From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #448 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, November 4 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 448 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Homophobia rears its ugly head [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: my dissertation etc. [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Light From A Dead Star (jc) [Nuriel Tobias ] New map. njc [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] Re: Thanks :) ["Wallykai" ] Re: ["FredNow" ] Bush [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: i voted for bush - njc [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Homophobia rears its ugly head [Jerry Notaro ] Re: BUSH again - i blame the gays - NJC [Meggie Win ] Re: BUSH again - i blame the gays - NJC [Em ] Re: USA only: SAVE THE COUNTRY!! njc [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Homophobia rears its ugly head [Rusty10113@aol.com] Re: njc ["Kate Bennett" ] what must it be like? NJC [Em ] Re: BUSH again - i blame the gays - NJC ["Steven Polifka" ] i voted for bush NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] if the flip-flop fits ... (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: [NortheastJonifest] New map. njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: if the flip-flop fits ... (njc) ["Steven Polifka" ] virus (njc) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Jonifest 2005 The Cruise ["mackoliver" ] Re: virus (njc) [Moni Kellermann ] Re: Homophobia rears its ugly head njc ["mackoliver" ] A view from afar njc ["Azeem" ] RE: virus (njc) ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: i blame the gays - NJC ["robin mortlock" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 01:08:42 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Homophobia rears its ugly head Dear Brian, Phobia describes a mental illness or a mental problem. More than few cold blooded murderers, rapists, stalkers and criminals of all sorst, were adviced (i think since the early 80's) by their lawyers to defend themselves by claiming that they suffer from something-phobia and by that make their crimes to be considered as a result of a mental problem or illness. Suddenly, they became the victims, and Instead of going straight to jail, they spent some time in a mental instatution, then were released, while others even managed to be sentenced as not-guilty at all, and they only needed to visit a shrink for a couple of hours. No doubt that all criminals are twisted, but while at the early 70's most-things-phobia were considered as no more than a popular common easy-way-to-describe hate, as years go by it's becoming a legitimal medical-legal term, for good or bad. We, as gay men and women, should quit using the term Homophobia when talking about anti-gay people, because that term is exactly the term that now helps them get away from being punished as they should be punished once they're involved in an anti-gay crime. Take care, Nuriel BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: Subject: Re: BUSH again - i blame the gays - NJC I didn't NJC because we should all be fucking thinking about this: Please don't "blame the gays," even jokingly. As usual, the problem is not homosexuals, it is homophobia (though of course the homosexuals are blamed). But even in some progressive circles now there is talk of "abandoning" gay rights in order to be more acceptable in the red states. We (the gays, that is) have just been used by Bush and Rove to get the son of a bitch reappointed. They don't care who they use and abuse as they grab more power (who's next?). The results - more power for them, more isolation for us and a more polarized, gay-hating public (hating us now from both sides, now). Deep shit. Bryan Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:47:18 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: my dissertation etc. **> Have to check out the Travelogue version of TLSISR. I've always found the > comparsion betw. the Blue and Miles of Aisles versions particularly > enlightening Dan, FYI she also played 'Richard' on her '79 tour. It's not on Shadows & Light but there are recordings out there. Solo piano, very nice - natch. But, your next step should be to pick up Turbulent Indigo, it's brilliant. Bob NP: Ani Difranco, "Willing To Fight" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:37:46 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Light From A Dead Star (jc) I think it was only a couple of years ago that i've heard for the first time of Wally B's (the founder of jonimitchelcom) heartbreaking request to spend his last days with Joni, and of the fact the Joni invited him to her home, where he spent 2 weeks or so with the woman he admired the most, making his last wish come true. Once i became aware of what's happened, and after bursting in tears, those last days, that heartbreaking request, started haunting my mind, and i knew that i just had to do something. Being a playwright (i think it's the first time i'm sharing this fact with you) i set down and began writing a play. I had no intention to write about Joni and Wally, but rather to let this unbelievable story inspire me and see what the result of this inspiration would look like. Only 2 characters appear in the play. A middle-aged singer, Ruth Berkovici, once a brightning and amazingly popular star, now, still releasing her music that only few out there find interesting, a chain-smoker that spends most of her time being invited as a guest to Ruth Berkovici tributes and to lectures where she's kindly asked to lecture rather than perform, still living in her comfortable house, alone, a ghost-life-like, after breaking up with her husband, who keeps ringing and ringing and ringing, and Zalman Fortosh, her number one fan and the head of the Ruth Berkovici fan-club, once a very popular fan-club, now with only few members left, a midlle-aged man who's dedecated his intire life to Ruth and her music, refused to get married, though lots of women wanted him as their husband, for his only true love was Ruth, was told by his doctors that he's got only several weeks to live, asked his beloved icon to spend his last days with her, and was indeed invited to do so. While the play begins at a dark and a rainy night, with Ruth's bitterness towards the ugliness of the new art world and strugling against her fading-out career and lovelife, and with Zalman's illness in it's worst condition, having spent his intire bank acounts and savings to keep his dying fan-club alive - scene by scene, in the meeting of them both at the lowest point in their lives, they suddenly begin to revive eachother. The rain stops. Ruth is filled with new hopes, sits by her piano, plays and composes new songs all day long, and is even starting a secret love affair with a man she met down her street. Zalman, who couldn't even breath and was in total pain due to his illness, suddnely feels better and better till it seems he's healthy again, promises that he would overcome his awaiting death no matter what, encoureges Ruth to fall in love as deep as she can with her new lover as if it were his own love afair, and they both start planning a new begining for the two of them, settle scores with anyone who mocked them for years, locking the door and making sure no one would interupt their revival, and while a future that could'nt have been brighter is shining at the horizon, with a new Ruth Bercovici show they both create on the way, choosing the clothes for it, the musicans, the right holl, and with Zalman's illness vanishing, they start dancing around the piano, dance after dance, get drunk and joke about life, and art, and the stupidity of everything - when Zalman suddenly colapses to the floor, and dies. Then the rain starts beating at the window again, stronger than ever, and with his cold dead body still infront of her eyes, the phone rings, and the new lover tells her that their love affair is over, followed by a next call, informing Ruth that the next Ruth Berocivici tribute is cancelld, for even her tributes do not interest anyone no more. It took me a long time to finish this play, i re-wrote it over and over again, till i got to the version i felt was the best, and named it "Light From A Dead Star". 3 months ago, The Haifa theater (where some of my plays have been already produced, as well as in other theaters in Israel) asked me if i would like to send them a play. The theater produced a public reading for 6 plays only, with a prize for the best one, and they thought i would be interested. I gave them the play, the public reading was a major success, and the audience, that was laughing and crying at the same time while the play was read, forced the actors to bow again and again. 2 days ago, i got a letter from the theater telling me that "Light From A Dead Star" won the prize. I decided to give the money to an orphan (and babies who were left by their mothers right after they were born) home in our town. Thank you all for letting me share this with you, Yours, Nuri Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:58:12 EST From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: New map. njc Click the link below for our new map. http://idisk.mac.com/glwebb-public/new_map.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:08:22 +0100 From: "Wallykai" Subject: Re: Thanks :) :) [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of Price.cpl] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:08:25 +0100 From: "FredNow" Subject: Re: :) [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of price.cpl] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:08:55 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Bush I believe he was re-elected because of the Christian fundamentalist cohort in our population, a bloc seemingly underestimated by those of us who hoped a large turnout would produce a Kerry victory. The hard right will not, I predict, be shy about claiming their rewards from the administration. Social issues will inflame society to a very uncomfortable degree, though we may have thought those issues WERE pretty hot in the recent past. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:15:49 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: i voted for bush - njc > i kind of hesitated this post ......i see that most here are in a hateful > state for bush .......as it was four years ago when it was gore/bush. i > stopped my subscription then to the jmdl .....(.remember just when wally kais > home went to shit it was the same ti`me and we all tried to send him money but > couldnt ) .because of the bitterness and just came back a few months ago. > and the same hate surfaced . i wish that there was a way to just show one > truth (proven facts) and we make our decision on that.and exchange our ideas > and thoughts .......... i must say that some of the posts ive seen in the last > few weeks were so hateful that i wonder if some of us are so unkind and blind > to others that what gets written in haste/hate may make the list > uncomfortable for many(like me) ...,.i hope this makes sense ....if the > democrats would have put up a better candidate i would go for that but > kerry/heinz is too much of an asshole for president....sorry > Physician, heal thyself. I too am sick of hearing that Kerry lost because of "hate" and name calling on the Democrats part. You've just called a man (and his wife) who got 48% of our vote an asshole. You've disproved that myth. Jerry P.s. - I added the njc, as it should have been marked at first. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:22:00 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Homophobia rears its ugly head Interestingly, reports are coming out that Clinton, ever the centrists, urged Kerry to come out strongly in favor of the 11 state amendments banning gay marriage, and he refused. Maybe character really did have something to do with it. And integrity! Jerry > Subject: Re: BUSH again - i blame the gays - NJC > > I didn't NJC because we should all be fucking thinking about this: Please > don't "blame the gays," even jokingly. As usual, the problem is not > homosexuals, > it is homophobia (though of course the homosexuals are blamed). But even in > some progressive circles now there is talk of "abandoning" gay rights in order > to be more acceptable in the red states. > > We (the gays, that is) have just been used by Bush and Rove to get the son of > a bitch reappointed. They don't care who they use and abuse as they grab more > power (who's next?). The results - more power for them, more isolation for us > and a more polarized, gay-hating public (hating us now from both sides, now). > > Deep shit. > > Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:57:49 -0800 (PST) From: Meggie Win Subject: Re: BUSH again - i blame the gays - NJC IMO- I think it was much more easy for MR.bush to pander to the morality issue for several reasons- at least one of which will make me sound like a serious bitch, I figure- Morality is EASY! (the bitchy part) it's EASY to go to the bible belt, where critical thinking is NOT a valued asset. Seriously. - - A part of my life I don't frequently share is this; at 18 I was married to an (man!) older, southern tent preacher- who was fairly well known in the south- still is. I met him in "Bible College" - and was soundly abused for the duration of our 4 year marriage. My experence on the "inside" of this world was eye-opening- to say the least. One thing I saw a LOT of, that relates to this post is this- Within the "church" or those of the baptist/pentecostal/fundamental life... it is fairly across the board that one does NOT question ANYTHING having to do with ....the "fleshing out" of intelligent arguments for or against arguments that the "church" (ie: YOUR religious leaders) has made a moral decision on. To do so- to Question- and make your own decision on your own basis- would be "Of Satan." To Usurp the role of Your Pastor (most certainly a Male) (capitalization intended) is set up as a Dangerous thing. NO free thought - please! I say these thinds, because I lived them, From the INSIDE! This was not some...FRINGE CULT... this was within the world of the Baptist/Pentecostal/Southern Fundamentalist Churches of the south and middle America. Ok...Tying those thoughts back to Morality issues- Bush used morality as a campaign- Because- it Could-Would be accepted Without Question!! From the preachers in the pulpits- To the Congregations- To the Polls- These people DO NOT flesh out their own thoughts. THEY DON'T. Morality- "I am GOOOOOD- He/They are EEEEEVIL..." is cheap, easy, and requires NO intelligent thought on the recieving end. And...it's easy for a not-too-bright candidate too!... Oh, I know what I've said is inflammitory... but I lived in it. Saw the sociology of it-Saw the psychology of it. Saw him "whipping up the crowds"... Saw the "Don't question your husband/pastor/president/Bible mentality. And it was SAD....and SO damaging. It took Years to recover. ~ Warmly, Megs SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: **SOUND BITES are easier to understand than FACTS And it appears that "weak-willed flip flopper" is the soundbite du jour, Robin - need I say more? Karl Rove is beaming with pride I'm sure. Bob NP: The Bad Plus, "Heart of Glass" SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote:**SOUND BITES are easier to understand than FACTS And it appears that "weak-willed flip flopper" is the soundbite du jour, Robin - need I say more? Karl Rove is beaming with pride I'm sure. Bob NP: The Bad Plus, "Heart of Glass" Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:15:19 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: I will jump in first (NJC) (Sorry...I typed in the wrong address and it came back to me so this is a delayed message) This day after the election is a very sad one or a very happy one depending on which candidate you were voting for. For me, it is a sad day but it is sad for more of a reason than the fact that my candidate lost the election. I've spoken to a lot of people today that have come in and out of the office and via email. Some were stanch democrats and some were staunch republicans. One thing we all agree on is that there is a rift, a chasm that we all are not sure can ever be bridged or repaired. That to me is the saddest fact of all. I still feel as strongly as I ever have on the issues and why I chose the candidate that I did, but I am asking myself what can I do to bridge the gap a little. I can practice tolerance even if I don't agree. I can look to my own life and see what I can do to make it what I want it to be. We only have one shot on this journey and I don't want to waste one more precious minute doing things I don't really want to do. I still have faith in this country but most of all, I have faith in myself. That is what matters most. My life is more than this election. It is more than my feelings towards either candidate. It is more than my feelings towards this election. I've made a conscious decision to move on with my life and make it the best it can be. I did everything I could to make a difference in the election. I am proud of that. Now it is time to take that same energy to do everything I can with my life. I hope that whether your candidate won or lost you will be able to do the same. I'm sorry that I don't know all the words, but I am singing the lyrics to Joni's song, "The Circle Game" and somehow, it's very comforting right now.... "And the seasons, they go round and round..and the painted pony goes up and down....(you finish it) Sherelle _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:25:04 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: BUSH again - i blame the gays - NJC thanks very much for sharing that, Megs. I guess I'm thinking that I'm glad you got out of that world. But I appreciate the insight. :) Em - --- Meggie Win wrote: > IMO- I think it was much more easy for MR.bush to pander to the > morality issue for several reasons- at least one of which will make > me sound like a serious bitch, I figure- > > Morality is EASY! (the bitchy part) it's EASY to go to the bible > belt, where critical thinking is NOT a valued asset. Seriously. > > - A part of my life I don't frequently share is this; at 18 I was > married to an (man!) older, southern tent preacher- who was fairly > well known in the south- still is. I met him in "Bible College" - and > was soundly abused for the duration of our 4 year marriage. My > experence on the "inside" of this world was eye-opening- to say the > least. > > One thing I saw a LOT of, that relates to this post is this- Within > the "church" or those of the baptist/pentecostal/fundamental life... > it is fairly across the board that one does NOT question ANYTHING > having to do with ....the "fleshing out" of intelligent arguments for > or against arguments that the "church" (ie: YOUR religious leaders) > has made a moral decision on. To do so- to Question- and make your > own decision on your own basis- would be "Of Satan." To Usurp the > role of Your Pastor (most certainly a Male) (capitalization intended) > is set up as a Dangerous thing. NO free thought - please! > > I say these thinds, because I lived them, From the INSIDE! This was > not some...FRINGE CULT... this was within the world of the > Baptist/Pentecostal/Southern Fundamentalist Churches of the south and > middle America. > > Ok...Tying those thoughts back to Morality issues- Bush used morality > as a campaign- Because- it Could-Would be accepted Without Question!! > From the preachers in the pulpits- To the Congregations- To the > Polls- These people DO NOT flesh out their own thoughts. THEY DON'T. > > Morality- "I am GOOOOOD- He/They are EEEEEVIL..." is cheap, easy, and > requires NO intelligent thought on the recieving end. > > And...it's easy for a not-too-bright candidate too!... > > Oh, I know what I've said is inflammitory... but I lived in it. Saw > the sociology of it-Saw the psychology of it. Saw him "whipping up > the crowds"... Saw the "Don't question your > husband/pastor/president/Bible mentality. > > And it was SAD....and SO damaging. It took Years to recover. > > ~ Warmly, > > Megs > > SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > **SOUND BITES are easier > to understand than FACTS > > And it appears that "weak-willed flip flopper" is the soundbite du > jour, > Robin - need I say more? Karl Rove is beaming with pride I'm sure. > > Bob > > NP: The Bad Plus, "Heart of Glass" > > SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote:**SOUND BITES are easier > to understand than FACTS > > > And it appears that "weak-willed flip flopper" is the soundbite du > jour, > Robin - need I say more? Karl Rove is beaming with pride I'm sure. > > Bob > > NP: The Bad Plus, "Heart of Glass" > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:32:10 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: USA only: SAVE THE COUNTRY!! njc I > think that proves that the JMDL is overwhelmingly not representative of "Main > Street America". > And Thank God for that! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:40:05 EST From: Rusty10113@aol.com Subject: Re: Homophobia rears its ugly head again sorry for the NJC but ... I couldn't agree more with bryan, or be more outraged that we're being bashed in public and it grabs votes in massive numbers... I've listened to "River" more than a few times the past 24 hours, and boy is it appropriate in my heart today... any sensitive, good hearted soul can't possibly accept this re-election 'stratgegy' as anything but immoral and disgusting, and you can bet it will lead to the kind of violence that I thought was hopefully--thanks to Ellen and Elton and Will & Grace, etc.-- a thing of the past ... my heart is heavy today, but my spirit is on fire! Mitch ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:07:33 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: njc Ooppss.. noticing how a little punctuation is missing to clarify my sentence that should read... "To the rest of the world here I just want to say we tried & I'm sorry! I did not vote for the man... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:08:56 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: what must it be like? NJC just sitting here wondering what it must be like - how it must feel, to feel good either a. supporting Bush, or b. tearing down Kerry. Referring to the "flip-flopping". Can't imagine thinking that it's better to have a leader who forges ahead with his folly, knowing it's wrong, and won't back off or get out of a deadly and inappropriate situation (Iraq), rather than "flip flop". I mean you can't even win football games that way. How's it going to work in "the world"? Sometimes you have to flip flop. I prefer a leader who can bend when it's expedient. Pliant and supple, rather than rigid, hard and brittle. Just my .02. Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:11:48 -0600 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: BUSH again - i blame the gays - NJC Sorry Mark. Not Quite. You forgot to capitalize the word fear. You forgot to add numerous tther words, facts and various other insults ;-) That would bring the tally up to about 15 million words. Nope. Just can't be done with 25. Wait! I get it now! The 25 word limit was so that BUSH could read and understand it! What took me so long to figure it out??? Steve p.s. Sorry Mark. I was wrong.... >>> "Mark or Travis" 11/03/04 08:13PM >>> robin mortlock wrote: > > I dont live in America but from all the anti-Bush feeling flying > around why has he got in again? Answers in under 25 words! I will tell you in 3 words. fear greed ignorance ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:21:07 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: BUSH again - i blame the gays - NJC Well I can't say that I am happy about the election results and that I don't feel apprehensive about the future. But I am also trying to keep in mind what Laura said at the end of 'Save the Country' on the Spread Your Wings and Fly cd. It was something like: "No matter how insane the world seems or how bad the times seem, the vibration that you people put into the world is very important. It all goes down in the book of life." We have to keep a positive vibration going out and try not to lose hope. Mark Steven Polifka wrote: > Sorry Mark. Not Quite. > You forgot to capitalize the word fear. > You forgot to add numerous tther words, facts > and various other insults ;-) > That would bring the tally up to about 15 million words. > Nope. Just can't be done with 25. > > Wait! > I get it now! > The 25 word limit was so that BUSH could read and understand it! > What took me so long to figure it out??? > > Steve > > p.s. Sorry Mark. I was wrong.... > > > > >>>> "Mark or Travis" 11/03/04 08:13PM >>> robin >>>> mortlock wrote: >> >> I dont live in America but from all the anti-Bush feeling flying >> around why has he got in again? Answers in under 25 words! > > I will tell you in 3 words. > > fear > greed > ignorance ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:29:54 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Homophobia rears its ugly head NJC >As usual, the problem is not homosexuals, it is homophobia< Gay rights have a long line of distinguished movements to look back on & receive inspiration from... the civil rights movement, the women's suffrage movement, etc... it is about standing up to small minded control freaks with pea brains who fear anything that does not look like them... I don't know what the democratic party is going to look like after this... I look at the current republican party & all they did to win at any cost... I suppose the temptation would be to look at the winners & try to emulate them a little (ala Rove's Machiavellian style) but I hope this does not happen because then we have lost our true progressive voice... almost half of this nation (or more if you want to count the non voters ) did not vote for this president...the one thing that angered me about Kerry & Edwards was how they tried to have it both ways on the gay marriage issue... the voice of at least half of our countries citizens is something that still needs to be articulated... great movements that make fundamental change takes times & struggle... maybe this seems naove as we face our own fears of what this next four years could yield... but I think its important to realize we're in this for the long haul & to keep speaking up for what is good & right & humane & compassionate because that gives others courage to do the same... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:35:09 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: i voted for bush NJC I added the NJC cuz the joni onlies don't like to get these off topic posts ... I think if you are going to complain about hatefulness & unkindness here that you ought not to be promoting it yourself... Dfrench "kerry/heinz is too much of an asshole for president....sorry" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:42:39 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: if the flip-flop fits ... (njc) >So I mused on where to move ... France is nice, I've always liked France. But then I realized that even if I were to do so, inevitably BushCo would launch a pre-emptive attack on France. - - -Fred< I have an idea! I think we should cut & paste all the blue states... c'mon all you northeast & upper Midwesterners... shove off & away! float around to the west coast here & we'll throw you out a line & then we can build a big fence along the eastern boarder of the west coast states & succeed from the union... red states can live happily ever after in their own little world & so can we... although we may have to get rid of ahnald first... :~} kate, left with only absurdity as a reality today.. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:50:08 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: [NortheastJonifest] New map. njc LOL hi five mingus I just posted a similar idea then read your email! Yours seems a lot more do-able. lol.. Cuz lolling & crying you know. _____ From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com [mailto:MINGSDANCE@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 4:58 AM To: joni@smoe.org; NortheastJonifest@yahoogroups.com Subject: [NortheastJonifest] New map. njc Click the link below for our new map. http://idisk.mac.com/glwebb-public/new_map.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:51:11 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: if the flip-flop fits ... (njc) kate has an idea!: <> kate? can i come, too? puuullllleeeeeezze? cindy, feeling blue, right in the middle of a red state ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:55:09 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: if the flip-flop fits ... (njc) Oh yes, our new country is open to all blue people! Hi smurf... > kate? can i come, too? puuullllleeeeeezze? cindy, feeling blue, right in the middle of a red state< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:05:32 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] Jonifest 2005 The Cruise Paz, I'm sorry to hear about your brother, I'll keep him in my prayers, love db >>> Michael Paz 11/3/2004 11:13:13 PM >>> I am getting cold feet about the whole concept at this point and it may because of everything else in my life right now, but I am thinking of getting with Donna and rethinking the timetable for this idea and waiting till 06 (which we already talked about as well as the shorter cruises, except for the fact that we both are into the long 7 day cruise combination Jonifest and chill vacation). IT'S NOT OVER YET THO!!! I am also hoping for other folk (LES!!!!!!) to come up with an alternative idea. I WILL be in Birmingham for the mini fest there! And I love the France idea but it is still to under developed (dates and details wise) for me to commit to at this point. Anyways I digress. My brother is quite ill in Detroit and I am may be descending on the city of my birth soon so all of you in the great state of Michigan beware! Love Paz NP-All kinds of shit in my heart and head and wishing I could be in L.A. This weekend if only to rip the halter top off that bitch Jimmy Stewart that he stole when he was in N.O. For Pazfest. Have fun you guys! > Donna, > I wish I would have read your post before I just sent my first one. > This is a great idea. Although I like 7 day cruises, a shorter cruise would > be a great way for people to experience their first cruise AND it's a lot > cheaper. > Thanks to you and Paz for investigating this alternative. > > Jimmy > > In a message dated 11/3/2004 12:05:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, > djb@binkleybarfield.com writes: > >> Here are a couple of alternative cruises that might be possible. They >> are shorter and therefore less expensive. Click on the link for details >> about the ship, the itinerary etc. >> >> SENSATION http://www.carnival.com/CMS/Ships/FunShips.aspx >> >> Departs Thursday, November 10, 2005 for four nights > This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:11:16 -0600 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: Homophobia rears its ugly head Instinctively i felt the same thing, yesterday, that i again would have to be more cautious about what & how I would present (myself) in public. Through all the presidencies, i have been nothing but myself. Niether lie nor deny, that was my 'theme'. The country is so polarized, i agree, but don't believe that in Milwaukee gay bashing will increase. The rumblings and political undercurrants will continue, but, that has always been. If indeed faith is power- that what we believe is manifest, than i must choose to stay focused and to think positive thoughts. My often sarcastic and sometimes tasteless humour about church and Bible thumper sheep is only a defensive action from all the crap I've dealt with in my former christian life. I make no apologies, though. None. Everytime i hear about some blatherings i have to say something, appropriate or not. Megs just confirmed that I need to keep on reminding everyone- outside the list- what a farce the church is. How is that positive? You need to plant a seed before you get a tree... But for now, i will be cautious in the outside world. Each step i take I'LL be watching them... Steve, still with some faith in people... >>> 11/04/04 08:40AM >>> again sorry for the NJC but ... I couldn't agree more with bryan, or be more outraged that we're being bashed in public and it grabs votes in massive numbers... I've listened to "River" more than a few times the past 24 hours, and boy is it appropriate in my heart today... any sensitive, good hearted soul can't possibly accept this re-election 'stratgegy' as anything but immoral and disgusting, and you can bet it will lead to the kind of violence that I thought was hopefully--thanks to Ellen and Elton and Will & Grace, etc.-- a thing of the past ... my heart is heavy today, but my spirit is on fire! Mitch ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:18:04 -0600 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: if the flip-flop fits ... (njc) I was very surprised that Kerry took Wisconsin's retrograde residents. Milwaukee is so bass-ackwards sometime that i just can't stand it! So, what's the projected route? Take the Mississippi? Past argentina and the penguins to the Baja Peninsula? I'll get right on it! Stevo >>> "Cynthia Vickery" 11/04/04 09:51AM >>> kate has an idea!: <> kate? can i come, too? puuullllleeeeeezze? cindy, feeling blue, right in the middle of a red state ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:36:58 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: virus (njc) folks, my norton is updated. i scan my computer every day. norton says it's not infected. i'm getting as many messages from other listers as you get from me. how can this be happening? this is creepy and i don't understand it. wally ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:53:18 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: Jonifest 2005 The Cruise Would love to see one in New Orleans. mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donna Binkley" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 11:10 AM Subject: Jonifest 2005 The Cruise > Hi Everyone, > > Thanks so much to everyone who has responded so far about the > possibility of a Jonifest 2005 Cruise. > > Many people have expressed that the cruise is too expensive or that > they would just like to meet in New Orleans instead. > > Anyone who would be interested in choosing to come to New Orleans and > not the cruise - or vice versa could absolutely do so. > > Here are a couple of alternative cruises that might be possible. They > are shorter and therefore less expensive. Click on the link for details > about the ship, the itinerary etc. > > SENSATION http://www.carnival.com/CMS/Ships/FunShips.aspx > > Departs Thursday, November 10, 2005 for four nights > Category 4A - Inside Cabin on Riviera Deck with possible upgrade to > higher deck > $280 per person non-charity > $300 pp ($20 goes to charity - Carnival will match $20) > Category 6A - Oceanview on Riviera Deck with possible upgrade to > higher > deck $330 per person non-charity > $350 pp ($20 goes to charity - Carnival will match $20) > > 4A cabin guarantee - 3rd/4th person is $100 pp cruise only > 6A cabin guarantee - 3rd/4th person is $120 pp cruise only > Suite guarantee - 1st/2nd person is $650 pp cruise only - 3rd/4th > person is $120 pp > > Additionally, port charges, taxes and government fees will run $116.12 > per person. > Gratuities will run $10pp per day = $40 pp > Optional insurance = $49 per adult/$29 per child under 16 > > > SENSATION > Departs Monday, November 14, 2005 for five nights > Category 4A - Inside Cabin on Riviera Deck with possible upgrade to > higher deck > $250 per person non-charity > $275 pp ($25 goes to charity - Carnival will match $25) > Category 6A - Oceanview on Riviera Deck with possible upgrade to > higher > deck $300 per person non-charity > $325 pp ($25 goes to charity - Carnival will match $25) > > 4A cabin guarantee - 3rd/4th person is $110 pp cruise only > 6A cabin guarantee - 3rd/4th person is $130 pp cruise only > Suite guarantee - 1st/2nd person is $730 pp cruise only - 3rd/4th > person is $130 pp > > Additionally, port charges, taxes and government fees will run $145.08 > per person. > Gratuities will run $10pp per day = $50 pp > Optional insurance = $59 per adult/$39 per child under 16 > > Please let us know what you think. > > Love Donna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:01:12 +0100 From: Moni Kellermann Subject: Re: virus (njc) Wally Kairuz schrieb: > my norton is updated. i scan my computer every day. norton says it's not > infected. i'm getting as many messages from other listers as you get from > me. > how can this be happening? > this is creepy and i don't understand it. Most mail viruses collect all kinds of addresses from infected computers by scanning mails, address books and other documents. They then randomly grab some address and put it up as a fake sender address. They use all addresses to spread the virus to. Besides, viruses install their own mail-spamming program and don't use your mail client. So even if you SEEM to be the sender of a virus, you are not. In this case there was probably some infected computer that had both your address and that of the joni-list somewhere. Don't worry. It's not your fault and there is nothing you can do about it. moni ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:13:02 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: Homophobia rears its ugly head njc I have no intention of backing down in any arena. If they want a fight, they have one. I will not go back. I have the rights and will take them. They can kiss my ass. The only way to get what we deserve is to take it cause they ain't gonna give it willingly. mack : Cc: Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Homophobia rears its ugly head > Instinctively i felt the same thing, yesterday, that i again would have > to be more cautious about what & how I would present (myself) in public. > Through all the presidencies, i have been nothing but myself. Niether > lie nor deny, that was my 'theme'. > > The country is so polarized, i agree, but don't believe that in > Milwaukee gay bashing will increase. The rumblings and political > undercurrants will continue, but, that has always been. > > If indeed faith is power- that what we believe is manifest, than i must > choose to stay focused and to think positive thoughts. > > My often sarcastic and sometimes tasteless humour about church and > Bible thumper sheep is only a defensive action from all the crap I've > dealt with in my former christian life. I make no apologies, though. > None. Everytime i hear about some blatherings i have to say something, > appropriate or not. Megs just confirmed that I need to keep on reminding > everyone- outside the list- what a farce the church is. > > How is that positive? You need to plant a seed before you get a > tree... > > But for now, i will be cautious in the outside world. Each step i take > I'LL be watching them... > > Steve, still with some faith in people... > > > > > >>> 11/04/04 08:40AM >>> > again sorry for the NJC but ... I couldn't agree more with bryan, or be > more > outraged that we're being bashed in public and it grabs votes in > massive > numbers... I've listened to "River" more than a few times the past 24 > hours, and > boy is it appropriate in my heart today... any sensitive, good hearted > soul > can't possibly accept this re-election 'stratgegy' as anything but > immoral and > disgusting, and you can bet it will lead to the kind of violence that I > thought > was hopefully--thanks to Ellen and Elton and Will & Grace, etc.-- a > thing of > the past ... my heart is heavy today, but my spirit is on fire! > > Mitch ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:55:11 -0800 From: Mike Friedman Subject: NJC on the list? hey all, please indicate when you're just writing about politics. I agree with most of ya'll about this stuff, but indicate when it's NJC, please. Thanks. Mike ========================== "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)" - --Walt Whitman Mike Friedman San Francisco, CA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:09:32 -0000 From: "Azeem" Subject: A view from afar njc What a lot of people here (ie the UK) are wondering is how the democrats started off with some highly charismatic potential nominees (Dean, Edwards, Clark) and ended up with Kerry, who for all his virtues never seemed likely to fire the imagination in the same way. I remember thinking at the time that it seemed an odd choice. Anyway, what with the new old regime embarking on their second term, you may want to check out the White Houses revamped web site... (warning, contains iffy language): HYPERLINK "http://www.whitehouse.org/"http://www.whitehouse.org/ Azeem in London - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 01/11/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:12:45 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: virus (njc) thanks moni! now that you've explained it, it makes a lot more sense. wally > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Moni Kellermann [mailto:kellerfrau@gmx.de] > Enviado el: Jueves, 04 de Noviembre de 2004 02:01 p.m. > Para: Wally Kairuz; joni@smoe.org > Asunto: Re: virus (njc) > > > Wally Kairuz schrieb: > > my norton is updated. i scan my computer every day. norton says it's not > > infected. i'm getting as many messages from other listers as > you get from > > me. > > how can this be happening? > > this is creepy and i don't understand it. > > Most mail viruses collect all kinds of addresses from infected computers > by scanning mails, address books and other documents. They then randomly > grab some address and put it up as a fake sender address. They use all > addresses to spread the virus to. > > Besides, viruses install their own mail-spamming program and don't use > your mail client. > > So even if you SEEM to be the sender of a virus, you are not. > In this case there was probably some infected computer that had both > your address and that of the joni-list somewhere. > > Don't worry. It's not your fault and there is nothing you can do about it. > > > moni ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 19:00:13 +0000 From: "robin mortlock" Subject: RE: i blame the gays - NJC Em wrote: Many very simpleminded Americans are like herd animals in that they band together with the "bulliest" male and they think that makes them safer. Thats my take on it. :) Em ps: now, why do you blame the gays - even kiddingly? you mean because if we had kept "our issue" down, maybe some more would have voted for Kerry? That Kerry lost votes because he was too liberal on what they keep referring to as moral values? or??? I know you were kidding - but wondering what you meant. Because, actually that very line of thinking occured to me too. ::shrug:: not sure. Might have been worth it. Robin Writes - dont know too much about what was actually said during election run-up time but i realise the issue of same sex marriage posed a 'tactical' problem for Kerry - or anyone opposing Bush. It's a risk because its a minority vote and the more 'liberal' non gays might still feel like 'herd animals' and follow the bully....because at the end of the day if your not gay who really cares if you can get married or not. So Bush could easily say NO to same sex marriage confident that he'll get all the right wingers and undeciders/uncarers and those narrow minded moralists who see offering equal rights to gays as the little boy pulling his finger out of the dyke (excuse the pun - i had to!) causing a flood of sin and what-not to drown the obviously high ideals that american people hold dear - like justice and freedom and personal expression (!) So really if kerry had come all out in favour of same sex issues i dont think he'd of got in anyway - hence 'just kidding' - i think fear and ignorance and the general isolated/inherited imperialist mentality that seems rife among the american gene pool has more to do with Bush's victory than a gay issue.....but then the ol' homo thing really gets their goat. one more thing - why is this situation still referred to as a 'war' - ? - - seems very curious to me... robin "fiction of the image and the imagemaker.." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar MSN Toolbar Get it now! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:20:40 -0500 From: dsk Subject: [Fwd: Don't Mourn, Organize] NJC PC The idea of having the Bushies in office for another four years is so disgusting, enraging and anxiety-provoking that I'm not thinking about much else. I go between mourning, anger and fear for all of us in this meanspirited time that is only going to get worse. Bush acted as though he had a mandate four years ago when he didn't even legitimately win and didn't get the popular vote. There is nothing this time, not the Republican (and even more right-wing now) Congress, not the Supreme Court (which was the only brake upon his agenda in the past four years), not a re-election (or a choosing) coming up, nothing to hold the Bushies back from doing whatever the radical right-wing wants. Especially now that Bush can select Supreme Court justices (and soon because Rehnquist is so sick), the damage resulting from this election will be felt for decades. Disgusting! So disgusting I don't believe it! I don't trust the Bushies and so I don't trust the election results even though the mainstream media (and most Democrats) are not questioning the results at all. I am. I don't think it's by accident that for the second national election in a row the exit polls did not match the actual results. Such polls are considered a guideline, but they were not so completely wrong in pre-2000 elections. I doubt that pollsters have any interest in being so inaccurate. If anything their techniques would have improved. I fully expect a couple of years from now that some Diebold employee with a conscience or a drunken Bushie full of pride at getting what he wanted will let us know how they managed to do it. And by then it will be too late. Thousands more people will have died. Millions more will be in poverty and dying for lack of health care. People who voted for Bush and who feel secure now, just wait! Your lives and well-being are on the line also unless you happen to be a wealthy white protestant heterosexual male. Even among that group, I know a few who actually have a social conscience, and who realize that if so many people are suffering, then we are all suffering. Moral issues are so important??!! How about the morality of killing 100,000 Iraqis? How about the morality of denigrating huge groups of citizens in order to advance the conservative agenda, whether it's using gay rights this time or the on-going claim that minorities take all the benefits away from hard-working white people? How about the morality of drug companies and insurance companies, with the blessing and help of the Bushies, ripping off U.S. citizens? How about the morality of CEOs becoming billionaires and the Bushies trying to get rid of overtime pay for millions of workers? How about the morality of workers' taxes becoming the main financial support of this country while the investment class gets the tax breaks? All of that is what the Bush supporters have said yes to. So, anyone who voted for Bush, and who believed the simple-minded flip-flop phrase they kept repeating and who didn't bother to look beyond that, when you start feeling the consequences of your vote, you be sure to let us know. Okay? In the meantime, I'll try my best to avoid calling you stupid, ignorant, easily manipulated, and cowardly, but it won't be easy. And to any wounded-by-that Bush supporter... you think my attitude is hateful? Listen to Rush Limbaugh or any other of your smirking conservative talking heads for two minutes, and then see if in good conscience you can complain about my negative feelings toward you. At least I'm giving reasons for why I feel as I do (as opposed, for example, to a Bush voter who's reasoning was: "kerry/heinz is too much of an asshole for president"; hey, dfrench, "sorry" doesn't cut it). Your side has learned that name-calling, insulting, lying and keeping it all very simple works wonders for you. In the meantime, people with clearer heads than mine are sending the info below to people on their mailing list, and since it's hopeful, I'm passing it along. Debra Shea, in NYC UFPJ Action Alerts wrote: > > ACTION ALERT * UNITED FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE > http://www.unitedforpeace.org | 212-868-5545 > To subscribe, visit http://www.unitedforpeace.org/email > =========================================== > DONT MOURN, ORGANIZE > In the wake of Bushs election, time to regroup and take the long view: > The bad news is obvious and awful, > but the good news is that our movement continues to grow > =========================================== > > Here at United for Peace and Justice we share with millions of people around the country  and millions more around the world  a sense of horror about what happened on election day. The largest grassroots electoral mobilization in memory was not strong enough to unseat George W. Bush. We are upset by the outcome, and disgusted that the politics of fear have been so fine-tuned by Karl Rove and company. We are outraged by the voter intimidation, vote suppression, and other tactics of disenfranchisement used before and on November 2. > > But we are not totally surprised by the outcome of this election. For more than 40 years the right wing has been planning, organizing, fund raising, and executing strategies for taking control of this country. With George W. Bush and the so-called war on terror, they have found the perfect instrument for consolidating their power. > > Weve known for a long time what we are up against. We worked with all our might to stop the U.S. from going to war against Iraq, but we could not prevent it, even with 10 million people taking to the streets simultaneously around the world on February 15, 2003. We have all been working hard to end that war and occupation and to bring the troops home, and even though the lies behind the war have been exposed, we have not yet succeeded. > > At the same time, every day we are inspired by the outpouring of energy and creativity around the country. In the past few years the peace and justice movement has been re-ignited: vigils, rallies, and marches in hundreds of cities; a rich outpouring of cultural dissent; activism in schools, workplaces, and places of worship; and some of the most massive mobilizations our country has ever seen. Just this past August 29, at least 500,000 people marched in New York City on the eve of the Republican National Convention. And in these past two months vast numbers of people put their time into an unprecedented grassroots electoral mobilization, including voter registration, voter education, get-out-the-vote and election protection campaigns. > > Our long-term hope lies in this grassroots upsurge, and to win, we need to take the long-term view. No, the Bush Agenda was not defeated on Nov. 2, and we share the frustration and anger of so many activists. But the truth is that the progressive social change community...the peace and justice movement...is not yet strong enough to successfully change those in power. > > That does not mean we are giving up or going away. On the contrary: As we take a moment to catch our breath, and get some needed rest, we are already beginning to sort through the lessons of this election and our recent past. In the days and weeks ahead we'll all see lots of analysis about what happened. We encourage you to organize discussions about what happened in the election, and where we should be headed as a movement. > > United for Peace and Justice always knew that our work to end the occupation of Iraq would not be immediately affected by the outcome of the presidential race. We are preparing to move into a period of much more focused organizing on the Iraq war, working with local groups around the country on implementing plans to reach the people we don't usually talk to. As that work unfolds, we are exploring ways to strengthen the impact of our mobilizations, including planning for activities that might make it harder for those in charge to actually carry out this war. > > Look for new organizing materials from us in the near future, as well as resources for deepening the discussion and expanding our grassroots base. In the meantime, we encourage you to keep the fighting spirit alive by displaying one of our Say No to the Bush Agenda flags or t-shirts, available through http://www.unitedforpeace.org/merchandise > > As the nation begins to look back on the election of 2004, we remain committed to looking ahead. The United for Peace and Justice coalition of more than 800 national organizations and local groups has tremendous potential. Working together has made it possible for us to make a significant contribution to the larger social change movement. The months and years ahead will not be easy, but we are hopeful that our common efforts will bring us closer toward a world where justice triumphs and peace prevails. > > United for Peace and Justice ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #448 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)