From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #454 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, November 8 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 454 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Raya O'Coal at CD Baby - NJC ["Marian Russell" ] Re: Re:I voted for Bush. (njc) ["Kakki" ] Re: Hello ["Wallykai" ] Re: ["FredNow" ] Re; ivoted for bush respond for john c. ["dfrench" ] Re: Thanks :) ["Wallykai" ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" - now "TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now [] Re: Re:I voted for Bush. (njc) [Deb Messling ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" - now "TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now [Cathe] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" - now "TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now [] Re: I voted for Bush. (njc) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" - now "TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now [] Re: Kerry/Heinz NJC PC [Jerry Notaro ] (NJC) Saw a funny thing today (was "to dsk in nyc NJC") [Lori Fye ] Detroit [Michaelpaz@aol.com] Re: New Jonifest dates ["Donna Binkley" ] Re: there's something to be said NJC [dsk ] Re: New Jonifest dates [Jerry Notaro ] the MAP (was to dsk in nyc) NJC [dsk ] Re: Kerry/Heinz now bullies NJC [dsk ] Re: Kerry/Heinz NJC PC [dsk ] TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now [N] Re: Re:I voted for Bush. (njc) [Catherine McKay ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" - now "TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now [Cath] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" - now "TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now [Cath] Re: Re:I voted for Bush. (njc) [Smurfycopy@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 04:05:49 -0500 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Raya O'Coal at CD Baby - NJC My beautiful Austrian friend, Raya O'Coal, has made her latest CD entitled "Hoam" available at CD Baby: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/rayaocoal Raya O'Coal is the most sensitive and creative person I have ever met. Her music is gorgeous, unusual, surprising, and powerful, and your support will help her to continue to bring her unique musical beauty into the world. Please have a listen, buy her album, and tell your friends!!! Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 01:10:19 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Re:I voted for Bush. (njc) John, For what it is worth, I can never know your struggles but as one who is a Christian (but in no way a fundamentalist) and on the right politically, I absolutely believe you should have full legal civil rights. I also know that not all of the states have the same protections. California was one of the first states over ten years ago to pass a law against sexual orientation discrimination and my law firm was instrumental in pushing forward and writing that law. The right to gay marriage was voted down in California a few years later. Many gays I talked to also opposed it at the time for their own reasons and preferred to have the right to civil unions, which is now the law here. The governor (Arnold) recently strengthened these laws so that all employers in the state must provide the same level of benefits to gays and their partners. There are many high profile Republicans such as Arnold, Guiliani and even Cheney who support gay rights. Even Bush declared in an interview excerpted in the NY Times a few weeks ago that he supported civil unions and that those who opposed them were wrong. I also believe Bush was very wrong in pushing for a constitutional amendment on marriage. In the mid-90s during the Clinton administration it became law that Federal employees or employees of Federal contractors or companies who receive Federal funds may not discriminate against gays in employment. If those translators were fired because they were gay, those who fired them are in violation of Federal law and should be held accountable and those fired should be awarded damages for their wrongful termination. There should be a Federal law that bans such discrimination for all employees but it appears to have been left up to the states for now. In a recent poll the majority of Americans stated that they believed in the right to civil unions for gays. The issue that some people have with calling it a right to marry is that they believe that those religions or churches who refuse to marry gays will face prosecution, fines or imprisonment and be shut down for violating Federal discrimination laws if the right to marry is deemed a constitutional right. The right to a particular religious belief or practice and the rights of gays are marry then are at loggerheads in this respect and this makes the battles more entrenched. I believe in constitutional rights for all and I hope that this battle is somehow soon resolved. Kakki - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:25:55 +0100 From: "Wallykai" Subject: Re: Hello :)) [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of Price.com] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:25:55 +0100 From: "FredNow" Subject: Re: :)) [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of Price.com] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 00:15:37 -1000 From: "dfrench" Subject: Re; ivoted for bush respond for john c. thanks john for alerting me to your post off list, im sorry as i said in my reply that i sometimes skim over looooooooooonnnng posts, not to infer that what you were saying wasnt important.... i am quite at a loss for words at he moment..............hang on .................ok i see that you write beautifully with a sincere passion for what you believe......although since you dont know me i would say that some of your presumptions are a bit presklumptuous and your assumptions are a bit asklumptimous as gw may say but i kind of understand your frustration .........im the sane way sometimes ...i get to a point that i need to just run away. i run up, the trail about 2 miles up the mountain behind my house thru forest and theres nothing but trees and nature and bushies(oops) and when i reach the top out of breath theres nothing else that matters but being there at that moment and everything else ,is so insignificant ,all the bullshit and crap that i./we have to deal with doesnt matter and when i come down i m kind of more REAL as to what matters inside and what for me its quite like when you re on the downside of an acid trip and everything is COOL and Easy i try not to dwell on negative things ..its difficult sometimes ...i try to control my dreams and when i get to somewhere i dont want to be i go back to my original thought and analyize the progression as to how and why and what made my mind go in that direction........... i have a trick that i play on myself when i have a train of thought thati want to stop and thats thaBOMB like one of those black bowling balls with a fuse and i throw it at the thought and BOOM it goes away and i can move on to ssomething else...all in a dream or trying to get there .how many bombs per night?..depends on the shit of the day (SOTD).i prefer to make the best of the shit i got going on as meager as it may seem to another but its MY shit and i keep it and treasure it and it dont matter what anyone else thinks of it cuz i dont care wat they think ...its mine ...i am ME .......i once got so flustered from expectations from family, friends job, taxes ,bills, flat tires that i swam out... yes just started swimming OUT im not sure how far i got im thinking less than a mile ...i was out there ........deep water ..........turned around and swam back.......swimming back has such a more beautiful view ,from out there you can see the panorama of the mountains and the sky without all the shit in the way....as opposed to swimming out theres nothing but horizon........being there was real...no bs ..you are who you are and nothing else matters ...not what others think of you ..not what you were supposed to do ....not anything but YOU and your ass in the deep water potential shark bait or other fish fodder........then realize how insignificant all the head trips were. i guess what im trying to say is that in the scope of life for me is not what other people ,government..,things ,politics ,or how the streets are paved its what makes you happy that you should go for and not get hung up frowning because ............that has nothing to do with the price of fish.(tic) aloha and lets enjoy life while we can , dfrench ....and btw i agree that the list will eventually turn to all things JONI...luv ya john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 11:40:40 +0100 From: "FredNow" Subject: Re: Hi :) [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of Price.cpl] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 11:40:39 +0100 From: "Wallykai" Subject: Re: Thanks :) :) [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of Joke.cpl] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 03:14:56 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" - now "TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now Thank you very much, Mark.:) Wow. Poor Joni. Recording an album with more than half of it's songs being love songs to Donald or Donald-related songs and even one song by Donald about their love, while they're still in love - at least up to 2000 - then him not only leaving her, but leaving her with an album that is a celebration of their love, now a souvenir, and in way, a mocking it's own creator souvenir...My oh my...I wonder if Joni is even able to listen to it...and in case she listens to it every now then, i wonder what she's going through...No wonder BSN was the result...And maybe, dare i say, maybe that's one of the reasons she quited writting lyrics...I mean, she "took a risk" of recording a sort of an "WTRF" album again (in the sense that most of the lyrics there are "I found my everlasting love at last" kind of lyrics), and giving love a second chance not only in real life terms but in recording an album such as TTT terms, letting the whole world know...I mean, if something like that happened to me, i'd be so scared of ever writting a love lyric again...And in the Fresh Air interview she says that she doesn't want to write about social issues again...Oh no, no, no...Maybe she's lost all faith in love...Maybe TTT that she believed would be her "Solid Love" is now her "Car On A Hill"...I for one, find it not only sad, and ironic, and bitter, but very very scary... Nuriel Mark or Travis wrote: Nuriel Tobias wrote: > And if don't mind - could you please help me learn another fact that > i know nothing about? Was TTT recorded (not written) while Joni and > Donald were together or after they broke up? It's been bothering me > for some time now, and i'm really interested in finding the answer. > I'll be waiting to hear from you. > > Thanks again, > > Nuri Checking the archives in the JMDL library I see that TTT was released in 1998. There are articles about Joni's exhibit at the Mendel Art Gallery in Saskatoon in 2000 that mention her boyfriend, Donald Freed. So I would say she and Donald were still an item whe TTT was recorded. Mark Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 06:51:00 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Re:I voted for Bush. (njc) I've never heard this concern expressed and it strikes me as absurd. Under the first amendment, churches are free to marry whom they choose and refuse whom they choose. Many rabbis will not marry an interfaith couple, for example. The fact that I have a constitutional right to marry someone outside of my faith doesn't mean that a church can be prosecuted for refusing to do it. For myself, I wish that civil unions were all the law recognized for EVERYBODY. Let "marriage" be a religious concept that individual churches can define as they wish. That's the practical reality, anyway. The legal benefits and obligations I incurred upon my "marriage" resulted from the papers filed with the state, not from the mumbo-jumbo recited at my "marriage" ceremony. The state doesn't care about the religious content of my ceremony, whether we promise to observe a particular faith, whether we "value" marriage seriously, whether we plan to have children, or even whether we promise to stay married forever. Funny how the state is suddenly supposed to care about all these "values" only when gay people are concerned. At 01:10 AM 11/8/2004 -0800, you wrote: >The issue that some people have with calling it a right to marry is >that they believe that those religions or churches who refuse to marry gays >will face prosecution, fines or imprisonment and be shut down for violating >Federal discrimination laws if the right to marry is deemed a constitutional >right. The right to a particular religious belief or practice and the >rights of gays are marry then are at loggerheads in this respect and this >makes the battles more entrenched. >---- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 06:54:02 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" - now "TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Thank you very much, Mark.:) > Wow. Poor Joni. Recording an album with more than > half of it's songs being love songs to Donald or > Donald-related songs and even one song by Donald > about their love, while they're still in love - at > least up to 2000 - then him not only leaving her, > but leaving her with an album that is a celebration > of their love, now a souvenir, and in way, a mocking > it's own creator souvenir...My oh my... How do you know he left her? She might have been the one to end it - or it could have been mutual. You never know. I wonder if > Joni is even able to listen to it...and in case she > listens to it every now then, i wonder what she's > going through... I'm sure I've read the Joni never listens to her own stuff once it's out there. Don't know if that's true, but listening to yourself is kind of strange anyway. I don't think I'd want to do it! No wonder BSN was the result...And > maybe, dare i say, maybe that's one of the reasons > she quited writting lyrics...I mean, she "took a > risk" of recording a sort of an "WTRF" album again > (in the sense that most of the lyrics there are "I > found my everlasting love at last" kind of lyrics), > and giving love a second chance not only in real > life terms but in recording an album such as TTT > terms, letting the whole world know...I mean, if > something like that happened t! > o me, i'd > be so scared of ever writting a love lyric > again...And in the Fresh Air interview she says that > she doesn't want to write about social issues > again...Oh no, no, no...Maybe she's lost all faith > in love...Maybe TTT that she believed would be her > "Solid Love" is now her "Car On A Hill"...I for one, > find it not only sad, and ironic, and bitter, but > very very scary... > She has said that she started writing when she lost her daughter and stopped when she found her again. The timelines are right. I think she's a lot braver in love than most of us are and that she wouldn't give up that easily. There may be another man in her life or there may not be. Sometimes being alone, even if it's only for a short while, can be the most liberating experience. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:37:34 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" - now "TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now Okay, this sounds so gossipy, but I recall Joni saying that they broke up on September 11, 2001, and that she broke it off after Donald accused her of repeating herself. At 06:54 AM 11/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >How do you know he left her? She might have been the >one to end it - or it could have been mutual. You >never know. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 09:03:08 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: I voted for Bush. (njc) Kakki's is not the only voice of reason from someone who describes themselves as from the right. Even among gays themselves there are the Log Cabin Republicans. As a long time gay activist I have often told my fellow GLBT that the straight people are our greatest allies (especially those like Kakki) , not the extremists who may be gay. Deb Shea and Kakki AGREE on this issue. What more can be said????? Jerry > John, > > For what it is worth, I can never know your struggles but as one who is a > Christian (but in no way a fundamentalist) and on the right politically, I > absolutely believe you should have full legal civil rights. I also know > that not all of the states have the same protections. California was one of > the first states over ten years ago to pass a law against sexual orientation > discrimination and my law firm was instrumental in pushing forward and > writing that law. The right to gay marriage was voted down in California a > few years later. Many gays I talked to also opposed it at the time for their > own reasons and preferred to have the right to civil unions, which is now > the law here. The governor (Arnold) recently strengthened these laws so > that all employers in the state must provide the same level of benefits to > gays and their partners. There are many high profile Republicans such as > Arnold, Guiliani and even Cheney who support gay rights. Even Bush declared > in an interview excerpted in the NY Times a few weeks ago that he supported > civil unions and that those who opposed them were wrong. I also believe > Bush was very wrong in pushing for a constitutional amendment on marriage. > In the mid-90s during the Clinton administration it became law that Federal > employees or employees of Federal contractors or companies who receive > Federal funds may not discriminate against gays in employment. If those > translators were fired because they were gay, those who fired them are in > violation of Federal law and should be held accountable and those fired > should be awarded damages for their wrongful termination. There should be a > Federal law that bans such discrimination for all employees but it appears > to have been left up to the states for now. In a recent poll the majority > of Americans stated that they believed in the right to civil unions for > gays. The issue that some people have with calling it a right to marry is > that they believe that those religions or churches who refuse to marry gays > will face prosecution, fines or imprisonment and be shut down for violating > Federal discrimination laws if the right to marry is deemed a constitutional > right. The right to a particular religious belief or practice and the > rights of gays are marry then are at loggerheads in this respect and this > makes the battles more entrenched. I believe in constitutional rights for > all and I hope that this battle is somehow soon resolved. > > Kakki > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 06:39:15 -0800 (PST) From: mags h Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" - now "TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now Donald Freed was in town this past summer performing with a group of local musicians in a neighbourhood venue. I met him and had a little chat about 'things'. Suffice to say, he wasnt willing to engage in any conversation of the Joni kind. Mags. Deb Messling wrote: Okay, this sounds so gossipy, but I recall Joni saying that they broke up on September 11, 2001, and that she broke it off after Donald accused her of repeating herself. At 06:54 AM 11/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >How do you know he left her? She might have been the >one to end it - or it could have been mutual. You >never know. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----- what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? - ----- Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 09:46:33 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Kerry/Heinz NJC PC Marcel's problem was not his political beliefs, but that he was WHACKO! Jerry > Debra wrote: > >> It leads me to have very little patience with the people who kept >> quiet about all that even after Marcel's private behavior became public >> (and a look at his emails around Sept 11, 2001 shows what he's made of), >> and who whine about how THEY are treated here now, which comes nowhere >> near the hatefulness Marcel spewed out to some people here. > > And that's about the third or fourth time you've referred to me without > mentioning me by name and it indicates that you do associate people's > political beliefs here with your experience. I have never abused you or > EVER encouraged any abuse of you so my right to "whine" or protest the > treatment of people with differing political views is not pre-empted because > you want to group all who were silent or a Republican as supporting Marcel. > I wrote to you a long time ago privately when you said you were being abused > and you did not reveal for a long time who that person was. I told you that > I too had been abused horribly in private email for over a year by an > individual on the list along with other people. That person was not only > supported openly by people who are still here on the the list, he was also > actively goaded to keep abusing me. I was scared shitless of this person. > He was finally removed from the list but comes back here from time to time > under different names. One reason I stayed silent in your situation was > because I did not want to relive my own experience and I felt it was up to > the listowner and the people who advise him to deal with your private > situation. Another reason I stayed silent is because I was on another list > at the time where people fighting with each other ended up in a lawsuit for > slander and libel and everyone subscribed to that list, whether they ever > posted or not (and I had never posted on that list), were named in the > complaint. The complaint was also served to me at my law firm which was > another nightmare and I received numerous emails from the person suing at my > work email (which is monitored by my employer). Add to that all the personal > challenges I have gone through the past six years which I do not care to > share with the list. I am very sorry for you or anyone who is abused in > private or public email because I have had that experience myself. But > please, people like myself have reasons sometimes for not getting involved. > Many of my friends on this list have privately expressed their thoughts that > I have been abused here at times but they don't take up for me publically > here and I don't expect them to or hold that against them. It shouldn't > descend into "well you are in that camp so you deserve it" without knowing > more about a person's own personal struggles. > > I'm sorry to have to write this but I am tired of being singled out by > inference. > > Kakki > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:22:05 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: (NJC) Saw a funny thing today (was "to dsk in nyc NJC") dfrench wrote: > id brush off the dust and it would reveal all the pins, each one had a teeny > tiny little flag This reminds me that I saw something funny on the way into work today: a car was parked in the public garage and it's sporting not only one of those oval stickers that says "GB" but it also has a flag, the type you put between your car's window frame and window, the type that became so popular after 9/11, except this one is blue and says "ENGLAND"!! I had to chuckle. How great it was to see that! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:31:56 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: "Ray", the movie: recommended, njc > Yo, I saw the new film, "Ray" and loved it. It didn't pull any punches and > although it took a few liberties ('Hit the Road Jack' wasn't written by Mr. > Charles), its aim is true. > I thought it was awfully long and a little heavy on the psychological interpretations (all that water on the floor and tinkling bottles in the trees). That said, Jamie Foxx is wonderfully restrained in his performance and the music is great! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:53:36 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Kate's Joni Birthday gig! Hi Kate, Just wanted to say "break a leg" to you and all of your performers in tonight's Tribute show. I've put on the ruby slippers and said "There's no place like Santa Barbara" over & over, but to no avail - I remain stuck in redneckville. But I'll be there in spirit, and I look forward to your report! Bob Thanks Bob, We had our most successful turnout ever last night! I've included the set list below although most of the names won't be that familiar to anyone. Tom Rush was his amazing self. So talented & down to earth & funny. He told some stories about meeting Joni at the Chessmate when he was performing & she gave him that tape of her songs. He told another story about hearing her at the Bread & Roses event. He was warming up in the dressing room getting ready to follow some marching band & feeling quite depressed about it. Next door he heard BB King teaching Joni one of his songs- the Thrill is Gone. I can't do his story justice but he said where is a tape recorder when you need one. Anyway, we did a rousing alternative finale version of Woodstock that was lots of fun. That song just keeps evolving for me. We raised lots of money for Keep the Beat, the organization I do these tributes for that helps to keep music in our public elementary schools. Several of the very talented performers are also very talented teachers- a couple of them music teachers so it is a very poignant thing. We auctioned off a poster that Jeff created & Tom Rush signed. A great night & I'm hoping a nice introduction to Tom to our music community as he's a part time resident. Off to the day job now! Kate Album Song Performers Instruments 1) Song to a Seagull Dawn Treader Pat Milliken & Anita Bayley Guitar & Vox 2) Cactus Tree Pat Milliken Guitar 3) Clouds I Don't Know Where I Stand Vince Chafin & Zach Hood Guitar, Flute & Vox 4) I Think I Understand Joyce Hielig & Jack Lee Piano, Guitar & Vox 5) That Song About the Midway Kate Bennett & Cinder Jean 2 Guitars & 2 Vox 6) Chelsea Morning Julie Lewis, Pat Milliken, Debra Farris & Laura Sapia Guitar & 3 Vox 7) Ladies of the Canyon For Free Jennifer Terran Piano & Vox 8) Woodstock Brad Bayley Guitar & Vox 9) Circle Game Tom Rush Guitar & Vox 10) Urge for Going Tom Rush Guitar & Vox 11) The Priest Robert Brown, Lisa Starr & John Downs 2 Guitars & 3 Vox 12) Morning Morgantown Bruce Goldish Guitar & Vox 13) Blue River Kirstin Candy Piano & Vox 14) California Delilah Poupore Guitar & Vox 15) All I Want Marcella & George Quirin Guitar & Vox 16) A Case of You Donna O'Connor Guitar & Vox 17) Court & Spark Twisted Kasey Lloyd & Gordon Morrel 2 Vox 18) Help Me Cinder Jean, Vince Chafin, Karen Thurber & Kate Bennett Guitar, Bass & 3 Vox 19) Raised on Robbery Debra Farris, Laura Sapia, Julie Lewis, Michael Adcock & David Cowan 2 Guitars, Bass, & 3 Vox 20) Hejira Hejira Kate Price, Hans Betzholtz, Rick Sweeney & Vince Chafin Guitar, Bass, Percussion, & Vox 21) Mingus Goodbye Pork Pie Hat Karen Thurber Guitar & Vox 22) The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines Jill Keller, Vince Chafin, William Pasley, & Zack Hood Bass, Sax, Percussion & Vox 23) Wild Things Run Fast Be Cool Laura Hout & Chris Judge Guitar & Vox 24) Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm The Beat of Black Wings David Cowan & Andy Webb 2 Guitars & Vox 25) FINALE Woodstock- reprise Kate & All 26) Both Sides Now Debra & All 27) Big Yellow Taxi Debra & All ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:21:23 EST From: Michaelpaz@aol.com Subject: Detroit Hi Guys I am in Detroit land of my birth. How surreal is this? My brother is hanging in there but not good. I will be here as long as it takes. I had dinner with my sister and her husband and daugther and her husband last night and it was great to be with them. Hope all is well with everyone. I will try to check in as the week goes by. My aol address is the hot one for now but I can be contacted by cell if you have it. Love Paz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 13:17:48 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: New Jonifest dates Hi Laurent, 13th-15th is fine with me, thanks for doing this. db >>> Emiliano 11/5/2004 12:38:01 PM >>> Hi, Laurent! I guess there's no problem for me about the exact dates in August. I mean: I'm free from work for the entire month Anyway, I'd prefer avoiding to drive long distance in 15th (due to heavy traffic), but that's no serious problem for my part. Many thanks for caring about this!!! Have a Wonderful time! Yours: Emiliano - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Laurent Olszer" ... > Hi > > The middle of august seems more convenient for some people. > Since we haven't really set the dates officially yet, would you be OK for > august 13-15? > > Laurent This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:54:26 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: there's something to be said NJC mags h wrote: > > ... I know it was a > time of great confusion for me, and I apologise to you Debra for not > speaking then. I just couldnt, suffice to say. > > I think it is very brave of you to tell your tale; many who suffer > from abuse are silenced by fear of coming forward, fear of > repercussions. That's not the whole picture anyway. And we know it. > And therein lies our power. Thanks, Mags. There's no need, though, for you or anyone else to do any apologizing. It was a very confusing situation for everyone. My mentioning of that time wasn't an attempt to seek support or get any comment or make anyone feel bad. It was just a response to the "right-wing thinking = Marcel's behavior" idea. Even though it was mildly stated as a general observation, I've never thought that and I wanted to clarify that, which then meant talking about past events. As far as being brave, part of it is a big sister thing, and knowing other people were also having a rough time and knowing that if I just left the list, I would be out of harm's way but the situation would continue. Plus, if I'd left I would have missed out on all the GOOD stuff here, and there's always been way more of that than the other stuff, so it was to my advantage to stay if I could. The other, more important, thing is that I had plenty of support via private emails and on list from a couple of friends as dogged about resolving the situation as I was. Without that support, for which I continue to be grateful, I probably never would have said anything and just taken option A, leaving. A few of us at the same time said "enough already" and things changed. I doubt if such a long-term ongoing situation would ever develop here again, and that's a very good thing. It doesn't mean there won't be tussles once in a while and they can be unpleasant but they usually end quickly. > Grow from the lessons > learned. Yes, and one of them is that no matter how independent a person may be, most things get done by people working together. More generally, I never understood before why whistleblowers would have such a rough time when they're just "doing the right thing" or how abuse is allowed to happen by so many decent people. (What happened here on the list is nowhere near what can happen in real-life abusive situations; I never felt that level of personal danger! and I hope no one thinks that's what I'm implying.) From an analytical point of view, it's interesting how the dynamics of abuse are similar even when particular situations are different. Abuse is evil, no matter where it's happening. > Abuse. No excuse. > > would make a great bumper sticker, n'est-ce pas? I like it. Strong with a poetic flair. Kinda like you, yes? Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:56:54 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: New Jonifest dates Laurent, Those days will work for me, also. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:00:33 -0500 From: dsk Subject: the MAP (was to dsk in nyc) NJC dfrench wrote: > > ... there were a total of 164 pins. although i took the map down just before > summer this year it was quite the conversation peice on occaision. if > someone asked 'whats that map with all the pins for' id say these people and > i have something deeply in common, ... Dean, this map sounds beautiful! It's so sweet. Are there any photos of it that you could share? Or must we imagine it from what you've written? Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:26:40 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Kerry/Heinz now bullies NJC Catherine McKay wrote: > > ... One thing about > bullies is that it's never their fault. It's always > someone else's fault, most often their wife or their > kid, or maybe their boss, a co-worker, their mother or > sister, or maybe the next-door neighbour but, failing > that, anyone who happens to be around at the time. ... > > if *everyone > in the world* is against you, maybe you should just > have a good look at yourself?) ... > And the ones who are capable of > charming some people while bullying and threatening > others are most likely narcissists - I'm not sure what that behavior is called. I consider it evil. It's amazing to me how some people see right through the charming surface and other people fall for it completely. Look at all the people who voted for Bush this time! Catherine, I hope you're feeling free of the bully in your life. It's gotta be tough when he's the father of your children. More difficult than I can imagine. > all they can see > is themselves and what they see is always right, never > wrong. Pathetic and sad, but ultimately we're > responsible for ourselves and our own sanity. Very true. One of the first lessons of therapy is that the only person you can change is yourself. The hope is that once a person changes, everyone in their life ends up changing in response. I don't know how often that second part happens, but in theory it sounds good. The first lesson is the most important one, and the hardest!, because it's so much easier (but not at all effective) to try to "fix" everyone else. Life truly is for learning. It ain't easy. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:38:08 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Kerry/Heinz NJC PC Kakki wrote: > > And that's about the third or fourth time you've referred to me without > mentioning me by name and it indicates that you do associate people's > political beliefs here with your experience. Well, no. You can continue to believe that if you wish, but it's just not true. You're not the only Republican here! > But please, people like myself have reasons sometimes for not getting involved. Okay. I hear you. Truce. (But I'll still be an annoying Democrat -- I can't change that!) Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:21:51 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now Catherine said  "How do you know he left her? She might have been the one to end it - or it could have been mutual. You never know." Deb replied  "Okay, this sounds so gossipy, but I recall Joni saying that they broke up on September 11, 2001, and that she broke it off after Donald accused her of repeating herself." First of all  Deb, the Bible is gossip too, so please feel very unguilty:) My take? A man who accuses a woman of repeating herself is a coward who don't have the guts to break up and simply awaits the woman to do it for him, so this time, I'm happy to find out, Joni gave up the wrong infant for the very right reasons. Back then lots of Donald-related threads were going 'round here, and I got the impression that he's a charming Gentleman that teaches kids poetry. All I can say is  welcome to the "Lucky Girl" list, you idiot. He was loved by one of the most amazing women on earth, and this "repeating herself" thingWell, what can I say? Ok  no mercy here  I think this man was only basking in Joni's spotlight and when she, as we all know "gets that crazy feeling" forgot that it's "trouble again", and he managed to fool her. (and don't anyone even think of posting and telling me that no one can fool Joni, thank you very much). As I see it he spotted "the chance" at one of her weakest and lonesome periods. I recall a post regarding the Joni all star Tribute where the description of a "meaningless" event was that slides or clips of Joni were shown on the screen, and when the young Joni photos were screened he started sobbing and she hugged him to calm his "e(my ass)motiones". That "meaningless" scene alone was good enough for my red alert lights to go flashing. That man should've gotten the Oscar for his acting, and Myrtle, I'm afraid, knew exactly what she was talking about when she adviced her daughter to "snap out of it!". I now have no doubt as to what drove Joni to record BSN. As I see it now, it's Joni's score settling with LOVE, and maybe i'm beginning to loose my sight, but I don't see too many love songs on Travelogue either. I wrote  "I wonder if Joni is even able to listen to TTT...and in case she listens to it every now and then, i wonder what she's going through..." Catherine then answered - "I'm sure I've read the Joni never listens to her own stuff once it's out there. Don't know if that's true, but listening to yourself is kind of strange anyway. I don't think I'd want to do it!" Yes, I also read that, Catherine, though I know lots of other musicians that do listen to their own music on daily basis. Both ways seem strange to me, but let me rephrase my question  "I wonder if Joni hasn't burned TTT and all it's Donald songs and flashed the ashes down the toilet". One of her best albums, imho, I think that "Love puts on a new face" is Joni's best love song, imho again, words can't describe what I'm going through when I hear it, when it comes to the lyric "I miss your touch and your lips so much I long for our next embrace" I always faint for surely even a deaf man would notice the pure love nearly breaking Joni's voice into tears in that song  but if that's the case, hey, I'm moving back to "underneath the streetlight" for Larry Klein suddenly seems to me a knight in a shining armor! So yes, Catherine, maybe she doesn't listen to her own albums, but I do, and I dread the next time I'll play TTT and you bet I'll be "repeating" it over and over again, pretending that all the Donald songs were about her cat, but 'Lead Balloon'! Then Catherine wrote  "She has said that she started writing when she lost her daughter and stopped when she found her again". Before I met my man I used to constantly write love songs. The day I met him  I stopped. My advice? Don't let "if music be the food of love" turn into "if love be the food of music". There's a dark spell in it. Catherine wrote  "I think she's a lot braver in love than most of us are and that she wouldn't give up that easily. There may be another man in her life or there may not be. Sometimes being alone, even if it's only for a short while, can be the most liberating experience." Catherine, I've just called 911! Love, Nuriel Catherine McKay wrote:--- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Thank you very much, Mark.:) > Wow. Poor Joni. Recording an album with more than > half of it's songs being love songs to Donald or > Donald-related songs and even one song by Donald > about their love, while they're still in love - at > least up to 2000 - then him not only leaving her, > but leaving her with an album that is a celebration > of their love, now a souvenir, and in way, a mocking > it's own creator souvenir...My oh my... How do you know he left her? She might have been the one to end it - or it could have been mutual. You never know. I wonder if > Joni is even able to listen to it...and in case she > listens to it every now then, i wonder what she's > going through... I'm sure I've read the Joni never listens to her own stuff once it's out there. Don't know if that's true, but listening to yourself is kind of strange anyway. I don't think I'd want to do it! No wonder BSN was the result...And > maybe, dare i say, maybe that's one of the reasons > she quited writting lyrics...I mean, she "took a > risk" of recording a sort of an "WTRF" album again > (in the sense that most of the lyrics there are "I > found my everlasting love at last" kind of lyrics), > and giving love a second chance not only in real > life terms but in recording an album such as TTT > terms, letting the whole world know...I mean, if > something like that happened t! > o me, i'd > be so scared of ever writting a love lyric > again...And in the Fresh Air interview she says that > she doesn't want to write about social issues > again...Oh no, no, no...Maybe she's lost all faith > in love...Maybe TTT that she believed would be her > "Solid Love" is now her "Car On A Hill"...I for one, > find it not only sad, and ironic, and bitter, but > very very scary... > She has said that she started writing when she lost her daughter and stopped when she found her again. The timelines are right. I think she's a lot braver in love than most of us are and that she wouldn't give up that easily. There may be another man in her life or there may not be. Sometimes being alone, even if it's only for a short while, can be the most liberating experience. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:45:19 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Re:I voted for Bush. (njc) --- Deb Messling wrote: > I've never heard this concern expressed and it > strikes me as absurd. Under > the first amendment, churches are free to marry whom > they choose and refuse > whom they choose. Many rabbis will not marry an > interfaith couple, for > example. The fact that I have a constitutional > right to marry someone > outside of my faith doesn't mean that a church can > be prosecuted for > refusing to do it. > > For myself, I wish that civil unions were all the > law recognized for > EVERYBODY. Let "marriage" be a religious concept > that individual churches > can define as they wish. That's the practical > reality, anyway. The legal > benefits and obligations I incurred upon my > "marriage" resulted from the > papers filed with the state, not from the > mumbo-jumbo recited at my > "marriage" ceremony. The state doesn't care about > the religious content of > my ceremony, whether we promise to observe a > particular faith, whether we > "value" marriage seriously, whether we plan to have > children, or even > whether we promise to stay married forever. Funny > how the state is > suddenly supposed to care about all these "values" > only when gay people are > concerned. Deb, you are a woman after my own heart. I completely agree with this. The concept of marriage is a crock, imo. From a legal point of view, it's nothing more than a contract between two people. Their sex or sexual orientation has nothing to do with it. The religious thing is mumbo jumbo to some and a sacred ceremony to others but, imo, if any kind of god is going to bless the union, having a priest, minister, rabbi or other religious officiant say a few words about it doesn't make it any more blessed than if the two people made some kind of vow to one another. And the whole wedding thing has just got to go. They're generally icky, overdone things anyway. I just know that my daughter is going to demand one of those fairytale weddings one of these days and that will be god's/fate's/irony's way of getting back at me, but it's OK - I can take a joke. I've already given my kids notice that eloping or just plain living together has its advantages, especially when they consider all the money they'll have left after NOT doing the icky wedding thing. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:48:07 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" - now "TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now --- Deb Messling wrote: > Okay, this sounds so gossipy, but I recall Joni > saying that they broke up > on September 11, 2001, and that she broke it off > after Donald accused her > of repeating herself. > > LOL - now that you mention it... What a silly reason to break things off but I guess if they had arrived at that point after -what?- a few years together (?), imagine them after twenty years. It was probably a good thing. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:52:05 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" - now "TTT - Joni's risk in recording it then and having to deal with it now --- mags h wrote: > Donald Freed was in town this past summer performing > with a group of local musicians in a neighbourhood > venue. I met him and had a little chat about > 'things'. Suffice to say, he wasnt willing to engage > in any conversation of the Joni kind. > That's good to hear. Joni does seem to find gentlemen, doesn't she, and not the kiss-and-tell kind. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:23:31 EST From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re:I voted for Bush. (njc) Catherine McKay writes: > The concept of marriage is a crock, > imo. > Catherine, you BEAST! And just as I was beginning to let myself dream! I'll just have to listen to the words of your wicked talented, long-lost daughter Nellie: I wanna get married Yes, I need a spouse I want a nice Leave it to Beaverish Golden retriever and a little white house I wanna get married I need to cook meals I wanna pack you cute little lunches For my Brady bunches Then read Danielle Steele I wanna escape This rat race I've created I'm feelin' enervated I don't care if I make it I just want to bake a sugar cake for you To take to work in the morn And I'll stay home cleaning the dishes And keeping your wishes all warm I wanna get married That's why I was born I wanna partake in bake sales for the classroom I wanna hear the sweet tune Of Sally's little vroom-vroom As she zooms around my broom As I exhume the gloom Of my shallow life I wanna be simple and honest and dimpled 'cause I am your wife I will never tarry I'm not even torn I wanna get married That's why I was born ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #454 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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