From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #406 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, October 7 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 406 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Find Your Own Joni Magical Spell:) [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: [NortheastJonifest] Future Jonifests [hell ] Re: Aliens, njc [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: For the Roses is better than Blue -- NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Big Bang njc ["Azeem" ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC [Dflahm@aol.com] [NortheastJonifest] Re: Future Jonifests ["Donna Binkley" ] Waterbug "Anti theft" anthology NJC [Deb Messling ] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: NJC Vote For Change - NJC ["Music Is Special" ] Re: For the Roses is better than Blue -- NJC [Michael Paz ] Re: Science vs Religion, njc [] Would someone please check on Wally K? njc [] Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC [Bobsart48@aol.com] Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Stop the Bleeding - NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Today's Library Links: October 7 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: [NortheastJonifest] Future Jonifests ["mackoliver" Subject: Find Your Own Joni Magical Spell:) Hello friends, You may remember me telling you once that there was a period in my life when i became religious. (It's over, don't worry, but i still have some faith left in me). Anyway, on my first day at the Yeshiva, one of the first things the Rabbi did, was to ask me to find a sentence from the Bible that starts with the first letter of my private name and ends with the last letter of my family name. (meaning, a sentence that starts with N and ends with S). He then explained that in the daily morning prayer there's a place where everyone needs to say "his own" sentence 5 times, and by doing so, he'd be protected from Evil, from anyone harming him, and, as he said it, "It would create your own daily angel who'd be protecting you". (This thing is called a "bar", same as in music notes) So it crossed my mind, that Joni's lyrics would be even better than the Bible, and surely a magical spell coming from Joni's lyrics would reach the highest levels. For example - Catherine's magical spell could be "Cats come crying to the key", mine may be "Now the way leads to the hills". etc'. So, if you wish to find your own magical spell, just think of a Joni lyric that starts with the first letter of your private name and ends with the last letter of your family name - and whenever you feel a bit uncertain, a bit afraid, or if you simply need some good luck, all you have to do is say it 5 times, and your own angel will be there to help you.:) Yours, Nuriel Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 13:11:06 -0700 (PDT) From: hell Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] Future Jonifests Ashara wrote: > I know there has been a lot of talk around moving Fest > to a different location in the country, specifically > mid-west or west coast. Hmmmm - how far west do you want to go? There's a delightful little country in the Pacific that would make a nice venue?! Just kidding..... > it doesn't pan out for another venue, there is the > possibility of having Fest back at Full Moon around > April of 2006. Since we have already been there > several years, it would be very easy to put this > together, and I would be willing to get back on board > with this since I will have had a good long rest in > between. Also, because it would be off-season, the > price would most likely be considerably less. I'd be happy to go back to Full Moon, but like others, I'd also be happy to have a change of scene - there are a few other places in the US I'd like to see, like New Orleans! Of course I'd like "someone" to give me a bed for a few days around Jonifest in whatever location it is, as I'd want to see the sights while I was there! > For those of you that would even consider going to > another Jonifest, please e-mail me back with the following: > > 1) Do you prefer Jonifest back at Full Moon, or another > place in the country? (Also indicate no preference if > that is the case.) Probably leaning towards another place, but Full Moon would also be fine. Gosh, I'm decisive, aren't I?! > 2) Would you be willing to be in charge of putting > together a Jonifest in another location and making it happen? No - unless everyone wants to sleep in a bus shelter, and not eat for several days. My organisational skills for something on this scale are non-existent! > 3) What are the most important factors in attending > Jonifest for you? (Price, location do you need it to be near?> transportation, etc.) In order of importance: The PEOPLE... The PEOPLE... The PEOPLE! The ability to stay longer than two days (when you spend as much as I do on flights, you want it to be worth your while!) The price Tbe location The facilities The timing And I'd like it to be near NZ, but as that's totally impractical for everyone except me (except maybe those in Australia?), closer to the West Coast is better in terms of cost. Anywhere other than the West Coast makes little difference since the flights are all about the same, ie. $2000+ I'm hoping that I'll be able to make it for a 2006 Jonifest (preferably later in the year, rather than earlier), but next year will be out of the question. Hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 07:03:54 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Aliens, njc Kakki writes: << Gov. Jim (in his former incarnation) reminds me a bit of someone else who used to be a CA governor. >> Hmm. Is this a Grey Davis reference? - --Smurf "Do you think Grey would look good on me?" - --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 07:25:16 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: For the Roses is better than Blue -- NJC Nuriel writes: << p.s. Smurf, what is this? Every time i read those Gov. remarks i laugh so hard i can hardly smoke.:) >> It's my secret plan to save my favorite listers from the ravages of tobacco. - --Smurf, who's coming up on TEN MONTHS of not smoking on Friday ... speaking of which ... QUEEN LULU! I have an old email addy for you. Please write with a new one (or someone please tell me). "Men! You can't live with 'em and you can't put 'em on the state payroll and expect to be able to diddle with them and have the people pay for it." - --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:15:07 +0100 From: "Azeem" Subject: Big Bang njc Just a quick word to say that Sean Rowleys programme on BBC London (94.9FM) today - right now in fact, midday til 3 GMT - will include an interview with someone talking about his new book on: the Big Bang! Might be worth a listen for anyone who has access - if youre not in listening distance, you can listen on the web: HYPERLINK "http://www.bbc.co.uk/london"www.bbc.co.uk/london and follow the links to radio. We may all learn something Azeem in London PS Sean is sitting in for Robert Elms, so dont be put off by thinking its the wrong show - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.770 / Virus Database: 517 - Release Date: 27/09/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:36:58 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC Cheney was in a no-win corner last night; the better he did against Edwards, the more dramatic the contrast with Bush's ineptitude as a thinker. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 10:25:15 -0500 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: [NortheastJonifest] Re: Future Jonifests Jimmy said: how bout a mini jonifest cruise ? :~) DB: Now there's a great idea! Who would be up for one of those musical cruises? Last year I went on a "Texas Singer/Songwriter Cruise." It featured several Texas artists who gave performances 2-3 times during the cruise and we had our own private performance space to do it in. If anyone thinks this would be good, I'll be glad to contact the travel agent who sets those up. db ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:33:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: For the Roses is better than Blue (smoking) Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: Nuriel writes: << p.s. Smurf, what is this? Every time i read those Gov. remarks i laugh so hard i can hardly smoke.:) >> "It's my secret plan to save my favorite listers from the ravages of tobacco." After reading your message, my dear, i suddenly found myself singing: "Smur-fy, Save me, Smur-fy, Save me" - with my mother's voice at the background going ""I think that we should turn the Fight Cancer Org. loose on that little moron of mine and stop that problem!" (I ain't smoking grass! I ain't!) Nuri vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 19:34:01 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: NJC,Political Rally at UConn Help me! I think I'm falling in love again -- with Howard Dean. I just came back from a rally across campus and I am sooooo pumped up for the election (like I really need any more pumping up!). He is campaigning for Jim Sullivan for our 2nd congressional district, who is running against Rob Simmons. What a great speaker! He turned me on -- I'm a radio! Such energy, and conviction, and passion. The kids loved him. Keep on rockin' in the free world, Jonilistas! Get out the vote! Love and peace, Patti, wishing she brought a camera -- me and Howie woulda made a great Christmas card! NPIMH: Peace Train getting louder.... _________________________________________________________________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 18:29:12 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Waterbug "Anti theft" anthology NJC I don't remember who recommended the Waterbug anthology "Anti Theft Device (Election 2004)" but thank you very much! My order finally arrived after being lost in space. I make sure to blast "Bush Must Be Defeated" while I'm crossing the Delaware so the toll collectors can hear the message! I really, really like the song by Jack Hardy, "In Bed with the Enemy." I'm not familiar with Jack Hardy and I'd like to hear more of him. Can anyone recommend anything? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 21:58:54 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC Bob Muller wrote: "As for being civil...with a total of 1202 US dead & 7531 wounded, not to mention the tens of thousands of Iraqis dead, their familes & lives destroyed forever...being civil seems ludicrous to me." When a gentlemen whom I respect as much as Bob Muller tells me that my attempt at being civil seems ludicrous to him, I am sorely tempted to change my foolish ways. But I am so turned off by the demagoguery of those on both sides of the war issue (including those who share my general view on it) that I must continue to risk appearing ludicrous to him. (that was a lame sort of joke, I know, but you might consider that by abandoning your civility, you may be more likely to provoke a similar reaction from the other side - or risk being rejected by the civil undecided among us. Is that a good thing ?). Also, in my view, you have understated the number of US dead in this war by a few thousand or so. Yes, I do believe we are in Iraq because of 9/11; I would believe that regardless of whether I agreed or disagreed with our decision to have gone there. Moreover, I do not believe that the numbers could have remained at 3000 dead and 0 injured for long had we not decided to take military action sooner rather than later (or even never). This, it seems clear to almost everyone, will be a long term affair. Whichever road we take, we will never know for sure whether a different path would have proved more successful or less - - which means that second guessers can have a field day regardless, if they choose to do so. As for the website "JohnKerryIsADouchebagButImVotingForHimAnyway.com", my brief perusal of that site uncovered nothing genuinely critical of Kerry. Rather, the pieces were rather unapologetically dismissive of his failings, claiming them to be essentially nonexistent and the product of his critics' lies. This is in stark contrast to the genuinely critical points raised in the post-debate WSJ op-ed piece I cited two days ago, written by the editor of a liberal magazine (The New Republic). Those looking for a justification for voting for Kerry despite his weaknesses would surely do better reading that op-ed piece and then subscribing to his magazine (which I confess I am tempted to do after reading his article - he will no doubt take plenty of flack from the left for his brave efforts - sort of a la Joni). Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 21:41:01 -0500 From: "Music Is Special" Subject: Re: NJC Vote For Change - NJC In contrast at last nights VFC concert with Dave Matthews very little was said. No movie. Matthews said only one small thing on voting. Each of the other artists only said one thing also. I wonder if the headliner for each group makes a lot of the decisions e ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 22:15:27 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Aliens, njc ONLY, in the dark! Screaming with laughter. (Cat just ran out of the room) Paz > Kakki writes: > > << Gov. Jim (in his former incarnation) reminds me a bit of someone > > else who used to be a CA governor. >> > > > Hmm. Is this a Grey Davis reference? > > --Smurf > > > "Do you think Grey would look good on me?" > > --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 22:16:23 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: For the Roses is better than Blue -- NJC STOP! Yer killing me! Paz > Nuriel writes: > > << p.s. Smurf, what is this? Every time i read those Gov. remarks i laugh so > hard i can hardly smoke.:) >> > > > It's my secret plan to save my favorite listers from the ravages of tobacco. > > --Smurf, who's coming up on TEN MONTHS of not smoking on Friday ... speaking > of which ... QUEEN LULU! I have an old email addy for you. Please write with a > new one (or someone please tell me). > > > "Men! You can't live with 'em and you can't put 'em on the state payroll and > expect to be able to diddle with them and have the people pay for it." > > --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 20:15:59 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Find Your Own Joni Magical Spell:) Nuriel Tobias wrote: So it crossed my mind, that Joni's lyrics would be > even better than the Bible, and surely a magical spell coming from > Joni's lyrics would reach the highest levels. > For example - Catherine's magical spell could be "Cats come crying to > the key", mine may be "Now the way leads to the hills". etc'. > So, if you wish to find your own magical spell, just think of a Joni > lyric that starts with the first letter of your private name and ends > with the last letter of your family name - and whenever you feel a > bit uncertain, a bit afraid, or if you simply need some good luck, > all you have to do is say it 5 times, and your own angel will be > there to help you.:) 'Music comes spilling out into the street' I rather like that! Mark E (Scott) in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 23:57:21 -0400 From: Subject: RE: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC Hi Kate, I remember you advocated forming a human chain around Iraq to keep the American oppressors out. I don't think the take over was justified either but neither candidate says we should just pull out. How could we? Before the fall, they didn't have roadside bombs, or al-Qaeda attacks on police stations. We can't do to the Kurds what we did in Saigon. I think we owe them at least as much safety as they had before we "liberated" them from their own oppressive regime. I'm voting for Kerry because it's the only sensible way I see to send the message that we should reign in our own nationalism. We should not be so arrogant about fixing things; taking over Iraq was wrong to me. Taking over Afghanistan (quietly) was enough for one decade! Lord knows Afghanistan was too much for the former USSR to fix. (BTW, the Afghan elections are this weekend and the UN & US forces are very nervous indeed.) I honestly don't understand how you can let family members enlist themselves to become trained killers, then presume that the military *owes* them a tour of complete safety. Why would you call being a trained killer by that gentle euphemism, someone who "served"? You're a pacifist so why would you glorify killers' service? There's no draft, Kate. No one is forced to enlist anymore. Remember, I'm voting for Kerry but I don't understand your viewpoint. I'll never comprehend why people choose to become soldiers. All the best, Jim >I wonder how many here have someone directly involved in the war, I wonder how many who do are supporters of 'staying the course'. this staying the course will eventually suck in many more of our young kids. am a believer in civility but my civility nerve is badly frayed .> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 0:16:09 -0400 From: Subject: Re: Science vs Religion, njc Yeah, some questions are unanswered. I'm thinking of it this way: the answers we do have (from science) are mind-boggling enough. The universe was so young that Time had not sprung up from nothing yet and there were no protons! What does that mean?! I can't even deal with the first 2 seconds let alone go back further. Jim Catman wrote: >which leaves the same question unanswered......> I wrote: >Before our universe existed, two OTHER universes bumped into each other and the interaction produced a bang.> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 0:19:10 -0400 From: Subject: Would someone please check on Wally K? njc He dreads spring. It's autumn here so it's spring there. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 00:18:57 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Stop the Bleeding - NJC The subject exchange involving Kate and me began with Kate's "after watching the debates it is hard for me to believe that anyone with any critical thinking skills would be able to say bush is their candidate- nobody is home! to me the only explanation would be blind party loyalty or extreme religious belief (the one that tells them bush is there because god put him there)... " I then replied, in relevant part "Well, Kate, Bush is my candidate (not Kate Bush, George Bush) :-) I am not a blind Republican party loyalist (I vote regularly for our Democrat mayor, as do many Republicans in our town, and disagree with the Republican party on about half of the "social" and "economic" issues facing the nation). And, I have not been to church or temple in over 35 years (except out of respect for friends and family, at weddings, christenings, bar/bas mitzvahs, funerals, etc.). I realize that my reply taxes your credulity (if it does not, then I also realize that would imply that you do not believe that I have any critical thinking skills). I prefer to assume the former, for to assume the latter would cause me to feel insulted by your remarks." I believe that my reply very clearly shows that I believed that Kate's initial post was carefully written, that I had read it with care, and replied to it with care. Now, I hardly expect a medal for that. Moreover, I fully expected the care I took to go largely unnoticed. However, I did get a bit miffed when Kate subsequently implied that I needed to read her words again, having misinterpreted them in the first place. In reality, it was Kate who obviously did not read my reply carefully, since she said. "Thirdly, I am sorry if I insulted you but if you read my words again you will see I said bit is hard for me (not be) to believeb&blah blah blahb& I did NOT say that anyone who votes for bush is lacking blah blah blahb& I hope you can see the difference because it is significantb& & yes I still find it hard for me to believe that anyone with critical thinking skills could vote for bush after seeing that debateb& I welcome you to please explain why after watching the debates you have come to the conclusion that he is a better candidate" The problem was and continued to be Kate's use of language, which contained what I considered to be thinly veiled insults - which I called her on, without taking those insults personally. The terms "with any critical thinking skills" and "the only explanation would be blind party loyalty or extreme religious belief (the one that tells them bush is there because god put him there)" are pejorative and inflammatory - quite antisocial, IMO. Because I was miffed, I wrote: "It is quite apparent that you did not take the trouble to read with sufficient critical thought what I had posted, or you would not have replied with your "Thirdly" above. " Kate then replied: "Youbve lost meb& I wrote what I wanted to sayb& Seems like you are angry & taking shots right now." (I was miffed, but was really simply being curt tho accurate, not taking a shot) Then "I chose my words carefully" (I know that, Kate) "& I am sorry you did not understand me" (I did understand you, Kate) "& I am sorry you felt insulted" (I did not feel insulted, Kateb& but, it did take some work on my part, and I think others easily might have been). Finally "you were not in my thoughts when I wrote what I did. I was remarking on my own inability to understand how anyone could support Bush after watching his unscripted performance at the debate. That was the whole point I was trying to make. I seem to be repeating myself in my frustration to try to get my point acrossb& " That is so much more nicely put than your initial statement. Thank you. Now, for my apology. Having dropped off of the regular list because I found the lack of civility extremely vexing, I should surely have simply stuck with that decision and not attempted to urge those whom I had chosen to abandon in this endeavor to change their tone. That was extremely patronizing of me, and especially so since my leaving in effect implies that I really have no standing anymore on this part of the list. For that ill-conceived and completely misguided approach, I sincerely apologize to you, Kate, and the other listers. Finally, as to my reasons for preferring Bush to Kerry, I hope you can appreciate that it would take considerable time and effort for me to reduce to writing my reasons in a manner that would be complete and cogent - that is, in a way that I would feel satisfied with. Since work uses up 12 hours of my day counting the commute, and the time is late, I will not try to do so now. However, in brief, and to give you some idea of where I am coming from without the detailed reasons (and I consider the details pretty important in these complex scenarios): 1. My preference for Bush could, of course, mean that I rather like him and do not like Kerry as a candidate, or that I dislike them both, but dislike Bush less, or that I like them both but like Bush more. In the end, my vote simply represents a preference. 2. The reason I prefer Bush is that I agree with his position vis a vis the war on terror, including the decision to move into Iraq (and to see it through to the best conclusion possible). Moreover, I disagree with Kerry's current stated position on these matters (without regard to whether I think they have changed over time). In a sense, so did John Edwards, but he can no longer say so (indeed, his long-held stance on Iraq was partly why he did not get the Democratic nomination, IMO). I consider this the overriding issue in this campaign, and it trumps all other issues for me. The details of why I agree with Bush's direction on this issue would probably take me hours to adequately express. The reasons why I disagree with Kerry's are partly and very well expressed in the post-debate op-ed WSJ piece (written by the editor of The New Republic, a self-described liberal weekly magazine) that I mentioned previously. I have not found a way to link to that (I gather it takes a subscription), but I would be happy to send you a copy by snail mail, if you send me your address. 3. If it is any consolation to you, I strongly disagree with Bush's position on Social Security, and on the tax rate for upper income wage earners. I agree with the concept that prescription drug coverage should be included as part of Medicare, but that it should be a significant and easy to use coverage (so, I applaud the movement to date, but think there should be more movement). That said, I do not believe that Medicare should necessarily cover medical benefits under a "Cadillac" type of plan. I have some odd, but ultimately middle of the road views (leaning slightly left, IMO) on other "hot button" issues such as abortion, gay rights vs defense of marriage, stem cell research, etc, tho I believe that tort reform is needed to swing the pendulum back toward the center (realizing that it will likely swing too far and will require an offsetting correction at some point) - but none of this really matters much to me by comparison to the main issue. As for Bush himself, he is certainly not articulate in terms of contemporaneous speaking, though he manages better when delivering prepared speeches. That cost him in the first debate, where the half dozen or so good and important points that he made were buried in his inarticulate redundancies. Public debating is a skill rarely called on in the US, and Kerry is clearly superior to Bush in that skill. I do not think Bush is terribly intelligent by comparison with the brightest minds in the country, but he does have a diverse and high quality team working with him, and I try not to confuse eloquence with intelligence, nor intelligence with wisdom, when making my evaluations. Nor do I confuse personality with character. I believe he is basically sincere - I realize you do not share that view. I believe Kerry is also basically sincere (although, like both Clinton's, I do sense that he had his eye on the presidency from college days on, and that the end has been more important to him over time than the means), though I find his campaign strategy badly flawed not only in his position on the key issue (most important) but in his fundamentally negative, antagonistic posture (less important). Finally, as a kicker, I would feel more comfortable in the event of the president's death with the very experienced Cheney as the VP than with the considerably less experienced Edwards, tho for me this merely adds to the margin rather than tipping the scales. I realize I have not addressed the key follow-up question "why ?" to item 2, above, which I assume you were more interested in. Perhaps I will find the time to put it into words this weekend. If I do, I hope it does not merely lead to acrimony. If I do not, please realize that I had (and still have) no real inclination to try to persuade others about the virtue of my opinions in the first place. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 21:31:17 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC >I will say this, although I dislike doing so: imo, Cheney won tonight's debate. I actually have more respect for him now. Too bad for the adminstration that Cheney isn't running for the top spot, but good for them that he's on the ticket.< I heard most of the news sources felt that Edwards won... I don't like to listen to commentary as I like to make up my own mind... I wasn't really sure if their was a clear winner cuz at times each seemed to have an upper hand... cheney is pretty dang intimidating! ... actually HE is the one the frightens me big time & I hope I NEVER have to hear his voice again... after watching last nights debates I believe that he is truly the one with the power & bush is just the pr guy... cheney with his heart problems (in more ways than one) must keep a low profile... he is the brains alright, bush is the personality that some seem to relate to & of course he has the political name... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 22:07:43 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Stop the Bleeding - NJC PC >Hi Kate, I remember you advocated forming a human chain around Iraq to keep the American oppressors out. I don't think the take over was justified either but neither candidate says we should just pull out.< I have never heard of such a thing... I do remember mentioning people who were going into iraq before we attacked to try & stop the war by being there... which I thought was courageous act but I wasn't advocating doing so.. >I'm voting for Kerry because it's the only sensible way I see to send the message that we should reign in our own nationalism. We should not be so arrogant about fixing things; taking over Iraq was wrong to me. Taking over Afghanistan (quietly) was enough for one decade! Lord knows Afghanistan was too much for the former USSR to fix. (BTW, the Afghan elections are this weekend and the UN & US forces are very nervous indeed.)< Hooray for you! It... everything I read before we went into iraq, by people who had lots of experience in the middle east, predicted what now has come to pass... as we all have heard, bush's own father knew it would be a mistake to do what his son has done... but georgie porgie jr has a 'higher' father he listens to... >I honestly don't understand how you can let family members enlist themselves to become trained killers, then presume that the military *owes* them a tour of complete safety. What are you talking about? Letting family enlist? My son in law joined the army years ago- you think he asked my permission? ... joining the service has for a long time been seen as one of the better alternatives for young kids from families with little money... these are kids who have never seen or experienced much of a world at war... Vietnam is ancient history to them & the Gulf War was over in a very short time... they get training & education & they are young & don't really think about the consequences of maybe having to actually be part of a war... if they stay in the service they get to retire early... they get a lot of stuff taken care for them- housing etc... anyway, you've missed my point entirely... I never said the military owes him a safe tour of duty... but our gov't betrayed us all by sending our young service people into a war that had nothing to do with defense of our country & everything to do with commerce... >Why would you call being a trained killer by that gentle euphemism, someone who "served"? You're a pacifist so why would you glorify killers' service? I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about... glorify? I'm talking about the pain of worrying about a family member & his beautiful kids & praying that he makes it through alive & unharmed... I'm a mother & I have great compassion for all the mothers with young kids in iraq... >There's no draft, Kate. No one is forced to enlist anymore. Remember, I'm voting for Kerry but I don't understand your viewpoint. I'll never comprehend why people choose to become soldiers. I don't understand why people join the service either as I think there are other choices... the two who have joined in my family are not soldiers nor did they join up to be a soldier... they've joined to be trained for a good job... one on computers one as an aircraft mechanic... with fewer opportunites for good paying jobs these days available many feel it is their only choice... & the service makes it so easy for them to join... they get all kinds of perks... My viewpoint is this- that a bunch of old greedy men who actively avoided serving their country in a time of war have deceived many of our young people into thinking they are defending our country when all they are doing is invading an oil rich country for the resources that only a few old greedy men profit from... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 22:46:24 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Stop the Bleeding - NJC >The problem was and continued to be Kate's use of language, which contained what I considered to be thinly veiled insults - which I called her on, without taking those insults personally. The terms "with any critical thinking skills" and "the only explanation would be blind party loyalty or extreme religious belief (the one that tells them bush is there because god put him there)" are pejorative and inflammatory - quite antisocial, IMO.< Well we all have our language choices & in such a forum as this with only words on a page it is sometimes difficult to communicate. I agree my words could be taken as pejorative & inflammatory but antisocial? I think that is an exaggeration . I didn't mean to veil my insults but they were not intended towards you . I truly cannot fathom how anyone can support this administration especially after watching bush in the debates. >Seems like you are angry & taking shots right now." (I was miffed, but was really simply being curt tho accurate, not taking a shot) A language barrier again I guess. your description of what you were doing is how I would describe taking a shot. being miffed & curt. >That is so much more nicely put than your initial statement. Thank you. You are welcome, I'm glad I kept trying. >Now, for my apology. Having dropped off of the regular list because I found the lack of civility extremely vexing, I should surely have simply stuck with that decision and not attempted to urge those whom I had chosen to abandon in this endeavor to change their tone. That was extremely patronizing of me, and especially so since my leaving in effect implies that I really have no standing anymore on this part of the list. For that ill-conceived and completely misguided approach, I sincerely apologize to you, Kate, and the other listers. Gosh I don't think you need to apologize for this. the beauty of this list is the free expression allowed. Thanks for your explanation. >As for Bush himself, he is certainly not articulate in terms of contemporaneous speaking, though he manages better when delivering prepared speeches. That cost him in the first debate, where the half dozen or so good and important points that he made were buried in his inarticulate redundancies. The bush we saw without the script is the man without the writers. but he seems to have very little grasp of what is actually going on thus his vague & immature e answers such as 'its hard work' & 'wait a minute let me finish' when nobody was interrupting him! ? >I believe he is basically sincere - I realize you do not share that view. Not true I think he is sincere. I think he also lies & believes his own lies as many addicts (who have not done recovery work from their addictions) do. >I believe Kerry is also basically sincere (although, like both Clinton's, I do sense that he had his eye on the presidency from college days on He could have or he could have just been 'presidential material'. however speaking out against the Vietnam war the way he did was certainly not a political feather in his cap- quite opposite. if he'd wanted the presidency so bad he'd have played it safe. imo. >Finally, as a kicker, I would feel more comfortable in the event of the president's death with the very experienced Cheney as the VP than with the considerably less experienced Edwards, tho for me this merely adds to the margin rather than tipping the scales. I actually think cheney is the real president right now . he is very intelligent in a cold & nasty sort of way . the best portrayal of the prince of darkness was done by al pacino in a movie that I forget the title of right now . cheney does it better than pacino imo. I look forward to reading your thoughts, thanks for the reply ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 02:08:48 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: October 7 On October 7 the following articles were published: 1974: "Time Out" - Chicago Tribune (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=777 2001: "Diana Krall a huge Joni Mitchell fan" - Vancouver Province (Appreciation) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=680 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 01:45:16 -0500 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] Future Jonifests Would love New Orleans as the choice, then I could go as flying has become something I cannot do. Would be the culmination of dreams of meeting you all. mack np: missy, missy, missy ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #406 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)