From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #475 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, November 29 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 475 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- joni mention on NPR [Deb Messling ] Re: women [Em ] Re: women [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: women [Em ] Joni, Hejira, and smoking pot [Smurfycopy@aol.com] movies of the 60's and 70's, njc ["Marianne Rizzo" ] next Sunday, Dylan interview NJC [Em ] Re: Joni v.s. Evil (a bit spooky):) [Randy Remote ] Re: movies of the 60's and 70's, njc [Randy Remote ] Tammy Faye [Nuriel Tobias ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 09:00:12 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: joni mention on NPR NPR's Weekend Edition show just included "Beginning of Survival" and the DVD "Refuge of the Roads" in their list of recommended holiday gifts. I came in at the tail end of the Survival blurb, but the review of the DVD was glowing. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:33:03 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: women Morning, Laura and Laurent and all, People should be able to be however they want to be. Some people revel in the difference between the sexes. A great gap between the "male" and the "female", physically speaking - gives them a feeling of things being "right" and that things are balanced and as they should be. Other people (like myself) feel sort of oppressed by this, and so, bust out of it and go for less "gap" and the more androgynous way of being. Its like some engines require a greater gap in the sparkplug to make things work - and some "less" gap. The spark having to jump a huge gap, kills the spark - for me - it never makes the leap and dies between the diodes. For others, the spark having made that great leap is reallllllll attractive gets them all jiggy. And thats great - for them. I think there's room for alllll kinds of people. To me, the women's movement is about giving women the freedom to be however the naturally are, rather than simply empowering their foxy wiles (if they have any) and whatever other attributes are seen as mainly "feminine". I have definately noticed that the Joni-folks are (fort he most part that I've noticed) more of the "vive la difference" type - so I know I'm in the minority here. Laura, you say "I have never found an artist who uses her > female > attributes more perfectly in song and music than Joni. That is a > major reason > why she appeals to me". I guess I could say she appeals to me *despite* that. She hits hard enough that the femmy stuff doesn't have time to smarm her up. She's so hot and sharp and to the point that whatever smarm there is burns off before its can be detected. And I'm not trying to take "style" away from anyone - and Joni has great style - I feel. But to me, the references that tout great appreciation for the "gap" are not really among her most interesting. (and to me they are few and far between anyway) Nothing against those folks who appreciate great physical polarity between the sexes, but I maintain its not the only way to be. I'm more a tear down the walls kinda person. And its not just among str8 people that this occurs! No sirree! I know one hugely attractive femme lesbian who literally is not ABLE to find a woman masculine enough to turn her on. She requires that hard difference in order to get her buttons pushed. And can't find it! I think it sad. Anyway, thats just my butchly .02. And I'm out the door to wrench my motorcycle once again - generating plumber's butt and all..as soon as I finish this coffee and burp and scratch myself. :) Em - --- LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: > Laurent wrote: > > By the same token, I think this whole difference of opinions between > us is > typical of the difference between american and french women. From > what I've > seen, american women and feminists in particular take these "rights" > issues > very seriously and will fight hard for it. > > French women in general get a lot further by using their own > weapons and not > the men's. As a frenchman said: "women who want to be equal to men > really lack > ambition". Women are smarter, they don't need to fight hard against > men to > win. > > Hi Laurent, > > I like what you said. Yes, I agree, there are a lot of American > women > who take women's rights issues very seriously. I for sure do. What > could be > more serious for women than to be liberated from oppression? > > Feminism sometimes has gotten off track in my experience and has > really > become a form of masculinism rather than actually promoting women's > attributes. > I like it in Joni's song, Ladies Man, where she says, "Why do you > keep on > trying to make a man of me." > > Joni is feminism at it's best in my opinion. She uses her own > weapons of > beauty and intelligence to be an example to and to empower women > while at the > same time attracting men. I have never found an artist who uses her > female > attributes more perfectly in song and music than Joni. That is a > major reason > why she appeals to me. > > Love, > Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:45:35 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: women Em writes: She hits hard enough that the femmy stuff doesn't have time to smarm her up. She's so hot and sharp and to the point that whatever smarm there is burns off before its can be detected. Hi Em! That hot and sharpness that Joni portrays is my understanding of her as feminine. I don't see Joni as feminine in a stereotypical sense and for this reason, I consider her to be a very effective feminist. She doesn't appear to be trying to immitate anybody. The femininity that appeals to me in Joni is how she is a strong and natural woman not only in appearance but in thoughts and in how she expresses these. Em: But to me, the references that tout great appreciation for the "gap" are not really among her most interesting. (and to me they are few and far between anyway) Nothing against those folks who appreciate great physical polarity between the sexes, but I maintain its not the only way to be. I'm more a tear down the walls kinda person. I guess you are talking about a gap between feminine and masculine here. I agree, there doesn't have to be a gap. I don't appreciate culturally placed gaps, like the sugary and the macho concepts of feminine and masculine. I think Joni is in a different realm from these. To me feminine and masculine are harmonious... distinct but complimentary... no wall between them. Joni's feminity is powerful because it has perfect pitch. It harmonizes with notes all along the continuum or keyboard, and for this reason, it is a very effective and natural weapon in the sense Laurent first mentioned... not only regarding gender but also regarding other varieties in life such as race, politics, etc. I can't see it as separate from her music, words, or art. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:05:52 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: women Hi Laura I love how you really cut through stuff and sort it out. I bet you would be fun to have a conversation with! Yeah everything you said makes sense.. :) Em ps: and you know I think my previous reply was as a result of not *exactly* understanding what you were talking about before in your previous ..but I thought I did...anyway, again, would make for a great "in-person" conversation, I think. - --- LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: > Em writes: > > She hits hard enough that the femmy stuff doesn't have time to smarm > her up. > She's so hot and sharp and to the point that whatever smarm there is > burns off before its can be detected. > > Hi Em! > > That hot and sharpness that Joni portrays is my understanding of > her as > feminine. I don't see Joni as feminine in a stereotypical sense and > for this > reason, I consider her to be a very effective feminist. She doesn't > appear to > be trying to immitate anybody. The femininity that appeals to me in > Joni is > how she is a strong and natural woman not only in appearance but in > thoughts > and in how she expresses these. > > > Em: But to me, the references that tout great appreciation for the > "gap" are > not > really among her most interesting. (and to me they are few and far > between > anyway) Nothing against those folks who appreciate great physical > polarity > between the sexes, but I maintain its not the only way to be. I'm > more a tear > down the walls kinda person. > > > I guess you are talking about a gap between feminine and > masculine here. > I agree, there doesn't have to be a gap. I don't appreciate > culturally > placed gaps, like the sugary and the macho concepts of feminine and > masculine. I > think Joni is in a different realm from these. > > To me feminine and masculine are harmonious... distinct but > complimentary... no wall between them. Joni's feminity is powerful > because it has perfect > pitch. It harmonizes with notes all along the continuum or keyboard, > and for > this reason, it is a very effective and natural weapon in the sense > Laurent > first mentioned... not only regarding gender but also regarding other > varieties > in life such as race, politics, etc. I can't see it as separate from > her > music, words, or art. > > Love, > Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:34:32 EST From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Joni, Hejira, and smoking pot Someone who knows about my Joni habit directed me to a site that has the following observations about smoking pot and listening to Hejira, not that I would know anything about that. Odd thing is that it's from a gay porn site, not that I'd know anything about that. (I do have to admit that it might be quite nice to have Michael Paz hold me tight and whisper sweet nothings in my ear, not that I would know anything about that.) Here it is: Stoned (Again) There are probably, at most, I'd imagine, about a dozen albums in my CD collection that make me want to smoke pot when I listen to them. I started considering this list while playing Joni Mitchell's Hijera the other day -- always an autumnal necessity -- and then experienced a significant time travelin' moment. When Hijera was released back in 1976 I was a certifiable -- joints for breakfast -- head. I toggled between pot throughout the daytime and the occasional lines of coke in the evening to snap clarity back into my gauzy nervous system. I was living in L.A., and I'd been lucky enough to land a job in the music business -- working for one of So Cal's premiere, uber-hip, multi-track recording studios. Mitchell's album had crawled under my brain, about two weeks after I'd purchased it. Initially, after the surreal and heady Hissing Of Summer Lawns, I thought Hejira boring and lacking hooks and melody -- but then an artist friend came by one day and made me listen to side two's opener: Song For Sharon -- stoned. That was the crystallizing moment. After that Hijera played incessantly -- at home, in my car -- becoming a soundtrack. Pot was simply a given at work, and tacitly approved by our boss. In a milieu where Frank Zappa walked the halls every afternoon, this wasn't unusual. One day, after having smoked a moist oiler with a session musician in the studio's rec room, I called home and convinced my roomate Christine to cue up the song Amelia and set the phone's receiver alongside the stereo -- while she continued her apartment cleaning -- leaving me to bliss out at my desk, the song coming through the phone's earpiece in a tinny stream. I'd a sweet frisson the other day, reading David Sedaris's new book, and discovering that Hijera had generated a similar obsession for him; to the extent that his sister would only allow him to share an apartment with her if he promised not to bring the Mitchell masterpiece with him. Maybe it's a gay thing. I can't imagine a contemporary album that would have that sort of effect on me -- now. And I don't consider myself any less romantic -- or beguiled by musical genius. Maybe it's because as I moved into my 30s and 40s I smoked less pot -- to the point where years would go by between puffs. I'll take the occasional bong hit nowadays, but usually to accompany making art. I guess I've moved from a passive position to an active one -- an important distinction; but still I miss that sort of involvment with a chunk of music. So I'm going to have to sit down during the holiday, plow through my formidable collection of discs and compile some sort of list to have on hand when I just want to kick back, fire one up and listen to something really really good -- other than Joni. For those who are pruriently interested, this came from << http://www.nightcharm.com/introduction/introduction.html >>. XO, - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:43:52 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: movies of the 60's and 70's, njc We're just finishing a movie that I purchased in the $1.00 bargain bin (yes, and I did get Pocket Full of MIracles for a dollar too). . the movie is called A Small Circle of Friends. I never heard of it before but it is pretty good. . 60's setting anti war somewhat I'd say it was worth seeing. . and then I got to thinking about the movies that have the 6o's and 7o's as the setting or were perhaps made in the 6o's and 7o's. . . . and that I'd like your suggestions about these kind of movies to see. I'm a hippy at heart and find them inspiring. . and I love the anti war type ones and the whole 6o's -7o's- milieu and what the times stood for. A good solid music cd set or something of really good 60's and 70's songs would be good too. I am sure there are some collections. LO VE Marianne ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ n~~~~ I can't talk to you baby I get so weak Sometimes I think love is just mythical _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:51:46 EST From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: The Last Time I Saw ... Paris? plus Dorothy Fields I watched a PBS show about Broadway musicals last night because I know next to nothing about musicals and all the boys make fun of me because of it. Anyway, they featured this song called "The Last Time I. Saw Paris," which I have only vaguely heard of somewhere in the dim past, and I thought that if there are people here who haven't heard of the song, they might be interested in reading the lyrics. I wonder if Joni was making allusions to TLTISP with TLTISR ... She uses lots of the same words, such as 'dark' and 'cafe' and 'romantic'. No ice skaters in TLTISP, though. The song is by Oscar Hammerstein II & Jerome Kern. Here are the lyrics: A lady known as Paris, romantic and charming Has left her old companions and faded from view Lonely men with lonely eyes are seeking her in vain Her streets are where they were, but there's no sign of her She has left the Seine The last time I saw Paris, her heart was warm and gay, I heard the laughter of her heart in every street cafe The last time I saw Paris, her trees were dressed for spring, And lovers walked beneath those trees and birds found songs to sing. I dodged the same old taxicabs that I had dodged for years. The chorus of their squeaky horns was music to my ears. The last time I saw Paris, her heart was warm and gay, No matter how they change her, I'll remember her that way. I'll think of happy hours, and people who shared them Old women, selling flowers, in markets at dawn Children who applauded, Punch and Judy in the park And those who danced at night and kept our Paris bright 'til the town went dark. Also, the show highlighted Dorothy Fields's career and her contributions to American musical theater. You must be very proud, David Lahm, to have had such a talented woman for a mother. I was very impressed, and actually knew a lot of her work despite my ignorance of musicals. - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:02:42 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: the forest, njc truth is the forest renewal and purity every effort made to cherish it what is honest and sincere to our existence after three straight days there the forest becomes all that is possible and real a legacy each finding ways to preserve it can we? _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:26:05 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: next Sunday, Dylan interview NJC I'm guessing some of you already know, and I'm guessing some of you don't even want to know that much, lol, but next Sunday the 5th of December, Bob Dylan will be on 60 Minutes, interviewed by Ed Bradley. I can't wait! Gotta admit I thought it was tonight and so am a bit disappointed. Ah well, NEXT week. Em :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:50:37 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni v.s. Evil (a bit spooky):) Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Randy Remote wrote: > > "The "vocal eliminator" uses phase to eliminate sounds that are 'in the middle' of a stereo spread. Used mostly for singers who want to practice to their favorite tunes.There's "Tiger Bones", though... > > I wanted to mention "Tiger Bones" in my earlier post, but then i recalled that it's not a result of a "vocal eliminator" but a take of it's own. Isn't Tiger Bones the isolated guitar track from Taming? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:07:03 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: movies of the 60's and 70's, njc Marianne Rizzo wrote: > and then I got to thinking about the movies that have the 6o's and 7o's as > the setting or were perhaps made in the 6o's and 7o's. . . . and that I'd > like your suggestions about these kind of movies to see. Joe Alice's Restaurant The Magic Christian Woodstock Celebration At Big Sur Guess Who's Coming To Dinner MASH Billy Jack Never Give An Inch Easy Rider Harry and Tonto A Hard Days Night Head To Sir With Love Yellow Submarine Good Morning Vietnam Forrest Gump The Doors The Rutles-All You Need Is Cash Malcomb X Steal This Movie Almost Famous ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:27:17 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni, Hejira, and smoking pot I'd always considered Dark Side Of The Moon to be the ultimate pot-smoking record, not that I ever did. I just always imagined that it would be quite complemented by a little mind-altering substance. I was surprised that this guy chose Hejira, although I can see the selection - - it's pretty deep and after all Joni was into some mindbending when she wrote some of it if I recall. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:59:09 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Joni, Hejira, and smoking pot SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: "Hejira... - - it's pretty deep and after all Joni was into some mindbending when she wrote some of it if I recall." What do you mean by 'some mindbending', Bob? What happened back then? Nuriel Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:22:00 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Tammy Faye I was watching True Hollywood Stories (the only reason i tune to E on my TV) and that time it was about Tammy Faye. It was the first time i heard about her ex's "Heritage" plan and his idea of asking his "fans" to pay his institute and get a room in the "Heritage" hotel, 3 days every year, in return, which instantly reminded me of Joni's "Calling for large donations, Promising estates". But it's not about him that i want to talk about. While Tammy is basicly known as a "bad joke" (to say the least) - and i can understand why folks would treat her as such - the documentry show was dealing with the dry facts of her life, so that the viewer could then decide for himself what portrait of hers would he paint. Fact by fact, i suddenly started feeling that i'm viewing the story of Magda Goebbels. A girl who was driven mad by her family, then a silly woman on high heels that only wanted to be an artist but marched into a diabolic plan with an idiotic smile, got addicted to it, and then was caught in a man's spiderweb, went insane, without being able to get out of it ever again. By the end of the program she said: "I'm Going To Hell". Most of you would probably mock what i'm about to say next, but i couldn't escape the feeling that Tammy could very easily reflect in Joni's songs, not as the bitch, nor the wicked, but as all the namless women in Joni's songs that got caught in a men's world, did everything they could to please them, and while believing that they were a sort of First Ladies, were no more than victims. Nuriel Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #475 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)