From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #409 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, October 8 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 409 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Gov. Jim's cartoon debut (njc) ["Kakki" ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC [colin ] Re: Find Your Own Joni Magical Spell:) [steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle ] Leonard Cohen njc ["Azeem" ] Christine Collister njc (please read, Colin and Lieve!) ["Azeem" ] Re: NJC Re: Joni mention in Reader's Digest NJC/Keb Mo [Em ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short [vince ] Re: Joni Angels ["Patti Parlette" ] Re: Stop the Bleeding NJC ["Sherelle Smith" ] RE: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: [NortheastJonifest] The birthday fairy I am not NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] A new Joni interview in print [Brian Gross ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC [dsk ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC now short [dsk ] Joni in Vanity Fair ["J Harney" ] Re: Joni Angels ["Ron" ] song stuck in head [Em ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC [dsk ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC military info [dsk ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short [vince ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni Angels [mags h ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short ["Kakki" ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC debates [dsk ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC ["Kakki" ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short [colin ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC [tantra_apso ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 00:51:51 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Gov. Jim's cartoon debut (njc) > Hmm. Is this a Grey Davis reference? > > --Smurf > > > "Do you think Grey would look good on me?" > > --Gov. Jim McGreevey Yes, but the name is G-r-a-y, darling. Did you see McGreevey's debut in the latest jibjab cartoon "Good to be in D.C."? Fun and yucks for all sides. LOL http://www.jibjab.com/ I think you are raising his profile these days - heeeeheeee Kakki - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:31:31 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC Kakki wrote: > Colin stated: > > > No WMD's. > > No huge stockpiles found but other bits and pieces found here and there. >And my repeated question - why did the U.N. and the Clinton administration >tell us for 12 years that he did have WMDs? > and heo complied with tthe UN resolutions(unlike other countries we could mention) and had none for quite soem time befire the invasion. Blik kept saying so and wa s ignored. Because they wanted to invade no matter what. > > > No connection with Al Queda. > > No direct connection with Al Queda for 9/11 but numerous connections >throughout the past 10-12 years. Here is a link detailing the connections >from reputable sources. This is only a partial list of connections: > > http://www.archive-news.net/Articles/SH040923.html > Even Cheney admits there was no connection. > > > Nothing to do with 9/11. > which was the excuse given for the invasion. nicely avoided. > > > > So I cannot understand why Iraq was invaded and much less understand why > > it is still an action that is defended. ther eason for doing it don't > > exist. So there must be another reason. > > Bush not only declared a war on Bin Laden and his buddies, he declared war >on terrorism. Saddam was a terrorist and a head of state. > there are many other countries that could be invaded on that basis. > He supported and >financed terrorist groups > just like the USA supported and funded South American groups. And they should NEVER forget that the uSA supported and funded the IRA and this enabled them to bomb us in the UK. >. >He had hundreds of thousands of Iraqis tortured and murdered. > and they are being killed by Americna bombing of residentila areas. But who cares? they are only Arabs.... - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:24 +0100 (BST) From: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder) Subject: Re: Find Your Own Joni Magical Spell:) I really like this too! I have found a Queen Lulu and Patti connection for myself: 'And the queen's in the grove till the end of the year' I also found: 'And he bought her a dishwasher and a coffee percolator' However,I can't see myself feeling any comfort or magic uttering that one so I have decided to change my name to Peta Kowtow so I can have: 'People will tell you where they've gone They'll tell you where to go But till you get there yourself you never really know.' This I know will provide the support I need, Yours Peta (once Anita, always changing the rules so she gets what she wants. Nothing grandiose there then) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:56:42 +0100 From: "Azeem" Subject: Leonard Cohen njc Just listening to Radio 2 (the BBC station which used to be a by-word for all that is naff and MOR - does this mean that Im officially middle-aged, or is it that they really play better music these days??) and Ken Bruce plays Jennifer Warness superb rendition of First We Take Manhattan. This got me wondering whether anyone on the jonilist is also on the Leonard Cohen list; foes the Lennielist have its own Bob Muller, assiduously scouring the world for covers and faithfully compiling them into fris- sorry I mean valuable additions to their CD collection. In a way Id be even more interested in Cohen covers than Joni ones; not because I think hes better, but because even those of us who love him might admit that his voice isnt the most pleasing on the ears, and great singers can really bring something special to his beautiful songs that he cant always bring. Theres even more potential for stark differences between the originals and the covers. Id also take a wild, uneducated guess that more women have covered Cohen songs than men have covered Jonis - though Bob may be able to put me right on the Joni side (what *is* the proportion?). Certainly, Warness album of Cohen songs (Famous Blue Raincoat) is just exquisite, and probably turned a lot of people on to the great man, as it did me. So, there we have it. Ken Bruce is having an 80s day: after Jennie W, it was China Crisis (Wishful Thinking) and then Kid Creole & the Coconuts (Annie Im Not Your Daddy). Azeem in London NP: Joss Stones new single, finally bringing us back up to date - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.770 / Virus Database: 517 - Release Date: 27/09/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:14:00 +0100 From: "Azeem" Subject: Christine Collister njc (please read, Colin and Lieve!) Its been months since Ive mentioned my favourite singer, but I wanted to alert those of us in Blighty that shes on tour at the moment, taking in a good stretch of these parts. The dates are on her website (HYPERLINK "http://ww.christinecollister.com/"http://www.christinecollister.com), but Id like to draw attention to a couple of venues that ring loud jmdl bells: 13 November in Ely and 26 November in Blackheath - do yourselves a favour, dear jonifolk and go and see this truly great singer - and if you do, tell her I sent you :-) you might even get a joni song or two... Azeem in London NP: Roxy Music - Same Old Scene (more 80s) - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.770 / Virus Database: 517 - Release Date: 27/09/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 07:09:25 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Find Your Own Joni Magical Spell:) -- NJC My Israeli (Yum yum! Want a nice job?) friend Nuriel writes: << So, if you wish to find your own magical spell, just think of a Joni lyric that starts with the first letter of your private name and ends with the last letter of your family name - and whenever you feel a bit uncertain, a bit afraid, or if you simply need some good luck, all you have to do is say it 5 times, and your own angel will be there to help you.:) >> Hi. Gov. Jim McGreevey here, using that dumb shit Smurf's account. Ugh! Guys like that make me think I might actually be a STRAIGHT American. Anyway, here are my Joni Magical Spells: Jesus was a beggar, he was rich in grace And Soloman kept his head in all his glory Jaws gnashing at me Each one trying to pull a piece away Just come and talk to me Mr Mystery Just like that black crow flying In a blue sky Just when I think he's foolish and childish And I want him to be manly Jealous lovin'll make you crazy, - --Gov. Jim "Mmph! Hrrrrwalllpph! Prbfkm hhge methnmh!" --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 04:32:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: RE: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short kinda like this?: "Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats Too noble to neglect Deceived me into thinking I had something to protect Good and bad, I define these terms Quite clear, no doubt, somehow. Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." D. - --- jlamadoo@fuse.net wrote: > Okay, I got it that time. I agree. > > Jim > > > > From: "Kate Bennett" > > My viewpoint is this- that a bunch of old greedy men who actively > avoided > > serving their country in a time of war have deceived many of our > young > > people into thinking they are defending our country when all they > are doing > > is invading an oil rich country for the resources that only a few > old greedy > > men profit from... > ===== - ---------- "But Mona Lisa musta had the highway blues You can tell by the way she smiles" Bob D. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 04:38:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: NJC Re: Joni mention in Reader's Digest NJC/Keb Mo - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > NP: Keb Mo, "What's Happening Brother" > Bob! dude, I notice you are listening to Keb Mo, like, ALOT~! Is he really great? Have a heard a cut or 2, but wasn't paying attention too much. The snippets on Amazons.com aren't enough to convince me to buy anything. so......on your recommendation - do I need to pick up some Mr. Keb Mo?? And if so, which CD? thx! :D Em ===== - ---------- "But Mona Lisa musta had the highway blues You can tell by the way she smiles" Bob D. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 14:03:13 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Vote For Change - NJC Hi Richard! Thanks for the report! This same concert is coming to the MCI Center this Momday night at 7 pm. I work for the Washington Wizards and the MCI Center but couldn't tickets. Comp tickets for this one were at a premium. I don't know the right people here so I very seldom get them. Good news for everyone though...I spoke to the person who actually booked the show yesterday and he confirmed that our particular show will be shown in simulcast on the Sundance Channel. I wanted to let everyone know in advance so you can get those VCR and DVD recorders warmed up. Please double check to confirm but I got this from the source here. Happy viewing! Sherelle Richard wrote: " In short, it was freakin' incredible. The GA line mess however, was a freakin' nightmare and I will never do that again. We didn't get in to the pit and the way it was handled by Bruce's security was pathetic. I went into the arena in the worst mood I've been in for years. But all that washed away when the lights went out and Bruce hit the stage. It was his usual amazing show and the crowd just ate it up. I was surprised at how well REM and Bruce meshed because you wouldn't necessarily think that. John Fogerty was perfect and the way his set was in the middle of Bruce's was great. One of the highlights as always was seeing old friends and meeting new ones as people from all over the world came together in Cleveland of all places. From my perspective it was pure heaven. _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:51:04 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short Kakki wrote: > Wrong. > > Cheney - born 1/41. 18 years old in 1959. Student deferments from >serving in the military (which most college students routinely did back >then) and no war going on during the years he was eligible for the draft. > totally wrong. There was viet nam going on when he was eligible and got five deferments to keep from going because he had "other priorities." I try to stay away from political discussions with you Kakki but you are wrong on the basic facts. Cheney managed to stay out of college and enroll just when he would have been drafted, and then get married and have a child just as it suited his draft purposes as well - the marriage and child being after changes in draft policies were being announced and so he got those in while there was still time. Yes, there were others who also got student deferments but he got five to keep from going to a war he supported and has made a life of sending others to do what he himself "had other priorities" and would not do. Clinton got deferments - and he was against the war. Gore and Kerry volunteered. This is not new information. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 14:30:32 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: Re: Joni Angels Smurf wrote: And did you know that line refers to the Canadian penny? I learned that by paying attention during the "Electricity" discussions. I think it was Catherine the Comedian who buzzed in with that answer. - ------ Thanks Smurf, but OF COURSE I knew that! "I told you when I met you" (when I came out of lurkdom) that I was not lurking -- that I was a thoughtful and reflective observer. I paid rapt attention and drank everything in. The whole CASE of you nut cases! ;) Peace, Proud headed Queen Lizzie Patti Penny _________________________________________________________________ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 14:40:54 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding NJC Hi Jim! I think it has to be the same calling that a policeman feels to do what he does. I am always so scared for anyone in a profession where one has to literally put their life on the line. Some people really do have an inner gauge that wants to serve their country or serve humanity. I have a family full of Air Force soldiers and I am an Air Force brat myself. My brothers, nieces and nephews and their spouses (ten in all) joined to create a legacy for my father who is now deceased. He was one of the first black men to join the Air Force. Plus, the Air Force doesn't usually go to the front line in wartime conditions. Of course there are exceptions to everything. My niece just got back from a six month stint in Iraq where she had to leave her toddler son behind and the saddest part of this is that my brother, who is her chief had to send her. He said it was one of the worst things he's ever had to do in his life! My father instilled a sense of duty in all of us I think. Sherelle >>> 10/06/04 10:57PM >>> There's no draft, Kate. No one is forced to enlist anymore. Remember, I'm voting for Kerry but I don't understand your viewpoint. I'll never comprehend why people choose to become soldiers. All the best, Jim _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:04:44 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short > Bush ("W") - despite forged memos and other garbage - served 6 years in the Texas Air Guard as a F-102 fighter pilot. Could have been called up to duty in Vietnam at any time. Asked to go to Vietnam but the F-102 was being retired because it was too dangerous and he didn't have sufficient flight credits in piloting other aircraft. Honorably discharged.< records have long shown how bush specifically asked NOT to go to Vietnam & it is common knowledge among anyone who was around in those days that a national guard duty got you out of vietnam ... imo bush's honorable discharge is as daddy influenced as his ability to get into the national guard's champagne unit... bush was TRAINED (all at huge taxpayers expense) to learn how to fly a plane but never gave back to our country by actually serving afterwards... instead he was grounded when he did not show up for a physical (coincidentally this was when they started drug testing)... he was increasingly becoming a huge embarrassment to his daddy while in texas so was shipped off to alabama (there are interviews with the wife of the man who bush was sent to in Alabama & who was 'looking out after bush' as a favor to bush sr. --- the interview underscores bush's active addiction & irresponsibility during the time he was supposedly working on a campaign there) & then he was awol for about a year from the guard & in spite of a big ransom out there for anyone to come forward & mention they knew bush in alabama when he was supposedly serving, nobody has yet spoken up... there is an interesting article about one of bush's teachers when he was at Harvard (where he went after he was 'honorably' discharged...) that indicates he was still pretty deep into his addiction then... bush's current behavior as just as insane as if he was under the influence because he has not had any visible recovery time & is still living the lie of his unexamined life.. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 15:18:54 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) Now NJC Hi Brenda and thank you! What great news this is! I was really grieved when I first heard this news thinking about how Chaka and her son must have felt. This only makes a good day better! Sherelle Brenda wrote: I don't know if anyone posted this, but all charges against Damien were dropped shortly after. Wrong place at the wrong time. _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:53:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: The birthday fairy I am not NJC But, while we're waiting for the real birthday fairy to get the hell up off that psychoanalytic couch, I will clip on these little 10 cent wings for the purpose of announcing that TODAY is the birthday of the king of great big bear hugs, one who does Joni covers like no other, that loveable Libra Les Ross. Let the celebrations commence. The end Jenny Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:40:05 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] The birthday fairy I am not NJC the lovely Jenny wrote: > TODAY is the birthday of the king of great big bear hugs, one who does Joni > covers like no other, that loveable Libra Les Ross As the say in your native land of Scottland: "Canty feckin' birthday" Raise your glass (and kilt), and celebrate! xoxo Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:18:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: A new Joni interview in print http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/columnists/ny-a3998031oct08,0,4593475.column?coll=ny-entertainment-columnists As reported in Liz Smith's column: "AMONG THE MANY PLEASURES in Vanity Fair's music issue - Elvis Costello interviewing Joni Mitchell, John Mellencamp's list of best protest songs, an introduction by Sting to the photo pictorial - is Lisa Robinson's huge U2 piece. It's called "U2's Unforgettable Fire," and it chronicles Lisa's "20 years backstage" with what many consider the greatest band ever. Certainly the most committed to world humanitarian causes. Great stuff." Has anyone read it yet?? Wishing you *all* peace, love, and understanding. Brian np: npr (Where Tom Waits will be Terry Gross' guest on today's Fresh Air) ===== Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got till it's gone --Roberta Joan Anderson, who never lies _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 13:56:00 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > > Also, in my view, you have understated the number of US dead in this war by a > few thousand or so. Yes, I do believe we are in Iraq because of 9/11; I would > believe that regardless of whether I agreed or disagreed with our decision to > have gone there. Moreover, I do not believe that the numbers could have > remained at 3000 dead and 0 injured for long had we not decided to take military > action sooner rather than later (or even never). Military action against the person who masterminded the killing of those 3000 WAS taken, and I fully supported the war in Afghanistan. That made sense to me and, although I can admire the ideals of pacifists who disagreed with taking military action in Afghanistan, I'm not one of them. What did not at the time make sense and never has, no matter what current rationales are given by this administration, is to remove most of the troops from Afghanistan and use them to invade Iraq. After 12 years of sanctions (imperfect, yes, but still in place) and flyovers and bombing of Iraq, why in the world would anyone assume Saddam was an imminent threat to the U.S.? The fact that Saddam *wanted* to be a threat didn't make it so. It's an empty phrase for Bush to keep saying the world is better off without Saddam Hussein in power. It's one of those sounds good, but doesn't mean anything slogans the Bushies keep repeating. The world WOULD BE SAFER if Osama had not been given these past three years to inspire his followers and come up with some more deadly plans. If Osama was caught today, it wouldn't matter much. He's had those three extra years, courtesy of the Bushies. Why would Bush think the warlords or Pakistanis would do the work of capturing bin Laden when most of them support al Qaeda? Once again, oops, somebody else's fault that things didn't work out well. The Bushies get by on lots of "oops." I call their behavior either outright lying or complete incompetence. Either way we're all stuck with the deadly consequences. And to talk now about all the terrorists in Iraq as though that's why we invaded Iraq, well, yeah, active terrorists are there NOW. They weren't there before the invasion, but, of course, the Bushies are trying to give the impression they were. When I think of all the people dying and being wounded and an entire country destroyed because of the Bushies' lying and manipulation, I'm both heartbroken and furious. > This, it seems clear to almost > everyone, will be a long term affair. Whichever road we take, we will never > know for sure whether a different path would have proved more successful or less > - which means that second guessers can have a field day regardless, if they > choose to do so. Yes to the long-term affair part. But people's opinions are not ALL just second guesses or based on hindsight. The Bushies had planned to "fix" the Middle East (to their liking) for a long time. 9/11 was just an excuse for putting those plans into action. And they did it by lying. The Bushies have self-righteously said for a long time that all the people in Congress who voted for the resolution supporting Bush looked at the same intelligence he had, but we learn now that is NOT TRUE. The Bushies withheld, even from Congress, any info that didn't fit their plans. One example is finding out now that the Bushies were given pre-invasion reports by the Energy Department and CIA saying that the metal tubes Iraq had purchased were NOT suitable for nuclear weapons. The Bushies didn't let that info out, and just last Sunday Condoleeza Rice was on tv saying again, still!, that those metal tubes were part of the proof that Saddam was building nuclear weapons! She's seems like a very pleasant and intelligent woman, but what a lying weasel she is! (And probably has to be to keep her job.) Another example of outright lying is all the newsclips of Paul Bremer saying, "oh, no, we don't need more troops here," whenever he was asked by the press about that when he was in charge over there, and now we find out from him that he'd been telling the administration all along, many times, that more troops were needed in Iraq. It's coming down to this: People who still believe that invading Iraq was a good thing to do support Bush. People who consider it a mistake do not support Bush. Now that finally more people are learning that Saddam did not attack the U.S. on 9/11 (and it was quite clever, and completely dishonest, of the Bushies to insinuate a strong link for the past few years), more people are seeing the situation clearly, painful as that eye-opening may be. I truly do not understand how anyone can support the decision to invade Iraq, or support this devious, self-serving, lying Bush administration. I can understand how people would not be able to vote for Kerry, but continuing to support Bush even with all the evidence now available of his and his administration's wrongdoing, that really does not make any sense to me. Debra Shea, in NYC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 14:17:58 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC now short Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > > 2. The reason I prefer Bush is that I agree with his position vis a vis > the war on terror, including the decision to move into Iraq (and to see it > through to the best conclusion possible). It's interesting to me that, even though there are plenty of other difficulties in the U.S. these days, people's decision about whether to support Bush are based on Iraq. That wasn't always so clear during this long campaign. > 3. If it is any consolation to you, I strongly disagree with Bush's > position on Social Security, and on the tax rate for upper income wage > earners. Bob, I recall the long-ago discussion about Social Security and your comments about the importance of the "social" aspect of it, so I knew you are not an "agree with everything Bush does" Republican. That's why I was so curious about why you would support Bush in this election. I can appreciate the amount of time it takes to fully explain one's complex thoughts (for me, explaining even simple ones takes a long time sometimes). Thanks very much for what you've shared so far. I still don't understand how you or anyone could support Bush, and you and others probably don't understand how I could not, but seeing another view, respectfully shared, is always interesting. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 18:22:27 +0000 From: "J Harney" Subject: Joni in Vanity Fair I just had a look at an advance copy of Vanity Fair magazine (Nov. 04) with The Music Issue, as a title, appearing in the left-hand column. My heart leapt when my eyes moved down and saw, Elvis Costello Interviews Joni Mitchell, just under The Music Issue title. What a wonderful start to the weekend, and a nice way to honor Joni as her birthday approaches! Someone at Vanity Fair truly appreciates Joni, and my guess is that we can send our "thank yous" to Lisa Robinson, who has contributed a piece about U2 for this issue. Anway, I wanted to get the word out as I am so scooped by my clever, saavy fellow listers. Oh yes, Johnny Depp is on the VF cover. Cheers, Jack - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Find the music you love on MSN Music. Start downloading now! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 20:29:18 +0200 From: "Ron" Subject: Re: Joni Angels hi woo hoo - i must be the *only* person with my own name in the line: "Ron had a car" ron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:53:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: song stuck in head bad enough to get a line from a song stuck in your head all day, right? But whats worse, (than this long time curse hurts) is when you can't sing the line for nuthin'! and you try and try, surrepticiously (sp?), but nevertheless out-loud, in various places and it sounds like crappola and its just plain WRONG! LOL!!!!!!!!! cuz I've been doing "we don't need no piece of paper from the city hall, keeping us tied and truh-ooh-ooh" all friggen' day and haven't gotten it right once! It does help tho - to be able to laugh at one's self. Happy Friday! :) em < Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC Kakki wrote in response to Lori's question: > > > ...I am curious about any Bush supporter's reasons for voting for him. > > Especially since a vote for Bush is a vote for his entire package of > > war hawks and PNAC cronies. > > > > Any Bush supporter care to respond? > > With all respect, are you kidding? A few have put forth their opinions > and viewpoints here for years now and have been met with, if,not outright > attack, a solid brick wall. Some people do get responses, now and in years past. If you've faced a solid brick wall, from my viewpoint that's because your attitude in recent years (while the Repubs have been in charge) is that you always have FACTS and anyone who disagrees with you always has mere opinion or, to use your favorite dismissal word, SPIN. Plus, I don't recall you ever saying anything, not even one little thing, that did not match what the Repubs were saying. It is, of course, your right to do that, but since that's the case, why would I (or anyone) bother to respond to whatever you say about politics? > No one reads the back-up put forth, or if they > do, it is ignored or the subject changed. What is it with Republicans that they think it's an effective discussion technique to just throw out huge amounts of info (as though it's all completely objective stuff) and then expect people to wade through it all and come up with the same conclusions they have? I've seen other Republicans use the same ineffective tactic. It was even mentioned by a tv commentator (although I forgot now the specific example he gave). We're discussing here, and that means sharing whatever conclusions we've come to, and having them agreed with, stretched out, disagreed with... whatever may happen, and if someone asks where that person's info came from, then's the time to share it (or dig it up if can be found). What's fascinating to me about discussing anything is how people can start from the same set of facts and come up with different conclusions. It's not the facts people usually argue about, it's how we distill those facts based on our own experience, personality, emotions, intelligence... a lot goes into the mix. So throwing out huge amounts of supposedly objective facts... why? And in any discussion about anything, instant dismissal of other people's views is a certain conversation breaker. All of that is to say, Kakki, that I don't think it's your *Republican* views that have kept people from wanting to talk about politics with you. > In my simple mind - why did Bush not dazzle everyone in the first debate? > He'd spent that day traveling around Florida meeting with hurricane victims > and was exhausted. Oh, goodness, the excuses that are made for that guy! So Bush didn't plan his time well, and that's okay, huh? Gosh, the guy really can do no wrong with you! I really like Clinton, but I and even his most ardent supporters disagreed with him about some things. And yet so many Republicans support Bush no matter what he does as though he's perfection itself. That is so weird to me that I then come up with the notion that the Repubs have sucked out people's brains and replaced them with robot wiring, which I'll admit is a completely wacko idea, but the only one that fits what I see. > Add to that the almost 4 years of some of the most > vitriolic and vicious bashing of a president in history, Really? Repubs are still talking about Clinton's lie and blaming him for the current lousy economy. Unlike Clinton, Bush gets whatever he wants because he has a Republican Congress backing up whatever destructive thing he wants to do. How about if Bush had a special prosecutor on his tail for years?! People's feelings about Bush don't come anywhere near the way Clinton was treated, and the negative feelings toward Bush are based on what he has done. In contrast to that, the Repubs were dogging Clinton even before he got into office. > and I'd be a bit > peavish and exhausted by all the hate, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, excuses excuses. Problem is, what Bush does is going to effect you, too. Debra Shea, in NYC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 15:32:35 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC military info Kakki wrote: > > Cheney - born 1/41. 18 years old in 1959. Student deferments from > serving in the military (which most college students routinely did back > then) and no war going on during the years he was eligible for the draft. I don't completely agree with the "old greedy men" going after oil conclusion, although the Bushies' true motives for invading Iraq are so unclear to me that oil may be part of the reason, but separate from that, I don't think ignoring clear-cut facts is the way to counter the argument. from http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=37717 DICK CHENEY - HAD OTHER PRIORITIES CHENEY RECEIVED FIVE DEFERMENTS. Dick Cheney had four student deferments, despite dropping out of college twice, and one for having his first child. In 1967, Cheney was 26 and no longer eligible for the draft. Cheney once stated that he had "other priorities in the 60's than military service." (Washington Post, 4/30/91, New York Times, 5/1/04) CHENEY'S DEFERMENT CHRONOLOGY RAISES QUESTIONS. Cheney received five deferments from 1963-1966: four 2-S student deferments and one under the 3-A classification - "registrant with a child or children; or registrant deferred by reason of extreme hardship to dependents." In his Senate confirmation hearing, Cheney said he "would have obviously been happy to serve had I been called," but a look at his activities from the Fall of 1959 until he turned 26 (and thus was ineligible for the draft) in 1967 suggest he may have actively avoided the draft: Fall '59: Cheney entered Yale. 6/14/62: Cheney withdrew from Yale. 1/63: Cheney entered Casper Community College. 8/7/64: Congress approved Tonkin Gulf Resolution. 5/19/65: Cheney received his B.A. after six years of study at three colleges, Cheney received 1-A draft classification -- meaning he was "available for military service." 7/28/65: President Johnson announced draft calls would be doubled. 10/26/65: Selective Service lifted ban against drafting childless married men. 1/19/66: Cheney applied for 3-A status; Lynne was roughly 10 weeks pregnant. 7/28/66: Cheney's daughter Elizabeth was born -- nine months and two days after the ban on drafting childless married men was lifted. (Washington Post, 4/3/91) > Powell - record speaks for itself. (two wars) Interesting, isn't it, that the career military man, who'd been in the position of sending men into battle (as opposed to being a flight instructor), was the one administration person who did not think invading Iraq was a good idea? > Bush ("W") - despite forged memos and other garbage - served 6 years in > the Texas Air Guard as a F-102 fighter pilot. Could have been called up to > duty in Vietnam at any time. Asked to go to Vietnam but the F-102 was being > retired because it was too dangerous and he didn't have sufficient flight > credits in piloting other aircraft. Honorably discharged. Bush "Asked to go to Vietnam?" Are you kidding? He asked to go to Alabama! February 1968: Bush takes an Air Force officers test. Scores in 25th percentile in the pilot aptitude portion. Declares that he does not wish to serve overseas. May 27, 1968: Bush enlists in Texas Air National Guard. Aided by Texas House Speaker Ben Barnes, he jumps over waiting list. He pledges two years of active duty and four years of reserve duty. June 9, 1968: Bush's student deferment expires. Bush on why the Air National Guard took him: "They could sense I would be one of the great pilots of all time." Houston Chronicle, August 1988 September 1968: After basic training, Bush pulls inactive duty to act as gopher on Florida Senator Edward J. Gurney's campaign. November 1968: After Gurney wins, Bush is reactivated and transferred to Georgia. March 1970: Bush gets his wings. June 1970: Joins the Guard's "Champagne Unit," where he flies with sons of Texas' elite. November 7, 1970: Promoted to first lieutenant. Rejected by University of Texas School of Law. January 1971: The Guard begins testing for drugs during physicals. Spring 1971: Hired by Texas agricultural importer, Bush uses F-102 to shuttle tropical plants from Florida. May 26, 1972: Transfers to Alabama Guard unit so he can work on Senator William Blount's reelection campaign. According to his commanding officer, Bush never shows up for duty while in Alabama, nor can anyone confirm he ever serves in the Guard again. August 1972: Bush is grounded for missing a mandatory physical. November 1972: Bush returns to Houston, but never reports for Guard duty. October 1, 1973: The Air National Guard relieves Bush from commitment eight months early, allowing him to attend Harvard Business School. And, yes, Bush does get an honorable discharge, even though he'd signed an agreement that he'd be sent to Vietnam for two years if he did not fulfill his six-year duties with the National Guard. Funny how the Repubs cling to the "truth" of that honorable discharge, but don't trust the military papers that Kerry was given regarding his actions in Vietnam. Debra Shea > > From: "Kate Bennett" > > My viewpoint is this- that a bunch of old greedy men who actively > > avoided serving their country in a time of war ... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:03:46 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short Vince wrote: > totally wrong. > > There was viet nam going on when he was eligible and got five deferments > to keep from going because he had "other priorities." > > I try to stay away from political discussions with you Kakki but you are > wrong on the basic facts. I actually recall the late 50s and while we may have had some "advisors" in Vietnam and the French were fighting the communists, we did not really enter it as a "war" and started sending battaltions of military troops there until around the mid 60s. This is my distinct recollection. I also had family friends and relatives who were draftees into the military in the late 50s and early 60s and none of them ever served in Vietnam. I also knew people who routinely received deferments for college and marriage and this was not considered "avoiding service" back then. One also had to keep up a certain grade point average (I think it was a "B") to keep one's deferment. I don't know what other facts you are thinking about. Kakki - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 16:18:48 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short Kakki wrote: > Vince wrote: > > > totally wrong. > > > > There was viet nam going on when he was eligible and got five deferments > > to keep from going because he had "other priorities." > > > > I try to stay away from political discussions with you Kakki but you are > > wrong on the basic facts. > > I actually recall the late 50s > so I do, Kakki, so do I. > and while we may have had some "advisors" >in Vietnam and the French were fighting the communists, we did not really >enter it as a "war" and started sending battaltions of military troops there >until around the mid 60s. > Which is when Cheney who had dropped out of school re enrolled to get his deferments. >I don't know what other facts you are thinking about. > Of that I have no doubt. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:13:55 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short Kate, I have read all of this before and I have also read debunking of most, if not all of it, by a diverse number of people in the military, air guard and national guard who actually know the facts and circumstances. It's all a big myth carefully concocted and repeated again and again by those who oppose him. Some parts of this story have been around for years and were dredged up when he ran for TX governor. They were all debunked back then over and over, too. I don't know why some people want to continue to beat this dead horse. It really makes them look very misinformed. Do you know that Kerry also joined the Naval Reserve for 6 years as a way to avoid going to Vietnam? If you signed on for more years, sometimes you got a break on call up. Kerry also sought deferments and was denied - that's why he chose to take one of the "better" routes when enlisting. I also had two friends who went the reserve route to try to avoid being sent to Vietnam. In the end they were both called up to active duty but in Hawaii and Guam rather than Vietnam. Kakki - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:15:01 -0700 (PDT) From: mags h Subject: Re: Joni Angels I found a lovely one.... Magnolias hopeful in her auburn hair from Shades of Scarlett Conquering...one of my very favourite songs.... a song I havent heard in a long while Mag(nolia) Ron wrote: hi woo hoo - i must be the *only* person with my own name in the line: "Ron had a car" ron let us just be side by side, helping, respecting and understanding each other, in common effort to serve humankind. ~Dalai Lama~ Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:27:42 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short I wrote: > > and while we may have had some "advisors" > >in Vietnam and the French were fighting the communists, we did not really > >enter it as a "war" and started sending battaltions of military troops there > >until around the mid 60s. Vince wrote: > Which is when Cheney who had dropped out of school re enrolled to get > his deferments. Not according to the non-biased portions of the Cheney chronology just posted by Debra which basically shows he entered college in 1959 and received his B.A. in 1965. Kakki - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 16:43:15 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC debates Lori Fye wrote: > > I will say this, although I dislike doing so: imo, Cheney won tonight's debate. > I actually have more respect for him now. Too bad for the adminstration that > Cheney isn't running for the top spot, but good for them that he's on the > ticket. Cheney *is* intimidating, with his "don't even THINK about questioning me" attitude. His debating style made me wonder if he's an oldest child. If so, I can relate. Such certainty works well when siblings are 10-14 years younger; not so well when everyone's grown up. It's a side interest of mine to figure out a person's "birth order" based on their behavior as an adult. It's very hard to change what one learned so early on (although my siblings are "helping" me with making that change; well, insisting on it really). So, intimidating, yes. But Cheney said some things that made my mouth drop open, so I wouldn't say he won that debate. One statement was that he'd never suggested a link between Saddam and 9/11. Whoa! The other was the way he answered Edwards' charges re: Halliburton with an attack on Edwards' attendance in the Senate, as though Cheney was there every Tuesday all day long no matter what (he's such a good boy). Hmmm. Hard to believe, considering all the campaigning he (and Bush, Kerry and Edwards) have been doing for the past two years. Turns out Cheney zips in for a quick lunch meeting with the Republicans where they discuss election strategy. Cheney probably has not met a lot of the Democratic Senators. It's always interesting to see them, and Kerry and Bush, hash things out. Much better than just getting info from ads and sound bites or tv commentators. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:46:21 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC I wrote: > > With all respect, are you kidding? A few have put forth their opinions > > and viewpoints here for years now and have been met with, if,not outright > > attack, a solid brick wall. Debra wrote: > Some people do get responses, now and in years past. If you've faced a > solid brick wall, from my viewpoint that's because your attitude in > recent years (while the Repubs have been in charge) is that you always > have FACTS and anyone who disagrees with you always has mere opinion or, > to use your favorite dismissal word, SPIN. Plus, I don't recall you ever > saying anything, not even one little thing, that did not match what the > Repubs were saying. It is, of course, your right to do that, but since > that's the case, why would I (or anyone) bother to respond to whatever > you say about politics? You are proving my point throughout this reply and the rest, Debra. Note that I originally spoke of people, plural, who have been attacked here, but you bring it back to focus on me personally. I have actually seen people who have said a lot less than me here receive worse attacks than me right out the gate. It's like some people here want to nip any opposition to their viewpoint right in the bud. When I see items being propagated that have been pretty soundly debunked, I put up the facts. In my mind, I would think people should be glad that some of the horrible things they are being told are not true so they won't think all in the world is always terrible and corrupt. Plus, once a bad myth is debunked, it should ideally free up peoples' time to go after finding real wrongdoings. But I've come to see that some people want to and need to believe the stories no matter what and I agree that facts are not what they want to hear and it only frustrates them. >And yet so many Republicans support Bush no matter what he does as though he's perfection itself. > That is so weird to me that I then come up with the notion that the > Repubs have sucked out people's brains and replaced them with robot > wiring, which I'll admit is a completely wacko idea, but the only one > that fits what I see. I don't know of any, and have not read of any Republicans, who think Bush is perfection. One of the reasons the 2000 election was so close was because of apathy with his candidacy. What may be true of a lot of Republicans, and some Democrats, too, is that they are pretty well focused on a single issue today - the war on terrorism. I tend to think the split between those who support Bush and those who oppose him really comes down to how seriously one believes the threat is. Those who feel from the depths of their being that we truly are in danger want to support Bush over the alternative choice. Those who feel the whole threat is exaggerated and concocted for a hidden agenda(s) will hate his guts and want him removed. Those who feel the threat is real and see the daily attacks on Bush and the attempts to diminish the threat or make the threat into something else (oil, Halliburton, draft dodging, etc.) are terrified of the future consequences of playing politics with the reality that we believe confronts us more than we know. Kakki - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 21:48:42 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC, short I had no idea Vince and Kakki were so mucn older than I.......(or is it me?) - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 21:59:59 +0100 From: tantra_apso Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC Kakki wrote: > But I've come to see that some people want to and >need to believe the stories no matter what and I agree that facts are not >what they want to hear and it only frustrates them. > > > what you fail is to see is that this how so many of us view you and the other Bushies. That despite all the evidence, despite what has transipred in Iraq, despite the increase in terrorism, depsite the lies, you still believe him and support him. Your frustration shows very clearly when people don't believe what you write. It is like the guy who founded, i don't know if he still owns, The Hard Rock Cafe. He is a Sai Baba devotee. Many people have accused Sai Baba of crimes, abusing young boys amongst the. This Hard rock carfe man said ' yes, I know he, but I am still and always be a dovette. he is god'. He and Bushies have a lot in common it seems to me and it outrages me because I believe these people are being dishonest. They don't wnat to face any truth at all but belive inf aory tales. The same goes for Blair and the Blairites. I pray that Bush doesn't win the next election or that someone takes him out. If he wins and survives we are all well and truly stuffed. (yes, you did read me right. I do believe it is ethical to kill if by doing so you save the lives of millions. it is the only case I can think of where killing is justified.) - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #409 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)