From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #511 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, December 30 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 511 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: going to watery places, jc ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Tsunami, njc ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: going to watery places, jc [Em ] Re: NJC, Schones Geburtstag an Wally K/ now drugs vs shrink ["Ruth Davis"] Re: NJC, Schones Geburtstag an Wally K/ now drugs vs shrink [Em ] RE: tsunami / environment NJC ["Maggie McNally" ] Re: NJC, Schones Geburtstag an Wally K/ now drugs vs shrink ["Ruth Davis"] earthquake, njc ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Handmede Chistmas compilation, njc ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Joni Limericks [LCStanley7@aol.com] The science behind a tsunami NJC ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: The science behind a tsunami NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] RE: tsunami / environment NJC [FredNow@aol.com] authors of Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen njc [FredNow@aol.com] RE: tsunami warning system, etc. njc ["hell" ] RE: The science behind a tsunami NJC ["hell" ] Re: Tsunami/Watery Places/Blue /Digest 371 [steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrie] NJC, Andrews Sisters, Eight to the Bar, Shaboo Inn ["Patti Parlette" ] Re: The science behind a tsunami NJC [Em ] Update [Michael Paz ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:05:18 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: going to watery places, jc My answer for this hour: She's been on a voyage, like a sailor. She has some souvenirs: perhaps a memory, a lesson, a paradox, a tattoo or a weathered face (with some lines the voyage put there and some it erased). All hail Joni, Lama Joni said, > >>"I've been to sea before">> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:04:18 -0500 From: Gary Zack Subject: New Address (NJC) I finally have almost everything moved into my new place, and have just hooked up with a new internet provider with a new e-mail which is nyro_in_detroit@comcast.net. If anyone needs to contact me, please use this new addy. If you haven't received a reply from me to an e-mail you might have sent, please send again. Wishing you all a joyous and peaceful New Year! Best regards, Gary Zack np: Medley: River/Willy - Joni, Worcester Polytechnic 1969 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:09:30 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Tsunami, njc Indeed. I think this is the biggest loss of life caused by a single event (one earthquake) in my lifetime. For all of my navel gazing over 9/11, this is much more grave. All the best, Lama >From: Suzanne MarcAurele >I am surprised and not that little is stated here on this incredible disaster - yet all were in that disaster so to speak - all seems trivial compared to this in the latest of "biblical" disasters.> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:10:12 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: going to watery places, jc in his post Lama wrote: > She has one peer > but there "ain't no one" better. But you knew this. You just like > to > take the words apart and marvel at them, right? Just every once in a while maybe I get a lack of oxygen to the brain or something and a song or just a phrase from a song will seem hugely cosmically important - it rolls out like an endless double helix into infinity, then I feel the need to run to those who might understand..like you guys on here, and say "did you see THAT?". And then the next day the words will seem off the cuff and tossed arbitrarily into the wind... so go figure. :) Em < Subject: Re: NJC, Schones Geburtstag an Wally K/ now drugs vs shrink Well, some of us still like *natural* drugs, that have not passed through the paws of the pharmaceutical industry, and still contain a bit of the old rastaman vibration! Ruth - -- Em wrote: - --- Ruth Davis wrote: > Did you know Bush has a plan to > have the entire population of the U.S. screened for mental problems, > and have drugs prescribed accordingly? He wants to start with the > little kiddies and then work up through the rest of the population. ...snip... maybe we will see a day when the counter-culture people are the ones who refuse to do drugs - rather than, as in the 60's the ones who *do* drugs. Hey man I'm gonna be straight! Turn OFF, tune in, drop out. I need to re-read Cuckoo's Nest. :) Em << I would love to have a shrink...I'm thinkin' Melfi. Be my Melfi! gawd I lurv Melfi.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:25:13 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: NJC, Schones Geburtstag an Wally K/ now drugs vs shrink "Da 'erbal remedy"? :) Em - --- Ruth Davis wrote: > > Well, some of us still like *natural* drugs, that have not passed > through the paws of the pharmaceutical industry, and still contain a > bit of the old rastaman vibration! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:33:37 -0500 From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Tsunami, njc Jim wrote: << For all of my navel gazing over 9/11, this is much more grave. >> I think it's apples and oranges, Jim, although it's difficult for anyone who lived though 9/11 not to make comparisons because in both cases thousands of lives were abruptly ended. The big difference for me is that 9/11 involved several acts of terror, whereas 12/26 was a single act of nature. Another major difference is that the death toll for 9/11 kept going down as the days went by, but this death toll just keeps climbing, and now we hear that disease and other factors may make the final toll increase twofold. Like others here, I am profoundly embarrassed by Bush's lack of any kind of humane words or gestures -- until the critics spoke, of course. - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:49:28 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: tsunami NJC Hi Maggie, Environmental misuse? I think these are good questions to ask. >Could drilling for oil and natural gas and the subsequent removal of these >components of the >substructure be a contributing factor? There are consequences to most (if not all) things. Marianne we've got to care about every bit of this eco system Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:04:36 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: I just wonder, does the actions of the industrialized world bear any responsibility for this destruction? I can't help but think that mother nature is taking some seriously harsh retribution for our misuse of our planet. Am I being an overly-guilty liberal here, or is there any evidence that the hurricanes in Florida and the earthquake at the bottom of the Indian Ocean is related to environmental misuse? I went looking for an explanation of the tsunami/earthquake phenomenon, and here is the simple explanation. "The earth's crust consists of slowly-moving tectonic plates, and two of these plates collided deep under the Indian Ocean about 155 miles southeast of the Indonesian island of Sumatra, with the Indian plate diving under the Eurasian plate. The collision suddenly lifted a strip of seafloor hundreds of miles long, by an estimated 20 to 50 feet, which displaced a massive amount of water and started the tsunami. The earthquake registered 9.0 on the Richter scale, making it the most powerful in 40 years and fourth strongest in the last 100 years." Source: The Boston Globe But, what causes these movements? Could drilling for oil and natural gas and the subsequent removal of these components of the substructure be a contributing factor? Or, is it a simple matter of s*&t happens? These questions came from my thinking about the magnitude of the loss and destruction vs. the losses due to terrorism, and my feeling that the current administration has its priorities messed up in putting such a large share of our resources into fighting terrorism and so little into protecting the environment. Hell, I think it's safe to say that they are completely without concern for our environment, unless you count what they can take from it in the name of making money. Maybe this is all just me trying to make some sense out of it all, but if anyone has thoughts on it, I'd be open to hearing other views. Maggie _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:54:32 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: tsunami / environment NJC Fred, I am of course aware that movement of the plates is a part of the natural order of things. What I wonder about is whether the process is speeded up by our wanton acts of destruction. Other changes are natural but have been speeded up or exacerbated in some way - for example the destruction of the ozone layer due to our misses (misunderstanding of the delicate balance, misuses). I can't help but feel that there could be connections to the action of taking and taking from below the surface. Do you see what I mean? Could be utter nonsense, an extension of the paranoia I felt the day after the election when I felt that voter fraud had contributed to the outcome...I'm getting paranoid and suspicious in my old age, what can I say? But still, I wonder... I do agree that some of our urges to be seaside have contributed to the magnitude of this destruction, as well. And I think Anne has a good point in looking to the lack of warning systems in place. And with all of our community who are once again let down by the lack of leadership coming from our so-called leaders. Then we have leaders like our own Michael Paz who give me hope for our world. Mikey, the check is in the mail. Maggie - -----Original Message----- From: FredNow@aol.com [mailto:FredNow@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 3:49 AM To: joni@smoe.org Cc: Maggie McNally Subject: Re: tsunami / environment NJC Hi Maggie, Although I certainly share your feelings about the current US administration and its pillaging of the environment (among many other crimes), abuse of the ecology has nothing to do with earthquakes, which are the Earth's primary mechanism for growth and geological evolution. The movement of the Earth's crust, which is divided into large tectonic plates beneath major oceans and continents, is responsible for continental drift. Very early in Earth's history all the continents were clumped together in one land mass called Pangaea. Over the course of billions of years, as the crustal plates beneath the land mass and the surrounding oceans shifted and broke apart, so, too, the continents broke apart and drifted on the semi-molten mantle beneath the crust. You've probably noticed that the eastern "hump" of South America could fit nicely into the western "hollow" of Africa ... this gets really interesting when one can trace animal and/or plant life that exists only in these two places which were once joined. Anyway, earthquakes have always happened, and always will happen. Unbelievably, there have been several earthquakes which have killed 200,000 people or more, including one on July 27, 1976 in Tangshan, China which "officially" killed 255,000 people, but the estimated death toll was 655,000. Even more staggering, on January 23, 1556 there was an earthquake in Shansi, China which killed 830,000 people. And, obviously, in 1556 there was no chance that this had anything to do with industrialization. More than a few of the most massive earthquakes in history have occurred in China and Iran, the latter of which just had a major quake almost exactly one year ago in which 30,000+ people were killed. That said, many of the deaths caused by this tsunami were perhaps the result of human over-development of coastal areas ... we are fatally attracted to water. In that sense, abuse of the environment may have had a hand in this tragedy. Fred "Maggie McNally" wrote: >>I just wonder, does the actions of the industrialized world bear any >>responsibility for this destruction? I can't help but think that mother >>nature is taking some seriously harsh retribution for our misuse of our >>planet. Am I being an overly-guilty liberal here, or is there any evidence >>that the hurricanes in Florida and the earthquake at the bottom of the Indian >>Ocean is related to environmental misuse? I went looking for an explanation >>of the tsunami/earthquake phenomenon, and here is the simple explanation. >> >>"The earth's crust consists of slowly-moving tectonic plates, and two of >>these plates collided deep under the Indian Ocean about 155 miles southeast >>of the Indonesian island of Sumatra, with the Indian plate diving under the >>Eurasian plate. The collision suddenly lifted a strip of seafloor hundreds of >>miles long, by an estimated 20 to 50 feet, which displaced a massive amount >>of water and started the tsunami. The earthquake registered 9.0 on the >>Richter scale, making it the most powerful in 40 years and fourth strongest >>in the last 100 years." Source: The Boston Globe But, what causes these >>movements? Could drilling for oil and natural gas and the subsequent removal >>of these components of the substructure be a contributing factor? Or, is it a >>simple matter of s*&t happens? These questions came from my thinking about >>the magnitude of the loss and destruction vs. the losses due to terrorism, >>and my feeling that the current administration has its priorities messed up >>in putting such a large share of our resources into fighting terrorism and so >>little into protecting the environment. Hell, I think it's safe to say that >>they are completely without concern for our environment, unless you count >>what they can take from it in the name of making money. Maybe this is all >>just me trying to make some sense out of it all, but if anyone has thoughts >>on it, I'd be open to hearing other views. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:56:22 GMT From: "Ruth Davis" Subject: Re: NJC, Schones Geburtstag an Wally K/ now drugs vs shrink Jah, mon! - -- Em wrote: "Da 'erbal remedy"? :) Em - --- Ruth Davis wrote: > > Well, some of us still like *natural* drugs, that have not passed > through the paws of the pharmaceutical industry, and still contain a > bit of the old rastaman vibration! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:00:51 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: earthquake, njc Catherine said: "I do believe that we need to treat the Earth with more respect. I read that the earthquake affected the earth's orbit. That is pretty f*ckin' scary. We can't go bombing the crap out of other countries, testing bombs in scarcely inhabited areas of the world, dumping garbage into the oceans and rivers, stripping forests of their trees, mining the earth for its ore and not expect to pay the price for it. We're all part of a large ecosystem but all too often we behave like parasites." me: Very Very well said. . . There is so much bombing, testing and sonar type stuff done in the oceans. . it is like a "mine field." _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:03:00 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Handmede Chistmas compilation, njc This list could have been written by any of us but Emmylou Harris drew it: "If it were legal and if Emmylou made Christmas compilation CD's to give to friends, this would be her Christmas 2004 CD. 1. Agnus Dei - Rufus Wainwright 2. In My Blakean Year - Patti Smith 3. One Day I Walk - k.d. lang 4. Monkey to Man - Elvis Costello 5. Pocahontas - Neil Young 6. Letters From My Father - Ginny Hawker 7. Space Kay - Daniel Lanois 8. Song For Sonny Liston - Mark Knopfler 9. Well Well Well - Ben Harper w/The Five Blind Boys of Alabama 10. Last Date - Skeeter Davis 11. You Don't Know Me - Ray Charles 12. Standing - Patty Griffin 13. Boogie - R. L. Burnside 14. One Little Song = Gillian Welch 15. God On Our Side - Buddy Miller 16. All The Fine Young Men - DeDannon with Delores Keane 17. Eulogy for Robert Kennedy 18. Imagine - John Lennon 19. La Vie En Rose - Louis Armstrong" www.emmylou.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:23:37 -0500 From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: parasites njc Catherine McKay wrote: >>I do believe that we need to treat the Earth with more respect. I read that >>the earthquake affected the earth's orbit. That is pretty f*ckin' scary. We >>can't go bombing the crap out of other countries, testing bombs in scarcely >>inhabited areas of the world, dumping garbage into the oceans and rivers, >>stripping forests of their trees, mining the earth for its ore and not expect >>to pay the price for it. We're all part of a large ecosystem but all too >>often we behave like parasites. As I mentioned in my reply to Maggie, our abuse of the ecosystem is not what causes earthquakes, but I agree that we behave like parasites. In fact, I've long felt that humans are a mutation of nature, a virus or cancer of the ecosystem, in that we represent a potential threat to the system as a whole, something no other single component of the ecosystem can do. Susan Guzzi wrote that she fears "our damage to the earth is irreversible" ... the good news is that ultimately the Earth will heal itself, even if it takes hundreds of thousands or even millions of years, long after humans wipe themselves out. We have overly large and sometimes magnificent brains, which we've used for extraordinary good and extraordinary bad. We share all but a few per cent of our DNA with chimpanzees, but where is the chimpanzee Symphony Number 9? Or the chimpanzee Leaves of Grass? The chimpanzee airplane? Where's the chimpanzee hydrogen bomb? (Yes, I know there's a chimp in the White House ... I rest my case.) Let's face it, humans are literally freaks of nature, for better and for worse. Fred ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:28:32 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: Did animals sense Tsunami, njc From Common Dreams News: Did Animals Sense Tsunami? "Rescuers look for survivors at Yala Reserve Wildlife Park, 200 kilometers (125 miles) southeast of Colombo, Sri Lanka, Wednesday, Dec. 29, 2004. Wild life officials expressed surprise Wednesday that they found no evidence of large-scale animal deaths from the weekend's massive tsunami, indicating that animals may have sensed the wave coming and fled to higher ground. (AP Photo/Gemunu Amarasinghe) COLOMBO, SRI LANKA -- Wildlife officials in Sri Lanka expressed surprise Wednesday that they found no evidence of large-scale animal deaths from the tsunamis, indicating that animals may have sensed the wave coming and fled to higher ground. An Associated Press photographer who flew over Sri Lanka's Yala National Park in an air force helicopter saw abundant wildlife, including elephants, buffalo, deer, and not a single animal corpse. Floodwaters from Sunday's tsunami swept into the park, uprooting trees and toppling cars onto their roofs -- one red car even ended up on top of a huge tree -- but the animals apparently were not harmed and may have sought out high ground, said Gehan de Silva Wijeyeratne, whose Jetwing Eco Holidays ran a hotel in the park. "This is very interesting. I am finding bodies of humans, but I have yet to see a dead animal," said Wijeyeratne, whose hotel in the park was destroyed. "Maybe what we think is true, that animals have a sixth sense," Wijeyeratne said. Yala, Sri Lanka's largest wildlife reserve, is home to 200 Asian Elephants, crocodile, wild boar, water buffalo and gray langur monkeys. The park also has Asia's highest concentration of leopards. The Yala reserve covers 391 square miles, but only 56 square miles are open to tourists. The human death toll in Sri Lanka surpassed 21,000. Forty foreigners were among 200 people in Yala who were killed." ) Copyright 2004 Associated Press now me: animals have senae beyond anything I think we will ever be able to imagine or conceive of. They should never be under estimated. . . and may they be always considered. XOXO Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:37:49 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Joni Limericks There once was a song queen named Joni, Who wasn't an ounce of a phoney, She sang it like it was, And ocassionaly would cuss, Her lyrics contained no baloney. There once was a Canadian singer, Who put "the man" through the ringer, For studying war, And being such a bore, Her genius continues to linger. There once was a lawn that hissed, And a beautiful woman who kissed, In France on mainstreet, Her love so complete, A Tequilla anaconda she pissed. There once was a lady so blue, After telling Graham they were through, Soon she took to the sky, Told Europe good bye, California I'm coming home to you. There once were miles of aisles, Where fans sat and wore big smiles, As Joni Mitchell would sing, Quite an ephemeral thing, Her retirement some of us riles. There once a cut out set, That the author could not forget, For the masters she fought, Now the set can be bought, Her fans no longer must fret. There once was a circle game, That brought around a great name, An unending glory, For the queen of the story, With each turn an increase in her fame. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:41:58 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: The science behind a tsunami NJC I'm not a professional scientist but I've been reading this week. Sadly, I learned this week that ocean water is a nearly perfect "non compressible medium", like brake fluid. When you put your foot on the brake, fluid transmits that force to the brakes (a short distance away) without almost no loss of force along the way. Ocean water did the same thing. Even over hundreds of kilometers, there is almost no loss of force along the way, resulting in huge waves very far away from the source. I've been thinking about "the next one". I'll wonder how soon after the quake geologists saw it? Clearly they wouldn't see the shock until it reached a sensor. If a sensor was closer to the epicenter than the closest shoreline, they would have seen a tsunami in the making. On the other hand, if all of the geological sensors were in-land, they wouldn't have seen the shock wave until... well until the damage had been done. I'll bet that almost all of the known fault lines are "wired" by now. If they can see an earthquake exactly when it happens next time, maybe geologists could turn on some civil defense sirens and clear those beaches in time. (It took many minutes for those shock waves, the tsunami, to reach shore.) The answer is always more technology, right? heh heh As far as I know, there's no evidence that people's activities have ever affected an earthquake, volcano, or tsunami. For example, Japan is in the earthquake-rich Pacific Rim, but no earthquakes started when the US leveled Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Like sunspots, the seasons, & ice ages, earthquakes have their own cycles. Thanks for letting me prattle on. All the best, Lama programmer and amateur mechanic ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:58:06 -0500 From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: tsunami warning system, etc. njc "Anne Sandstrom" wrote: >>We ARE guilty, however, of not >>valuing all human life, hence the lack of warning system in the Indian Ocean >>area. (If no one had such warning system, fine, but that's not the case...) Obviously, had a warning system been in place (as there is in the Pacific Rim countries) many lives would have been spared. But from what I understand, the reason there isn't one is primarily because tsunami are very rare in the Indian Ocean, while quite common in the Pacific Ocean. >>As for this administration, how cold can you be? Let's see... the tsunami hit >>on Sunday, the prez didn't speak publicly until Wednesday. Yeah, that's >>someone who's deeply concerned. It blew my mind that the first figure floated as the US relief contribution was a measly $15 million! $200 BILLION for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but only $15 million for tsunami relief! I guess this has been increased to a whopping $35 million because of public outcry over the paltry first offer, but still a drop in the bucket. Two things to consider in this: 1) The difference between a million and a billion: a million seconds is 11 days, a billion seconds is 32 years. 2) The USA, my country, likes to think of itself as supremely generous when it comes to foreign aid, when, in fact, although the total dollar amount of our contribution may be the highest, expressed as a percentage of our GNP it's the *lowest* of any industrialized nation in the world. I'm not at all a subscriber to organized religion (being a devout musician, myself), but I do think some of the most basic tenets common to most religions are right on, including this parable in the first four lines of Luke 21: /1/ When [Jesus] looked up he saw some wealthy people putting their offerings into the treasury /2/ and he noticed a poor widow putting in two small coins. /3/ He said, "I tell you truly, this poor widow put in more than all the rest; /4/ for those others have all made offerings from their surplus wealth, but she, from her poverty, has offered her whole livelihood." Think about that parable, and the GNP percentage statistic, next time someone claims that the USA is the most generous nation on Earth. Faith based, my ass. Fred ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:03:16 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: written in the key of navyblue Susan Guzzi wrote: And lastly Mags wrote: Crown and anchor me obvious naval associations, continuing in the key of navyblue, and, what clever writing this is Now here I see Joni speaking of the dichotomy within herself - She would love to be someones Queen - (wife, bride lover) but she also fears being anchored (not free, owned, held down) so so instead she chooses to just sail away- leave hit - the highway." Now me: In looking at these four words I have long sensed that dichotomy as well, Susan. There are lots of examples of her ambivalence, but certainly soon thereafter the feelings were expressed beautifully in Let the Wind Carry Me when she speaks of settling down and then it passes and she's blowing in the wind, so to speak. Sometimes I get that feeling And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody I get that strong longing And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody But it passes like the summer I'm a wild seed again Let the wind carry me She wants to love and be loved and raise that precious child, but then she's got to move on. I loved your opening remarks, Mags, about the power of the single opening word, "Blue." I have always loved it, yet had never articulated its power for me. And since I am right now listening to Bobby Vinton sing the Bacharach song "Blue on Blue," I couldn't have a better reminder of what a brilliant singer Joni is. Maggie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:06:28 -0500 From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: parasites njc Fred asks: << where is the chimpanzee Symphony Number 9? >> Last Train to Clarksville? - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:10:20 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Tsunami (NJC) Suzanne wrote: > I am surprised and not that little is stated here on this incredible > disaster - yet all were in that disaster so to speak - all seems trivial > compared to this in the latest of "biblical" disasters Hey, I was just following the lead of that most presidential of presidents, George "Vacation" Bush. Took him 3 days to say one word on behalf of the United States, the wealthiest country on earth. Besides, weren't so many of us busy returning gifts to Wal-Mart? It's been estimated that it would take $20 million per year for 10 years to put in place the technology (which has already been developed) to predict earthquakes and tsunamis worldwide. Bush is all for "everyone" contributing. $20 million a year ... a drop in the U.S. economy's bucket ... WHY CAN'T WE JUST PAY FOR IT?? How hard would that be?? Instead, we choose to "Kill a Commie -- or a Muslim -- for Christ." Lori, who has already contributed a bit of money to the relief effort, and who plans to contribute more ... and more ... but who is asking myself why I can't leave to go and give HANDS ON assistance ... haven't found a good answer for that question yet ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:11:04 -0500 From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: The science behind a tsunami NJC I have seen no news reports that explained why no one ran for the hills when they saw all the water disappear before the tsunami hit. Even I knew about that! (From reading Michener's "Hawaii" years ago.) Has anyone else heard anything about lask of response to this sort-of built-in tsunami warning system? - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:24:08 -0500 From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: RE: tsunami / environment NJC I absolutely agree that humankind has had a deleterious impact on the ecosystem, and if global warming continues unchecked there could be disastrous consequences, sudden climactic change, etc. My point, however, was that earthquakes are not one of those consequences. Fred In an email dated Thu, 30 12 2004 6:54:32 pm GMT, "Maggie McNally" writes: >Fred, I am of course aware that movement of the plates is a part of the natural order of things. What I wonder about is whether the process is speeded up by our wanton acts of destruction. Other changes are natural but have been speeded up or exacerbated in some way - for example the destruction of the ozone layer due to our misses (misunderstanding of the delicate balance, misuses). I can't help but feel that there could be connections to the action of taking and taking from below the surface. Do you see what I mean? Could be utter nonsense, an extension of the paranoia I felt the day after the election when I felt that voter fraud had contributed to the outcome...I'm getting paranoid and suspicious in my old age, what can I say? But still, I wonder... > >I do agree that some of our urges to be seaside have contributed to the magnitude of this destruction, as well. And I think Anne has a good point in looking to the lack of warning systems in place. And with all of our community who are once again let down by the lack of leadership coming from our so-called leaders. > >Then we have leaders like our own Michael Paz who give me hope for our world. Mikey, the check is in the mail. > >Maggie > >-----Original Message----- >From: FredNow@aol.com [mailto:FredNow@aol.com] >Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 3:49 AM >To: joni@smoe.org >Cc: Maggie McNally >Subject: Re: tsunami / environment NJC > > >Hi Maggie, > >Although I certainly share your feelings about the current US administration and its pillaging of the environment (among many other crimes), abuse of the ecology has nothing to do with earthquakes, which are the Earth's primary mechanism for growth and geological evolution. > >The movement of the Earth's crust, which is divided into large tectonic plates beneath major oceans and continents, is responsible for continental drift. Very early in Earth's history all the continents were clumped together in one land mass called Pangaea. Over the course of billions of years, as the crustal plates beneath the land mass and the surrounding oceans shifted and broke apart, so, too, the continents broke apart and drifted on the semi-molten mantle beneath the crust. You've probably noticed that the eastern "hump" of South America could fit nicely into the western "hollow" of Africa ... this gets really interesting when one can trace animal and/or plant life that exists only in these two places which were once joined. > >Anyway, earthquakes have always happened, and always will happen. Unbelievably, there have been several earthquakes which have killed 200,000 people or more, including one on July 27, 1976 in Tangshan, China which "officially" killed 255,000 people, but the estimated death toll was 655,000. Even more staggering, on January 23, 1556 there was an earthquake in Shansi, China which killed 830,000 people. And, obviously, in 1556 there was no chance that this had anything to do with industrialization. More than a few of the most massive earthquakes in history have occurred in China and Iran, the latter of which just had a major quake almost exactly one year ago in which 30,000+ people were killed. > >That said, many of the deaths caused by this tsunami were perhaps the result of human over-development of coastal areas ... we are fatally attracted to water. In that sense, abuse of the environment may have had a hand in this tragedy. > >Fred > > > >"Maggie McNally" wrote: > >>>I just wonder, does the actions of the industrialized world bear any >>>responsibility for this destruction? I can't help but think that mother >>>nature is taking some seriously harsh retribution for our misuse of our >>>planet. Am I being an overly-guilty liberal here, or is there any evidence >>>that the hurricanes in Florida and the earthquake at the bottom of the Indian >>>Ocean is related to environmental misuse? I went looking for an explanation >>>of the tsunami/earthquake phenomenon, and here is the simple explanation. >>> >>>"The earth's crust consists of slowly-moving tectonic plates, and two of >>>these plates collided deep under the Indian Ocean about 155 miles southeast >>>of the Indonesian island of Sumatra, with the Indian plate diving under the >>>Eurasian plate. The collision suddenly lifted a strip of seafloor hundreds of >>>miles long, by an estimated 20 to 50 feet, which displaced a massive amount >>>of water and started the tsunami. The earthquake registered 9.0 on the >>>Richter scale, making it the most powerful in 40 years and fourth strongest >>>in the last 100 years." Source: The Boston Globe But, what causes these >>>movements? Could drilling for oil and natural gas and the subsequent removal >>>of these components of the substructure be a contributing factor? Or, is it a >>>simple matter of s*&t happens? These questions came from my thinking about >>>the magnitude of the loss and destruction vs. the losses due to terrorism, >>>and my feeling that the current administration has its priorities messed up >>>in putting such a large share of our resources into fighting terrorism and so >>>little into protecting the environment. Hell, I think it's safe to say that >>>they are completely without concern for our environment, unless you count >>>what they can take from it in the name of making money. Maybe this is all >>>just me trying to make some sense out of it all, but if anyone has thoughts >>>on it, I'd be open to hearing other views. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:31:06 -0500 From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: authors of Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen njc "Patti Parlette" wrote: >>"Bei Mir Bist Du Schvn, please let me explain, Bei Mir Bist Du Schvn means >>that you're grand. Bei Mir Bist Du Schvn, again I'll explain, It means that >>you're the fairest in the land. I could say 'Bella, bella,' even say >>'Wunderbar.' Each language only helps me tell you how grand you are." >> >>(author unknown, sung by the Andrews Sisters) Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen was originally written in Yiddish by Jacob Jacobs (lyrics) and Sholem Secunda (music), for the Yiddish musical "I Would If I Could" in 1933. English lyrics written for the Andrews Sisters by Sammy Cahn for their 1937 recording. Fred Keep As New Delete Print Preview Previous Email 3 of 47 Next Email Include original text in reply. Reply Forward Reply All Add Address Help ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:53:25 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: RE: tsunami warning system, etc. njc Fred wrote: > Obviously, had a warning system been in place (as there is in the > Pacific Rim countries) many lives would have been spared. But > from what I understand, the reason there isn't one is primarily > because tsunami are very rare in the Indian Ocean, while quite > common in the Pacific Ocean. I've lived in an earthquake-prone country my whole life - New Zealand exists solely due to the movement of tectonic plates, and we're sitting on the "join" of two of them (on the Pacific rim). I've also experienced more than a few over the years, but I've never heard of a truly effective warning system. Most current systems only give a few seconds warning - which may be enough to take the appropriate action, ie. get to a "safe" location, but wouldn't prevent mass destruction by any means, or significant loss of life. See this link from Scientific American for more info. on warning systems (although the article is 7 months old - I'm not sure what advances have been made since then, but I doubt anything significant): http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000979AF-9092-1EB2-BDC0809EC588EE DF As Fred says, one of the major problems with the disaster in Asia is that this is an area not known to have any significant seismic activity. This also means the population are not educated in the methods to avoid harm, and building codes certainly wouldn't enforce that buildings be structurally resistant to earthquakes. Similarly the population would not have been educated in how to identify and evade a tsunami. Many of the areas worst hit are villages with single-story housing etc. and couldn't withstand the impact of a sixty-foot wave of water - and we're not talking about one "wave", but a significantly larger body of water. In one area, a police launch was carried one kilometre inland - one kilometre! I don't know anyone who could run 1km in the time available to avoid this wall of water, so I doubt a warning system would have made much of a difference. There are areas shown where all that's left of large towns are the concrete foundations of a few buildings. "Everything" was razed to the ground - and there's absolutely nothing anyone could have done to prevent it. Water levels (due to the tsunami) were increased both here in NZ, and in Chile - thousands of miles across the Pacific. That gives you some idea of just how huge this thing was. And while these are "beach" communities, not everyone would have been in view of the water at the time. I heard of one tourist who was in bed asleep in a beach hut when the tsunami hit, but by great fortune, was carried back towards the main resort, and managed to clamber onto a balcony. It's just another reminder (albeit a horrifying and incredibly sad one) that we're totally at the mercy of nature, despite our overwhelming desire to "tame" this planet. As far as I'm concerned, we're just another (very territorial) animal running around on the surface of a big hot piece of molten rock. All the wars over the centuries, arguing about who owns what piece of it, seem pretty redundant in the big scheme of things! Hell _________________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:04:01 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: RE: The science behind a tsunami NJC Smurf wrote: > I have seen no news reports that explained why no one ran for the > hills when they saw all the water disappear before the tsunami > hit. Even I knew about that! (From reading Michener's "Hawaii" > years ago.) Has anyone else heard anything about lask of response > to this sort-of built-in tsunami warning system? I think the "hills" were just too damn far away. Many people did run, but few could "out-run" it. Those few that did survive in areas close to the water, did so by clambering into trees, or getting to a roof or a balcony. Hell _________________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:09 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder) Subject: Re: Tsunami/Watery Places/Blue /Digest 371 The Joni Only list can leave you in some weird places sometimes. A Joni Only digest of tsunami, Blue and watery places. As always, Paz, you do something practical. Well done,mate. Our friend Julie's daughter and son are on holiday in the Maldives but she's heard from them and they're okay. Thoughts to all those who have lost so much and are struggling with this terrible disaster Anita xx I can only think of the lines from Blue "There's so many sinking now You gotta keep thinking We can make it through these waves." Wish more had. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:28:24 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: NJC, Andrews Sisters, Eight to the Bar, Shaboo Inn I just love the Andrews Sisters! The band that played at my 1977 wedding, "Eight to the Bar", played a lot of their songs and all age groups loved them and danced like crazy fools. I remember some old guy in plaid pants sliding across the dance floor on his butt. "Seafood, Mama" (shrimps and rice are very nice!), "Nagasaki", "Beat Me Daddy Eight to the Bar", "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy", etc. And Kate B., did you know that Jeff Pevar used to play with ETTB? Yep! Oh, and yes, for some real Joni content here, they even played "Raised on Robbery!" YES!!! I had almost forgotten that! That band is still going strong in CT (celebrating their 30th anniv. soon) and they are great. It used to be three sisters -- Cynthia, Todd and Barbara Lyon with other musicians. The sisters sang great scat together, but now only Cynthia remains. When they finally got a gig at the Shaboo Inn in 1978(a great music place in Willimantic CT that has since burned down) they were really excited, and my roomates and I had the whole band over for lasagna dinner before the show. We were totally enthralled watching them get ready in their 40s clothes and make-up and stuff. Ah, such good memories! Then when I was pregnant my friends used to joke that my baby would be born singing "Beat Me Daddy Eight to the Bar".......of course Chris did not come out singing, but he DID weigh in at 8 lbs even! The band used to dedicate songs to him after he was born ("Sweet Inspiration" and "Bottle Baby Boogie", among others). Later, I would sing "Nagasaki" to Chris to get him to eat his strained bananas and oatmeal. So, the Andrews Sisters lead me to ETTB which leads me back to the Shaboo Inn. What a great place...a dusty old mill building that hosted the likes of Johnny Winter, David Bromberg, Papa John Creach (Creech?), Orleans, Arlo Guthrie, and Bonnie Raitt (she came off the stage and shared a peace pipe with me and my friends! Honest! We kept it for years!), and you know there may be more..... Thanks for letting me reminisce here, mes ami(e)s! Love, Patti for Patty Andrews ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:36:07 -0500 From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: RE: tsunami warning system, etc. njc Hell, Just to clarify, I was referring to a tsunami warning system, not earthquake warning which is still a very imperfect science. Tens of thousands of people could have been spared in those countries hundreds of miles away if there had been a tsunami warning system in place which would have given them sufficient time (up to several hours) to evacuate. Fred In an email dated Thu, 30 12 2004 8:53:25 pm GMT, "hell" writes: >Fred wrote: > >> Obviously, had a warning system been in place (as there is in the >> Pacific Rim countries) many lives would have been spared. But >> from what I understand, the reason there isn't one is primarily >> because tsunami are very rare in the Indian Ocean, while quite >> common in the Pacific Ocean. > >I've lived in an earthquake-prone country my whole life - New Zealand exists >solely due to the movement of tectonic plates, and we're sitting on the >"join" of two of them (on the Pacific rim). I've also experienced more than >a few over the years, but I've never heard of a truly effective warning >system. Most current systems only give a few seconds warning - which may be >enough to take the appropriate action, ie. get to a "safe" location, but >wouldn't prevent mass destruction by any means, or significant loss of life. >See this link from Scientific American for more info. on warning systems >(although the article is 7 months old - I'm not sure what advances have been >made since then, but I doubt anything significant): > >http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000979AF-9092-1EB2-BDC0809EC588EE >DF > >As Fred says, one of the major problems with the disaster in Asia is that >this is an area not known to have any significant seismic activity. This >also means the population are not educated in the methods to avoid harm, and >building codes certainly wouldn't enforce that buildings be structurally >resistant to earthquakes. Similarly the population would not have been >educated in how to identify and evade a tsunami. Many of the areas worst >hit are villages with single-story housing etc. and couldn't withstand the >impact of a sixty-foot wave of water - and we're not talking about one >"wave", but a significantly larger body of water. In one area, a police >launch was carried one kilometre inland - one kilometre! I don't know >anyone who could run 1km in the time available to avoid this wall of water, >so I doubt a warning system would have made much of a difference. There are >areas shown where all that's left of large towns are the concrete >foundations of a few buildings. "Everything" was razed to the ground - and >there's absolutely nothing anyone could have done to prevent it. Water >levels (due to the tsunami) were increased both here in NZ, and in Chile - >thousands of miles across the Pacific. That gives you some idea of just how >huge this thing was. > >And while these are "beach" communities, not everyone would have been in >view of the water at the time. I heard of one tourist who was in bed asleep >in a beach hut when the tsunami hit, but by great fortune, was carried back >towards the main resort, and managed to clamber onto a balcony. > >It's just another reminder (albeit a horrifying and incredibly sad one) that >we're totally at the mercy of nature, despite our overwhelming desire to >"tame" this planet. As far as I'm concerned, we're just another (very >territorial) animal running around on the surface of a big hot piece of >molten rock. All the wars over the centuries, arguing about who owns what >piece of it, seem pretty redundant in the big scheme of things! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:43:23 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: the New Year I'm heading out and away from the computer until the 3rd. I send wishes to all of you for a fun and safe celebration, and I wish for us all peace and the gift of hope. If nothing else, let us live our lives mindful that each day is a gift. love, Maggie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:54:36 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: The science behind a tsunami NJC - --- Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: > I have seen no news reports that explained why no one ran for the > hills when they saw all the water disappear before the tsunami hit. from what I heard on tv, many people did the opposite, actually walked out into the area where water *was* normally - thinking it had something to do with the full moon and an odd tide. Lots of fish to be had, etc. In fact one video I saw showed people walking out where the water had been and then hauling ass back when they realized what was coming. Talk about "oops". This just doesn't happen often enough for people to learn from experience. sigh... Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:35:07 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Update Thanks to everyone for your kind words of encouragement and support. This task seems so incredible I sometimes feel like just curling up in a little ball and hiding under the bed. Today I had a lot of input from Gov. Blanco's office. They are encouraging many charities to just send money instead of trying to ship things themselves so obviously as I posted yesterday we have ALL learned from our past mistakes. They say there is donations piling up over there with no way to get them to the places they are most needed. I spent my day trying to gain liasons in country so we can partner with them for distribution and accountability. Senator Landrieu called me again and is working with the top General with the National Guard to see when some transport planes will be freed up from the war in Iraq and be able to assist with the efforts. The biggest challenge right now is to keep the living healthy and prevent further deaths. I pray for the strength and vision to make some small dent in this huge task. I heard the director of UNICEF on TV this afternoon as was very touched to hear her call for donations for all charities instead of demanding them for their agenda. That is very inspiring to me. I encourage you all to get envolved in your communties churches etc. And be smart with your efforts. There are a lot of resources online than can tell you the do's and don'ts. More later. Best Paz NP-South Side of the Sky-Yes Mesa, AZ 9/2004 ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #511 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)