From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #452 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, November 7 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 452 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Discrimination NJC [BRYAN8847@aol.com] happy birthday ["joe farrell" ] Re: Short note and minor Joni content (njc) ["mike pritchard" ] Re: Happy birthday! [Nuriel Tobias ] "My Child's A Stranger" [Nuriel Tobias ] Kerry/heinz, now responsibility, njc ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] NJC Re: Kerry/heinz, now responsibility, njc NJC & NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Five For Fighting' (NJC) [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] Re: Happy birthday! now njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Catherine McKay ] tea leaf ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC Re: Kerry/heinz, now responsibility, njc NJC & NJC [Catherine McK] Re: NJC Re: Kerry/heinz, now responsibility, njc NJC & NJC [Dflahm@aol.co] Re:I voted for Bush. NJC Nuriel [Em ] Go Paula Go! njc ["Azeem" ] Nov. 7 [] Buon Compleanno [] another map we're all shades of purple! NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Kate's Joni Birthday gig! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Buon Compleanno [] Re; I voted for Bush and Birthday wishes [steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabriell] Happy Birthday! ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Kerry/Heinz NJC PC [dsk ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 03:09:40 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Discrimination NJC Presently, having no defined protections under the law, I could go into work monday and my boss could fire me for being gay. He could tell me as much to my face and I would have not a single legal recourse against him. None. Similarly, couldn't we gays fire or harass our straight employees, who also have no protection? If sexual orientation is not covered as a protected class, then that applies to all sexual orientations. I think I'll fire one of them and see what happens. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 12:04:02 -0000 From: "joe farrell" Subject: happy birthday Happy Birthday Joni, hope you have a lovely day. Best Wishes, Joe. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 13:38:32 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Short note and minor Joni content (njc) >>You passed up the chance to nab Joni's dog? and then claim that you had found it wandering loose, and had the chance to bring her back to Joni's place? What IS the matter with you?<< And then there's the ransom angle... mike in bcn, saving for jonifrance... NP Albert Bover Trio - Esmuc Blues ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 05:25:29 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re:I voted for Bush. This is a non-political and njc post. No matter what dfrench wrote, i only hope she wasn't attacked in a way that would made her leave our list. Several years ago i wrote a post and got so scared after reading the responds to it, i instantly signed off the list. I wasn't angry, i didn't sign off as a protest. I simply felt unwanted and very scared and ashamed. After a year or so, i signed in back again, and ever that day i couldn't have been happier being with all of you once again. I don't know how many of us are members on other lists or message boards. I used to be, and couldn't believe my eyes when seeing how members drove other members out and couldn't care less, not to mention that insulting and humiliating posts were a regular thing on those lists and message boards. Surely this is not the case on our list, and i have nothing against debates, jc-wise or njc-wise. Sharon once told me, in a friendly and loving way that is, that there's something very naive in my writing. That made me smile. Do forgive me if what i'm to write next would sound naive or even silly. Friends - lets do our best not to drive any member out of here. Once one's "let me out of here!" post is reaches the list, while we may not even understand what went wrong, lets do our best to change one's mind from leaving. May this place be a home, and not a train station. I'm not even going to say that the thing that's binding us is Joni. I for one, have no explanetion for our brotherhood. Not all of us are lionhearted. I think we're all very sensetive, but some are of more sensetive in a way that they they're easly hurt or frightened, child-like. Some of us are witty and some of us are foolish. Some of us spend hours writing a post, while others spill their ideas in a flesh. Some of us are politicaly-correct and some of us write whatever they feel like writing. Some of us check the jmdl posts every now and then and some of us can't await the next post appearing in their inbox. Some of us are old. Some of us are young. Some of us are working 24/7, have families and lots of friends. Some of us are sitting alone in a room, no one's ringing, no one's knocking at the door, and their only hope, happiness, comfort and light in the dark is this place. Love you all, Nuri Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 05:44:07 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Happy birthday! Catherine McKay wrote: "Thanks, Tim, for posting this. I don't pay much attention to birthdays, including my own - no, especially my own! There are so many candles now that the neighbours always call 911." And i'm asking you, Catherine, is'nt the best birthday gift your neighnours could give you, is those handsome, sexy and masculine 911 guys? Happy Birthday, Joni! I was born a month after your debut was released, and i know i've been listening to your magical voice in my mother's womb. You took me in, you gave me love, and you gave me life. So here's to you, my queen! Nuri Joan, long may you live! And continue to create in the way that you see best. You've given us so much and yet, like spoiled children, we always cry out for more. I wish you a long life, health and happiness. All the best. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 06:10:34 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: "My Child's A Stranger" Something i don't understand and wanted to share with you and ask you... While in the CMIARS version of "Chinese caf'" the lyric "My child's a stranger" is easy to undersand for the simple fact that Joni might have crossed the street and pass by Kilaurent without even noticing she's her daughter - i don't undersant what made Joni include the same song on Travelogue, knowing that the "My child's a stranger" lyric is part of it. On TTT's "Stay In Touch" she writes that "our roles aren't clear" moving to "Til we build a firm foundation" and ending it with "So, we should just surrender ,Let fate and duty shape us, Let light hearts make us, Let the worries hush, In the middle of this continent ,In the middle of our time on Earth, We receive one another" making it seem that it's the begining of the mother and daughter's getting to know eachother with a bright future awaiting them, few years later it all winds up in that she's still a "stranger" to Joni? Nuri Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 09:31:04 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: Kerry/heinz, now responsibility, njc What the heck ever happened to fiscal responsibility? Does anybody care about this? (!) ~ Marianne >From: dsk >Yes, it must have been a complicated decision for a Republican to vote >for a candidate who does not promote the ideals of the Republican party. >That party previously stood for fiscal responsibility _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 09:34:31 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: mandate, njc What the heck is this "mandate" crap? another slippery sound bite dsk wrote: >The Bushies and most Republicans on tv are crowing about >MANDATE, even though so many people voted against them (considering the >way they acted in 2000 when Bush didn't even get in legitimately, it's >not a surprise they're acting like Bush is king now). _________________________________________________________________ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 09:49:19 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" **While in the CMIARS version of "Chinese caf'" the lyric "My child's a stranger" is easy to undersand for the simple fact that Joni might have crossed the street and pass by Kilaurent without even noticing she's her daughter - i don't undersant what made Joni include the same song on Travelogue, knowing that the "My child's a stranger" lyric is part of it. Nuri, Firstly Chinese Cafe is on WTRF, not CM, but no matter. CM certainly could have used a song or two that was that good. Secondly I think Joni included it on Tlog because it's a great song, not necessarily because it still defined her 20 years later. Besides, the first time I heard WTRF and Chinese Cafe, I had no idea (I doubt that many of us did) about Kilauren and that whole story, so here's the way I interpreted the lyric: "Your kids are growing up straight and my child's a stranger" : This just says that one parent sees another parent as having done a better job of parenting than they have, making the observation that the other has a closer relationship with their kids than they do. "I bore her": A brilliant double-entendre, reflecting the same sentiment as above; I not only gave birth to her (bore her) but I'm totally uninteresting and irrelevant to her (bore her). "but I could not raise her": Much of the same sentiment, again bemoaning the fact that giving birth to a child and bringing up a child are very different challenges. Many parents don't give up their children for adoption, they spend their lives with them, yet they never really know them, they essentially don't "raise" them. Even knowing now what I didn't know then about Joni/Kilauren, the song works for me as a personal exhortation and as a universal parental lamentation. Given this universal interpretation of the song, I don't see anything that prohibits Joni from re-recording it, or performing it or anything of the sort. It would be like saying she couldn't sing "Chelsea Morning" anymore because she doesn't live in NYC's Chelsea district. Bob NP: Cyril Ornadel, "Both Sides Now" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 09:54:30 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Kerry/heinz, now responsibility, njc NJC & NJC **What the heck ever happened to fiscal responsibility? Interesting question, Marianne - if I remember correctly, a big part of Newt Gingrich & Co's "Contract With America" involved balancing the budget and putting Social Security in a "lockbox". Obviously that's no longer the case, and the same folks who walked in lockstep with Newt are now walking lockstep in the other direction, and calling US "weak-willed flip-floppers". Oh well. I think the truth is that the average American finds themselves over-extended with debt and sees nothing wrong with their government doing the same thing. Bob NP: Steve Klink, "Cotton Avenue" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 09:55:13 EST From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Re: Five For Fighting' (NJC) Hey Gary, The first song I heard was Superman (it's not easy to be me)as well. John Ondrasik's voice just immidiatly grabbed me and the lyrics and thinking sometimes it isn't easy being. That CD is called"America Town".All words and music are by John, the Cd with 100 year to live I will get on Tuesday. I hope you enjoy it! Peace Mingus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:07:17 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Happy birthday! now njc --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Catherine McKay wrote: > > "Thanks, Tim, for posting this. I don't pay much > attention to birthdays, including my own - no, > especially my own! There are so many candles now > that > the neighbours always call 911." > > And i'm asking you, Catherine, is'nt the best > birthday gift your neighnours could give you, is LOL - every cloud has its silver lining! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:20:27 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Something i don't understand and wanted to share > with you and ask you... > > While in the CMIARS version of "Chinese caf'" the > lyric "My child's a stranger" is easy to undersand > for the simple fact that Joni might have crossed the > street and pass by Kilaurent without even noticing > she's her daughter - i don't undersant what made > Joni include the same song on Travelogue, knowing > that the "My child's a stranger" lyric is part of > it. > On TTT's "Stay In Touch" she writes that "our roles > aren't clear" moving to "Til we build a firm > foundation" and ending it with "So, we should just > surrender ,Let fate and duty shape us, Let light > hearts make us, Let the worries hush, In the middle > of this continent ,In the middle of our time on > Earth, We receive one another" making it seem that > it's the begining of the mother and daughter's > getting to know eachother with a bright future > awaiting them, few years later it all winds up in > that she's still a "stranger" to Joni? > I don't think it's all that unusual. They didn't grow up together. Joni knew Kelly/Kilauren as a baby and then lost her for 30 years or so. During that time, the baby grew up in another family and another life. Whatever Joni might have imagined was going on with her probably wasn't what truly was going on. Thirty years later she meets this adult woman who has her own life. I can only imagine that first meeting - there must have been a lot of staring at one another, especially on Joni's part, looking for that little baby in the young woman. I think people are mostly strangers to one another anyway, no matter how well they know each other. There are always things that take us by surprise about one another. I think we often assume too much about one another. Isn't it irritating when people say to you, "Oh, I know you! I know exactly how you would act in this situation!" Often they're wrong. I don't think we ever really know each other. That's just my opinion, of course, but if you never really know someone that you DID grow up with, then imagine what it's like to be separated for so long, and then to meet again. I guess the eerie part would be recognizing things in that child that are part of you, or part of the father, and realizing how many things you actually DO have in common, despite the years and distance. And then again, to me, the songs in Travelogue and the two Joni songs on BSN are a reminiscence on things that seemed one way at the time they were first written, so it's a comparison of what was then, and what is now. I hope this makes sense. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 10:27:25 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: tea leaf Fulujah. . . these strikes, these new reports. . this sounds more and more frightening to me. . a major operation. . coming . . happening? pray for the people ( I'm not the praying kind, but I think it's good) save the soldiers save the innocent. . My friend called me last night to tell me that her brother (I'll call him Joseph), in the reserves, recently deplored to Baghdad, called his wife yesterday. . he walked two miles to get to a phone booth to tell her he loved her.. He is not overtly emotional . . He said that they are telling all women and children to leave Baghdad . .. Have you heard this about Baghdad? it sounded to me that he feels a lot of fear, feels a lot of danger How many civilian deaths is acceptable before this is all over? The children? The body count according to the US Department of Defense, www.casualties.org, The New York Times, www.iraqbodycount.net via my local "City Newspaper" in Rochester, NY states in the November 3rd issue: BO D Y C O U N T: 1,118 American Soldiers 142 Coalition Soldiers approximately 14,219 to 16,352 Iraq civilians killed in the war from the beginning of the war and occupation to Nov. 3rd. ~A recent survey published by Lancet medical journal estimates as many as 100,000 Iraqi civilians killed. What's up with this? I reallly don't know. How many civilians dead is acceptable to you (when all is said and done)? How many soldiers dead is acceptable to you? Really, how many? "newsreels rattle. . . she plants her garden in the spring he does the winter shoveling sleep little darlin'! This is your happy home Don't have kids when you get grown Because this word is shattered The wise are mourning- The fools are joking Oh- what does it matter? The wash needs ironing And the fire needs stoking." Happy birthday Joni my words cannot express the gift you bring stardust, golden Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:33:15 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Besides, the first time > I heard WTRF and Chinese Cafe, I had no idea (I > doubt that many of us did) > about Kilauren and that whole story, so here's the > way I interpreted the lyric: > > "Your kids are growing up straight and my child's a > stranger" : This just > says that one parent sees another parent as having > done a better job of > parenting than they have, making the observation > that the other has a closer > relationship with their kids than they do. > Now that you mention that, Bob, when this song came out, I read Joni's "child" as being her own self (or possibly and to a lesser degree, her art). I realize it doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of "I bore her" because a person can't really bear herself (well, yes, she can, if it has the meaning of being able to put up with oneself). I just figured she meant that she was somehow stuck in this childish/youthful phase herself, looking at her friend who was all growed-up now, with kids of her own, acting like a big lady, whereas Joni was still playing around, with her music and her various love affairs, somehow stuck in childhood; and yet, she has aged and doesn't really recognize her old self anymore ("My child's a stranger.") I saw that part as a sort of questioning of herself now that she has reached a certain age and wondering whether her life could have or should have taken a different direction earlier on. "Nothing lasts for long". Youth has gone and in so many ways, she has moved on, but still stayed in the same place. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:38:09 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC Re: Kerry/heinz, now responsibility, njc NJC & NJC --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > **What the heck ever happened to fiscal > responsibility? > > > > Interesting question, Marianne - if I remember > correctly, a big part of Newt > Gingrich & Co's "Contract With America" involved > balancing the budget and > putting Social Security in a "lockbox". ... > I think the truth is that the average American > finds themselves > over-extended with debt and sees nothing wrong with > their government doing the same thing. > One of the supposed indicators of a "good" economy is people spending money, buying things. The pundits of economy always worry if Christmas-time spending is soft. If people aren't spending money, it means they're worried about something, apparently. If they can talk us into spending money, then the economy must be fine. If we see the Joneses with a new car, or a home theatre, then we have to buy one too, because jeez, if the Joneses can afford it, then so can we, dammit! The economy must be good - people are shopping! (Never mind the debt they incur - that will all work out.) Now, let's curb social spending but when it comes to war, let's pull out all the stops and worry about paying for it later. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:48:03 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Re: Kerry/heinz, now responsibility, njc NJC & NJC Except we don't pull out all the stops: at least the news stories about unarmored Humvees suggest as much. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 07:42:52 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re:I voted for Bush. NJC Nuriel Hi Nuri, thank you for your tender-hearted and oh-so-human post. You are one of the beautiful men on this list who makes me feel that I indeed have brothers. Having lost my biological brother several years ago, I am always so comforted by getting to know guys such as yourself and several others on this list. HIGH precentage of sweet brothers on this list. Thanks for being there. Yeah I agree, lets not drive anyone away. No pitchforks. But then OTOH, some people are just plain "flighty" - so if they go, what can you do, ya know? :) Em ps by the way Nuriel, I KNEW you were a playwright or somesuch, I just sensed it...wasn't really surprised when you spilled that info the other day..but I was thinking AHA! I knew it...lol. - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > This is a non-political and njc post. > No matter what dfrench wrote, i only hope she wasn't attacked in a > way that would made her leave our list. Several years ago i wrote a > post and got so scared after reading the responds to it, i instantly > signed off the list. I wasn't angry, i didn't sign off as a protest. > I simply felt unwanted and very scared and ashamed. After a year or > so, i signed in back again, and ever that day i couldn't have been > happier being with all of you once again. > I don't know how many of us are members on other lists or message > boards. I used to be, and couldn't believe my eyes when seeing how > members drove other members out and couldn't care less, not to > mention that insulting and humiliating posts were a regular thing on > those lists and message boards. Surely this is not the case on our > list, and i have nothing against debates, jc-wise or njc-wise. > Sharon once told me, in a friendly and loving way that is, that > there's something very naive in my writing. That made me smile. Do > forgive me if what i'm to write next would sound naive or even silly. > Friends - lets do our best not to drive any member out of here. Once > one's "let me out of here!" post is reaches the list, while we may > not even understand what went wrong, lets do our best to change one's > mind from leaving. May this place be a home, and not a train station. > I'm not even going to say that the thing that's binding us is Joni. I > for one, have no explanetion for our brotherhood. > Not all of us are lionhearted. I think we're all very sensetive, but > some are of more sensetive in a way that they they're easly hurt or > frightened, child-like. Some of us are witty and some of us are > foolish. Some of us spend hours writing a post, while others spill > their ideas in a flesh. Some of us are politicaly-correct and some of > us write whatever they feel like writing. Some of us check the jmdl > posts every now and then and some of us can't await the next post > appearing in their inbox. Some of us are old. Some of us are young. > Some of us are working 24/7, have families and lots of friends. Some > of us are sitting alone in a room, no one's ringing, no one's > knocking at the door, and their only hope, happiness, comfort and > light in the dark is this place. > > Love you all, > > Nuri > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 16:30:03 -0000 From: "Azeem" Subject: Go Paula Go! njc Im getting quite nervous watching Paula Radcliffe in the New York Marathon, its looking like a close one. Anyone else watching?? Azeem in London - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 01/11/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:59:40 -0600 From: Subject: Nov. 7 Happy 61st birthday, Joni!! Thanks for the music. Thanks for the memories. Thanks for all you've given us over the years. And, in doing whatever gives you pleasure in the years to come, may your happiness never cease: really. With gratitude and deep appreciation, Mary, in Wisconsin. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 19:00:39 +0100 From: Subject: Buon Compleanno Joni, Buon compleanno. Grazie per esistere. Con affetto Angela ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:19:40 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: another map we're all shades of purple! NJC http://www.boingboing.net/images/Purple-USA.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:20:02 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Bob, First of all, sorry for placing the song in the wrong album. ("slapping myself in shame") ok. Well, i can only speak for myself, but when i heard "Chinese Caf'" (the original version) i instantly realized that Joni has a daughter. I had no idea where that child popped up from, and like you (though not for the same reason like you, as you'll soon undrestand) i thought that "couldn't raise her" meant that the daughter was an anti-mother-rebel-teen, for i had no idea about the giving up and the adoption thing at all. You must understand that all i knew about Joni's history - up to lets say 10 years ago - was what Joni sang about, and that was my only "source", and that was good enough for me. Honest! I had no idea that "I had a king" was about C. Mitchell, i had no idea she was even married to him nor did i know who the hell he was, i had no idea that "For the roses" was about James, I had no idea who "amelia" was, etc' etc' etc' - i had no idea of nothing at all rather than my own interpetation for the lyrics. So, having no idea of Joni's real life, but rather learning (and often learning it up side down and totaly wrong) about it from her lyrics alone, i thought "Oh, that's nice, she has a daughter". Confused, dear?:) Well, i was confused too, because i thought that Larry was her first husband and couldn't understand how on earth they managed to make a baby that fast! Honest! Not kidding here at all! In fact, i even recall that back then i thought that Larry and Joni gave birth to a child and then gave her up for adoption! Honest! Not kidding here at all Nu. 2! Then, once the internet era started and i joined the list and started learning the real facts (and i'm still learning, and loving to finaly be able to undrestand where my imagination meets the reality and where it doesn't) - and when Kilaurent "joined us" - i understood for the first time what that lyric was all about. (and btw, Bob, you say that back then you had no idea about Kilaurent and the whole story - fine - but surely you realized that Joni has a daughter when you first heard "My child's a stranger, i bore her...", no? Or you knew that beofre? Or you thought it's a metaphore? Or what? You've confused me...:) Back to the issue which is "My child's a stranger" on Travelogue. I have to disagree with you, Bob. I know for sure (and even recall reading something Joni said about Travelogue) that Joni would have not covered songs that she DIDN'T STAND BEHIND THEIR WORDS, and saying that the songs on Travelogue were chosen for being beautiful is true, but not the whole truth. I don't think that Joni was going over all of her songs going "hey, this one is so beautiful, i just have to reocrd it again". I think, and you should really start worry when I THINK, that Joni's intention was to produce a "new" album by using old songs, meaning, choosing older lyrics as "new" lyrics, not a re-run of a chapter in her diary, but rather a new chapter. And if Chelsea isn't there - it's beacuse, imho, it had nothing to do with Joni's new chapter or her state at that time, as beautiful as it may be. And i'll go further and say - i don't even think she's was trying to tell us "those lyrics are as relevant to me as they were back then" but rather "those are "new" lyrics that state my postion as it is TODAY". Not too sure at all if i made myself clear, but in case i somehow did (surely i'm not the only insane person here, right?), singing "My child's a stranger" on Travelogue means that even after they met again, spent time together, got closer and had hopes to become "familiar" - she's still a stranger to her. My question was WHY she's still a stranger to her. Wanna start a fight with me about that, Bob? Well, let's go outside this bar and i'll show you who's the man! :)))) xxx I'm moving on to Chathrine's reply, saw it in my inbox, but didn't open it yet. Maybe she also wants to start a fight...i'll show her...bewear, Catherine, i'm about to open your post!:) Nuri SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: **While in the CMIARS version of "Chinese caf'" the lyric "My child's a stranger" is easy to undersand for the simple fact that Joni might have crossed the street and pass by Kilaurent without even noticing she's her daughter - i don't undersant what made Joni include the same song on Travelogue, knowing that the "My child's a stranger" lyric is part of it. Nuri, Firstly Chinese Cafe is on WTRF, not CM, but no matter. CM certainly could have used a song or two that was that good. Secondly I think Joni included it on Tlog because it's a great song, not necessarily because it still defined her 20 years later. Bes zbliez gyeaez peqtez yl blil`e do bilei dixgim yl vcw edharez yl yaz`i arfxz hlqwes yapd (`gc dhlqwetim dx`yepim), bilei kzni-dyny, dnv`z dncgem dx`yeo, gwixez rl ddzpdbez yl nhehlz, dqaxz db`ez edytl a`nvrez dytrz dnyikd yl dixg erec. `elm dzxend dgyead aiezx yl blil`e di` dbiyd dgcyd ydvib ldapz zdlikim hariim: dyiney anzinhiwd. lnyl, blil`e diddx`yeo yz`x `z dfno kiyx - "vix dfno". k`yx `pgpe nyxhhim bxs yl tepwvid yae `gc dvixim de` vix dfno - `pgpe niiynim `z `gz nzbliezie dnxkfiez yl blil`e. blil`e dzgil `z ndtikz d"nzinhifvid" yl dtiqiwd - kl dzdlikim egewi dhar nze`xim epgwxim arfxz nzinhiwd. kti y`nx blil`e: "qtx dhar pkza aytz dnzinhiwd". , so here's the way I interpreted the lyric: "Your kids are growing up straight and my child's a stranger" : This just says that one parent sees another parent as having done a better job of parenting than they have, making the observation that the other has a closer relationship with their kids than they do. "I bore her": A brilliant double-entendre, reflecting the same sentiment as above; I not only gave birth to her (bore her) but I'm totally uninteresting and irrelevant to her (bore her). "but I could not raise her": Much of the same sentiment, again bemoaning the fact that giving birth to a child and bringing up a child are very different challenges. Many parents don't give up their children for adoption, they spend their lives with them, yet they never really know them, they essentially don't "raise" them. Even knowing now what I didn't know then about Joni/Kilauren, the song works for me as a personal exhortation and as a universal parental lamentation. Given this universal interpretation of the song, I don't see anything that prohibits Joni from re-recording it, or performing it or anything of the sort. It would be like saying she couldn't sing "Chelsea Morning" anymore because she doesn't live in NYC's Chelsea district. Bob NP: Cyril Ornadel, "Both Sides Now" Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:24:01 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Something i don't understand and wanted to share with you and ask > you... > > While in the CMIARS version of "Chinese caf'" the lyric "My child's a > stranger" is easy to undersand for the simple fact that Joni might > have crossed the street and pass by Kilaurent without even noticing > she's her daughter - i don't undersant what made Joni include the > same song on Travelogue, knowing that the "My child's a stranger" > lyric is part of it. Some very interesting comments and interpretations of this song from Catherine and Bob . Personally, I got it almost right away if I remember correctly. Something in me had always suspected that Joni was talking about herself in 'Little Green' and 'Chinese Cafe' confirmed that for me. That being said, I think Joni's choice of songs for 'Travelogue' had more to do with musicality and how the songs would lend themselves to reworking than what they said lyrically. All of Joni's songs come from some specific point of her life and they don't necessarily represent her present state of mind. The line 'my child's a stranger' was where she was when she wrote 'Chinese Cafe' and has nothing to do with the relationship she was developing with Kilauren at the time of recording the song for 'Travelogue'. While we're talking about this song, does anybody else feel that Joni's inclusion of 'Unchained Melody' has an underlying meaning? Ever since the truth about 'Little Green' came out, I have thought she was singing the song to that lost child. 'I've hungered for your touch a long lonely time/Time goes by so slowly and time can do so much/Are you still mine?....God speed your love to me.' . > On TTT's "Stay In Touch" she writes that "our roles aren't clear" > moving to "Til we build a firm foundation" and ending it with "So, we > should just surrender ,Let fate and duty shape us, Let light hearts > make us, Let the worries hush, In the middle of this continent ,In > the middle of our time on Earth, We receive one another" making it > seem that it's the begining of the mother and daughter's getting to > know eachother with a bright future awaiting them, few years later it > all winds up in that she's still a "stranger" to Joni? Joni had written all of the material for 'Taming the Tiger' before she and Kilauren were reunited. She has said that 'Stay In Touch' is a good description of the start of her relationship with her daughter after they had found one another. But the song itself was written before the reunion and therefore, is not about the reunion. I believe it was more about her relationship with Donald Freed at the time. Of course, it could be that Joni was having a sub-conscious emotional premonition. I wouldn't put it past her. Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:38:56 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Catherine McKay wrote: > And then again, to me, the songs in Travelogue and the > two Joni songs on BSN are a reminiscence on things > that seemed one way at the time they were first > written, so it's a comparison of what was then, and > what is now. I like this, Catherine, and I think it's very apt. It reminds me of the voice over at the being of the film 'Julia' which is taken from the beginning of Lillian Hellman's book 'Pentimento': 'Old paint on canvas, as it ages, sometimes becomes transparent. When that happens it is possible, in some pictures, to see the original lines: a tree will show through a woman's dress, a child makes way for a dog, a large boat is no longer on an open sea. That is called pentimento because the painter "repented," changed his mind. Perhaps it would be as well to say that the old conception, replaced by a later choice, is a way of seeing and then seeing again. That is all I mean about the people in this book. The paint has aged now and I wanted to see what was there for me once, what is there for me now.' Maybe that's what 'Travelogue' is about. Maybe not. But I'm sure Joni would love having it described in terms of painting! Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:07:29 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Oh. Thank God. Catherine understood me. A daughter being a stranger to her mother...that's so sad...so sad...i recall the "no doubt, that's always been a tricky one for me" lyric from "Stay in Touch", and it reminds of those genetic and skin tissues tests where the lab informs a mother "no doubt - this is indeed your daughter". So scary, and messy, and sad, sad, sad...Remember "Secrest and Lies", the British film? There it's even a "worse" case - bacause the mother is white and the daughter is black. The mother in that film, same as Joni, kept the whole thing as a secret from nearly everyone, and once the daughter she gave up right after baring her when she was 16 y.o. finds her, she doesn't want to do anything with her. At the begining, that is. Then she realizes that she needs her daughter and they start dating and meeting and chating, still keeping it as a secret between the both of them. Then the mother decides to let the whole world know that the black girl is indeed the baby she bore, and the end is so happy...so happy... btw, Catherine, i read your other reply regarding what went through your mind when you first heard the song. Your interpetaion to what you heard back then is lovely, and i mean it, honest, but i wonder - when JONI MITCHELL tells you that "MY CHILD'S A STRANGER, I BORE HER" - is'nt it plain to see that "HER CHILD'S A STRANGER, SHE BORE HER"?!:)lol! Sometimes were all getting a bit to analitic when it comes to poetry. Sometime were all rushing to find the deeper meaning instead of hearing what is simply said. Maybe the only reason i instantly understood that Joni is a mother, is, after all, the fact that i always believd whatever she wrote as only a blind fool Joni fan like me would. Thank you for your ever-so-true-viewing-life post, Catherine. Nuri Catherine McKay wrote: - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Something i don't understand and wanted to share > with you and ask you... > > While in the CMIARS version of "Chinese caf'" the > lyric "My child's a stranger" is easy to undersand > for the simple fact that Joni might have crossed the > street and pass by Kilaurent without even noticing > she's her daughter - i don't undersant what made > Joni include the same song on Travelogue, knowing > that the "My child's a stranger" lyric is part of > it. > On TTT's "Stay In Touch" she writes that "our roles > aren't clear" moving to "Til we build a firm > foundation" and ending it with "So, we should just > surrender ,Let fate and duty shape us, Let light > hearts make us, Let the worries hush, In the middle > of this continent ,In the middle of our time on > Earth, We receive one another" making it seem that > it's the begining of the mother and daughter's > getting to know eachother with a bright future > awaiting them, few years later it all winds up in > that she's still a "stranger" to Joni? > I don't think it's all that unusual. They didn't grow up together. Joni knew Kelly/Kilauren as a baby and then lost her for 30 years or so. During that time, the baby grew up in another family and another life. Whatever Joni might have imagined was going on with her probably wasn't what truly was going on. Thirty years later she meets this adult woman who has her own life. I can only imagine that first meeting - there must have been a lot of staring at one another, especially on Joni's part, looking for that little baby in the young woman. I think people are mostly strangers to one another anyway, no matter how well they know each other. There are always things that take us by surprise about one another. I think we often assume too much about one another. Isn't it irritating when people say to you, "Oh, I know you! I know exactly how you would act in this situation!" Often they're wrong. I don't think we ever really know each other. That's just my opinion, of course, but if you never really know someone that you DID grow up with, then imagine what it's like to be separated for so long, and then to meet again. I guess the eerie part would be recognizing things in that child that are part of you, or part of the father, and realizing how many things you actually DO have in common, despite the years and distance. And then again, to me, the songs in Travelogue and the two Joni songs on BSN are a reminiscence on things that seemed one way at the time they were first written, so it's a comparison of what was then, and what is now. I hope this makes sense. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:09:19 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" **(and btw, Bob, you say that back then you had no idea about Kilaurent and the whole story - fine - but surely you realized that Joni has a daughter when you first heard "My child's a stranger, i bore her...", no? Or you knew that beofre? Or you thought it's a metaphore? Or what? You've confused me...:) I did not consider the song to be autobiographical, so it made perfect sense to me. I actually heard/owned WTRF before Blue, so that "Joni had a baby" seed of an idea from Little Green was not on my mind. I didn't know any of her personal history, I just enjoyed and admired her as a writer. As far as I was concerned, Joni had written a song from the perspective of a middle-aged woman who was experiencing some of the crises that come with that age. I mean, do you by the same token think that Joni did time in the Magdalene Laundries? No she wrote a song from the perspective of the young girl imprisoned. Likewise, most of HOSL is portraits of others and not self-portrait, so it's clear that Joni writes songs that are drawn from her own expereinces and also from others. Her gift is finding a common thread that all of relate to, and by doing it so well we tend to feel that she's ALWAYS writing from her own experiences. Which is certainly NOT to say that Cafe isn't autobiographical; while I may not have thought so at the time, I do in fact see it now in a different light, now that I have the benefit of additional historical facts & information. Hope that makes sense to you now. Bob NP: The birthday girl herself, "Just Like This Train" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:12:28 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Kate's Joni Birthday gig! Hi Kate, Just wanted to say "break a leg" to you and all of your performers in tonight's Tribute show. I've put on the ruby slippers and said "There's no place like Santa Barbara" over & over, but to no avail - I remain stuck in redneckville. But I'll be there in spirit, and I look forward to your report! Bob NP: Sam Cooke, "A Change Is Gonna Come" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 20:16:30 +0100 From: Subject: Buon Compleanno Buon compleanno, JONI. Grazie per esistere . Con affetto Angela ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 19:35 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder) Subject: Re; I voted for Bush and Birthday wishes I too am Joni Only digest but want to echo Mags' moving endorsement of John Calimee's deeply felt and powerful post. Where does Joni Only start and finish? Well, I guess it's just another Borderline. When I read the posts, several lines from (much derided) DED came to my mind, not least: Lord, there's danger in this land You get witch-hunts and wars When church and state hold hands. Fuck it! Tonight I'm going dancing With the drag queens and punks...' Take care all those list members hurting and fearful out there. For what it's worth, my love is going out as strong as I can send it and I'd like to suggest we all go and put on those dancing shoes. It's Joni's birthday after all. Happy Birthday, Joan. Don't you just have a line or two for every occasion? Thanks you for so much, Love Anita xx ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:33:28 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Happy Birthday! Joni, I don't really think you lurk on this listserv. But I do think there are people in your orbit who at least keep a finger on our collective pulse. So with that in mind, I would like to wish you all the best as you begin yet another orbit around the sun. Through the years, I have turned to you for music of substance, quality and originality. From the very first record to the most recent, you have *never* let me down. The last has always been as fresh, provocative and beautiful as what came before. Thank you for voicing so many of my thoughts and feelings so eloquently through the years. For me, nobody is your equal when it comes to expressing in words and music what it is to be human. Your music has helped me to grow as a human being in so many ways and pushed me into discovering many wonderful things that I might have missed otherwise. Whatever road you choose to take and whatever life brings you, I hope it brings you joy, fulfillment and peace of mind. Happy Birthday, Joni! Mark Scott Shoreline Washington ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:01:36 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Kerry/Heinz NJC PC Dflahm@aol.com wrote: > > Debra--- > > "Right-winger" to me connotes extremist. Yes, there are members of JMDL who > are not liberals, but since Marcel Deste left, I don't think I'd call the > not-liberal posts I've read here examples of "right-wing" thought. Do you consider the Bush administration right-wing? I do. By my understanding of the traditional political spectrum (and that is just a rough guideline), any Republican is "right-wing" in the same way I'd be willing to call any Democrat "left-wing." My description of the Bushies is EXTREME right-wing, based on the way they're lessening civil rights, suppressing the press, benefiting big business at the expense of working citizens, and using fear to control us all. Reagan and the first Bush did not do that. The Bushies are using 9/11 as the excuse for what they're doing, but I don't buy that. Their destructive actions, for example starving the government and social security by those huge tax cuts, started before 9/11. As Cheney said recently, after the 2000 election they spent about 30 seconds thinking about bringing the divided country together, and then he went to on to say, hey, we're in, we can do what we want. And they have. Any person anywhere who repeats the Bushies' talking points, sometimes word for word, and does it on every issue, and agrees with everything the Bushies are doing, that person is letting everyone know he or she is a right-wing thinker. That's not my label applied just out of the blue for no reason. But we can disagree on all of that. The same words can mean different things to different people. And right-wing/left-wing is never a complete description of anyone's thoughts or behavior. I do agree with you that no one here is writing to people the way Marcel (or whatever his name is) did. His energetic hatefulness (from my point of view) wasn't limited to politics, though, so I don't think his politics caused him to behave the way he did. In other words, just because someone is "right-wing" doesn't make me assume they're hateful people or church-goers who listen to the pastor and have no mind of their own. Marcel was often scornful and insulting toward his targets (usually women) when the discussion was about music or other non-political topics. Anyone who didn't agree with him was dirt, no matter what the topic was. It's really too bad he wouldn't stop emailing people privately. That's all I ever asked of him. I disagreed with him politically, but never asked Les or anyone else that Marcel be taken off the list, and was surprised when he was. All I asked of Marcel was that he stop emailing me privately about discussions that started on the list. Lots of people for years asked the same of him. I remember one woman's post that was in all CAPS like she was screaming at him, "don't send me any more emails." That was a painful message just to look at. That was over a year before I finally spoke up publicly. And still, three years after he's gone, I get messages from people he's written to (including people who were not even on the list then) about how much he hates me, as though it's all my fault he's not here and his behavior had absolutely nothing to do with it. And as though I'm the only one here who was "treated" to his scornful private emails and had negative feelings toward what he was doing. That's the weirdest thing of all. It leads me to have very little patience with the people who kept quiet about all that even after Marcel's private behavior became public (and a look at his emails around Sept 11, 2001 shows what he's made of), and who whine about how THEY are treated here now, which comes nowhere near the hatefulness Marcel spewed out to some people here. I realize that Marcel was a charmer and funny and kind to other people. I call that being a good manipulating bully, but that's just my point of view, and of course no one view is ever the whole story. That's going far afield from your message, David, but I've never spelled out any of that before because I kept hoping the Marcel influence on this list would end at some point, but there are people willing to keep it going. So, Brian and other Marcel pals here, please pass this on to him also. I'm sure you will. The luster of this list disappeared with that whole experience that took place over years and still isn't over. So, as in any group or any person, there's good and bad and negative and positive and trusting and learning not to do that all mixed into the same big jumble. Being here has been a good lesson in learning to live with complexity. Some days it's easier than others. Debra Shea, in NYC ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #452 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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