From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #453 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, November 8 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 453 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: I voted for Bush. NJC [dsk ] And some people think WE argue! NJC [dsk ] not a train station, Nuri ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Joni Birthday Special Monday On Internet Radio [jrrose ] Re: Happy Birthday! ["mackoliver" ] to dsk in nyc NJC ["dfrench" ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Nuriel Tobias ] "Ray", the movie: recommended, njc [] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Buon Compleanno (The Hebrew Version) [Nuriel Tobias ] Happy Birthday, Joni [] there's something to be said NJC [mags h ] Happy Birthday, Joni! [Lori Fye ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Catherine McKay ] Re: Kerry/Heinz now bullies NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" ["Mark or Travis" ] jonis birthday ["dfrench" ] roland help njc ["dfrench" ] Re: Thanks :) ["FredNow" ] Re: Thanks :) ["Wallykai" ] Re: Kerry/Heinz NJC PC ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:29:07 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: I voted for Bush. NJC John Calimee wrote: > > The equal protection clause isn't a liberal thing or conservative thing. It > is the Constitution. And all laws should be subject to examination in that > light. John, Excellent post, in every way! Thank you. I especially like your argument regarding the above. And appreciate greatly the sensitivity and kindness in the rest of your message. I can imagine the fear you would now feel, and I appreciate your openness in explaining it all so clearly. And your comment about Joni made me laugh, oh, yeah, I can see her stomping around and fuming, smoking up a storm and being generally overly dramatic and full of justified anger... LOL! Peace to us all. Debra Shea, in NYC ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:51:34 -0500 From: dsk Subject: And some people think WE argue! NJC You want to see a good discussion? Watch Bill Maher's latest "Real Time" show on HBO to see some heavy duty arguing! They keep to the issues for the most part and the heat that's generated is more intense and genuine than anything I've seen on tv for a long time. Much hotter than that show usually gets. It's funny that their discussion is so similar to what happens here, same phrases, like "he has a right to his opinion...", same conservative complaint about Michael Moore, that he "hates America..." Very interesting. The guests include another conservative I like listening to, Andrew Sullivan, even though I disagree with him about lots of things (he did vote for Kerry, though!), and an interview with Noam Chomsky, who I've never seen speak and have never read his books (I know, my leftie education is truly lacking), so it was interesting hearing his view about things such as the Iraq war (oil, power, influence). The show was first on last Friday night and is being repeated during the week. If anyone is intrigued and doesn't get HBO, let me know privately and I'll tape the next showing for you. Debra Shea, in NYC and heading for lurkerland... now that I've somewhat recuperated this weekend from the Tuesday disaster, time-consuming personal life calls. Carry on, everyone, with courage and good heart. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 16:39:42 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: not a train station, Nuri Nuri, That was a beautiful post. Marianne Nuri wrote: This is a non-political and njc post. No matter what dfrench wrote, i only hope she wasn't attacked in a way that would made her leave our list. Several years ago i wrote a post and got so scared after reading the responds to it, i instantly signed off the list. I wasn't angry, i didn't sign off as a protest. I simply felt unwanted and very scared and ashamed. After a year or so, i signed in back again, and ever that day i couldn't have been happier being with all of you once again. I don't know how many of us are members on other lists or message boards. I used to be, and couldn't believe my eyes when seeing how members drove other members out and couldn't care less, not to mention that insulting and humiliating posts were a regular thing on those lists and message boards. Surely this is not the case on our list, and i have nothing against debates, jc-wise or njc-wise. Sharon once told me, in a friendly and loving way that is, that there's something very naive in my writing. That made me smile. Do forgive me if what i'm to write next would sound naive or even silly. Friends - lets do our best not to drive any member out of here. Once one's "let me out of here!" post is reaches the list, while we may not even understand what went wrong, lets do our best to change one's mind from leaving. May this place be a home, and not a train station. I'm not even going to say that the thing that's binding us is Joni. I for one, have no explanetion for our brotherhood. Not all of us are lionhearted. I think we're all very sensetive, but some are of more sensetive in a way that they they're easly hurt or frightened, child-like. Some of us are witty and some of us are foolish. Some of us spend hours writing a post, while others spill their ideas in a flesh. Some of us are politicaly-correct and some of us write whatever they feel like writing. Some of us check the jmdl posts every now and then and some of us can't await the next post appearing in their inbox. Some of us are old. Some of us are young. Some of us are working 24/7, have families and lots of friends. Some of us are sitting alone in a room, no one's ringing, no one's knocking at the door, and their only hope, happiness, comfort and light in the dark is this place. Love you all, Nuri _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:34:01 -0600 From: jrrose Subject: Joni Birthday Special Monday On Internet Radio I'll be saluting Joni's birthday by playing lots of her music on this week's "Hidden Treasures" show. The show is broadcast tomorrow(and every Monday) from 12-4 PM CST at http://uicradio.ws/ . You can request your favorite songs by Joni by emailing me at rose60612@yahoo.com or calling 312-413-2191 during the show. I hope you can join me! John Rose Listen to "HIDDEN TREASURES OF ROCK 'N' ROLL", some of the best music you've never heard,every Monday on the net from 12-4PM CST at http://uicradio.pages.uic.edu/! ! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:13:28 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: Happy Birthday! Do we suppose our dear Joan ventures here? If so Joni Mitchell, I will have to add my sentiments to what has been written here. I find you genius and without your guidance my life would be much less than what it is now and the future much less safe. Thank you, and love from mack. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark or Travis" To: "JMDL" Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 1:33 PM Subject: Happy Birthday! > Joni, > I don't really think you lurk on this listserv. But I do think there are people in your orbit who > at least keep a finger on our collective pulse. So with that in mind, I would like to wish you all > the best as you begin yet another orbit around the sun. > > Through the years, I have turned to you for music of substance, quality and originality. From the > very first record to the most recent, you have *never* let me down. The last has always been as > fresh, provocative and beautiful as what came before. Thank you for voicing so many of my thoughts > and feelings so eloquently through the years. For me, nobody is your equal when it comes to > expressing in words and music what it is to be human. Your music has helped me to grow as a human > being in so many ways and pushed me into discovering many wonderful things that I might have missed > otherwise. Whatever road you choose to take and whatever life brings you, I hope it brings you joy, > fulfillment and peace of mind. > > Happy Birthday, Joni! > > Mark Scott > Shoreline Washington ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 12:35:35 -1000 From: "dfrench" Subject: to dsk in nyc NJC dsk you are too much, your writing skills are superb and your MEMORY is impressively brilliant. yes i am the guy who did the map thing , i guess it was around four years and four months ago when i posted 'a pin on some map, my vicarious thrill' when i put a map of the world up in my shop and asked if anyone wanted to play. the first to respond was kakki, dsk you were #22 and there were a total of 164 pins. although i took the map down just before summer this year it was quite the conversation peice on occaision. if someone asked 'whats that map with all the pins for' id say these people and i have something deeply in common, id brush off the dust and it would reveal all the pins, each one had a teeny tiny little flag with a number on it and that would reference to a log i kept of that person and a note on their comment, basically the town where they were at or in some cases were going to or commuted between. people think im weird but i know that already but im still happy wierdly...... there were two angels one for WB and the other for KG, some pins were connected as in a person in australia going to try to live in bali(?) ....... and two in love but apart one of which was in canada and the other just across the borderline in usa where their 'heart and soul' were i twisted a little heart in that connecting wire.... a pin for a tree in nz and nyc.......special pins for joni events with a little dab of orange paint on top ....... one fuzzy headed pin in the south which i expedited with super glue and cat hair....... there was a pin with a dancer on the flag (actually a teeny tiny plastic soldier painted pink) 'the melancholy tango dancer' as it were........ one with a gun on it because he liked to shoot TVs........a self proclaimed goddess (and btw thanks for that jpeg, pretty sexy).....many replies included a little bio, a thought or story of one sort or another, i replied off list to all of you with thanks... all beautiful people sharing or being funny.. ..i started to count specifics as for those who described themselves... 16 painters ...4 poets...4 writers...3 dancers....1 sculptor.....1 quiltist........2 librarians...1 calligrapher....9 musicians....1 fuzzy black headed musician.... 2 confused runaways... 8 whod rather be somewhere else......1 inconspicuous though beautiful and spectacular in heart and mind........1 brown hair blue eyed joni.....1 trying to catch up....1 spirit of the list.....wanderlust was mentioned 28 times........and i think im missing a few pages under there......did i make you say underwear? well anyway back then politics stepped in and the map became literally vicarious although i havnt posted from then til a few weeks ago but i read most of the digests. for anyone curious i dont hate anyone here , just the opposite i think this group is brilliant as they say in the uk. most of you have been hanging around my shop for almost four years and i consider you all friends aloha, dean french ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:47:59 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: "As far as I was concerned, Joni had written a song from the perspective of a middle-aged woman who was experiencing some of the crises that come with that age. I mean, do you by the same token think that Joni did time in the Magdalene Laundries?" Of course i didn't, Bob, and with all respect, it's a bit insulting even asking me that. Even if i had no idea of Joni's life-story and was "only" a "bit" familiar with her work, i'd never even imagine that "The Magdalene Laundries" is an autobigraphical song, nor do i play albums backwards and look for hidden messages from Hitler. When i first heard "Chinese Caf'" i instantly knew that Joni was singing about herself. Why? Instincts and a secret method my Grandmother taught me of recognising when a Joni song is autobigraphical. As for songs like the one's on HOSL, i'm sad to inform you that they never "seemed as her own experiences" to me. au contraire, my friend, i could easily tell that Joni was viewing other peoples lives while constantly making sure that she's keeping distance from what they are and what she is. In my mind there's always a big "look, it's them - not me" sign hanging from above when i hear those songs. (but that's another issue for another thread) When i asked about the "i was born and raised in N.Y city" i was misunderstood again, for i already knew the song wasn't autobiographical, i was just trying to understand who that "i" was, and your reply, and others, helped me out off my imagination's block. And if anyone thought that debates about Bush vs. Kerry are a mess - you should really get scared as hell once a Joni lyric debate starts - you go and tell them, Bob!:) OK. So - does anyone other than myself finds that "Win" and "Loose" are NOT the both sides of life at all? Nuri Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:20:08 -0500 From: Subject: "Ray", the movie: recommended, njc Yo, I saw the new film, "Ray" and loved it. It didn't pull any punches and although it took a few liberties ('Hit the Road Jack' wasn't written by Mr. Charles), its aim is true. I had hoped to learn about the gospel influence in his music (by example) but didn't. Sure, some characters were objecting the way he co-opted gospel but as an outsider to gospel, I sure didn't see what they were talking about. Anyway, if you'd like to see a bio-pic about an artist who cross-boundaries, a pianist who could play anything, a fine mimic, a man who did his part to nudge segregation out, a blind man who rose far above his limitations only to create his own roadblocks, a big life which ultimately serves as an inspirational story, see "Ray". All the best, Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:31:32 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Mark or Travis wrote: "I think Joni's choice of songs for 'Travelogue' had more to do with musicality and how the songs would lend themselves to reworking than what they said lyrically." I don't think so, though i totaly respect your point of view .Let's settle for a combination of what we both think, for only Joni knows the reasons behind choosing those songs. "The line 'my child's a stranger' was where she was when she wrote 'Chinese Cafe' and has nothing to do with the relationship she was developing with Kilauren at the time of recording the song for 'Travelogue'." And i think that Joni is a genius when it comes to taking the past and the future and turning them both into the present. "Joni had written all of the material for 'Taming the Tiger' before she and Kilauren were reunited." Thank you for making that clear, Mark. Like i said, i'm still learning the real facts behind Joni's work, and wasn't aware of that fact till now. And if don't mind - could you please help me learn another fact that i know nothing about? Was TTT recorded (not written) while Joni and Donald were together or after they broke up? It's been bothering me for some time now, and i'm really interested in finding the answer. I'll be waiting to hear from you. Thanks again, Nuri Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 17:00:22 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Buon Compleanno (The Hebrew Version) anginca@tin.it wrote: "Joni, Buon compleanno. Grazie per esistere. Con affetto Angela" now my turn... geveret joni, mazal tov, sheyhiyu lach rak chaim tovim, tamshichi leashen chofshi, simi al kulam katzutz, kulam mimeyle bakis hakatan shleach, elef neshikot, ima kvar lo choshevest shashirim shelach medakim, ve-al tasimi lev le ma she Bob Muller kotev, ki hoo kvar mvulbal mirov caverim, ma gam she hoo neged ishun, kulanu cholim alayich, srufim alayich, metim alayich, ve oy vaavoy lekulanu im lo haya lanu otach baolam haze. Titkashri matayshehoo, beseder? Yalla, motek, ani yotze lirkod im baali velharim kosit champania lichvodech. Shelach lanetzach, Nuriel p.s. bemida ve at lo mevina ivrit, al tikansi le panica, has ve shalom - gam li lakchu 20 vemashu shanim leahvin ma ze 'scooner'. Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 17:04:34 -0800 (PST) From: mags h Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Bob asked of Nuri <<>> and now moi: while Joni did not do time in the Magdalene Laundries, she was trapped against all odds in a society who shunned and shamed her for conceiving a child out of wedlock...(gotta love that word). I feel that her experience as a single mother in 1965 informs the strength, passion and emotionality of this song. in my most humble opinion of course. Good for Joni and Kilauren for rising above it all. I always thought it was incredibly brave of Joni to write and record the songs about Kilauren, and it is my hope that those songs of theirstory have soothed that terrible loss. bonne fete cher Joan Mags np: Venice, 2 m sessies, Netherlands - ----- what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? - ----- Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 20:33:26 -0500 From: Subject: Happy Birthday, Joni Thanks for all of the stories, collaborations, courage, and ideas. You may be the 2nd most influential songwriter of your generation but I'd rather listen to you than anyone. I don't know you personally and I won't try to. I don't need to. From this fan's perspective, you've delivered more varied and superlative work than any other writer of our generation. Lord knows this generation has been blessed with a rich constellation of talented writers but you are surely the brightest star. We love you though we don't stalk you. Okay so far? All the best, Lama Jim L'Hommedieu Covington, KY daily contributor to the JMDL since 1955 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:19:20 -0800 (PST) From: mags h Subject: there's something to be said NJC I've just read through the most recent digest and it is with great sadness and concern that I listen to Debra recount an experience of abuse that she suffered on this list a few years ago. I know it was a time of great confusion for me, and I apologise to you Debra for not speaking then. I just couldnt, suffice to say. I think it is very brave of you to tell your tale; many who suffer from abuse are silenced by fear of coming forward, fear of repercussions. That's not the whole picture anyway. And we know it. And therein lies our power. Stall tall with your head held high Debra. Grow from the lessons learned. Abuse. No excuse. would make a great bumper sticker, n'est-ce pas? Mags np: most appropriately, Movement IV, Compassion, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan ( Urdu) Mah Damba (Mali) The English Chamber Chorus (Latin) The Prayer Cycle, a choral symphony in nine movements... Jonathan Elias - ----- what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? - ----- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 21:34:51 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Happy Birthday, Joni! Hope you had a gorgeous day!! Thanks for ... well, for everything. Love, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 22:28:21 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > btw, Catherine, i read your other reply regarding > what went through your mind when you first heard the > song. Your interpetaion to what you heard back then > is lovely, and i mean it, honest, but i wonder - > when JONI MITCHELL tells you that "MY CHILD'S A > STRANGER, I BORE HER" - is'nt it plain to see that > "HER CHILD'S A STRANGER, SHE BORE HER"?!:)lol! > Sometimes were all getting a bit to analitic when it > comes to poetry. Sometime were all rushing to find > the deeper meaning instead of hearing what is simply > said. Maybe the only reason i instantly understood > that Joni is a mother, is, after all, the fact that > i always believd whatever she wrote as only a blind > fool Joni fan like me would. Have you heard the expression, "Hide in plain sight'? Maybe that's what Joni was doing. Honestly, I had no clue she had had a child, so my mind didn't even go there, not with "Little Green" nor with "Chinese Cafe." I generally don't sit around and analyze things - - it's too much work - LOL. I'm more of an impressionistic thinker - I just let ideas wash over me and something gets left behind (like seaweed on the shore?) It's kind of scary, but a bit of a trip too. (Maybe when she said, "I bore her," she meant "She finds me boring." LOL!) ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 22:45:33 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Kerry/Heinz now bullies NJC --- dsk wrote: > And still, three years after he's gone, I get > messages from people he's > written to (including people who were not even on > the list then) about > how much he hates me, as though it's all my fault > he's not here and his > behavior had absolutely nothing to do with it. And > as though I'm the > only one here who was "treated" to his scornful > private emails and had > negative feelings toward what he was doing. That's > the weirdest thing of > all. It leads me to have very little patience with > the people who kept > quiet about all that even after Marcel's private > behavior became public > (and a look at his emails around Sept 11, 2001 shows > what he's made of), > and who whine about how THEY are treated here now, > which comes nowhere > near the hatefulness Marcel spewed out to some > people here. I realize > that Marcel was a charmer and funny and kind to > other people. I call > that being a good manipulating bully, but that's > just my point of view, > and of course no one view is ever the whole story. > You know, I do remember some of that but I think I was too absorbed in my own problems at the time to pay it the attention it deserved. And it sounds a lot like someone I used to be married to. One thing about bullies is that it's never their fault. It's always someone else's fault, most often their wife or their kid, or maybe their boss, a co-worker, their mother or sister, or maybe the next-door neighbour but, failing that, anyone who happens to be around at the time. The line I used to get all the time would be something like, "You and my mother and my sister and everyone else in the world..." (Clue in, buddy - if *everyone in the world* is against you, maybe you should just have a good look at yourself?) But nooooo... that kind of person is simply not capable of seeing themself as others see them. There's something defective in the wiring or something. And the ones who are capable of charming some people while bullying and threatening others are most likely narcissists - all they can see is themselves and what they see is always right, never wrong. Pathetic and sad, but ultimately we're responsible for ourselves and our own sanity. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 20:32:36 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Nuriel Tobias wrote: > And if don't mind - could you please help me learn another fact that > i know nothing about? Was TTT recorded (not written) while Joni and > Donald were together or after they broke up? It's been bothering me > for some time now, and i'm really interested in finding the answer. > I'll be waiting to hear from you. > > Thanks again, > > Nuri Checking the archives in the JMDL library I see that TTT was released in 1998. There are articles about Joni's exhibit at the Mendel Art Gallery in Saskatoon in 2000 that mention her boyfriend, Donald Freed. So I would say she and Donald were still an item whe TTT was recorded. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 19:45:09 -1000 From: "dfrench" Subject: jonis birthday ok if anyone remembers an earlier post about our local NPR radio (kkcr) on kauai fundraiser , i am proud to announce to the island world here and all others who havnt quite got it together to relocate to paradise that the news of jonis birthday will be announced to the creation for the rest of the week and a special "honi'paa hauoli la hanau "on saturday on the 'get low show' 10pm-2am HST laura christine host....... it has been arrainged.........long live joni and her adoring fans, aloha dfrench ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 19:18:09 -1000 From: "dfrench" Subject: roland help njc anyone familiar with a roland G 50 rackmount??? i know its old and theres the gk p/u that came with as well as a memory card... ive never got to it yet , im cleaning and sorting my space ....i got some good shit i forgot about , as well as an old tele and a gibson j-45 all beat up but ...memories......im still digging ..aloha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:14:24 +0100 From: "FredNow" Subject: Re: Thanks :) :)) [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of Price.com] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:14:19 +0100 From: "Wallykai" Subject: Re: Thanks :) :)) [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of price.com] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 23:37:44 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Kerry/Heinz NJC PC Debra wrote: >It leads me to have very little patience with the people who kept > quiet about all that even after Marcel's private behavior became public > (and a look at his emails around Sept 11, 2001 shows what he's made of), > and who whine about how THEY are treated here now, which comes nowhere > near the hatefulness Marcel spewed out to some people here. And that's about the third or fourth time you've referred to me without mentioning me by name and it indicates that you do associate people's political beliefs here with your experience. I have never abused you or EVER encouraged any abuse of you so my right to "whine" or protest the treatment of people with differing political views is not pre-empted because you want to group all who were silent or a Republican as supporting Marcel. I wrote to you a long time ago privately when you said you were being abused and you did not reveal for a long time who that person was. I told you that I too had been abused horribly in private email for over a year by an individual on the list along with other people. That person was not only supported openly by people who are still here on the the list, he was also actively goaded to keep abusing me. I was scared shitless of this person. He was finally removed from the list but comes back here from time to time under different names. One reason I stayed silent in your situation was because I did not want to relive my own experience and I felt it was up to the listowner and the people who advise him to deal with your private situation. Another reason I stayed silent is because I was on another list at the time where people fighting with each other ended up in a lawsuit for slander and libel and everyone subscribed to that list, whether they ever posted or not (and I had never posted on that list), were named in the complaint. The complaint was also served to me at my law firm which was another nightmare and I received numerous emails from the person suing at my work email (which is monitored by my employer). Add to that all the personal challenges I have gone through the past six years which I do not care to share with the list. I am very sorry for you or anyone who is abused in private or public email because I have had that experience myself. But please, people like myself have reasons sometimes for not getting involved. Many of my friends on this list have privately expressed their thoughts that I have been abused here at times but they don't take up for me publically here and I don't expect them to or hold that against them. It shouldn't descend into "well you are in that camp so you deserve it" without knowing more about a person's own personal struggles. I'm sorry to have to write this but I am tired of being singled out by inference. Kakki - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #453 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)