From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #418 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, October 13 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 418 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: How Joni did on WXPN's Top 885 Songs/David Dye "gets" Joni ["Timothy ] Re: How Joni did on WXPN's Top 885 Songs ... /absence of RLJ, CS, EH ["Ti] Re: Joni (?) and Judy on Dolly's upcoming CD/ Harris, not Raitt ["Timothy] Joni as Vietnamese and 'Willy" [Em ] Joni's Songwriting. NJC [BRIANASYMES@aol.com] Re: using the church, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Joni's songwriting - American or Universal? now NJC really [mags h ] Re: njc using the church [Catherine McKay ] Re: using the church, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Joni as Vietnamese and 'Willy" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Dylan interview NJC [BRYAN8847@aol.com] More Dylan NJC [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Sam Phillips NJC [BRYAN8847@aol.com] re ;a silly question njc ["dfrench" ] Re: Emmylou Linda and Dolly NJC Joni Rose update ["Ron" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:07:50 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: RE: How Joni did on WXPN's Top 885 Songs/David Dye "gets" Joni Exactly right, Jim ("Lama"). For those that may be unfamiliar, D. Dye is host of the "World Cafe" program that is produced at WXPN and syndicated via Public Radio International to other public radio stations. At the end of each hour's segment, David's recorded voice thanks their partners and names two of the radio stations that carry it -- the announcements and the stations cited rotate -- including at least one in Alaska, one in Minnesota, one in Spindale, N.C., and one in Baltimore, which I also am able to hear some of the time. Others at WXPN "get" Joni, too, including: Morning host Michaela Majoun, who was the introducer when Joni et al. performed at what was then the E-Center, now the Tweeter Center, in Camden, N.J. (right across the Delaware River from Philadelphia, Pa.) as the last stop on the "Both Sides Now" tour, and, as I have observed before, sometimes refers to Joni, seemingly only half-jokingly, as "the goddess"; Midday host and, I think, music director Helen Leicht (say "light"), on whose Leicht Lunch request segment today the first request was "Song for Sharon"; Gene Shay, host for the Sunday-evening folk-music program and the Philadelphia area's grand old man of folk music. I think one or more past on-air interview of J.M. by G.S. are in the jmdl library. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. >From: >To: >Subject: How Joni did on WXPN's Top 885 Songs Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 >1:44:41 -0400 > >Cool. You may already know that David Dye of WXPN "gets" Joni. He plays >her tracks (and her songs covered by others) and he does very well when >interviewing her over the years. He asks intellegent questions. > >Jim > >From: "Timothy Spong" >Subject: How Joni did on WXPN's Top 885 Songs of All Time (listener poll) > >Fellow Jonilistas, > >WXPN, the adult-album-alternative-format radio station affiliated with the >University of Pennsylvania (for our international members: U of P is NOT a >state or state-related school. It was founded by Benjamin Franklin as >Pennsylvania Academy and is private and a member of the Ivy League) to >which >I frequently refer, as it is where I usually hear Joni on radio, recently >moved to a new building and, as part of the celebration, held a listeners' >poll to determine "The Top 885 Songs of All Time" (the station's broadcast >frequency is 88.5 MHz). The method was for listeners to nominate their >respective top 10; then, all were compiled. Full disclosure: I am not a >person of sharply defined and readily ordered favorites; therefore, I did >not vote. Anyhow, while, from the nominations read on the air, some voted >for types of music well outside the scope of what WXPN nornally broadcasts, >e.g., classical and operatic, none of those made it into the top 885, but >some pop/rock outside the type they normally broadcast, except maybe when >doing a special tracing the history of rock and roll, e.g., "Free Bird" >(Lynyrd Skynyrd) and "Walking In the Rain" (Ronettes), did. > >Most of you will probably be pleased that 16 of Joni's own recordings made >it into the list, if not with how low some of them placed: > _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:13:38 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: Re: How Joni did on WXPN's Top 885 Songs ... /absence of RLJ, CS, EH While I wasn't watching for those names, I think you are correct, Mark. RLJ and EH get a fair amount of attention and airplay at the station, however; not so much for Carly. Remember that the poll was not scientifically selected, but self-selected; and that each voter submitted a personal Top 10, which was compiled into a grand total of 885, but did not necessarily reflect what any individual voter might have put into her/his Top 885, or Top 100, or Top 50, or Top 20, other than the Top 10. Other things that have been played or announced on air and may be posted somewhere on the station's Web site are what was "bubbling under the Top 885," and staff and musical celebrity picks. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. >From: "Mark or Travis" >To: "Timothy Spong" , >Subject: Re: How Joni did on WXPN's Top 885 Songs of All Time (listener >poll) >Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:54:15 -0700 > >Timothy Spong wrote: > > Fellow Jonilistas, > > > > WXPN, the adult-album-alternative-format radio station affiliated > > with the University of Pennsylvania (for our international members: U > > of P is NOT a state or state-related school. It was founded by > > Benjamin Franklin as Pennsylvania Academy and is private and a member > > of the Ivy League) to which I frequently refer, as it is where I > > usually hear Joni on radio, recently moved to a new building and, as > > part of the celebration, held a listeners' poll to determine "The Top > > 885 Songs of All Time" (the station's broadcast frequency is 88.5 > > MHz). > >I didn't see one song by Rickie Lee Jones or Carly Simon. I don't think >there was anything by >Emmylou Harris either. > >Mark E in Seattle > _________________________________________________________________ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:15:47 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: Re: Joni (?) and Judy on Dolly's upcoming CD/ Harris, not Raitt Of course, Catherine. Thanks for setting the record straight. I had doubt as I posted it -- see my parenthetical insert -- and then, I thought of Emmylou either yesterday or today before reading your post. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. >From: Catherine McKay >To: Timothy Spong , joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Joni (?) and Judy on Dolly's upcoming CD >Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:19:59 -0400 (EDT) > > --- Timothy Spong wrote: > > > Comment: Maybe not. Dolly Parton has been known > > lately for collaborative > > albums, including two (I think) with Linda Rondstadt > > and Bonnie Raitt (I > > think; someone please correct me if incorrect). > >Dolly Parton got together with Emmylou Harris and >Linda Ronstadt as "Trio" and they made at least one, >maybe two, albums together. > >I think it would be very cool if Joni got together >with Dolly. Would it be original material, I wonder? >would it all be Dolly's stuff? Maybe Joni and Dolly >could do, "You turn me on, I'm a radio" which is the >one that springs to my mind right off the top as her >most "country" song. Or maybe "Raised on robbery." > >And on the topic of whether or not country music >incites people to suicide (I'm behind in reading & >everything else), would it not occur to these people >who do these so-called studies that maybe it's not >country music that drives people to suicide, but that >depressive people often listen to sad music - and it >doesn't get much more hurtin' than country music. A >lot of people think Joni is depressing too. > > > >===== >Catherine >Toronto >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca _________________________________________________________________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 17:31:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Joni as Vietnamese and 'Willy" someone had mentioned "Willy". (and I don't even remember the context because, well, because my brain is sieve-like sometimes. But, anyway, that merged in my mind with the idea of Joni-songs being pan-human if not downright "universal". And I flashed on the image of a woman in the far east somewhere, living in a rural area. Maybe farming rice and with water buffaloes in the background... and her singing "Willy". It could happen! and be very profound...joy and sorrow are, after all, something we all share. We all wonder to some extent about our lovers/mates/pelvic affiliates. I could also hear an oriental version of "Willy" blasting tinny from those tons of invisible and sh_te sounding speakers in "Blade Runner" in the interminable dreck-rain. hmmm.... ok thanks for letting me say all that.... Em ===== - ---------- "But Mona Lisa musta had the highway blues You can tell by the way she smiles" Bob D. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:26:05 EDT From: BRIANASYMES@aol.com Subject: Joni's Songwriting. NJC Having something in common with Joni helps understand a little. I carried a lot of shining Lizzies as a youth in Ontario always saving up for comic books and crispycrunch candy bars to eat, while reading about Superman's latest battle with Lex Luthor. I also watched the sun falling down into the Sulfur dioxide haze of Detroit at Rondeau on Lake Erie it made for glorious sunsets. When the Blue CD came out I would listen over and over to Little Green and felt that this Mysterious loss she felt might be the root or well that nourished the Polyhymnia in Joni. The other is the Gypsy life she lived and wrote so well about in the songs of Hejira. The American dream rolled over the rest of my life but I will always have the dream of Rondeau on the shores of Lake Erie dreaming about the moonlit walk down the beach with a Canadian blonde that melted my heart by saying "Can I go sailing on your boat tomorrow aye!" Brian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:44:56 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: using the church, njc Vince quoted a long and rather depressing article that said, "I can't think of another time in recent political history where a political party and a campaign have paid more attention to faithful Catholics," Mr. Leo said. Hi Vince! Below is another long one that has some excellent information in it concerning the bishops and Sen. Kerry. Enjoy and be hopeful! Love, Laura Q: What is the U.S. Catholic Bishops' official position on Senator Kerry or President Bush? A: The official position of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops is presented in the document, Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to Political Responsibility. The U.S. Catholic Bishops' make the following statement: "As bishops, we seek to form the consciences of our people. We do not wish to instruct persons on how they should vote by endorsing or opposing candidates. We hope that voters will examine the position of candidates on the full range of issues, as well as on their personal integrity, philosophy, and performance. We are convinced that a consistent ethic of life should be the moral framework from which to address issues in the political arena." Q: Some Bishops have said that Senator Kerry and Catholics who support him should not receive holy communion. Will Senator Kerry and his supporters be prevented from receiving communion? A: Individual Catholic Bishops have expressed conflicting views on whether Senator Kerry and his supporters can or should receive holy communion due to political affiliation and conviction. Some have explicitly said that Senator Kerry and/or his supporters should not receive communion because Senator Kerry is pro-choice. However, Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington, D.C., Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles, Cardinal William Keeler of Baltimore, Archbishop Pilarcyzk of Cincinnati, and Bishop William Skylstad of Washington, have expressed the opposing view, i.e., that the Eucharist should not be used as a tool of sanction and that they would not deny Senator Kerry holy communion in their dioceses. Other Bishops such as Bishop Tafoya of Pueblo, CO and Bishop Gerald Kicanas of Tucson, have also publicly stated that they would not deny communion to pro-choice politicians and Catholics, including Senator Kerry. Gaudium et Spes, a document of the Second Vatican Council, says in Chapter 2 ' 28, "God alone is the judge and searcher of hearts: he forbids us to pass judgment on the inner guilt of others." The only person who is in a position to know if Senator Kerry is in the right disposition at the time of communion is Senator Kerry and, of course, the Lord. No other human being is in a position to pass judgment on the state of Senator Kerry's interior life. If there is a concern of scandal, and disciplinary action is imposed on Senator Kerry's sacramental life, then to be fair, it must be applied uniformly to all people and all similar "offenses" (e.g., legislators who support the death penalty, stem cell research, euthanasia, unjust wars, as well as those who neglect the needs of the poor, also to Catholic lawyers who assist in divorces). However, it seems clear that any action specifically and exclusively targeting Senator Kerry's sacramental life in a punitive way would only cause further scandal and abuse the image of the Eucharist because the sacrament then appears to be a tool of partisanship and political manipulation, rather than community, unity and reconciliation. Q: Should Catholics be single-issue voters, i.e., only vote for the pro-life candidate? A: No. The U.S. Catholic Bishop's document, Faithful Citizenship says: "We hope that voters will examine candidates on the full range of issues and on personal integrity, philosophy and performance." Cardinal Theodore McCarrick: "the church is not a single-issue institution,' he said. 'One (issue) may be primary, but there are many issues that have to be considered. There are probably people who are with us on one issue but against us on many other issues. All these things have to be weighed very carefully - -- without giving anybody any direction on how they should vote,' he said." Catholic News Service. Bishop Tafoya of the Diocese of Pueblo, CO: Pueblo Roman Catholic Bishop Arthur Tafoya has called on his flock this election year to consider not just abortion but also poverty, war, the death penalty and working for peace and justice. The bishop's admonition comes on the heels of statements from two other Colorado bishops that more narrowly defined the critical questions facing Catholic voters. "There is a lot of confusion among people," said Larry Howe-Kerr, director of the Pueblo diocese's office of social justice. He called Tafoya's advice in keeping with " a consistent ethic of life." Tafoya noted that in light of today's social climate and tough issues, Catholics and people of goodwill can feel "politically homeless." Tafoya calls abortion "an affront to life" but adds: "Respect for life is also confronted by hunger and poverty, the death penalty, euthanasia, war and, as we see today, torture." DenverPost.com, May 20, 2001. Q: Is Senator Kerry pro-choice? A: Senator Kerry is pro-choice, i.e., he believes that a woman's right to choose is protected by the Constitution, but he has frequently cited his personal opposition to abortion. Q: I am a Catholic and my views on social justice issues correspond with those of the Democratic Party, however I am unabashedly pro-life. Can I be a Democrat and still be pro-life? A: Yes. The Democratic Party is frequently described as a "large tent" which includes people with various and differing convictions, even on the issue of choice and abortion. Many Democrats describe themselves as pro-choice and very many describe themselves as pro-life. Q: What difference is there, if any, between pro-choice and pro-abortion? A: Pro-choice is not pro-abortion. Pro-choice means that one believes that freedom is necessary for full human dignity and that human beings are generally competent and responsible and should be trusted to make intensely personal choices on issues that impact their lives. This choice includes the right of a woman to make the very personal, private and often gut-wrenching decision about her pregnancy. A pro-abortion position would refer to a position that sees abortion per se as a positive and good thing and advocates it as such. Very few, if any, pro-choice advocates are pro-abortion. Most pro-choice advocates are simply advocating the right for women to have that freedom to choose, which is not the same thing as promoting abortions. The emphasis is on restoring the dignity of women and empowering women to have a say in issues that affect them. It is important to distinguish between a legislator passing a just law and an individual exercising her rights as protected by that law, even though the individual's actions may be sinful. There is a degree of separation between the legislator and the individual sinful act. Politicians supporting pro-choice legislation are simply protecting a civil right. The law does not mandate nor encourage abortions. Individuals choosing abortions are responsible for their own choices. Consider the civil right to free speech, endorsed as a human right by Pope John XXIII, protected by the First Amendment. Legislators support and protect this right, but individuals may use it in a negative and sinful way. The legislators cannot be held responsible for the choices and actions of the individuals exercising their rights as protected by the law. To say that pro-choice is pro-abortion is similar to saying that pro-free speech is pro-blasphemy. Even in Catholic moral theology, to be directly culpable there has to be formal cooperation with the specific act, i.e., agreement with the specific intention of the individual committing a sin. There are so many degrees of separation between a legislator and an actual abortion that there is no basis for attributing any kind of sin to the lawmaker. It would be similar to calling President Bush a torturer because his policies are ultimately responsible for the recent Iraqi-prisoner abuse scandal. Obviously, regardless of what you think about President Bush's war policy, the degrees of separation are so far that it would a stretch to hold him directly responsible for the actions of those particular soldiers involved. Pro-choice legislators are fighting for a good thing, the dignity of women. Unfortunately abortion is an area in which the uniqueness of the relationship between mother and unborn child presents a unique situation that must be addressed. The question for us as Christians is how do we protect the dignity of both the mother and the unborn child? Many feel that simply making abortion illegal would accomplish that. However, many others believe that the afore-mentioned approach is counter-productive in that it fights for the dignity of the unborn child by attacking that of the mother. It has always been clear that the welfare of the child, born or unborn, is directly tied to the well-being of the mother. Many believe that by doing the hard work of improving women's lives, addressing social conditions that weigh on women as they contemplate terminating their pregnancies, we can best promote a culture of life, a way of thinking and acting, along with structural societal changes, that are more accommodating to the life and dignity of both mother and unborn child. The protection of rights certainly should extend to the unborn, but as mentioned earlier, we have a situation unique in nature--the mother-child relationship. We cannot reduce that relationship to a zero-sum game, in which to protect the mother's rights we violate the rights of the unborn child, nor can we fight for the rights of the unborn by violating the civil rights and dignity of the mother. This is why we have to find creative ways, consistent with the dignity of both, to fight for both mother and child, albeit, knowing that the time-tested way to protect children is through their mothers. Q: Isn't the pro-choice position saying abortion is moral? A: No. The pro-choice position holds that abortion should be legal because it is consistent with the Constitution and also with the dignity of women to have that choice. The pro-choice position is not advocating abortions as moral. Most pro-choice advocates acknowledge that it is a very worthy goal to reduce the number of abortions. Many pro-life Democrats believe that there are ways to promote a culture of life without seeking to make abortion illegal and taking choice from women. Archbishop Pilarczyk, in an interview with the National Catholic Reporter also makes some interesting comments in this vein. The pro-choice position is a legal position which says that it should not be illegal for a woman to make such a choice if she believes it is in her best interest. To say something should be legal is not necessarily saying it is moral. There are very important reasons to preserve our legal system and not merge it with the law of the Church. The role of the law in secular society is to provide a structure for human beings to flourish. To flourish, human beings need a system of justice, the opportunity to freely use their intellect and will, and the ability to enjoy life as a community. The role of the law is not to determine morality, otherwise there would much confusion as to whose system of morality to impose, i.e., Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, etc. This would also mean that the State would then become a vehicle for the Church's religious mission. Many Islamic countries in the Middle East, as we see frequently, merge religion and State with unfortunate results. Afghanistan (Taliban regime), Iran and Saudi Arabia are or have been examples of states in which there is no separation between Church and State, thus creating a flawed legal system that does not fully respect human dignity, i.e., freedom of speech, freedom of religion, women's rights, etc. The problems of not separating Church and State are not unique to Islam, in fact, it was the dreadful lessons of Christian Europe prior to the 17th century, the carnage caused by religious wars, the pogroms that wiped out thousands of Jews, instigated by religious motives, that provided the impetus for a State not subordinate to the desires of the Church. Salvation of souls is not the States responsibility or competence. The Church/religion seeks the salvation of souls and is best suited for that task not the State. To turn the State into an institution to do the Church's work has always resulted in gross violations of human rights. The concerns of the founding Fathers regarding the separation of Church and State still remain. If the purpose of the law was to determine morality in the Catholic sense, then a number of freedoms we take for granted would be jeopardized. For instance, it would be illegal to divorce because sacramental marriages can never be dissolved and the Catechism of the Catholic Church calls divorce "immoral." It would also be illegal to enter into a second marriage without the Church's blessing. As we've seen in some predominantly Catholic societies, divorce was illegal for a very long time, Chile being the most recent country to make divorce legal. Also, the use of contraception or contraceptive devices would be illegal. Free speech, which we as Americans, understand as vital to freedoms in any society, would be severely curtailed if we did separate Church and State. There are many things that we can and do say that jeopardize our salvation and the salvation of those around us. If the State adopted the mission of the Church, the care of our souls, then there would be no free speech in order to prevent us from saying things that were sinful. As Americans, we understand that not every choice made or speech uttered is of supreme moral value, but we understand that the freedom granted by the Constitution is a pre-eminent value consistent with human dignity and such freedoms ultimately lead to a better, stronger, and more human society. Making the distinction between the role of the State and that of the Church is important as we move forward in this election season. The State's role is to provide the appropriate laws for a pluralistic society in which the rights and dignity of everyone is respected. The role of the State's secular law is to protect the common good so that each individual, as part of a community, can flourish. Q: Abortion is an intrinsically evil act. Shouldn't State law prohibit all intrinsically evil acts? A: Contraception is an intrinsically evil act according to the Catholic Church as is cursing God's holy name or blasphemy. This line of reasoning would then insist that those who use contraception should be indicted and punished by the State for committing an "intrinsically evil act." Also, according to this line of thinking, a good deal of free speech that is presently deemed legal would be illegal and punishable as a crime. These examples highlight the importance of constructing secular laws that are distinct from religious laws. Secular laws should be based on justice and be a product of courage, fortitude and prudence, and should have categories of legality independent of Church sanctioned morality, but that reflect human dignity. In order to have a society that respects human dignity, secular laws cannot be the State counterpart to ecclesiastical mandates. History has shown that it consistently results in gross violations of human dignity. Q: Does the separation of Church and State imply then that one's faith should have no bearing on one's duty in public life? A: No. It is saying that the State should not establish an official religion. However, as humans beings, it is natural and expected that our religious views, which form our characters, have an influence on the way legislators act. As long as the legislator remains an agent of the people whom he or she represents, and of the Constitution of the United States, then the influence of religion is appropriate. However, if a legislator becomes an agent of a religion or religious organization at the expense of the electorate and Constitution, then that then is crossing the line between Church and State. Q: Is there a valid distinction between one's personal faith-views and one's public responsibilities as a politician and legislator? A: Yes. As a legislator in the United States, one is elected to represent one's constituents and to do so within the bounds of the Constitution. We often put much faith in the professional judgment of our legislators as to how they represent us, being that we have a representative Republic. Nonetheless, the public nature of the legislative office requires that it not be turned into a vehicle or venue for personal pursuits and values that are at odds with the common good of the community, the desires of that community, and the law. Q: What is the core of the pro-life platform? A: Human dignity. To be pro-life is to believe that human beings are to be accorded a certain minimal level of dignity simply based on being human. This dignity extends from the unborn, to toddlers, to children, to adolescents, to young adults, adults, and seniors. A truly pro-life policy is one that reaches out to comprehensively affirm human dignity. Q: Can one then be pro-life and pro-choice? A: Yes. You both are not mutually exclusive. You can believe that it is consistent with the dignity of women that they be granted freedom in personal matters, yet actively seek to promote a culture of life. Many believe that the best way to address the abortion numbers is to remove the social conditions and situations that weigh on a woman's decision making and provide a structure that supports women and children. The type of things that can make a positive impact include such things as affordable and available health care, child care, affordable housing, secure neighborhoods, economic opportunities, educational opportunities for both mother and child, etc, Q: Is being anti-abortion the same thing as being pro-life? A: No. Anti-abortion measures could be part of a legitimate pro-life agenda, but it is not necessarily so and in fact, it clearly hasn't been the case. The anti-abortion movement has called itself pro-life, but that really isn't accurate. The anti-abortion is more narrowly focused to anti-abortion measures. It hasn't shown itself to be pro-life. For instance, many in the anti-abortion movement do not see the imposition of the death penalty, which the Church has acknowledged as an affront to human dignity, as a pro-life issue. The most argument that anti-abortion activists use against the death penalty is that there is no moral equivalence between abortion and the death penalty. The further claim that the Church has not proclaimed the death penalty an intrinsic evil as abortion has been acknowledge to be and further, that the Church permits the use of the death penalty in certain areas of the world. First of all, the Pope has clearly presented the death penalty issue as a human dignity, thus pro-life matter: "The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God's plan for man and society." Pope John Paul II has said that the death penalty is only appropriate "in cases of absolute necessity, in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today, however, as a result of steady improvement in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically nonexistent." So we see that the base position is that the death penalty violates human dignity and that possible exceptions do not excuse it. Furthermore, in the United States, we have had a clear problem with the unjust application of the death penalty. Many studies have documented the inherent abuses of the system which has put many innocent men on death row and has tended to disfavor minorities, who in many cases are far more likely to receive the death penalty than their White counterparts. Even if the death penalty was acceptable, the inherent injustice endemic in the system should give people of good will pause. If the death penalty, should be applied, then it must be applied fairly. So if someone is more likely to escape such a punishment due to race and/or region, then if becomes a gross violation of civil rights and human dignity, in the same country, to inflict the death penalty on another who committed a similar crime. The fact that here, in the United States of America, first, according to the Pope's criteria, we have no reason to inflict the death penalty, and secondly, the fact that there is a proven inherent injustice in the application of the death penalty, then it is inconsistent with a culture of life to promote or support the death penalty, moral equivalence or not. Q. Is the choice in this election between a truly Pro-life candidate and a truly Pro-choice candidate. A. No. President Bush's so-called pro-life credentials are debatable. While President Bush has advocated anti-abortion moves (the effect of which is questionable as discussed earlier) his administration's stances on both the death penalty and torture have manifested Bush's lack of commitment to human life and dignity. Drawing our attention to the present election and candidates, we are also forced to discuss the incidents of torture that have been used in Iraq, Afghanistan and in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The Church sees torture as an intrinsic evil on par with abortion, rape and blasphemy. As we have seen in numerous reports, the Bush administration had sanctioned interrogation methods that violated international conventions, methods that are accepted as torture. In a Senate hearing, one the Pentagon's Generals acknowledge that if one of our soldiers were captured and forced into stress positions for as long as the revised Pentagon approved interrogation methods allowed they would consider it a violation of international conventions and torture. We have now learned that the impetus for such actions and flagrant violations of the spirit of international conventions proscribing torture came from the top, including Secretary Rumsfeld and President Bush, over the objections of Secretary Powell and military lawyers. We understand that memos approving torture appeared as early as 2002 and were circulated in the White House, Justice Department and Defense Department, displaying the systemic pervasiveness of the issue. This clearly has displayed a disdain for human dignity and cannot, in any way, be reconciled with a pro-life agenda. President Bush as we have seen, falls short of an authentic pro-life platform. He actively supports and has re-instated the death penalty and he has given the green light to torture. His anti-abortion rhetoric has not shown itself as pro-life rhetoric. So while he is anti-abortion in most cases the foundation for that conviction is not a pro-life conviction. There is little to build on in his anti-abortion platform to support comprehensive pro-life policies. Senator Kerry's platform on the other hand provides a pro-life thrust. He is against the death penalty except for terrorist. He is against torture. He supports programs that give dignity and support to children who are born. He seeks to address the problem of the 43 million Americans without healthcare. He seeks to address the education of our children with full funding. He promises to restore America's leadership in the world, restore alliances and use war only as a last resort to protect the United States. Even in the one area that he is lacking, the anti-abortion area, we know that he is personally opposed to abortion and that his policies and platform provide avenues to address the abortion issue, so that we can eventually protect the unborn while preserving the civil rights and dignity of women. So as the Faithful Citizenship document acknowledges, no one candidate or party embraces the entirety of teachings that Catholics would like to see. However, by examining the breath of each candidate's policies, we can be confident that support for Senator Kerry is consistent with our Faith. Q: In Bob Woodward's recent book, President Bush says that he did not consult his father who had fought a similar war before going into Iraq, rather he consulted a "higher father." Isn't that what we want in a President, one who consults God to make decisions? A: No. The Presidency of the United States is about electing a man or woman with the leadership and competence to lead this nation and the world in the twenty-first century. As Christians we are not looking for a national prophet who can hear the voice of God and then dictate God's policy to us. Such an idea is a flawed and does not belong in our political discussions. We elect Presidents because they can lead and because they are competent, not because they can hear the voice of God speaking to them as to a prophet. It is certainly admirable to have a person of faith as Commander-in-Chief and President, but not because we want to them to inquire God's will on our behalf, but because it shows displays the depth of character and one's values that he or she will bring to the office of the President. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:20:40 -0700 (PDT) From: mags h Subject: Re: Joni's songwriting - American or Universal? now NJC really Em wrote: To me Joni's music, words, art are truly universal so long as its a part of the universe where women are permitted to be strong and individualistic and have their quirks and oddities, without having the sh_t beat out of them by some man who wants her to be only his silent house slave and brood-mare. (or silence her in other ways). <-my addage. now moi..... Em, initially I was going to say in yer dreams girlie girl...however, there IS a place for us in the world , yes'm and no this is NOT a diss at men in general, I want to make that clear . I chime in because it is as important an issue as any out there, near and dear to my heart. hmm just thinking... I wont get any replies on this one because Im Joni only. C'est la vie n'est-ce pas. Mags. Yahoo! Mail  CNET Editors' Choice 2004. Tell them what you think. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:39:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni's songwriting - American or Universal? now NJC really - --- mags h wrote: > and no this is NOT a diss at men in general, I want to make that > clear . I chime in because it is as important an issue as any out > there, near and dear to my heart. Hi Mags, wow I sure didn't mean that either, directing thoughts of repression at men in general. No way! I was thinking I guess of places where, really, it *might* be hard for humans in general to flourish creatively, but especially women who may have had, for exampe, their genitals ritually mutilated. See that would not be condusive to raising up a Joni. Or, I have to say I was even guilty of thinking how it *might* be hard for a woman free as JM to emerge from, say, very conservative Moslem sects. Or heck, ANY real conservative places/situations. Its been largely nature and evolution how things have moved along, and men, my sweet brothers, have been soooooooo very much a part of that evolution. So my hope (and I wish maybe that i'd thought it of it earlier) is that not even one man thinks I was referring to any general repression of women. Nope! And I should have been more specific. thx! and Mags am sending this your way with the NJC removed. :) Em ===== - ---------- "But Mona Lisa musta had the highway blues You can tell by the way she smiles" Bob D. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:03:08 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: using the church, njc LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: > > > Below is another long one that has some excellent information in > it concerning the bishops and Sen. Kerry. Enjoy and be hopeful! could you give me the source and/or ink for that? it is excellent and I deeply appreciate your sharing. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:09:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: njc using the church --- vince wrote: > This is all somewhat incredible to me. > > > Vince > > > > > > > Group of Bishops Using Influence to Oppose Kerry > > By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK > and LAURIE GOODSTEIN > > Published: October 12, 2004 > > ENVER, Oct. 9 - For Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, > the highest-ranking > Roman Catholic prelate in Colorado, there is only > one way for a faithful > Catholic to vote in this presidential election, for > President Bush > Incredible in the sickening sense, but, unfortunately not in the "unbelievable" sense. Yet one more reason I'm glad I dropped out of the RC/arsey thing. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:02:22 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: using the church, njc Vince wrote: could you give me the source and/or link for that? it is excellent and I deeply appreciate your sharing. Hi Vince, Yes, sure the link for the site is: http://www.kerrycatholics.com/q_&_a.htm Here are a couple more you might be interested in: http://catholicsforkerry04.org/USCCBGuideKerryRightBushWrong.htm http://catholicsforkerry04.org/ I'm glad you appreciate these. I was sent them by someone in my religious lay community, another domestic sister. Here is a link for our community (The Brothers and Sisters of Charity) too: http://www.littleportion.org/ We have pastors from other denominations in our community... it is a movement toward church unity. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:06:10 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni as Vietnamese and 'Willy" **Maybe farming rice and with water buffaloes in the background... and her singing "Willy". Em - please forward me a copy of this recording! :~) Actually, your point is WELL taken - all of the covers I've collected that are either in another language or recorded outside of the US pretty much shoots down the theory that Joni is "American" in any way. Some American references, to be sure...but I'll bet just as many Canadian & International references as well. Matter of fact...I'm looking at the tracklist for the next Covers volume, and 5, maybe 6 of the tracks are from American artists. Em, I'd love to play you Hajime Chitose's version of Blue, she sings it with all of these Asian bamboo-flute-like vocal inflections...I think it's gorgeous, but I'm all out there on my own with my opinion, sad to say. NEXT trip to Tampa we have to have an all-night Joni covers listening party, OK? Jerry can play all of his Asian "Circle Game" recordings. Bob NP: k.d. lang, "A Case Of You" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:05:17 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Dylan interview NJC Subject: Dylan with passing Joni content The laconic Bob Dylan gave his first broadcast interview this morning on NPR. He said he understood how Joni Mitchell could give up the music business to concentrate on painting< don't know if the audio is up yet, but here's the link: That interview was the first time I've really heard Dylan's speaking voice (I guess he didn't talk much during the concerts I've attended). It was very interesting...he doesn't sound like "Dylan" at all. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:12:10 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: More Dylan NJC Subject: RE: Dylan with passing Joni content A friend of mine worked for a while for an accounting firm that specialized in show biz clients, one of whom was Dylan. Now and then my friend would work on-site in Dylan's New York office, counting enormous amounts of money. Anyway, he said there was a special phone line just for the big man. When that line rang, everyone dropped everything 'cause Bobby D. was callin'. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:29:56 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Sam Phillips NJC Craig Also, Sam Phillips at the Cactus Cafe was great, if you get a chance to catch her on this tour I highly recommend it. I finally "discovered" Sam recently. She's awesome, quite one-of-a-kind. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:24:44 -1000 From: "dfrench" Subject: re ;a silly question njc i also had a wonder of a song/band/group that played in the scene of 'silence of the lambs' when the bad boy prissied up in front of the mirror then tucked himself behind ...what song was dhat ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:36:19 +0200 From: "Ron" Subject: Re: Emmylou Linda and Dolly NJC Joni Rose update hi >>>>some discussion re the emmylou, dolly & linda trio releases well - i think those were two great records. so was the western wall with emmylou & linda however, i do think that that trio's singing was eclipsed by the trio that sang on the "oh brother" soundtrack - emmylou, alison krauss, and gillian welch........... bliss ron npimh - "didnt leave nobody but the baby....." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:49:59 +0200 From: "Ron" Subject: politics njc hi someone here mentioned buffalo springfields "for what its worth", so of course being so impressionable i had to dig it out & take a listen. one of my all time favourite lines - which really just sums up political debate / arguments, even on this list: "mostly say "hooray for our side"" actually - it unfortunately sums up a whole lot more than just politics......................... ron who clearly remembers the first time he heard fwiw at a coffee shop in durban in 1984 with mark, mike & rob - yeah - it made that much of an impression on me................. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #418 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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