From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #479 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, December 3 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 479 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: NJC Re: I am scared....Sadness.... [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Pot, Joni, Music, etc now njc [colin ] Re: The Last Time I Saw ... Paris? [Garret ] Re: Pot, Joni, Music, etc now njc [Em ] season of loss ["Anne Sandstrom" ] Joni and Pot ["Ruth Davis" ] Re: Joni and Pot [Em ] RE: Joni and Pot ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Pot, Joni, Music, etc now njc [colin ] Re: Pot, Joni, Music, etc now njc [Em ] Re: Support to Lance/NJC ["Donna Binkley" ] Guvmint Star Trek - NJC ["Ruth Davis" ] Re: Joni and Pot [Randy Remote ] Re: Pot, Joni, Music, etc now njc [colin ] Re: Guvmint Star Trek - NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: Pot, Joni, Music, etc now njc [Em ] tele vison NJC [mags h ] downtown dime store ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: Guvmint Star Trek - NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: downtown dime store [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Subject: Thank you !!!! [] JT on TV. njc [] Re: Subject: Thank you !!!! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Re: Subject: Thank you !!!! [] Re: things I think about before breakfast, njc [] any theologians in the house? (vaguely jc-no pun intended) [Neil Orts Subject: Re: Pot, Joni, Music, etc now njc Randy Remote wrote: >Russell Bowden wrote: > > > >>If there are people who are PHYSICALLY addicted to pot, I'd like to meet >>them. I won't argue that is is psychologically addictive. I would also >>like to know who has died AS A DIRECT RESULT OF POT USE. That said, why >>the hell are alcohol and tobacco so easy to get at almost anyplace? >>Physically highly addictive..... >> >> > >Yes, there is a difference between addictive behaivor and addictive >substances. Truly addictive substances (tobacco, alcohol, heroin, speed) >have physical withdrawl symptoms, whereas even a major weed >toker can quit cold with little discomfort. > > this is not true. many long tern pot smokers do get quite severe phycical eefects when the stop. Cramps, sweating, sickness, shakes, severe anxiety, stomach ulcers, confusion, headaches, lack of sleep. People can argue about this all they like but there are many people who have experienced this withdrawal and medical people who don't just believe the hype are aware of it. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:02:35 +0000 From: Garret Subject: Re: The Last Time I Saw ... Paris? I really like the idea that Joni may have drawn inspiration for Richard from paris. I love that song, as given to us by Eartha Kitt (oooh la la). Richard has a more intimate feel, but paris (at least the EK version) is fun in some way. That's certainly something to think about, i'm gonna listen to 'em both later. GARRET Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:51:46 EST From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: The Last Time I Saw ... Paris? plus Dorothy Fields I watched a PBS show about Broadway musicals last night because I know next to nothing about musicals and all the boys make fun of me because of it. Anyway, they featured this song called "The Last Time I. Saw Paris," which I have only vaguely heard of somewhere in the dim past, and I thought that if there are people here who haven't heard of the song, they might be interested in reading the lyrics. I wonder if Joni was making allusions to TLTISP with TLTISR ... She uses lots of the same words, such as 'dark' and 'cafe' and 'romantic'. No ice skaters in TLTISP, though. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 04:59:29 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: Pot, Joni, Music, etc now njc - --- colin wrote: > this is not true. many long tern pot smokers do get quite severe > phycical eefects when the stop. Cramps, sweating, sickness, shakes, > severe anxiety, stomach ulcers, confusion, headaches, lack of sleep. > People can argue about this all they like but there are many people > who > have experienced this withdrawal and medical people who don't just > believe the hype are aware of it. The symptoms you describe sound: a. much worse than what people I've known have experienced, and b. no worse than the side effect disclaimers for many of the drugs that are legal and in a sense are being "pushed" by TV ads, etc. I mean there's a pill now for supposedly whatever ails you. And they are expensive! One time I quit anti-depressants and the withdrawal symptoms were ridiculously horrible - sweats, shakes, extreme anxiety, eyes bugging out - yet that stuff is legal. The symptoms you describe sound more like what an opiate junky, or a crack user experiences coming off. I've known people who were extremely heavy pot smokers who didn't have those effects when they quit. I mean yeah - they were very grouchy and I'm sure it was unpleasant to them, but it wasn't "cold turkey" in the sense of the John Lennon song or in the sense of withdrawal symptoms as described by William Burroughs. I guess people are going to believe the "Reefer Madness" hype forever, and be fearful. So therefor marijuana remains illegal and fosters a whole lot more bad criminal stuff. Humans have been using substances since ancient times to alter their consciousness, but only the northern european white man's drug (alcohol) is "accepted" insofar as it is legal. The drugs of the "browner" races remain taboo. Hey I don't even smoke - but given a choice I'll throw my lot in with the potheads any day. Thats where the best music will be, for sure. (imho) Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 08:09:35 -0500 From: "Anne Sandstrom" Subject: season of loss Dear Lance, I'm so sorry to hear that you're hurting so much. But I'm heartened that you came to us and that you're able to get some of the love and support you need here. Gee, Joni really knew what she was taking about in, River, eh? I'd prescribe listening to that song to help you get through this. And, as she said, "Love is the strongest poison and medicine of all." Well, hopefully some of our love will help you get through this. The fact that you've reached out is a very good thing. It takes a lot of strength to do so. I admire your courage and spirit. I hope this season of hope and reflection brings you peace and joy. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:11:51 GMT From: "Ruth Davis" Subject: Joni and Pot Bree said: "ps. I still stand with my assertion that Joni PROBABLY never smoked the stuff..IT*" I am almost certain she did, Bree. I recall seeing a picture of her around the CSN era, and she was holding a big bong. She made a statement later to the effect that smoking pot was O.K., so long as you don't make it your God. Sounds fairly balanced and reasonable to me. Use it - don't abuse it. The hemp plant has many beneficial uses. The oil from the seed is sold in health food stores - it contains an extremely useful essential fatty acid - one of the Omegas. The fibers make better rope than the nylon crap you get nowadays. In Canada, you can buy very durable clothing made from hemp. I think it should be legalized for those and other purposes here. I do think it should be restricted to use by people age 21 and above. Ruth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 06:26:02 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni and Pot - --- Ruth Davis wrote: > I do think it should be > restricted to use by people age 21 and above. and you should have to wear a helmet! ;) Em ps.....kidding! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:30:25 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: RE: Joni and Pot Hi Ruth..and all.. I was really just fooling .....I just interjected Joni for Joni content..that is all. I have a weird/dumb sense of humor. AND I would bet that Joni hanging around CSN...she toked a few in her time. Bree >Bree said: "ps. I still stand with my assertion that Joni PROBABLY >never smoked the >stuff..IT*" > >I am almost certain she did, Bree. I recall seeing a picture of her around >the CSN era, and she was holding a big bong. She made a statement later to >the effect that smoking pot was O.K., so long as you don't make it your >God. Sounds fairly balanced and reasonable to me. Use it - don't abuse >it. > >The hemp plant has many beneficial uses. The oil from the seed is sold in >health food stores - it contains an extremely useful essential fatty acid - >one of the Omegas. The fibers make better rope than the nylon crap you get >nowadays. In Canada, you can buy very durable clothing made from hemp. I >think it should be legalized for those and other purposes here. I do think >it should be restricted to use by people age 21 and above. > >Ruth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:06:26 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Pot, Joni, Music, etc now njc Em wrote: >I guess people are going to believe the "Reefer Madness" hype forever, >and be fearful. > > Perhaps you shouldn't dismiss people's experience so easily. Also note, that i was careful not to say ALL people who used heavily and stopped experienced such withdrawls.. Denying people's experience is no more honest than saying using pot will send you mad. It is fun for a lot of people and much less harm than some drugs, and I include alchohol as a drug, because it is. So whether you have used it or not, you cannot deny the experience of others. when people do this, it makes me wonder why they want to. Sometimes their ideas about things are more important than any other consideration. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:21:46 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: Pot, Joni, Music, etc now njc - --- colin wrote: > Sometimes their ideas about things are more important than any other > consideration. You're right. For me its partly political. I love to fly in the face of the right wing, and being pro-marijuana reform does that very nicely. I don't disregard people's experience on an individual basis. But generally, I can only go by what I hear and see, and what I read as well as what I've observed first hand in my close aquiantances. I mean, there maybe be infants who have ugly withdrawals from breast milk - but that doesn't mean it needs to be illegal. Whoever has had a total meltdown when quitting pot - hey I feel really badly for them. Withdrawal from anything we love/crave/depend on can produce bad results. I've actually been reading a bit about this online this morning, and I seem to be coming up with the greatest negative effect of marijuana withdrawal is irritability and aggression. Maybe that person NEEDS to be on marijuana, or something to calm them down and mellow them out. If a person chooses to self-medicate with the smoke of a weed, rather than with some mystery chemical sold by the major pharmaceutical co's, then I say right on. Again, I am not discounting the discomfort some may have suffered, and I find it unfortunate that it appears that I do. Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:22:07 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: Support to Lance/NJC Hi Lance, Thanks for sharing your situation with our wonderful group here. I'm so sorry for the pain you are going through. A few years ago I also suffered a devastating break up with someone I loved deeply and am living proof that those first dark days and weeks do get brighter with time. As my luck would have it, a few months later I found the JMDL and the following year attended my first Jonifest. Never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined that I'd find such a warm, kind and loving group of friends and musicians. Every day when I open my e-mail it's like saying hi to all my friends, I love this place! Those were the first steps in starting to feel like a whole person again and from there I've trekked all over the U.S. and to Canada in Jonifest related travels! Our friends have posted some wise words here - talk about it when you can, don't be afraid to let it out, cry, whatever it takes, and be safe in knowing our little JMDL community is here for you. Take care of yourself, Donna >>> Lance Michel 12/1/2004 1:52:20 PM >>> Hello To all on this List... This is Lance....The outpouring of Love, kindness, support, sharing, and words of wisdom that I have received is overwhelming; though not in a bad way... I have directly responding to many of you that wrote me (and I hope to continue to do so); but I wanted to send a message to the entire list thanking you with all my heart... I took a chance with my message...One which I was tentative about, and felt very vunerable about; but I guess my spirit knew that this list would receive me with loving arms...You have. I do have more I would like to say; but right now I just want to say... Thank you. I am trying to let myself 'mourn' and hurt, without being overwhelmed, and that is not easy for me....I am also trying to keep my faith that things will be good again, and that I can find love again; or that it will find me....Again, not easy for me...But I am trying...With all the prayers and love that have been sent my way today from you all, it does make it that much easier though, and believable. Bless you all....Lance This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:13:53 GMT From: "Ruth Davis" Subject: Guvmint Star Trek - NJC The thought has occurred to me that the current administration (before the resignations) could be the cast of the original Star Trek. Colin Powell would be Mr. Spock  always impeccably reasonable and logical  often over-ruled. Condoleeza Rice is a hard-edged version of the gentle Lt. Uhura. For some reason, I think Ashcroft would be Bones. Scotty would be Alan Greenspan: Captain! The falling dollar! The long-term debt! The massive trade deficit! I dont think the economy can take any more! And of course, Dubya would be Kirk  brash, emotional, but above all, Captain of the ship. Sadly, it seems Mr.'s Chekov and Sulu are not represented in the Administration. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:38:23 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni and Pot Ruth Davis wrote: > Bree said: "ps. I still stand with my assertion that Joni PROBABLY never smoked the > stuff..IT*" > > I am almost certain she did, Bree. I recall seeing a picture of her around the CSN era, and she was holding a big bong. She made a statement later to the effect that smoking pot was O.K., so long as you don't make it your God. Sounds fairly balanced and reasonable to me. Use it - don't abuse it. In an article in Musician magazine about the relationship between drugs and music, (this would be late 80's/early 90's) they asked different musicians to comment, and Joni affirmed that she had used pot [at least - ed.], but cautioned that you couldn't depend on it for inspiration more than once in a while - something like that. I'm sure it's in the archives. > The hemp plant has many beneficial uses. Yes, it makes fine paper, better than cutting down forests.(Kanaf does, too). And you can even make fuel out of it. > The oil from the seed is sold in health food stores - it contains an extremely useful essential fatty acid - one of the Omegas. The fibers make better rope than the nylon crap you get nowadays. In Canada, you can buy very durable clothing made from hemp. I think it should be legalized for those and other purposes here. I do think it should be restricted to use by people age 21 and above. > Ruth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 18:37:57 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Pot, Joni, Music, etc now njc Em wrote: >--- colin wrote: > > >>Sometimes their ideas about things are more important than any other >>consideration. >> >> > >You're right. For me its partly political. I love to fly in the face of >the right wing, and being pro-marijuana reform does that very nicely. >I don't disregard people's experience on an individual basis. But >generally, I can only go by what I hear and see, and what I read as >well as what I've observed first hand in my close aquiantances. >I mean, there maybe be infants who have ugly withdrawals from breast >milk - but that doesn't mean it needs to be illegal. > > You seem to be confused. I talked about there being real and pretty awful withdrawal for some people. No where did I talk about the legal positon of any drug. if you want to know my opinion on that here it is: I don't think the law should interfere in what an adult does with their mind and body. so i am not for drugs of any sort being illegal. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:45:57 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Guvmint Star Trek - NJC Ruth Davis wrote: > The thought has occurred to me that the current administration (before the resignations) could be the cast of the original Star Trek. Colin Powell would be Mr. Spock  always impeccably reasonable and logical  often over-ruled. Condoleeza Rice is a hard-edged version of the gentle Lt. Uhura. For some reason, I think Ashcroft would be Bones. Scotty would be Alan Greenspan: Captain! The falling dollar! The long-term debt! The massive trade deficit! I dont think the economy can take any more! And of course, Dubya would be Kirk  brash, emotional, but above all, Captain of the ship. > > Sadly, it seems Mr.'s Chekov and Sulu are not represented in the Administration. I love this! Somebody call Saturday Night Live. Cheney could be Sulu, the one with his hands on the controls. "Yes, Captain" then he does what he wants anyway. I think Rumsfeld would have to be a Klingon, though. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:48:19 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: Pot, Joni, Music, etc now njc I probably am confused. Em - --- colin wrote: > You seem to be confused. I talked about there being real and pretty > awful withdrawal for some people. No where did I talk about the legal > > positon of any drug. if you want to know my opinion on that here it > is: > I don't think the law should interfere in what an adult does with > their > mind and body. so i am not for drugs of any sort being illegal. > > -- > bw > colin > http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 13:00:51 -0800 (PST) From: mags h Subject: tele vison NJC Randi wrote: <<>> now moi: hey Randi....I live peacefully without a television ( for nearly six months now).. I agree ....take away my computer and I'm not a happy girrll :-) Mags au Winterpeg np: the real one and only Bruce 1971 recording at Le Hibou Coffee House, Ottawa, Ontario ;-) - ----- what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? - ----- Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 17:35:36 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: downtown dime store someone (LS) is thinking of quitting this crazy scene and opening a darling downtown jc dime store (w/awning). . . so far she's selling shells, ink, rubies bows crocuses ice cream scrambled eggs curtains tea lemonade and painted ponies and she said she's going to play her guitar for free oh. . . and paprika the nasdaq just went up you want in? what else could she offer? XOXOXOOXOXOXOXOX Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 18:21:16 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Guvmint Star Trek - NJC I love it too...especially if we could beam them all the hell away from here! Reminds me of when I was in college and we put on musical-comedy talent shows at our church, me & my buddy wrote a sketch about "what if Highland UMC was run like Star Trek" and it went over really well...I remember building the set for it with all these blinking Christmas lights. Thankfully there were no camcorders in those days and I can enjoy it in my memory instead of seeing with my own eyes how excrutiatingly bad it probably was. Bob NP: JT, "Everybody Has The Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 18:23:22 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: downtown dime store **what else could she offer? Inspired by my NP, I'll say: snakes ladders Bob NP: Joni, "Snakes & Ladders" (not one of Joni's better moments imo) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 21:37:09 -0500 From: Subject: Subject: Thank you !!!! Wow, you quoted "Harry's House" in your second post! There are a few hundred of us who think the era around The Hissing of Summer Lawns was a high-water mark where lyrics are concerned. The JMDL was the first place I found people who "get" the depth and width of Joni's talents. It's been my second home for a long while. If you (or anyone else) wants the BBC appearance of Joni and some upstart named James Taylor, write to me off-list. All the best, Lama now playing: "Nilsson Sings Newman" I love this disc. If you like short but fun albums, and like either Harry Nilsson or Randy Newman, you need to pick this up. It's worth the effort. Ed said, >She is a TRUE and pure artist. Her words amaze me, and they never fail to move me. Her painting does the same. She does what she does with honesty. "A helicopter lands on the Pan Am roof, like a dragonfly on a tomb." > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 21:44:33 -0500 From: Subject: JT on TV. njc Last night on "The West Wing", Prez Bartlett decided to honor Sam Cooke. Because he isn't on this Earth to accept the honor, they had JT talk (all too briefly) about his influence then play a tune in the White House. They finally ran out of ideas so they had President Bartlett cause an international incident. Every dog retires in the end I guess. All the best, Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 22:21:14 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: Thank you !!!! **now playing: "Nilsson Sings Newman" I love this disc. If you like short but fun albums, and like either Harry Nilsson or Randy Newman, you need to pick this up. It's worth the effort. I agree, Jim...a great record. Nilsson made some missteps later in his career when he got a bit too much of the demon rum in him, but in his prime he was out of this world...not just as a songwriter but also like you say as a vocalist, doing the songs of Randy Newman or better yet his ahead-of-his-time salute to the standards "A little touch of Schmilsson in the Night" which is absolutely drop dead gorgeous. And...Nilsson sung Fred Neil's "Everybody's Talkin" in me and Smurf's favorite movie Midnight Cowboy. And to bring it all back around, Nilsson and Joni BOTH wrote songs for this movie that were rejected - Joni's "Midnight Cowboy Song" and Nilsson's "I Guess The Lord Must Be In New York City". Favorite Nilsson recording? Boy, that would be a tough one. Probably would be "Jump Into The Fire" because how can you resist that killer bass riff? But then there's the lyrical brilliance of "Think About Your Troubles" or "Morning Glory" or the pure pop fun of "Good Old Desk" or "Cuddly Toy"...thankfully, I get to have them ALL. Hey, and here's another cool link...P.M. Dawn covered/sampled Nilsson's "Coconut" as well as Joni's "I Had A King" and "Don't Interrupt The Sorrow". It's a small world sometimes, musically speaking. Bob NP: Ani Difranco, "Animal" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 22:30:45 -0500 From: Subject: Re: Re: Subject: Thank you !!!! And it's great fun to have a few people playing the drum solo at 1AM with a beer buzz on. Or so I've been told. Reliving a mis-spent youth, Lama > From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com > Favorite Nilsson recording? Boy, that would be a tough one. Probably would be > "Jump Into The Fire" because how can you resist that killer bass riff? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 22:37:07 -0500 From: Subject: Re: things I think about before breakfast, njc I'll take this one. The pre-emptive military strike is announced on the evening news every night for 6 months while they gear up. Lama >>An inquisitive mind pondered: What are the differences and the similarities between terrorists and a preemptive military?>> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 23:23:32 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Orts Subject: any theologians in the house? (vaguely jc-no pun intended) Here's one of those sort of oddball things that I think about and just because my life is kind of full right now, it seems like a good time to look for more projects. I've long joked about writing a "Theology of Joni Mitchell" essay, and it's been a joke only because I never really thought I'd sit down to do. I still haven't, but I'm beginning to wonder if I should. Open Court Books (http://www.opencourtbooks.com/) does this series of pop culture "and Philosophy" books. Seinfeld and Philosophy, Simpsons and Philosophy, Matrix and Philosophy. They're collection of essays from Philosophers using pop culture as springboards for philosophical discussions. Well, my philosophical credentials are more than lacking, but I do have a theological education and I always find theological stuff in Joni's music, quite often Liberation Theology. So I've been thinking, "Could I gather a collection of theological writings on Joni Mitchell songs?" I sort of doubt my theological credentials aren't what Open Court might like them to be, but even if they weren't interested in a Joni Mitchell and Theology collection, someone else might be. Heck, I have in motion a vague plan to start my own publishing company so maybe I'd publish it myself. And what better place to begin than with the JMDL? If there are theologians in the house (and I think there may be), you don't have to write anything yet, this e-mail is just to guage interest and potential. I'd eventually cast the net wider if/when I get more serious about this. any and all feedback on this idea is welcome. While I'm in the Christian tradition, I would certainly entertain theological perspectives other than my own. Discuss. - -Neil writer, theologian, joni fan ===== Neil Ellis Orts 713-838-1787 Houston, TX keep up with my creative endeavors--join my newsletter list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/neonews ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #479 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)