as a spoilt > rich girl and therefore has nothing to say. Inverted > snobbery. Some have > even said she cannot sing or can't sing in tune > which makes them sound > stupid. We can't all like the same singers but to > make such dumb > satements about why is beyond me.< --- Kate Bennett wrote: > I am one who hears her singing off key... I can't > help it I just do & always > have... although I think she has a great sense of > harmony & shines in that > vocal role when signing with others ... perhaps it > is similar to those who > dislike joni's voice for whatever reasons... don't > think it's a matter of > intelligence but rather taste & perhaps we all hear > a bit differently too > (tones & such)... anyway as a person, I have always > admired Carly & thought > she was down to earth & warm & a wonderful mom in > raising her kids far from > the limelight (even though now they are both in it > but it is probably a > given with both parents in the biz) Just to show how much our tastes really do differ... I'm not terribly fond of Carly's singing. Never could get into it even if I did enjoy some of her stuff. But I DO like her version of "My Romance", strangely enough. I don't particularly notice her being off-key at all though. And though I know Carly came from a rich family, I don't think of her as a spoiled brat at all. She comes across as a very down-to-earth person. I'd love to chat with her, but could probably do without the singing. And I absolutely LOVE Bjork. I think the woman is a friggin' genius - and yet I understand how she could irritate some people. I think there should be some kind of moratorium on any more recordings of "Somewhere over the rainbow" though. Yep, it's a great song, but jeez - enough already! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:12:27 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Sharing Top 50 songs, njc --- mike pritchard wrote: > >>So this means that only people who attend Jonifest > in France can parcipate > in this 'sharing'?<< > > I guess the people who come over could take back > their copies and get stuff > circulating once they get home. > How about those who are going to France but who don't plan to make any top 50 lists? Huh? What aboudit? See the trouble you cause, Pritchard? Seriously now, if you save mp3s to a CD, as opposed to burning a CD, does that mean you can pack in 10x as many of the suckers onto one CDR? Is that the difference between an mp3 player and a regular CD player? I never could figure that out, but just realize the new disc player I've got claims to play both mp3 and whatever-the-other-things-are-called. My initial reaction was, "So? Don't they all?" but I guess they don't. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:40:04 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: NJC Speaking of Dylan, long - --- Kate Bennett wrote: > I think both > bob (dylan) & > neil have had some bad years but that both of them have risen to new > heights > in recent years (in terms of performance) I really miss Bob Marley. Wondering what would be.... :( Em ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:23:32 -0500 From: Phyliss Subject: Re: State of the List now JC Sounds like a perfect opportunity to delurk. I'm BaaaaaAAAck! Our move to NC is complete and we are relatively settled so I've been in lurk mode for a few weeks. Glad to see most of the same old crew around. Hello! And hey, I finally move to the right coast and joni-fest gets moved further away. What's up with that? ;-) for the JC... We're getting to know some new neighbors and had a few over for dinner recently. While touring the house they saw (one of) my Joni shrines...4 signed lithos framed large and hung in the stairwell. One proceeded to tell me how she never really cared for Joni that much but recently purchased her "jazz" album (BSN) and just LOVES her voice and singing NOW. For once, someone not lamenting about how she's lost it. Phyliss Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: >Is Mercury in retrograde again? In the past week, Patrick and Ashara have >posted and they're rarely around. Catherine, who's perpetually pinching >pennies, is going to France. We have sunshine in Cincinnati even though it >is February. > >On top of that, the boss is posting. Regularly. Has the Universe gone >wacky? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:21:42 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: State of the List now JC (NJC) In a message dated 2/12/2005 7:11:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, phyliss@goldenfigclay.com writes: > I'm BaaaaaAAAck! Our move > to NC is complete and we are relatively settled so I've been in lurk > mode for a few weeks. Glad to see most of the same old crew around. > Hello! > Phyliss, you're bbbbbbbaaaaackk!! It's so good to see you back on the list. I'm glad your move to NC was sucessful. Now get that pottery wheel spinnin :) Oh there's a CA jonifest! Just kidding! Welcome back! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:27:59 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Carly Torch NJC Kate Bennett wrote: > > shines in that >vocal role when signing with others ... > a contradiction? I shall have to let my friend Gail know that Carly signs her songs...her son, Ashley is deaf... ;-) - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:24:31 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: flowery critiquing David Henderson wrote: > > >I know I brought this on, and I did not mean to offend you personally >because of my intense dislike of this one particular LP. > you didn't offend me. As I pointed out, my comments wer not about you. I often get off on a tangent by some post or other. > Don't you think >part of the "discussion" of art is to spar? I think it's heathly, and I like >a good argument. > I agree. > I think criticism makes us stop and think more deeply about >the art in question. > Not necesarily. > I have always thought that in a world without >criticism, most people would barely "glance" at most art. IMHO > > > well here we do differ. i fail to see any merit in criticism and have thought for a very long time that being a 'critic' for a living is a waste of a life. Yet here I am being a critic! Still, I hear what iw ant to hear, see what i wish, and read whast and i form my own opinion of all i perceive. i don't need someone else to tell me what i should have percevied. We all percieve differently and that is how it is. We have a huge sculpture in this country called The Angle of The North. i think it is wonderful. The genraly consunsus seems to be that is an eyesore. yet to me I find it moves me in a way i can't descroibe. It is HUGE and made of iron, I think, and stands on a hill somehwere in the northeast, arms spread, looking out at the world. Why ought I to care that others think it is dreadful? Does that mean the feeling it elicits from me is counterfeit or not worthy? I also love that piece of music called Popcorn, it makes me feel. The movie, The Sound Of Music, and that fun song Barbie. To most critics I have heard of, they are crap. So be it. Crap moves me...... - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:37:07 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Carly Torch NJC Catherine McKay wrote: > > >Just to show how much our tastes really do differ... >I'm not terribly fond of Carly's singing. > i doesn't bother me in the slightest that a person wouldn't enjoy carly's singing. it bothers me when it is said she can't sing or is no good. I don't like Bjork, nor dylan, nor countless others but I wouldn't say they were bad. I adore most of Joni's work. However, i said of BSN when it was told she was going to do it, that i thought it was amistake but she doesn't have the voice for it. I haven't changed my mind. However, others like ti and I wouldn't say it was bad, just not to my taste. I read a review of craly's last album, and it made me angry. why? because I thought the man(surpirse surprise) who wrote it hadn't listened to it and understood little about people. He said that it was melody less and was a self indulgent piece about self pity! He also pulled out Actress as a song in his opinion that was about her and her jealousy of young females!!!! What a wanker! First off, the songs are melodious, they are not self pity at all but to the point, honest and raw(bear in mind this written affter her mastectomy) and that song Actress is very funny and not at all about jealousy. Whislt i have little time for critics, at leats if youa re going to set yourself up as one, listen to the work properly, and at least have some understanding about humanity first! bw colin - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:43:57 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: goat dance NOW: masking tape and ice cream castles Gees, I apologized off-list. Now I'll apologize publicly. **** For immediate release: **** Mr. L'Hommedieu apologizes for presuming to explain "Both Sides Now" to Bob Murphy. Mr. Murphy's credentials as an expert on Joni's lyrics are beyond reproach. His sly humor is a valued, daily fixture on the JMDL (now that he's over that new-non-smoker thing.) Mr. L'Hommedieu had just arisen from bed, late on Saturday, and was groggy. This is not an excuse for posting recklessly. He admits to being too quick to rush into "Lit class mode" and somehow missed Mr. Murphy's ever-present humo(u)r. To save Les from the embarrassment, he is taking a self-imposed break from the JMDL, effective immediately. He intends to devote more time to his family and in service to the Lord. **** Lama :) np: Ricki Lee Jones' live take on "My Funny Valentine" (on a vinyl EP) courtesy of our Beloved singer-songwriter station, WNKU. From: Catherine McKay >I'm willing to bet a whole lotta money that Smurfalicious had his tongue very firmly in his cheek (no! not that one!) when he made his "ice-cream castles" statement.> --- "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" > I'd bet she started with "castles in the air", a > cliche for an impossible > fantasy. During revision, I'll bet they became "ice > cream castles", which > complements the childhood metaphor. > Bob Murphy puzzled over, > >Now ice cream castles, there's one I just never >> have gotten. Wouldn't they melt? >> And how could they just >> stay up there "in the air.">> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:00:02 +0000 From: tantra_apso Subject: reality tv njc There are so many of these shows now. John and were discussing them. We don't like them but have seen quite a few, if not whole series of them. We think they are the modern day equivalent of 'feeding people to the lions'. The shows are abusive, cruel, humiliating and the more so the better for the ratings it seems. I am shocked at some of it, and more so at thsoe that agree to go on tehm. Recently, Germaine Greer agreed to go on Big Brother. Her money was going to an evrinomental cause. She ahd always been anti reality tv shows for much the same reasons as John and i dislike them. Anywa, she walked off the show. She showed grteat courage and humitly and integrity by doing so. She said she had made a big mistake and should have stuck to her roiginal view. Going on the show had shown to her that indeed they were abusive and she left because she could not be a prty to the bullying and cruelty and abuse. NO ONE in the press, that i read, or pundits on tv, recognized her integrity but all slated her.(rahter like when abusers get the whilstle blown on them, they trash the blower). Have we really got so bad that we cannot see good qualities in people anymore? That we don't recognize integrity, compassion, or righteousness anymore? Many comedians rely on humiliating living targets, rely on cruelty for laughs. And it seems we laugh along with them judging by their popularity. We adore falsehood. People like Joan Collins, Joan Rivers and Cher are revered for their lack of accpetence of life and aging, for qaulities they got from a surgeon. For their so called strength which appears to be gained from trashing others. We seem to admire people all for the wrong reasons. Great female actors are dismissed if they don't have a 25 yr old's body and plastic looks. Ancinet male actors are protrayed in roles with wives young enough to be their grandchild and with children who could be theri great grandchi;ldren. Older women actors find ti hard to get work. Imagine the uproar if Shirley Maclaine, Jane fonda, Meryl Streep, Susan sarandon played a role on film with a 25 year old husband!!!! We get films that are supposed to be true which are in fact lies(Beutiful Mind, Troy, Enigma Code, whatever that was called), films made about criminals which make them out to be heroes, or just plain gor and violence amde out to be art and meaningful where the gullibel and right on revere the directors of such. Not only has intergity, morality, comapssion, kindness, etc gone out of the window, but it seems that such qualiteis are not even recognized anymore and when they are they are mocked or seen as weakness. And god help you if you seek peace and think war is wrong for you will be vilified as seen as a traitor. And now, if you are not a racist, you are also seen as a traitor. What a sad way to go. Howevrr, there is still much good. There are still those among us who know what love really is, who undertsand peace, compassion, kindness and who still practice these things. The news we here will always be bad. We have got so weird only bad news causes a thrill and it is only bad news that will come over the aiorwavews or in print to us. Imagine if instead we got news about the daily acts of love, of knidess, of compassion, the miracles that happen? Imagine if our minds were swamped with good instead of bad/ - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:35:09 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Top 50 NJC I've been wondering why this never showed up on the list. Then I look at my sent files and discover I didn't cc the JMDL. Senior moment #5,757. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Muller > Didn't know that she recorded/released three different versions of it, Mark. All I know is that the one(s) I heard didn't move me as much as the synchopated BST version. Check it out if you get a chance, I'd like to hear what you think. I'll take David Clayton-Thomas' vocal over Billie anyday. Stevie Wonder did a version of it as well, in the late 60's, that was nice...but then again, it's Stevie. Now me: And it's being Stevie doesn't mean that much to me. But to each his own, Bob. If you're not into Billie, you're not into her and nothing I can say is likely to change your opinion. I am glad that you recognize her contribution, though. One thing I will say is that Billie was singing the songs of another era and some of them sound trite to our ears that have been attuned to the lyrics of Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan et al. Part of Billie's genius was to make those sometimes mediocre lyrics sound like something basic and elementally profound. I was listening to Nina Simone sing 'Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues' last night while driving home. My friend Melanie made a compilation of Nina and gave me a copy. Listening to it recently makes me thing both Joan Armatrading and Tracey Chapman owe something to Nina in their singing styles. Thinking about Billie in the context of Bob's post got me to thinking about how Nina Simone came just enough later (and survived long enough) that she managed to tap into the material that our generation claims as its own. Nina also covered quite a few songs that were closely associated with Billie Holiday. I read recently (maybe it was an article somebody posted here) that k. d. lang was trying to establish a new set of 'standards' when she recorded 'Hymns of the 49th Parallel', the standards of our generation. I think Judy Collins was doing this way back in the 60s. I wonder if Billie would ever have tackled a Bob Dylan song if she'd lived long enough? John Hammond supposedly 'discovered' both of them so there is a connection. I've tried to imagine her singing a Joni song. Sometimes I amuse myself by trying to sing a Joni song a la Billie. I've been most successful with 'Moon at the Window'. Move over, David Sedaris, here I come! In case anybody's interested: Billie Holiday first recorded 'God Bless the Child' in 1941 on the Okeh label. This is my favorite recording of the song. It has a sophisticated Swing Era sound and Billie's voice was pretty much at its peak about this time. The next version of the song was recorded for Decca in 1950. It has a vocal chorus behind Billie that just sounds completely wrong and doesn't jive with Billie's intimate style. If this is the version you've heard, I can understand how you might like somebody else's better. The third 'God Bless the Child' was recorded for Verve in 1956. The arrangement has a laid pack quality to it. For some reason it makes me think of a horse pulling a wagon on a hot summer day, taking its time, sauntering along. Billie's voice had roughened quite a bit by this time. It's a nice version of the song but the first is still my favorite. There's a fascinating recording of a rehearsal session for this song on 'The Complete Billie Holiday on Verve' where Billie's trying to explain to the arranger what she's hearing in her head for the song. It takes a while but they finally work it out. To me it's a thrill to hear a little bit of this amazing artist at work, trying to get it down the way she wants it. I wonder if Billie's method was similar at all to Joni's. GOD BLESS THE CHILD Billie Holiday/Arthur Herzog Jr. Them that's got shall get Them that's not shall lose So the Bible said And it still is news Mama may have Papa may have But God bless the child that's got his own That's got his own Yes the strong gets more While the weak ones fade Empty pockets don't Ever make the grade Mama may have Papa may have But God bless the child that's got his own That's got his own Money you've got lots of friends Crowding round the door When you're gone and spending ends They don't come no more Rich relations give Crusts of bread and such You can help yourself But don't take too much Mama may have Papa may have But God bless the child that's got his own That's got his own He just don't worry 'bout nothin' Cause he's got his own Yes he's got his own Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:07:49 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: Sherelle's list NJC - now Carole King Ah Hell. Love Carole. I put the tune 'You Light Up My Life' in my top fifty. Wasn't easy to pick just one. Thanks Bob. (Smile) Again, think I might have changed it to 'Daughter of Light'at the last moment. Other favorites. Can't think of a thing I don't like about Music or a tune I don't like, very much. Same with Tapestry except Smackwater Jack, don't care too much for that one. Love Fantasy throughout except Haywood. Never could dig that one. Overall Wrap Around Joy and Thoroughbred did slip a bit but have some jewels on them. Jazzman Sweet Adonis Only Love Is Real Daughter of Light Ambrosia Matter of fact, looking over them, I can't find a stinker on either album. Bought 'Speeding Time' a few years later and really had to work to find anything good on it. Couldn't get up the interest to buy anymore after that. Still find King one of the greatest. mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: "hell" To: "Mark or Travis" ; "David Henderson" ; "Joni Mitchell List" Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 4:18 PM Subject: RE: Sherelle's list NJC - now Carole King > Mark wrote: > > > I bought the cd of 'Rhymes and Reasons' a while back. I remember > > buying this record in the fall of > > my freshman year of college. I was a misfit, living in a dorm > > with a bunch of rowdy young het guys. > > This was 1972 and being 'out' was a very scary proposition. I > > did love this record. 'Feeling Sad > > Tonight'....'always feeling half right and half sad/halfway > > dreaming of some safe place away from > > school'...struck a chord. But somehow, listening to it now, it > > didn't sound quite the same. Kind > > of awkward and klunky. It made me think about Carole King and > > how she seemed to lose her edge not > > long after she acheived her greatest success with 'Tapestry'. I > > think maybe she tried too hard to > > be a 'singer/songwriter' after that album and lost some of that > > r&b groove that made her Brill > > Building stuff turn to gold in the hands of people like Aretha > > Franklin and The Shirelles. She > > balanced perfectly between the old and new on 'Tapestry'. But at > > some point she went over the edge > > and she just couldn't carry off the introspective poet thang like > > Joni and James and a few others > > could. 'Been to Canaan' is still a very nice song, though, and > > was one of my favorites. It still > > sounds good. > > I definitely agree with Mark. I was a huge fan of Carole King through my > early teens - starting with Tapestry, which my brother gave me for Xmas when > I was about 11. He said, "You may not like it now, but you will one day." > He was right - I didn't like it at first (I was still listening to Abba and > The BeeGees at the time), but it grew on me quickly. > > After falling in love with Tapestry, Rhymes and Reasons was the first "real" > album I bought myself, as opposed to compilations. As an aside, NZ must be > the land of compilations. We were responsible for "The World of Joni > Mitchell - which I believe was the only Joni compilation available until > Hits and Misses. There was a very popular series called "Solid Gold" > (although I don't know if these were unique to NZ) and it was always a big > deal to have the latest edition, eg. Solid Gold Volume 12, etc. > > I absolutely loved Carole King, and bought all of her albums, even Now That > Everything's Been Said, her very first album with Danny Korthmar and Charles > Larkey - predating Tapestry and Writer. But as I grew older, I found her > lyrics increasingly "trite" and after discovering Joni at 16, I became > somewhat disillusioned with Carole's work. > > She never seemed to lose that "pop song" thing that worked so well when she > was writing at the Brill Building - which is not a bad thing, but lyrically > (IMO) she was at her best with Tapestry. > > Having said that, there are still some real gems to be found, and I'll > include some of my favourites (and the album), some of which are the less > well-known of her songs: > > No Easy Way Down - Writer > It's Going To Take Some Time - Music > Sweet Seasons - Music > Been To Caanan - Rhymes And Reasons > Jazzman - Wrap Around Joy > Wrap Around Joy - Wrap Around Joy > Welcome Home - Welcome Home > You Still Want Her - Touch The Sky > Crazy - Touch The Sky (This song has one of my all-time favourite lyrics: > "You see security in the chrome American dream, but I don't believe in > livin' in the middle > with available extremes") > > I'd be interested to see anyone else's favourite Carole King songs - other > than those found on Tapestry. > > > Hell > _________________________________________ > "To have great poets, there must be great > audiences too" - Walt Whitman > > Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:17:49 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: Sherelle's list NJC - now Carole King And, agree with David on Been to Canaan. Bought it on 45 way back when, still have it, and was super gassed to find that the flip Bitter With The Sweet was a great tune too. mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: "mackoliver" To: "joni" Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:07 PM Subject: Re: Sherelle's list NJC - now Carole King > Ah Hell. Love Carole. > > I put the tune 'You Light Up My Life' in my top fifty. Wasn't easy to pick > just one. Thanks Bob. (Smile) Again, think I might have changed it to > 'Daughter of Light'at the last moment. > > Other favorites. > > Can't think of a thing I don't like about Music or a tune I don't like, very > much. Same with Tapestry except Smackwater Jack, don't care too much for > that one. > > Love Fantasy throughout except Haywood. Never could dig that one. > > Overall Wrap Around Joy and Thoroughbred did slip a bit but have some jewels > on them. > > Jazzman > Sweet Adonis > Only Love Is Real > Daughter of Light > Ambrosia > > Matter of fact, looking over them, I can't find a stinker on either album. > > Bought 'Speeding Time' a few years later and really had to work to find > anything good on it. Couldn't get up the interest to buy anymore after > that. > > Still find King one of the greatest. > > mack > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hell" > To: "Mark or Travis" ; "David Henderson" > ; "Joni Mitchell List" > Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 4:18 PM > Subject: RE: Sherelle's list NJC - now Carole King > > > > Mark wrote: > > > > > I bought the cd of 'Rhymes and Reasons' a while back. I remember > > > buying this record in the fall of > > > my freshman year of college. I was a misfit, living in a dorm > > > with a bunch of rowdy young het guys. > > > This was 1972 and being 'out' was a very scary proposition. I > > > did love this record. 'Feeling Sad > > > Tonight'....'always feeling half right and half sad/halfway > > > dreaming of some safe place away from > > > school'...struck a chord. But somehow, listening to it now, it > > > didn't sound quite the same. Kind > > > of awkward and klunky. It made me think about Carole King and > > > how she seemed to lose her edge not > > > long after she acheived her greatest success with 'Tapestry'. I > > > think maybe she tried too hard to > > > be a 'singer/songwriter' after that album and lost some of that > > > r&b groove that made her Brill > > > Building stuff turn to gold in the hands of people like Aretha > > > Franklin and The Shirelles. She > > > balanced perfectly between the old and new on 'Tapestry'. But at > > > some point she went over the edge > > > and she just couldn't carry off the introspective poet thang like > > > Joni and James and a few others > > > could. 'Been to Canaan' is still a very nice song, though, and > > > was one of my favorites. It still > > > sounds good. > > > > I definitely agree with Mark. I was a huge fan of Carole King through my > > early teens - starting with Tapestry, which my brother gave me for Xmas > when > > I was about 11. He said, "You may not like it now, but you will one day." > > He was right - I didn't like it at first (I was still listening to Abba > and > > The BeeGees at the time), but it grew on me quickly. > > > > After falling in love with Tapestry, Rhymes and Reasons was the first > "real" > > album I bought myself, as opposed to compilations. As an aside, NZ must > be > > the land of compilations. We were responsible for "The World of Joni > > Mitchell - which I believe was the only Joni compilation available until > > Hits and Misses. There was a very popular series called "Solid Gold" > > (although I don't know if these were unique to NZ) and it was always a big > > deal to have the latest edition, eg. Solid Gold Volume 12, etc. > > > > I absolutely loved Carole King, and bought all of her albums, even Now > That > > Everything's Been Said, her very first album with Danny Korthmar and > Charles > > Larkey - predating Tapestry and Writer. But as I grew older, I found her > > lyrics increasingly "trite" and after discovering Joni at 16, I became > > somewhat disillusioned with Carole's work. > > > > She never seemed to lose that "pop song" thing that worked so well when > she > > was writing at the Brill Building - which is not a bad thing, but > lyrically > > (IMO) she was at her best with Tapestry. > > > > Having said that, there are still some real gems to be found, and I'll > > include some of my favourites (and the album), some of which are the less > > well-known of her songs: > > > > No Easy Way Down - Writer > > It's Going To Take Some Time - Music > > Sweet Seasons - Music > > Been To Caanan - Rhymes And Reasons > > Jazzman - Wrap Around Joy > > Wrap Around Joy - Wrap Around Joy > > Welcome Home - Welcome Home > > You Still Want Her - Touch The Sky > > Crazy - Touch The Sky (This song has one of my all-time favourite lyrics: > > "You see security in the chrome American dream, but I don't believe in > > livin' in the middle > > with available extremes") > > > > I'd be interested to see anyone else's favourite Carole King songs - other > > than those found on Tapestry. > > > > > > Hell > > _________________________________________ > > "To have great poets, there must be great > > audiences too" - Walt Whitman > > > > Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2005 #68 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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