From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #411 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, October 9 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 411 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short [colin ] Re: Stop the Bushies - NJC PC ["Kakki" ] Find Your Own Joni Spell AKA Joni Angels/Lines [Nuriel Tobias ] Waterbug "Anti-theft" anthology (NJC) [] Re: My (Totally) Secret Place [Nuriel Tobias ] RADIO 2/Leonard Cohen/Steve wright in the afternoon...NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] Re: Stop the Bushies - NJC PC [tantra_apso ] Jane Campion's The Piano and Joni [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Jane Campion's The Piano and Joni -- njc [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: Find Your Own Joni Spell AKA Joni Angels/Lines [Catherine McKay ] NJC McGreevey Stars in new Jibjab film NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: RE: battling terrorism - NJC PC [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Find Your Own Joni Spell AKA Joni Angels/Lines [Nuriel Tobias ] joni and elvis in vanity fair ["Ross, Les" ] Re: RE: battling terrorism - NJC PC [Susan Guzzi ] NJC Re: battling terrorism - NJC PC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Can country music drive you to suicide? [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: battling terrorism - NJC PC [dsk ] Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: My (Totally) Secret Place [dsk ] Re: My (Totally) Secret Place [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Hilburn's essay in Post ["janine sherman" ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC ["Kakki" ] Re: NJC Re: Can country music drive you to suicide? NJC [Gertus@aol.com] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 08:36:43 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: >Colin writes: > ><< I had no idea Vince and Kakki were so mucn older than I.......(or is it >me?) >> > > >The use of "I" is correct, Colin. The trick is to add the verb at the end, >then choose. (For example: "... older than me am" or "... older than I am.") > > > thank you smurph bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 00:42:53 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Stop the Bushies - NJC PC Colin wrote: > what you fail is to see is that this how so many of us view you and the > other Bushies. Sad LOL - no, it is very clearly seen by me and whatever Bushies are left around here who are duly reminded of it on a constant and regular basis. > I pray that Bush doesn't win the next election or that someone takes him > out. If he wins and survives we are all well and truly stuffed. > (yes, you did read me right. I do believe it is ethical to kill if by > doing so you save the lives of millions. it is the only case I can think > of where killing is justified.) You just may get your wish someday at the rate things are going. Kakki - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 00:49:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Find Your Own Joni Spell AKA Joni Angels/Lines Hi friends, Wow, i'm so happy that you found this fun! My Rabbi would have been very proud of me...NOT! He'd probably would've hit me with a stick if he knew that this Kabalah secrect he's taught me has now been transformed into a Joni spell! Anyway, just wanted to let everyone who's already found their spell, and those who are still looking for it - Don't be afraid if the lyric that you've found doesn't "describe you" or even it's a "negative" lyric (even if your name was to be Karol Red, which would've meant that your Joni spell is "Kiss my ass, i said"). The Kabalah says there are no negative words in the Bible, and i do believe Joni's lyrics are (in a way) all good too, and as for finding a Joni lyric that you may feel that is "not you", the Kabalah also says that even if you think it doesn't describe you - it does, no matter what it's saying and even if you can't find the connection (Poor old Karol Red:)) I don't remember exactly what my Bible line was - but it had to do with sacrifising sheeps or something, and when i asked my Rabbi - "What has that got to do with me, Rabbi Ben-Harush?" he told me that the fact that the line began with the first letter of my private name and ended with the last letter of my family name, meant that it IS my line (my "bar" as he called it) and even if i don't undrestand why, my intire soul is captured in that line. I found ALL the lyrics that you've found as your Joni spells to be lovely:) Love, Nuriel vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 00:57:26 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Stop the Distractions NJC > The country is out of control in many, many ways and we're arguing over who served honorably in a war that few of us thought was meaningful 30 years >ago. > > Two cents, > Jim I'll see your two and raise you two more. Kakki - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 8:14:10 -0500 From: Subject: Waterbug "Anti-theft" anthology (NJC) Deb Messling wrote (hi, Deb!!): "[. . .] I really, really like the song by Jack Hardy, "In Bed with the Enemy." I'm not familiar with Jack Hardy and I'd like to hear more of him. Can anyone recommend anything?" Jack Hardy is a NYC-based singer-songwriter who's led the Songwriters' Exchange (a writer's group that has included the likes of Suzanne Vega, John Gorka, and Steve Forbert) for the past 25 years. He also edited the Fast Folk musical magazine. On a much more personal note, I remember reading in the New York Times three years ago that he lost a brother, who worked for Cantor Fitzgerald, in the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center. There seems to be a lot on Hardy on the web, so I'd just say: punch in his name, and read some reviews! My introduction to him, however, was his beautiful song, "St. Clare," which appears at the very end of Vega's 2001 release, "Songs in Red and Gray." Of course, if Jack is currently performing in the NYC area, you also may be able to catch a show. Good luck--and good to hear from you! Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 01:13:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: My (Totally) Secret Place Dear Bob, I now know for sure that i TOTALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS SONG IS ABOUT! And the fact the the lyrics are sung sometimes by Her and sometimes by Him, makes it the more confusing, for i no longer understand who's taking who to the secret place, Who owns the secret place - though it always makes me smile when i hear him singing "Your pretty face". I can imagine the scene at the recording studio: Peter: Hummm...Joni...i was wondering...which on of us is going to sing the "Your pretty face" lyric? Joni: Well what do you think?! Do you think that I'M going to sing "Your pretty face" to YOU?!" Peter: OK...OK...i was only asking...btw, Joni, do you want me to sing it as if i realy mean it?... Joni: I'm warning you, Peter! Now shut the fuck up and sing the bloody line before i show you just how pretty i can be!!! I'll check the info. section to see what and if Joni has ever said about who's that character in the song. Nuriel SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: **Cause i've always found this song to be a very personal song. It all fits with Joni but for this New York City thing. How so, Nuriel? I read through the lyrics today a couple of times and they are generic and vague, actually very poor by Joni's standard. Nothing specific in the lyrics except for the part you referenced about being born & raised in NYC and moving to Colorado which pretty much ices the fact that it's *not* autobiographical. Bob Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 09:48:31 +0100 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: RADIO 2/Leonard Cohen/Steve wright in the afternoon...NJC Jacky and Azeem have been talking about BBC radios 2 and 4... You JMDL-ers can listen via the website www.bbc.co.uk and make up your minds... it will be worth it, the standard is very high... I CANNOT "DO" "Radio 1" anymore...impossible... completely beyond my tolerance level.... and the DJs style and content of their presentation is not what I want to listen to. (even my kids of 13 and 16 hate Radio 1...saying it is naff) they prefer local stations if they have to listen to radio) I love Radio4 for all sorts of things (early morning for a good round up of news and world events.. and sometimes for the whole day) but especially early evening 6pm -7 and Saturday mornings. I am afraid I have become addicted to POP MASTER on Radio 2 at 10.20 and 11.15 + - a few minutes. The general flow of music that streams forward is great. Steve Wright is not AS bad as you might expect and, if you travel as part of your working day, the constant stream of traffic info, factoids and the feature of one listeners favourites for a whole hour...makes ofr a musical medley that keeps you wanting to know what is coming up next. Radio 2 did once stand for all that was naff, out of date and terribly staid... now, however it is the music I recognise...Oh yes, naff, out of date and terribly staid!!! OH NO!!!!! (hands smacked to cheeks like Munschs scream)....... REally there is an incredibly diverse span of music from the 60s up to date.... and I like that... If I want to indulge in all that is personal, up lifting, and of my own choice I stick in a tape or use the CD..... but radios of all sorts have a way of keeping the brain sharp..... and one thing I love about BBC programs is that there is no advertising..... apart from their own programs..... Anyway, that is me popping my head up from lurkdom for the moment. Lovely to talk to Jimmy the other day (and thanks for the tree photos and you amongst the lavendar!!!) and Smurph we will talk soon... but you HAVE to be in to answer the phone hun... Love and hugs all Lulu xxxxxx Love your friends because you choose them. Understand your family because no one else can. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 02:15:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #407 (The bad thing about that era) BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: I've always loved MSP, sonically, harmonically, lyrically. One of the better songs of that Joni era (of course some of us claim there were no good songs of that era, but I respectfully disagree). Bryan I think the ONLY no good thing that Joni did during that era was when she curled her hair. That was awful. Nuriel vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 10:31:34 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Stop the Bushies - NJC PC Kakki wrote: > Colin wrote: > > > what you fail is to see is that this how so many of us view you and the > > other Bushies. > > Sad LOL - no, it is very clearly seen by me and whatever Bushies are left >around here who are duly reminded of it on a constant and regular basis. > > > did you read what you yourself wrote about non Bushies? Why get upset when people view you in the same way you view them? - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 10:33:32 +0100 From: tantra_apso Subject: Re: Stop the Bushies - NJC PC Oh and another thing-it is not my wish at all to see anyone killed. No one. Don't spin what i write. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 03:15:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Jane Campion's The Piano and Joni ...Thought you may find this intereting. Found this site named "static.highbeam.com". In one of it's sections - Women and Language - there's an article titled "Choosing silence: defiance and resistance without voice in Jane Campion's The Piano". I couldn't read the article becuase reading it involves with paying the site, but i found some notes about it, and couldn't help thinking of what Joni's going thru these days. "This essay focuses on silence as a tool of empowerment and self-assertion rather than a manifestation of oppression. The authors offer an alternative to the idea that it is necessary to "give voice" to empower marginalized persons. Using Jane Campion's 1993 film The Piano as its focus, this piece addresses the communication forms, verbal and otherwise, used by a mute woman under the veil of patriarchal Victorian society. As this woman refuses to conform to the mores of her era, she ultimately manages to "find voice" on her own terms. Silence can be a plan rigorously executed the blueprint to a life It is a presence, it has a history, a form Do not confuse it with any kind of absence" Nuriel vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 06:55:26 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Jane Campion's The Piano and Joni -- njc Quoting from a website, Nuriel writes: << This essay focuses on silence as a tool of empowerment and self-assertion rather than a manifestation of oppression. >> Gee, this sounds sorta like the Ellen Jamesians from "The World According to Garp." They were the ones who cut out their tongues in protest of something, was it Ellen James's rape and murder? - --Smurf "Land of snap decisions, land of short attention spans ... Hey! Wanna have gay sex?" - --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 07:59:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Find Your Own Joni Spell AKA Joni Angels/Lines --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Don't be afraid if the lyric that you've > found doesn't "describe you" or even it's a > "negative" lyric (even if your name was to be Karol > Red, which would've meant that your Joni spell is > "Kiss my ass, i said"). Hmm. I may just change my name to Karol Red... ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 07:06:26 -0500 From: "Anne Sandstrom" Subject: RE: Joni lines > OK, then can I have this? > > "Hell's the hippest way to go > Well I don't think (so)" Well, Hell, why don't you just take the first part? "Hell's the hippest way to go" lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 09:51:19 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC McGreevey Stars in new Jibjab film NJC _http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/content/goodtobeindc/frameset.html_ (http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/content/goodtobeindc/frameset.html) Bob NP: Tom Waits, "How's It Gonna End" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 10:48:14 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: battling terrorism - NJC PC Patrick wrote: on terrorism, i support kerry because bush and the republicans are doing a terrible job protecting me. not finishing the job in afghanistan was a horrible mistake, including: 1. not catching osama 2. not finishing off the taliban 3. and not stabilizing the country these have put my life in much more danger than iraq was. not to mention: a. not spending homeland security money on the correct threats, like big cities, port and chemical plant security b. pulling special forces out of afghanistan, and arabic translators away from afghani and pakistani intelligence efforts, where al qaeda was and is active. c. alienating nearly all of our allies, whose help we truly need to battle the terrorist threat. kakki, i just want you to say: "i know that some people just think that bush is doing a bad job protecting america from terrorism" i know you don't agree, but at least say that you understand how we feel. the artificial split you described above (suggesting we don't support bush because we don't believe the threat is serious) is just offensive to those of us who experienced 9/11. Hi Patrick, I want to compliment you on your post to Kakki. I agree with what you said and think you did a very good job explaining yourself not only intelligently and succinctly but also peacefully. Yes, it is offensive and misleading how Bush implies those of us who don't support him aren't supporting protecting the country. For people to buy into this, to repeat it and to derive that some of us don't take the threat of terrorism seriously is a shame. I agree Kerry will be a much stronger president, much more level-headed and effective at protecting our country than Bush for the reasons you stated Patrick. Nice post! Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 08:39:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Find Your Own Joni Spell AKA Joni Angels/Lines LOL!!!!!! Dear Karol Red, You're amaaaaaazing! Nurieline McTobias Catherine McKay wrote: - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Don't be afraid if the lyric that you've > found doesn't "describe you" or even it's a > "negative" lyric (even if your name was to be Karol > Red, which would've meant that your Joni spell is > "Kiss my ass, i said"). Hmm. I may just change my name to Karol Red... ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 11:58:46 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni Cover + video! Thanks to our excellent Euro-scout Monica, you can enjoy a fine version of "God Must Be A Boogie Man" by Sara Lee & Robin and see the video of the duo performing it. Chris Marshall - you need to see this. 1. Go here: _www.knoertz.tk/_ (http://www.knoertz.tk/) 2. Click on "video" 3. Click on "Sara Lee & Robin TV Rijnmond Live" 4. Enjoy 5. There is no step 5, unless you want to say thanks to Monica. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:31:13 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Can country music drive you to suicide? A recent British Medical Journal carried this story which I thought made entertaining reading:- Can country music drive you to suicide? The Ig Nobel award for medicinebone of the prizes given annually to scientists who have produced unusual researchbwas given this year to a team of researchers who had found that cities in which radio stations played a higher than average amount of country music had higher than average suicide rates. The award went to Steven Stack of Wayne State University, Michigan, and James Gundlach of Auburn University, Alabama, for their report, The Effect of Country Music on Suicide. Dr Stack protested to the BMJ that it was unfair of Newsweek to call him and his colleague "academic coneheads." "We had hard data showing that cities with higher than average country music radio market share had higher white suicide rates," he said. African-American suicide rates, he explained, were not affected by the country music market ( Social Forces 1992;71: 211-8[ISI]). Odd science, from the peculiar to the bizarre, was centre stage at the ceremony, the 14th in the history of the prize, which was held at Harvard University. The awards are given by the Annals of Improbable Research for work that "celebrates the unusual" and "first makes you laugh, and then makes you think." The clear winner of the night, however, was the recipient of this year's peace prize, Daisuke Inoue of Hyugo, Japan. Mr Inoue, who invented the karaoke machine, received this year's peace award for "providing an entirely new way for people to learn to tolerate each other." Certainly does make you think. And they say Joni's music is depressing! Hmm - maybe someone could get funding for a study of suicide rates in towns which don't play enough Joni. Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:43:28 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Can country music drive you to suicide? NJC **The clear winner of the night, however, was the recipient of this year's peace prize, Daisuke Inoue of Hyugo, Japan. Mr Inoue, who invented the karaoke machine, received this year's peace award for "providing an entirely new way for people to learn to tolerate each other." Hey there Jacky - I read an article about this guy, and what struck me as pretty amazing about this fellow was that while he invented the machine he had no interest in patenting it - he just put it out there for people to enjoy without concern of making money. Truly an inspiration! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 09:59:31 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: My (Totally) Secret Place Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Dear Bob, > > I now know for sure that i TOTALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS SONG IS > ABOUT! Here's what Joni has to say about 'My Secret Place' in her notes for 'The Complete Geffen Recordings' box set: Albert Magnoli approached me to write a song for a scene in a movie he was making, 'American Anthem'. In the scene a young couple in a red jeep is racing up a mountain road against a backdrop of golden aspen trees. The director requested the song be upbeat and nestled on a bed of Syndrums and he sang to me a hideous Syndrum fill. I told him "That's not the way I see the music in this scene and I couldn't possibly give you a drum fill like that. Should I do it anyway?" He laughed and said "Yes, and while you're at it, take a jab at the title song. Write me an American anthem." So I wrote a ballad 'My Secret Place' for the driving scene and 'Number One' for the anthem. > And the fact the the lyrics are sung sometimes by Her and sometimes > by Him, makes it the more confusing, for i no longer understand who's > taking who to the secret place, Who owns the secret place - though it > always makes me smile when i hear him singing "Your pretty face". Joni continues with her notes: We were in England at the time. Klein had just finished playing on Peter Gabriel's So album. The album was completed and his studio was standing empty. Peter offered it to me, as a courtesy, to make my demos. He agreed to sing on 'My Secret Place'. I didn't approach the duet in the usual way. I wanted it to be like the Song of Solomon where gender seems to change arbitrarily. I had learned from singing with Don Henley that seemingly different voices give little to no contrast in certain registers and I used this observation here. Both songs were rejected. Of 'Number One,' the director said, "I asked for an anthem. I don't want the truth!" Hope that helps, Nuriel. Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 18:08:19 +0100 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: joni and elvis in vanity fair This month's UK Vanity Fair has an interview carried out by Elvis Costello with Joni Mitchell. Only managed to scan it at the time of writing but she covers her recent musical output. She hasn't had any. She states that she's had one song for which she sees no immediate lyric arising. Sigh. Much of the old discontent is gone over again (yawn) but there is other stuff and there are also some good pics with our Elv. So get out there and buy it babes. Les (london) oh, Johny Depp is on the cover...which also effects a certain ease on the eye. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 10:26:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: RE: battling terrorism - NJC PC I wholeheartedly agree Laura, very nice post Patrick. I too get tired of the implication that I am not patriotic or supportive of America. Ohh quite the contrary! Freedom means never having to say you're sorry children - for thinking that there are alternatives or better solutions. And to imply that by speaking against this bumbling administration diminishes the efforts and sacrifice of our troops is purely to incite division! Why is it I wonder, that one side may speak and carry out their strategy without the other challenging it - and turning it into rhetoric. To follow blindly and by force, to me stinks of Nazism and fascism. Another point in the war on terror. Why is it that to search for peaceful alternatives is thought to be so dishonorable by this administration. Why is it now impossible for allies to come to the table in the way they may best serve it - just because they chose not to huddle up with Captain Bush. This is snobbery and pompous! This is putting ego before peace and solution. Also I DO know that Saddam was a horrid tyrant. But number one as a response to 9/11? - come on! Why not reverse what we did - stay in Afghanistan and have the numbers we have in Iraq there - searching for Osama and have operations of a smaller size in Iraq? Let me answer this ... two reasons - the failure of the father - Bush #1 and for oil. Yep I said it again! Also after Afghanistan - why not major major covert and intelligence in the country that spawned the culprits of 9/11 - Saudi Arabia! Or how about efforts to pull together other more friendly middle eastern Muslim countries to put pressure on Saddam and create a real peace and perhaps oust him in that way - or if need be by force. Nope thats just not in the soul of a gunslinging punk like our president. AND yes protecting nuclear/chemical plants - for me is high priority. Homeland security appears to me to be more about limiting freedoms and carrying out other agendas by Bush. I don't trust him and think he is inept. Kerry was not my first choice - but he is more that able and much more intelligent and level headed. I don't mind at all if someone changes their mind. To me seeing a strategy not working is not an admission of guilt but more so shows flexibility and desire to finding solutions. Rather than being a stubborn child and holding fast to failures or fiascos. Holding my breath till election day - cause after the war on terror - comes my next fear - fear of a Bush appointee to the Supreme Court! UGH! AND that is terrifying! Peace, Susan LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: Patrick wrote: on terrorism, i support kerry because bush and the republicans are doing a terrible job protecting me. not finishing the job in afghanistan was a horrible mistake, including: 1. not catching osama 2. not finishing off the taliban 3. and not stabilizing the country these have put my life in much more danger than iraq was. not to mention: a. not spending homeland security money on the correct threats, like big cities, port and chemical plant security b. pulling special forces out of afghanistan, and arabic translators away from afghani and pakistani intelligence efforts, where al qaeda was and is active. c. alienating nearly all of our allies, whose help we truly need to battle the terrorist threat. kakki, i just want you to say: "i know that some people just think that bush is doing a bad job protecting america from terrorism" i know you don't agree, but at least say that you understand how we feel. the artificial split you described above (suggesting we don't support bush because we don't believe the threat is serious) is just offensive to those of us who experienced 9/11. Hi Patrick, I want to compliment you on your post to Kakki. I agree with what you said and think you did a very good job explaining yourself not only intelligently and succinctly but also peacefully. Yes, it is offensive and misleading how Bush implies those of us who don't support him aren't supporting protecting the country. For people to buy into this, to repeat it and to derive that some of us don't take the threat of terrorism seriously is a shame. I agree Kerry will be a much stronger president, much more level-headed and effective at protecting our country than Bush for the reasons you stated Patrick. Nice post! Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 13:42:05 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: battling terrorism - NJC PC **Why is it that to search for peaceful alternatives is thought to be so dishonorable by this administration. Boy, you're right on, sister. I made the same comment to Valerie while watching the VP debate because several times Cheney said that Kerry always voted on the WRONG side of defense. I asked "why is voting against war, voting for peace...the WRONG side?" I think it just shows the integrity of someone who has SEEN it and knows the difference between STRENGTH & ARROGANCE. We also watched last night's debate, and I LOVED it when the lady asked Bush to list 3 mistaked he'd made. I instantly raised three fingers in the air, and said "watch how many of my fingers disappear!" while he did his usual mealy-mouth pandering to wind down the clock, never admitting to making a specific mistake (he alluded to some people he should not have appointed but wasn't specific enough to address the question really imo). Kerry's response was to compare him to an arrogant male driver who is too insecure to stop and ask for directions. I howled. Like Bob Dylan writes in "Chimes Of Freedom": "Flashing for the warriors whose strength is NOT to fight" Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 11:11:19 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC >No direct connection with Al Queda for 9/11 but numerous connections throughout the past 10-12 years. Here is a link detailing the connections from reputable sources. This is only a partial list of connections: http://www.archive-news.net/Articles/SH040923.html< hardly a reputable source... & if you want to go back in history to make connections then please include all of those in our gov't who supported both osama & saddam... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 11:16:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Can country music drive you to suicide? Hey Jacky, Could you please recommend me the best country music album available? My Mother in law's birthday is next month, and i think it would make a superb birthday gift for her! Thanks, Nuriel Gertus@aol.com wrote: A recent British Medical Journal carried this story which I thought made entertaining reading:- Can country music drive you to suicide? The Ig Nobel award for medicinebone of the prizes given annually to scientists who have produced unusual researchbwas given this year to a team of researchers who had found that cities in which radio stations played a higher than average amount of country music had higher than average suicide rates. The award went to Steven Stack of Wayne State University, Michigan, and James Gundlach of Auburn University, Alabama, for their report, The Effect of Country Music on Suicide. Dr Stack protested to the BMJ that it was unfair of Newsweek to call him and his colleague "academic coneheads." "We had hard data showing that cities with higher than average country music radio market share had higher white suicide rates," he said. African-American suicide rates, he explained, were not affected by the country music market ( Social Forces 1992;71: 211-8[ISI]). Odd science, from the peculiar to the bizarre, was centre stage at the ceremony, the 14th in the history of the prize, which was held at Harvard University. The awards are given by the Annals of Improbable Research for work that "celebrates the unusual" and "first makes you laugh, and then makes you think." The clear winner of the night, however, was the recipient of this year's peace prize, Daisuke Inoue of Hyugo, Japan. Mr Inoue, who invented the karaoke machine, received this year's peace award for "providing an entirely new way for people to learn to tolerate each other." Certainly does make you think. And they say Joni's music is depressing! Hmm - maybe someone could get funding for a study of suicide rates in towns which don't play enough Joni. Jacky Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 11:22:57 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short >I don't know why some people want to continue to beat this dead horse. It really makes them look very misinformed.< easier to attack the messenger rather than address the message ... the issue is alive because there are to this day a lot of missing pieces... if you are so greatly informed you would be aware of that... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 20:36:16 +0200 From: "Ron" Subject: Re: Can country music drive you to suicide? NJC hi >>>>>> Gertus@aol.com wrote: >>>>> A recent British Medical Journal carried this story which I thought made entertaining reading:- Can country music drive you to suicide?<<<<< mmmmm - i wonder - is there any way to get it playlisted on white house radio???? ron np - mary gauthier - drag queens in limousines (& im off to fetch the razor blades.......) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 14:39:30 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC Kakki wrote: > > You are proving my point throughout this reply and the rest, Debra. Note > that I originally spoke of people, plural, who have been attacked here, but > you bring it back to focus on me personally. And exactly who are those people? Or am I supposed to come up with the same group you have in mind, and then come up with a group response? That's unclear enough to be meaningless. I'm not doing it that way. It's too confusing. For the moment, I'm keeping it personal, Kakki, because you, specifically you, are coming across as aggrieved that no one pays attention to all the info you post, all those "facts" meant to prove whatever point you're making. So, yes, I was giving YOU my view as to why I don't respond to your political posts, since that's what you were complaining about, and have complained about in other messages also. I'm not claiming to speak for the entire "solid brick wall," to use your characterization of people here who don't respond or agree with you. > When I see items being propagated that have been pretty soundly debunked, > I put up the facts. That's fine and appreciated. Problem is, as I see it, the only facts you're willing to pay any attention to are the ones you've chosen to prove your point. All other information is ignored. According to you, whatever the rest of us say is worthless because we don't read enough or we all think alike or want to see everything negatively. Your attitude toward people who don't agree you is extremely insulting, nicely said, cleverly hidden, but still insulting. And you wonder why you get such negative reactions sometimes? > ... But I've come to see that some people want to and > need to believe the stories no matter what and I agree that facts are not > what they want to hear and it only frustrates them. You're speaking of yourself here, yes? It's making more sense to me now that you would be a Bush supporter. The way you treat other people's views is similar to the way Bush is unwilling to hear anything that doesn't fit what he's already decided. So being a Bush supporter may not have anything to do with Iraq or other issues, and has everything to do with a similarity in general attitude. Or, to say it another way, you (and other Bush supporters) and Bush think the same way. Maybe that's why I continued to support Clinton no matter what he was doing. I always liked the expansive way he thinks, the way he's able to consider complex situations and articulate complex answers that make sense, and perhaps I identified with that (and hoped to be able to do that myself) without realizing it. If so, then my support of Clinton had very little to do with particular issues, although I thought it did. Maybe, to all of that. It's an intriguing mystery to me why anyone would support Bush in spite of the evidence that he doesn't deserve such support. So a general, and mostly unconscious, "we think alike" relationship may be part of why people support Bush (or any politician) even if they disagree with some of their actions (although from what I can see, most Republicans don't disagree with anything Bush does, which seems very strange to me; I was often angry at some of the things Clinton did, but I've always liked him and would vote for him again without pausing if that was possible, and most Republicans would be horrifyingly mystified by that). So, there you go, from the personal to the general and ending up back to the "wiring" that's been mentioned before. No wonder the poll numbers don't move much no matter what's happening in the world. > ... I tend to think the split > between those who support Bush and those who oppose him really comes down to > how seriously one believes the threat is. Those who feel from the depths of > their being that we truly are in danger want to support Bush over the > alternative choice. Jeez Louise, another insult from Ms. Superiority. I was sucking in ash consisting of huge buildings and its contents, including people, on 9/11, and for months breathing in the smoke from the fire that couldn't be put out, so Kakki you really don't need to tell me, or anyone, how serious the threat is. The split is about the WAY that threat has been dealt with. Bush supporters think invading Iraq makes us safer, anti-Bush people see just the opposite. Debra Shea, in NYC and completely fed up now, time for a break ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 15:15:45 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: battling terrorism - NJC PC patrick leader wrote: > > on terrorism, i support kerry because bush and the republicans are doing a > terrible job protecting me. not finishing the job in afghanistan was a > horrible mistake, including: > 1. not catching osama > 2. not finishing off the taliban > 3. and not stabilizing the country > > these have put my life in much more danger than iraq was. Thanks for your entire message, Patrick. Every time I hear Bush say that the world is better off without Saddam Hussein in power, my question is "are we better off with Osama bin Laden still in the world making his plans and inspiring his followers for the past three years?" That's an obvious concern to me, and isn't lessened by Bush's repeated sound-good statement about Saddam that can't be proven. Even Tommy Franks, the general in charge of the war, says that too many troops were pulled to go to Iraq before the job was finished in Afghanistan. The Bushies are now saying that the U.S. can fight effectively in both Iraq and Afghanistan, but there's no evidence of that. The only somewhat secure place in the whole country is Kabul. Warlords and the taliban are again taking over most areas. It's great they're having elections, but there are more people registered to vote than there are people, so what's up with that? It'll be shocking if someone other than Karzai, Bush's crony, is elected. Bush crowing about catching 75% of al Qaeda doesn't mean anything because he's talking about al Qaeda as it existed three years ago, as though it's a static organization with people just sitting around waiting for cowboy Bush to smoke 'em outta their caves, lasso 'em, capture 'em dead or alive. Yeah, right. More empty talk. Debra Shea, going back now to that break I was going to take ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:27:56 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC >It was, and is, nonsense.< It is not nonsense especially to those with children... during wartime the draft is always a very real possibility though hopefully it won't be used >But even outright denials from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and President Bush himself could not quell the fears< Oh yes & these two have certainly kept their word to us countless times... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 15:41:12 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: My (Totally) Secret Place Nuriel Tobias wrote: > > I now know for sure that i TOTALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS SONG IS ABOUT! > And the fact the the lyrics are sung sometimes by Her and sometimes by Him, > makes it the more confusing, for i no longer understand who's taking who to > the secret place, Who owns the secret place - though it always makes me smile > when i hear him singing "Your pretty face". ... I've always heard it as a seduction song, as an invitation to intimacy, rather than the Secret Place being something "out there", partly because the voices are so intertwined it's not clear who's singing what. Sounds sexy to me, as though Joni's teasing and enticing someone and offering to share her secret place, her body?, her heart?, with her companion. It's been a while since I listened to that song, so I don't know if the lyrics support that idea or not. But, she wrote it as a traveling song? Interesting. Have there been any covers of it? Maybe if it sounded clearer, it would be more of a roadtrip song. Debra Shea, ahhh, it all comes back to Joni ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 16:51:12 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: My (Totally) Secret Place **Have there been any covers of it? None that I'm aware of, Debra - and believe me I look in every nook & cranny (whatever a cranny is), and have many pals around the world that do the same. Jamie Zoob sang it at the 2000 UK Jonifest, and that recording was shared but I don't include Jonifest tracks in my database. Chalk Mark has not been a source for too many covers: - -A Bird That Whistles was covered by a Swedish group that took that song title for their band name for a Joni Tribute CD; - -The Beat Of Black Wings has been covered three times (makes sense as its far & away the best track on the record); - -The Tea Leaf Prophecy was covered last year by Holly Near & Cris Williamson. Bob NP: Joni, "Willy" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 17:17:07 -0400 From: "janine sherman" Subject: Hilburn's essay in Post Clear DayRobert Hilburn's essay on Joni appeared in this week's (Oct.6)Washington Post. It was an entire bottom half page of the newspaper including a lovely 1968 photo of Joni (looking a little like Heidi) smiling widely crowned in a daisies. NP: Two Against Nature: Steely Dan Janine ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 15:21:20 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC > >It was, and is, nonsense.< > > It is not nonsense especially to those with children... during wartime the > draft is always a very real possibility though hopefully it won't be used It's nonsense that some people are spreading a false rumor. > >But even outright denials from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and > President Bush himself could not quell the fears< > > Oh yes & these two have certainly kept their word to us countless times... So Kate, what about the crux of the article that said the House almost unanimously shut down the bill and that it's not going to happen? Is that meaningless to you? Kakki - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 18:34:21 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Re: Can country music drive you to suicide? NJC In a message dated 09/10/2004 17:43:28 GMT Standard Time, SCJoniGuy writes: > Hey there Jacky - I read an article about this guy, and what struck me as > pretty amazing about this fellow was that while he invented the machine he had > no interest in patenting it - he just put it out there for people to enjoy > without concern of making money. Truly an inspiration! > Hi Bob, I didn't know that or anything else about the guy but it pleases me to hear that. Did someone else patent the idea? It's reminding me of the excellent film "Lost in Translation" - have you seen it? Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 16:03:24 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC Debra wrote: > And exactly who are those people? Or am I supposed to come up with the > same group you have in mind, and then come up with a group response? > That's unclear enough to be meaningless. I'm not doing it that way. It's > too confusing. The fact that you don't even acknowledge that others with opposing viewpoints have been jumped on and slammed here says a lot. > For the moment, I'm keeping it personal, Kakki, because you, > specifically you, are coming across as aggrieved that no one pays > attention to all the info you post, all those "facts" meant to prove > whatever point you're making. I am not aggreived but what answering Lori's post about what why people here voting for Bush were supporting him. I think my answer was on point. I'm not the only one who has brought up the lack of civility and attacks on opposing viewpoints around here. There rarely seems to be a civil discussion when points are brought up from the other side. If people were interested in a thoughtful exchange, they would consider other input. Your side often seems blind to the insults hurled here at the other side. I guess that is because you think you are so right about everything that incendiary comments are just righteous anger. Whatever - it doesn't facilitate a reasoned debate. > That's fine and appreciated. Problem is, as I see it, the only facts > you're willing to pay any attention to are the ones you've chosen to > prove your point. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I rarely if ever initiate these political disucssions. I don't independently throw out some bomb that no one else has brought up and then fight people over it. I feel that I am always *responding* to other points already brought up. In responding I counter with opposing points. I came here to talk about music not politics, but when I am bombarded with political messages almost every time I read the list, it's hard sometimes to just swallow everything that is thrown out without comment. To expect people to just take it is very oppressive. >All other information is ignored. According to you, > whatever the rest of us say is worthless because we don't read enough or > we all think alike or want to see everything negatively. If I thought it was really worthless, I wouldn't respond at all. >Your attitude toward people who don't agree you is extremely insulting, nicely said, > cleverly hidden, but still insulting. Why throw out stuff that is meant to attack other peoples' political beliefs and then feel insulted if they challenge you? >And you wonder why you get such > negative reactions sometimes? I don't think I've ever said I wonder about the negative reactions. I am responding to already negative remarks put out there so I know going in it's not going to make me popular. That free speech gene just kinks in sometimes. > > ... But I've come to see that some people want to and > > need to believe the stories no matter what and I agree that facts are not > > what they want to hear and it only frustrates them. > > You're speaking of yourself here, yes? No - you give me real facts and I will embrace them. I see opinions, conjecture, theories, feelings put forth and that's what makes me frustrated. > It's making more sense to me now that you would be a Bush supporter. The > way you treat other people's views is similar to the way Bush is > unwilling to hear anything that doesn't fit what he's already decided. > So being a Bush supporter may not have anything to do with Iraq or other > issues, and has everything to do with a similarity in general attitude. > Or, to say it another way, you (and other Bush supporters) and Bush > think the same way. You are free to psychoanalyze all you want. I will admit to doing the same in trying to figure people's thinking patterns, too. I think, however, that is a less than ideal way to understand people and tends to lead more to insult rather than enlightenment. > Maybe, to all of that. It's an intriguing mystery to me why anyone would > support Bush in spite of the evidence that he doesn't deserve such > support. So a general, and mostly unconscious, "we think alike" > relationship may be part of why people support Bush (or any politician) > even if they disagree with some of their actions (although from what I > can see, most Republicans don't disagree with anything Bush does, which > seems very strange to me; I was often angry at some of the things > Clinton did, but I've always liked him and would vote for him again > without pausing if that was possible, and most Republicans would be > horrifyingly mystified by that). I think most Republicans have come to the realization that Clinton is well-loved by his supporters and that he is considered to be above any criticism. That's fine and equally done by Republicans for some of their political figures. On the other hand, Clinton was not just the president for his supporters, he was the president for all citizens. Those who disagreed with him had the right to do so, just as the Bush opposers do. > Jeez Louise, another insult from Ms. Superiority. I was sucking in ash > consisting of huge buildings and its contents, including people, on > 9/11, and for months breathing in the smoke from the fire that couldn't > be put out, so Kakki you really don't need to tell me, or anyone, how > serious the threat is. You mean another insult and putdown from Debra. Citing to 9/11 to say you know how serious the threat is is a given. What is discussed afterward? Why is it so difficult to understand that people like me and others think that changing the focus or trying to diminsh the terror threat by saying it is all Bush's fault, a scheme by a cabal of PNACers, an oil industry conspiracy, and the other conspiracies that dominate the discussion in some quarters, indicates to some of us that the focus is really not on the actual terrorist groups who are out to harm us? Why is that so difficult to consider? Why is that considered an insult from me? It is an honest and substantive question. The split is about the WAY that threat has been dealt with. Bush > supporters think invading Iraq makes us safer, anti-Bush people see just > the opposite. That is certainly a no-spin statement and I agree. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #411 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)