From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #466 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, November 20 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 466 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Hello ["Maggie McNally" ] Attn: Fred Simon, njc [] Dog Eat Dog, was Re: Hello (The Box Set and The Answer) [] Re: [] Re: Subject: Re: Hello (The Box Set and The Answer [Randy Remote Subject: RE: Hello I just bought The Beginning of Survival and am won over to Joni's campaign to make us all take a second, third, whatever look at these songs, particularly in the context of our times. I have only listened to it on my little computer speakers, but very much look forward to digging deeply into the sounds and messages on my home system. Were these songs also "remastered," or do you have to buy the boxed set to get them in their most sonically brilliant form? The liner notes on TBOS reference additional engineering and recording and the masters, but not remastering. Maggie - -----Original Message----- From: Mark or Travis [mailto:mark.travis@gte.net] Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 3:06 PM To: Steven Polifka; lacyslvs@juno.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Hello Steven Polifka wrote: > Hi Ruth! > Welcome back! Nice to see you posting about DED! > From another Dog Eat Dog lover... > Steve > and Ruth Davis wrote: > I think Joni predicted Americas disturbing transformation in Dog Eat > Dog. Ive been playing that a lot lately. I know from past > discussions that many people have stylistic objections to that work, > but I have to say go back and read the lyrics, if you cannot stomach > the music. The snake-fired evangelists and racketeers have all but > taken over, as she warned about almost 20 years ago. I'm beginning to count myself among the 'Dog Eat Dog' lovers. Since getting TBOS and then purchasing the Geffen box set, I have come to a new appreciation of DED. I always thought the lyrics were brilliant and relevant and that the production suited them very well. But the remastered reissue in the box set has led me to believe that it is equally as brilliant musically. Some of the arrangements are quite intricate and have a complexity and even delicacy in some parts of it that I find to be truly wonderful. DED has definitely moved up in my ranking of Joni's albums, none of which are 'bad', in my opinion (whatever that means). Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:10:41 -0500 From: Subject: Attn: Fred Simon, njc Yo, the discography here http://www.opendoormanagement.com/fredsimon/#disco doesn't list the new one yet. Jim L'Hommedieu Covington, KY Sorry to use the bandwidth but I don't have Fred's email address. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:13:14 -0500 From: Subject: Dog Eat Dog, was Re: Hello (The Box Set and The Answer) I'm not a technical expert but until one checks in, here are my 2 cents: The difference between my store-bought LP of "Wild Things Run Fast" and the GEFFEN box version is small to none. (The piano still wavers on the sustained notes at the beginning of "Chinese Cafe". Too bad she didn't use Fred Simon's engineer, Ken Christianson, on that one.) On the other hand, the difference between my LP of "Dog Eat Dog" and the GEFFEN box CD version are not small at all. As far as I can tell from interviews and credits, the same re-mastering was applied to all of the titles in the GEFFEN box. Mike Ragogna said he "hardly did any remastering". That doesn't mean that DED was mastered superbly to begin with! In fact, his opinion is that the original master tapes weren't used by GEFFEN originally on any of their titles. (MFSL wasn't part of GEFFEN so their mastering of WTRF is beside the point for most customers). This business about which tapes they used originally may be the whole story. As I understand it, records were made from "production masters" which are *dupes* of the 2-track master. If they made those production masters on a very crummy machine (as bad as my computer's built-in sound card for example), it would have made the original DED sound murky. It could lack detail. Now that Ken Christianson has made flat transfers *using a great system*, DED is transformed. The differences I hear on DED are not just differences from the old sampling rate vs. the new sampling rate. To me it sounds like the original job was botched and now we have a "proper" transfer as the Brits would say. About 96/24: Until Simon M. checks in, I'll take a stab at the technical difference between a 96/24 transfer and whatever they did way back in the 1st generation. I think the 1st generation CDs sound so bad because the conversion from analog to digital was done 44,000 samples per second, using a 16 bit word length. (44k/16-bit) Both of those numbers are low compared to the the 96,000 samples per second and the 24 bit word length cited in the credits of the GEFFEN box. (96k/24-bit) In my living room, the differences between 44/16 and 96/24 are better dynamics, a less gritty sound, smoother low treble, better detail in tambourines & cymbals, and the high vibrato thing that Dolly Parton and Emmylou Harris do. Dolly has a fantastic voice which sounds like s-h-i-t in 1st generation digital. People who have classical collections talk about truer sound of "massed violins" too. As I've already impiled several times, equipment differences alone do not explain why WTRF sounds about the same (great) while DED is lifted out of the murk. I know the GEFFEN box is expensive but it was worth it to me to finally have a complete instrumental-and-scat version of "Speechless". Joni doesn't throw us many bonus tracks so I jumped at it. Finding the transformed DED was a bonus. All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu Covington, KY mark.travis@gte.net quotes >from the BOX SET CREDITS: 96K/24-bit mastered from the original master tapes @ Universal Mastering Studios West - North Hollywood, CA Somebody else with greater technical knowledge will have to explain exactly what that means.> Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Does the boxset says "remastered" - cuase the main reason i > didn't buy it was that guy's note at jonimitchell.com that > no remastering was done. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:23:58 -0500 From: Subject: Subject: Re: Hello (The Box Set and The Answer Uh oh. Randy Remote didn't say "maximize the volume". He's a musician and a recording engineer, so he wouldn't make that mistake. He was probably trying to simplify a technical discussion because you read and write English as a second language. It was a gesture of kindness to you, Nuriel. All the best, Jim >From: Nuriel Tobias >Maximizing the volume isn't remastering, Randy. It's an EQ work. > When the bass is a bit distorted - compression is used. When > the high sounds reach a hissing- like level - it's fixed. > It's decreasing the dynamic range. The carefully > layered sound quality of a remastered album/cd means that > you can now easily focus on a specific instrument and track > it easily while still enjoying the sound of the whole group. What RR DID say was, >>When Ragogna says "We hardly did any remastering", that means >>it was remastered. Mastering involves putting finishing touches on >>the master tapes that have been delivered by the mixing engineer. The >>mastering engineer listens to them and decides what needs to be done >>to them to maximize the sound. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:57:25 +0000 From: Subject: Re: I changed my email address on the JMDL site to revrvl@comcast.net and even subscribed at that address but I have got nothing at that email address. This email address will be gone in a few days and I may never get a chance to check back at this old address again. So this may be goodbye forever. If it is, Goodbye! And if it isn't goodbye forever, it is because maybe pity will be taken upon me and I will be allowed to get JMDL mail at my new address and very soon only email address. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 21:33:19 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Hello (The Box Set and The Answer I was just trying to explain what mastering is for people who might not know. Making EQ changes, sequencing the songs, matching the sound and volume of the songs, and adding compression or limiting are some of the operations-but the most important ingredient is the mastering engineer's ears. Joni has used Bernie Grundman for years, and he is considered by many to be the best in the biz. Jim, what you said about the box set makes sense. And I know what you mean about Dolly. I have one of those Trio CDs and it sounds terrible. I bet I could run it through some tubes and make it sound more natural. RR ps remastering is taking the final mixes and mastering them again, which assumes there is a reason to expect an improvement in sound. In the early days of CD, the big record companies rushed to press their catalog for eager buyers without much thought about the source tapes, another reason the quality often suffered. jlamadoo@fuse.net wrote: > Uh oh. Randy Remote didn't say "maximize the volume". He's a musician and a recording engineer, so he wouldn't make that mistake. He was probably trying to simplify a technical discussion because you read and write English as a second language. It was a gesture of kindness to you, Nuriel. > > All the best, > Jim > > >From: Nuriel Tobias > >Maximizing the volume isn't remastering, Randy. It's an EQ work. > > When the bass is a bit distorted - compression is used. When > > the high sounds reach a hissing- like level - it's fixed. > > It's decreasing the dynamic range. The carefully > > layered sound quality of a remastered album/cd means that > > you can now easily focus on a specific instrument and track > > it easily while still enjoying the sound of the whole group. > > What RR DID say was, > >>When Ragogna says "We hardly did any remastering", that means > >>it was remastered. Mastering involves putting finishing touches on > >>the master tapes that have been delivered by the mixing engineer. The > >>mastering engineer listens to them and decides what needs to be done > >>to them to maximize the sound. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 01:04:06 EST From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Daily Show letter-NJC After reading this I thought of the posts made by Kay and Patrick about living in New York City during 911. I too felt fear after Joni Fest last year we were in the city during the Blackout, not knowing for hours if we were being attacked or at war. I too know the anger in this world from my friends around the globe, the feed back of their treatment from being from the United States. We are no longer the United States, so maybe it's time for a renaming of our divided Nation. Peace Mingus Written by a woman in New York. Posted on the Daily Show web site. Letter To The Red States: Sorry, I try not to deluge people with my ramblings. But I had to write this and, having written it, had to send it. Even though I don't know anyone I can send it to (without alienating my Republican in-laws, who are the only "middle country" people I know). I am writing this letter to the people in the red states in the middle of the country -- the people who voted for George W. Bush. I am writing this letter because I don't think we know each other. So I'll make an introduction. I am a New Yorker who voted for John Kerry. I used to live in California, and if I still lived there, I would vote for Kerry. I used to live in Washington, DC, and if I still lived there, I would vote for Kerry. Kerry won in all three of those regions. Maybe you want to know more about me. Or maybe not; maybe you think you know me already. You think I am some anti-American anarchist because I dislike George W. Bush. You think that I am immoral and anti-family, because I support women's reproductive freedom and gay rights. You think that I am dangerous, and even evil, because I do not abide by your religious beliefs. Maybe you are content to think that, to write me off as a "liberal" --the dreaded "L" word -- and rejoice that your candidate has triumphed over evil, immoral, anti-American, anti-family people like me. But maybe you are still curious. So here goes: this is who I am. I am a New Yorker. I was here, in my apartment downtown, on September 11th. I watched the Towers burn from the roof of my building. I went inside so that I couldn't see them when they fell. I had friends who were inside. I have a friend who still has nightmares about watching people jump and fall from the Towers. He will never be the same. How many people like him do you know? People that can't sit in a restaurant without plotting an escape route, in case it blows up? I am a worker. I work across the street from the Citigroup Center, which the government told us is a "target" of terrorism. Later, we found out they were relaying very old information, but it was already too late. They had given me bad dreams again. The subway stop near my office was crowded with bomb-sniffing dogs, policemen in heavy protective gear, soldiers. Now, every time I enter or exit my office, all of my possessions are X-rayed to make sure I don't have any weapons. How often are you stopped by a soldier with a bomb-sniffing dog outside your office? I am a neighbor. I have a neighbor who is a 9/11 widow. She has two children. My husband does odd jobs for her now, like building bookshelves. Things her husband should do. He uses her husband's tools, and the two little girls tell him, "Those are our daddy's tools." How many 9/11 widows and orphans do you know? How often do you fill in for their dead loved ones? I am a taxpayer. I worked my butt off to get where I did, and so did my parents. My parents saved and borrowed and sent me to college. I worked my way through graduate school. I won a full tuition scholarship to law school. All for the privilege of working 2,600 hours last year. That works out to a 50 hour week, every week, without any vacation days at all. I get to work by 9 am and rarely leave before 9 pm. I eat dinner at my office much more often than I eat dinner at home. My husband and I paid over $70,000 in federal income tax last year. At some point in the future, we will have to pay much more -- once this country faces its deficit and the impossible burden of Social Security. In fact, the areas of the country that supported Kerry -- New York, California, Illinois, Massachusetts -- they are the financial centers of the nation. They are the tax base of this country. How much did you pay, Kansas? How much did you contribute to this government you support, Alabama? How much of this war in Iraq did you pay for? I am a liberal. The funny part is, liberals have this reputation for living in Never-Neverland, being idealists, not being sensible. But let me tell you how I see the world: I see America as one nation in a world of nations. Therefore, I think we should try to get along with other nations. I see that gay people exist. Therefore, I think they should be allowed to exist, and be treated the same as other people. I see ways in which women are not allowed to control their own bodies. Therefore, I think we should give women more control over their bodies. I see that people have awful diseases. Therefore, I think we should enable scientists to try to cure them. I see that we have a Constitution. Therefore, I think it should be upheld. I see that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Therefore, I think that Iraq was not an imminent danger to me. It seems so pragmatic to me. How do you see the world? Do you really think voting against gay marriage will keep people from being gay? Would you really prefer that people continue to die from Parkinson's disease? Do you really not care about the Constitutional rights of political detainees? Would you really have supported the war if you knew the truth, or would you have wanted to spend more of our money on health care, job training, terrorism preparedness? I am an American. I have an American flag flying outside my home. I love my home more than anything. I love that I grew up right outside New York City. I first went to the Statue of Liberty with my 5th grade class, and my mom and dad took me to the Empire State Building when I was 8. I love taking the subway to Yankee Stadium. I loved living in Washington DC and going on dates to the Lincoln Memorial. It is because I love this country so much that I argue with my political opponents as much I do. I am not safe. I never feel safe. My in-laws live in a small town in Ohio, and that town has received more federal funding, per capita, for terrorism preparedness than New York City has. I take subways and buses every day. I work in a skyscraper across the street from a "target." I have emergency supplies and a spare pair of sneakers in my desk, in case something happens while I'm at work. Do you? How many times a month do you worry that your subway is going to blow up? When you hear sirens on the street, do you run to the window to make sure everything is okay? When you hear an airplane, do you flinch? Do you dread beautiful, blue-skied September days? I don't know a single New Yorker who doesn't spend the month of September on tip-toes, superstitiously praying for rain so we don't have to relive that beautiful, blue-skied day. I am lonely. I feel that we, as a nation, have alienated all our friends and further provoked our enemies. I feel unprotected. Most of all I feel alienated from my fellow citizens, because I don't understand what you are thinking. You voted for a man who started a war in Iraq for no reason, against the wishes of the entire world. You voted for a man whose lack of foresight and inability to plan has led to massive insurgencies in Iraq, where weapons are disappearing into the hands of terrorists. You voted for a man who let Osama Bin Laden escape into the hills of Afghanistan so that he could start that war in Iraq. You voted for a man who doesn't want to let people love who they want to love; doesn't want to let doctors cure their patients; doesn't want to let women rule their destinies. I don't understand why you voted for this man. For me, it is not enough that he is personable; it is not enough that he seems like one of the guys. Why did you vote for him? Why did you elect a man that lied to us in order to convince us to go to war? (Ten years ago you were incensed when our president lied about his sex life; you thought it was an impeachable offense.) Why did you elect a leader who thinks that strength cannot include diplomacy or international cooperation? Why did you elect a man who did nothing except run away and hide on September 11? Most of all, I am terrified. I mean daily, I am afraid that I will not survive this. I am afraid that I will lose my husband, that I will never have children, that I will never grow old and watch the sunset in a backyard of my own. I am afraid that my career -- which should end with a triumphant and good-natured roast at a retirement party in 2035 -- will be cut short by an attack on me and my colleagues, as we sit sending emails and making phone calls one ordinary afternoon. Is your life at stake? Are you terrified? I don't think you are. I don't think you realize what you have done. And if anything happens to me or the people I love, I blame you. I wanted you to know that. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #466 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)